What is it going to take to have a Clean Bombay?

Re: # 93
Jango
We`ll start with the spit and go downwards from there ....whaddya say.. -)
Remember the old DD cartoon ``Skin in the bin``.

warrierji, in my defense, i was a good bambaiyya but then i did my stint in up where i got introduced to the parallel universe of pan eating (the joda with pili-patti and kali-patti..). now when i go to bambai, i feel more like a bhaiyya than bambaiyya. i heard about the no spitting ordanance which was enacted a few years back and initially i was a little nervous..so on my recent visit, i stood chatting next to a cop doing ``bandobast`` because some VIP was going from airport to mantralay and let out a nice spit (offcourse into a gutter). he seemed oblivious to my spittting..perhaps he was distracted by the gajrewali sitting at the corner.

overall, i am willing to give-up spitting in the spirit of civic support, if bambai has no emmisions, does not smell of raw sewage (as it does these days even in some plush town areas) and has public toilets which dont need a scuba machine to avoid fainting from ammonia...no need to beat me up.

Re: # 91
I do agree with some of your points and so would people who lived in Bombay. I do think people will make a difference slowly. The only issue is that the influx of people who came into the city to earn a living strained the already creaking infrastructure. To use an engineering terminology a step impulse can only be controlled over a exponential time period. Since the influx took most of the seventies and 80`s (immigration started coming down a bit in the ninties) I think we shall take more than that period of time to accomodate things. Perhaps thirty years.

Now you may say that is too long , but it takes what it takes. Our governments are always reactive. Nobody plans for the future and I do believe it is time that development funds should be a percentage of what a city contributes to the centre.

Perhaps the knee jerk reaction against criticism is always directed at somebody who is seen to be a stranger to the city. If a Bombayite criticised the infrastructure it would be less of a problem, perhaps. Not the best thing, but it happens.

But I promise as soon as I find Jang wherever he lives in Mass I`ll read him the riot act for spitting in the gutter, biodegradable spit or not.
In fact I should say I`ll beat the spit out of him, but then he may be bigger than me so I`ll play it safe.

Re: # 89
I remember that story. I agree that you or I cannot find a pucca house for a bai. What I am talking about is the fact that these issues are not important enough for the middle-classes to protest or act on it, simply because they are too busy eking out a living and trying to get ahead. There is nothing wrong with that either, but then we cannot blame the people who work for us for messing up the city just because they exist and when they exist they will urinate and defecate and spit, on the road if there is nowhere else. I am blaming the middle classes on a macro-level. And that goes back to my central premise, that most people just do not care or make it clear that they care, because as I have said earlier and has already happened on this board, if you complain, people will tell you how lucky you are to live in Bombay and of course, if you don`t like it you can leave. That does not solve the issue but does sometimes silence critics. if you are satisfied with your situation, you can never improve.I have heard it all before so it cannot affect me. I hope you see what I am saying.

Re: # 86
I got my seat through an all-India thing...I just got Bombay, could have been Udaipur or Trivandrum for all I cared. I worked long hours for 3 years in a municipal hospital on very low money, because in India junior doctors only get a stipend, not wages. BMC hospitals even so had lower pay than most all across the country. So no, I don`t believe I have taken benefits as you so delicately put it. I thought this would come up, because this response too is typical. It is ridiculous to say I can`t criticise just because I worked there. I believe for instance that India is an incredible country because of several of its characteristics and not just because I lived there. People live in the UK and criticise it all the time, and you know what? That`s what makes it a great country. Learn to look at things dispassionately, it will do us all good.In the meantime, have fun with your spitters and litterers.

Re: # 82
nb
[ the poor actually work for the middle classes and the wealthy. If we want their work, we need to think of where they live as well, don`t you think? I want a bai, but I don`t care where and how she lives, this is the result.]

Not wrong, but not entirely feasible for all. When Bombay was smaller and domestic help was more local it was possible. We don`t live in Bombay anymore but have a flat there still and we know where our bai lives. She has a flat now no longer lives in a chawl. But all help today is not local. People commute from Kandivili to do domestic work in Andheri.

But it is not possible for all to do so. When you get hired for a job unless nobody asks you about the size of your home and accomodation. Mostly all they want is your address. There was an article in some magazine a long time ago about Bombay`s housing problems and they interviewed an Air India purser who lived in Dharavi. Maybe things have improved so that people can live in New Bombay and still commute easily enough to the airport.

If you were to find a good honest person for a bai who lived beside the highway in a hut how would you go about finding a (pucca) ouse for her? It isn`t that easy. For most harried people finding a bai is tough enough.

