Fight Hudood, Protect Women

Re: # 95

Is there any punishment for those 4 reputable male witnesses for letting the rape go on?

CORRECTION: In #95

Under Islamic law, and Federal Shariat Court has upheld verdict in many cases in the past - The out of wedlock pregnancy or birth is not a cognizable or prosecutable offence. I regret the error.

Re: # 97

The situation that you describe is improbable but not impossible. For example, in case of Mukhtaran mai case it is possible that more than four reputable witnesses could not have stopped the gang rape of Mukhtaran in public for fear of their own life or potential threat to their own household.

The fouji thugs were careful enough not to let the case registered under hadud ordinance and did not let the case prosecuted under Shariat court in order to save themselves from the embarassment in front of their foreign masters just in case court had given the verdict of stonning to death to perpetrators. The case was prosecuted in a special fuaji supervised Anti-Terrorism Court - WTF. Had the perpetrators of attrocity to Mukhtaran Mai stonned to death no man would have ever dared to rape another woman in pakistan for several decades to come. The munafiqs in in Pakistan who present Mukhtaran Mai as poster child of what is wrong with Pakistan would not approve any method that prevent such attrocities to repeat themselves because if such measures are taken it will only hinder their own little ways of dil pishori.

Re: # 74

Oh so you werent interested in what Islam really has to say, you were merely looking to point out the flaws in pakistan`s mullah interpertation of the shariah and hence reach the conclusion Islam itself must be flawed. My bad. I am not here to defend Pakistani rulers least of all the opportunistc thugs in uniform. I can make an attempt to defend my religion which is Quran and the sunnah of the prophet PBUH. Prerequisite for that dialogue however is that you arrive with an open mind rather than preconcieved notions and despise.

Tahmed Sahib,

Let me attempt to answer your quandary. Everyone, the one’s opposing it as well as the one’s who are for it, both are pandering to their pressure groups. There is immense mistrust between the two parties. If the “enlightened” really cared about women rights they wouldn`t have have widely known and established abusers in their executive councils. I listed Makhdoom Amin Faheem as an example in my earlier post, I can list several more. I agree the situation isn’t any better on the supposed “religious” side either. Now to your question why are religious parties so vehemently against this? For the same reason “enlightened” one’s are for it. Both have extremists in their ranks. MMA always wants to keep this impression that they are safeguarding Islam, however cosmetic and shallow the issue might be. Actually they prefer that kind, because its easier to sell.

PPP on the other hand are the flag barriers of modernity and progressiveness in Pakistan, while marrying their own sisters and daughters to Quran, just to make sure that the ancestral estate remains intact. Do you really think that The wadeyras and jageerdars of PPP in interior sindh treat their women any better? Generally Women are as oppressed in constituencies where PPP gets elected from as they are in MMA’s constituency. Huddod Ordinance is not a divine document, it’s a man made ordinance that was formulated and imposed by military dictator primarily just so he can sell himself as Amirul-momineen. Just because it has Arabic in it doesn’t mean all of it is “Wahi” from Allah swt. My humble opinion is that women in Pakistan are as oppressed today as they were before. You don’t free people from oppression by passing laws that are not going to be implemented anyways, you free them by making them a stake-holder and that’s something that the Army of Pakistan isn’t willing to do because that would mean they would have to share the pie and they are just not used to sharing at this point in time. I have no problem scraping hudood ordinance all together. In humble opinion its a non-issue. There was lewdness, prostitution etc. present in the society while huddood ordinance was in effect. And there will be oppressed women after Hudood Ordinance is history. My problem is clean drinking water, employment, justice, health care and education. Omer (RAW) suspended HUD when there was famine. Are we in any better situation now? I heard a scholar say once that the spirit of “Qatay-Yad” (chopping of the hands for stealing) is that the unemployment must be 0%, only then u can chop off hands of thieves. There must be opportunities available for all who desire to earn a living and then if someone resorts to stealing you can apply hud.

This is all irrelevant however, my personal contention is that let the people of Pakistan decide what and how they want to govern their lives. If we can have free and fair elections then parliament can debate and decide what form of hudood or lack of it, it wants. Its over-simplifying the situation but anything else just doesn’t represent what people of Pakistan wants and that’s what it should be about. But that’s reaching for stars and beyond.

Dear Masadi -

[Issues affecting women, given the numbers, and refer to the miniscuel number out of the over 80 million women in Pakistan, given by the author, are not the Hudood laws but issues like maternal mortality, poverty, lack of health care etc. ]

There is a little problem here. One can only worry about the issues of healthcare, poverty and maternal mortality (should be under healthcare) as long as the women are alive and breathing in fresh air and not behind the bars. Some of the women in hudood cases are penalized for delivering a baby out of wedlock. I guess they should have buried the child or killed him/her and at least be able to raise concerns on the healthcare or poverty issues ??? Does that sound reasonable? I think you are living on some other planet.

Please spare us the constant critique on the West. It`s not because of the West that we have hudood ordinance in Pakistan or killing of a woman leader while she was in public, listening to their issues or gang rapes in Pakistan. Does this society even sound cultured from any angle?

You need to wake up from your repetitive focus on ``elites`` and ``western critique``. I guess it is time for some introspection. Once you conduct that, please do share the results.

Re: # 101

Abu Safwaan, how is stealing in anyway remotely connected to unemployment? It must be some knucklehead moron to have come up with that condition. You shouldn’t listen to that Molvi. His logic is as shallow as a puddle of dog piss.