I believe if travel in Bombay were to become easier and the city itself were to become more distributed things would improve. People would be more willing to settle a little futher away if the city centres became more accessible. But for a long time the politician-builder-criminal (that seems tautological) nexus ensured that there would be no development in New Bombay and links to the main city to get returns on their investment in the western suburbs.

#84
About Delhi I think use of CNG itself has made an improvement in air quality, though being a landlocked city it will still have pollution issues. In Bombay too, most taxis have become CNG and I think something is going to be done about the buses.

I don`t disagree with what you say mostly, I have seen my city degrade over the years but the blame cannot be attributed only to the middle class who live there.

Re: # 78

This will work if the people collecting the fines don`t take bribes. If these guys work like pandus at traffic signals in the city then they may just take 100 rupees and let the person go.

Re: # 86

God.. I can`t believe that I am getting involved in this cat-fight.. 6 years in the city and I am talking like a Shiv Sena spokesperson.

Re: # 81

I would rather have people who do something constructive for the city than those who come and take the benefits from the place and then slam it.

I am glad that the BMC has started this ``you litter or spit-you clean policy.`` This is some common ground for us. Let`s hope it works and we have a cleaner Bombay.

Re: # 74
I don`t agree, but this article is about cleanliness, and I will not go off topic.

Re: # 77
I was impressed with the improvement Delhi has made when it comes to pollution when I last went there 2 years ago. What on earth have they done?It is still polluted but way better than it was 10 years ago.

Re: # 73
If the purpose of Bombay being dirty was to drive me away, it was a wasted effort-I was never going to live there and I never realised I was so important.... :)
Think of how ridiculous your arguments are before you post them...

Re: # 77
the poor actually work for the middle classes and the wealthy. If we want their work, we need to think of where they live as well, don`t you think? I want a bai, but I don`t care where and how she lives, this is the result.

Re: # 73
It drove you away too! I would never have lived there forever anyway, I have a strange attachment to clean air and open spaces. I lived there while I was training. I would have gone back to my hometown anwyay, instead of which I live overseas! I`m sure you`d rather have the sort of people who litter than me?
Your attitude is typical, and this is why Bombay cannot improve, you mount a personal attack on anyone who does not agree with you. Thanks for your responses, you have proven my point.

Muqaddam,

If my house plan needs approval I wud pay the bribe as anybody does to get it approved. Wont you do that? As a matter of principle I wud exhaust all other avenues b4 submiting to the biggie? Btw city`s dirt and muck is the problem not the corruption in the Corporation.

It`s not that the city was short of sweepers but the shortage of will. Honeslty we dont have
enough bins in downtown Bombay. Do we? In the absence of bins people are encouraged to throw rubbish on the roads. It horrifying the people who eat bananas in train &s throw the peels straight on the edge of plaform. I do personally remove them myself whenever I see them coz any guy in a hurry running to catch his train wud slip btw the gap of the train and platform i.e violent death! I learnt these lessons from an anonymous army man in a train. The army man gave a long lecture to the errant pasenger who threw all the orange peels in the train itself.

How do u recycle waste? Of course we cant implement the scientific procedures of Germany but we can use the business acumen of Marawri and Gujarati baniyas to use the gigantic Bombay waste to generate electricity a la the city of London or atleast the city of Hyderabad (Deccan).

A joke: Ur acusation reminds me of my grand dad`s parable of an young man who got angry with the canal and didnt wash his bum after answering nature call. Who`s the loser? Young man or the canal?? ;-)

The posters of #63 and #75 will be the first ones to lay prostate before the local SS biggie if they want a job to be done in the Corporation.

Is it coincidence or mandarins take Chowk seriously? We need to check this and Ajay must be a happy man to see this.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS/The_day_in_pics_March_10/articleshow/msid-1745821,curpg-2.cms

/////FOR A CAUSE: BMC runs a clean drive in Mumbai, where the one who is found littering would be asked to clean it up by his own and would also be fined./////

Re: # 72
nb
You are not a Bombayite so you don`t have to be responsible for the dirt , the beaches and the polluted air (though I daresay Delhi and Bangalore may have worse air than Bombay not because of anything else but the sea breezes). However you cannot blame it on the middle class alone.

It is not the middle class people who are responsible for causing the majority of the dirt. They do not set up illegal huts for the migrants. The compounds of most cooperative societies are clean. Dharavi, the tracks beside the stations is not where the middle class live. They do not defaecate on the footpaths at Napean Sea road.