And this mantra about letting people decide what works for them is also another way of deflecting attention, because Bengalis decided that wanted it their way (good on them), and now if you seriously want people to decide what they want, you will have Republic of Baluchistan yesterday, and Sindhudesh today. One thing most Pakistanis want is to send Islam back to where it came from. Only a handful of Saudi financed mullahs want to make it appear as if every Pakistani wants Islam. Most sensible Pakistanis want to live in peace, and have their religion be as their personal matter, and that’s what they really want.

URSTRULY - you said
``The Hadd punishment comes from Qura`n and Hadith and it is stonning to death of adulterers and 100 lashes for single fornicators``

Please dont EVER say that stoning/lashing is from Qura`n. IQuran does not talk about stoning or lashes. Your Ahadiths might. So your words should be

``The Hadd punishment comes from Hadith and it is stonning to death of adulterers and 100 lashes for single fornicators``

You might be a genius because you listen to all the maulvis and you are probably one, but dont combine Quran and Hadith for this. Your weak ahadith might be talking about 100 lashes and stoning to death. If Quran talks about that then please give references before you start using Quran and Hadith in the same sentence.
This is exactly what the maulvis do that when they dont find anything to support their arguments in Quran they take refuge in Ahadith and then use ``Quran and hadith`` in the same sentence to misguide people in thinking that it is the same thing. It is Not. Quran is the word of God which has never been changed. Ahadith were told by a man (the greatest man ever - but Huzoor PBUH was still a man) which were distorted and changed by people like you and me. If you can say with certainty that Ahadith were never changed like Quran never was, I would believe your blind faith in Ahadith. Until then use ONLY QURAN as a reference when you are trying to make a point. Stop using words ``QURAN/HADITH`` together. Either qoute Quran or qoute Hadith.

Re: # 101

I don`t understand how the PPP are the are the ``flag barriers of modernity and progressiveness in Pakistan``, when it was Daddy Bhutto who set the ball rolling wrt the islamization of Pakistan. Churayl did not do shit to repeal the fascist laws imposed by Zina Owl Hack.

Re: # 103

I don`t know nuthing about anything, one thing i do know is that 100% of Pakistanis believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani was an imposter, liar and a loony-toon and that all mirzais are nagging lil biatches, we are discussin Islam here lil man, i don`t discuss religion and politics with Krishna Mirthuyuiretrafwapulayalan because i dont have respect for people who are moronic enough to bow dow to monkeys and elephants, with the same token i have no ineterest in having a serious conversation with human beings that think that anyone can recieve messages from the Almighty and if you ask them to furnish proof they get irritated, we should just take their word for it! Go sell crazy somewhere else kullooo.

Re: # 105

I said they are ``SUPPOSED`` to be. They are not! thats my point. They are hypocrites just like the religious ones

Re: # 106

I just asked you how is stealing related to unemployment and you get all upset? That`s not nice. Now go and tell your molvi that assuming there is unemployment and the richest man in the town steals, would he have his hands spared because there is unemployment? If that’s the king of logic your Islam is, then shove it up dog’s behind, it is better there than in people’s throats. And yeah, Mirza Sahib was imposter.

Re: # 104


The Light 24:02

``(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. ``

The context (in this chapter and in The Women Ch:4) makes it clear that punishment of 100 stripes at an open public place is reserved for single fornicators.

As far as the punishment for adultery i.e. stonning is concerned, it comes from Mosaic Law from Torah, which Holy Prophet (pbuh) revalidated for his ummah with a little ammendment of establishing strict rules for standard and number of witnesses.

Re: # 104

Hassan Bhai,

I am just curious, and let me say at the outset that weak ahadiths are arent proof for anyone but Hadith is subject that people do PHD`s in from accredated universities. You can`t say with a sweeping statement that ALL Hadith is false or even that there isn`t any Hadith that is from Prophet PBUH without a shadow of doubt. There is an established consensus amongst scholars of all school of thought ahl-e-sunnah wal jammah more commonly known as sunnis as well as shias that the Hadith that are ``SAHI`` are as good as Quran. And the reason is that we didn`t recieve Quran in videotape where prophet Muhammad (PBUH) narrated the whole of Quran himslef. It reached us thru the same companions that we seem to be eager to doubt when it comes to sahi hadith. If Zaid bin sabit (RAW) or Uthman (RAW) were liars and fabricators and they just made up hadith at their whim than how are we sure that they didn`t mess with Quran? Because Quran has a surah that says Allah swt will preserve it? who compiled that Surah? And if they were such evil people, would they not have inserted a surah Quran saying that all hadith is true as well. The logic is flawed if you deny ALL hadith, you are accepting verses of Quran from the same people but when they tell you that Prophet PBUH said that, you have doubts? I am not defending any one particular hadith because i am not educated enough to say which one is sahi-mutafiqun-allayh and which one isnt, i am just talking about a principle here

Re: # 109

Urstruly - This is about fornication. What about rape? Can you also research something on rape from the holy text? On second thoughts, it may have something to do with Eve being the one who led Adam to a different destiny. As a result, it may not be a man`s fault to be involved in a rape. He must have been seduced by the woman to rape her. Ironically, in many cases of this hudood fiasco, women ended up being in a prison. Here, the destiny of Eves led them to disaster. And the men were left to find someone else to seduce. This is an endless cycle. I guess something needs to be done to ``end`` this vicious cycle.

Re: # 109

Truly Sahib, is it true that the Surah 24 was revealed when Ayisha was suspected of having a romantic fling with some young guy?