The project to clean up Bombay might come at a cost though that again some people may not like. Some of us perhaps would like to send the poor to other cities where they can live with dignity and toilets that Bombay cannot provide. But then those cities may not provide the poor the chance of eking out a living.

As long as other cities will not provide a livelihood they will flock to Bombay because it still can, and dirty it because they know no better and do not care.

Don`t even get me started on the leaches we elect as civic officials. The only good chap was Khairnar and the rest of the political creeps couldn`t wait to get him out.

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/net/mmpaper.aspx?Page=article§id=15&contentid=200703090244177835d58ca1

Wonder if this will help!!!!!

Dear Author!

The Shiv Sena is good for nothing. Do you know that for two days before the train blasts their goondas held the city to ransom because someone desecrated Thackerey`s wife`s statue? The police attention was totally on them when the terrorists were planting the bombs.

My alternative is that localities have their own waste-management set-up and ignore the BMC.

I am from Calcutta and have been living in Bombay for the last 6 years. My observation is that Bombay is much cleaner on average than it was a few years back. There is a growing number of well-kept pockets in the city. Like someone said, the mallwala-politican nexus is also helping the city get cleaner.

I agree with the author about the littering culture of the middle class. A new motorcycle TV ad shows someone tearing up a letter (meant to be sent to America) and throwing the pieces of the paper on the road. Such behaviour is condoned.

Re: Toilets

People from villages that defecate in open air will do the same in Bombay. We are talking about penniless migrants with no education. The city is a magnet to such types. As long as Bombay is a money centre you will get such migrants.

NB

I prefer the spirit, hard-working nature and sense of fairness that Bombay has to the utopia that many people think they have in Calcutta.

Re: # 72

Thank You NB

You have helped me see the silver lining in the cloud. At least the filth drove away people like you from Bombay. The city is all the better for it.

Re: # 69
That`s right, get angry because I don`t agree with you! You have written a very ordinary article and not come up with any real ideas yourself, except setting fascists on the general population, which reveals your thinking. What other solutions have been suggested here? I can`t see any. I think the problem is with a lack of civic pride and a complete lack of accomodation for the poor. I don`t think there`s money in that, so no one will fix it, because the middle classes really don`t care. I have not stated I am incapable of thinking, just that I do not agree with you. You have accused me of being envious and turned the argument personal. I do not miss the dirty roads and beaches and polluted air; perhaps you do. If Bombay was worth envying, you would live there yourself.

dear NB, the jhuggis outside mahim station are GONE in a road-widening operation (on old tulsi-pipe road). these jhuggis were very interesting, they over time were offering various services or men and women and would throw themselves in front of a car and feign injury to extort money. now i suspect walking on that path will be boring i suspect.

Re: # 68

Excellent Post.

Re: # 65

I wrote this article looking for solutions and constructive criticism. You have just stated that you are incapable of thinking of or suggesting both. I guess that`s fine.

Re: # 49
nb

[This is exactly why Bombay never improves-people there still think they have the best deal in the country and therefore they don`t need to improve]

This is your statement.

[No one thinks it shouldn`t improve] is mine. Do you have problems with reading or comprehension?

So you think there is a lack of civic and political will. I agree. Nobody is questioning that. I don`t know which Bombay you lived in but most Bombayites that I know do agree its dirty.

But you don`t seem to read other bits that I posted. It isn`t that easy to do things in a small area with a large population. Migration to cities is never planned in the 3rd world. It happens. And politicians are the last people to worry about planning in India.

You can blame the city and the people who live there as part of the problem and no doubt they are but few people have the energy to go out and do something after travelling and working the better part of the day.

So lets take the issue of toilets for maids etc. Take my area of Ville-Parle. Our maids used to live in a small chawl that had a common set of toilets for the people there. Time went on. In the 70`s there was a whole bunch of rag-pickers who came to the Western Express Highway area and settled there. They didn`t have toilets. They didn`t have jobs except for rag picking. So what did you expect the citizens around there to do. Build toilets for them? Would they do anything with the toilets. Have you lived in villages in India nb? People don`t have toilets there either and they go out into the fields. The ragpickers, construction workers etc come from those villages and all the drains in Bombay are the fields for them. There isn`t anywhere else to go and after some time you lose all sense of shame. To put it crudely ``When you gotta go , you gotta go?``

I cannot comment on the middle classes of other cities but the people in Bombay do not have the time and energy to invest in this because most of them are dead beat when they come home. That is why Calcutta and Delhi do not contribute to the national exchequer the way Bombay does. Perhaps that is why the middle class in those cities have time to build toilets, clean the streets and Oh, I forgot a government that is willing to keep the capital city clean and perhaps a government that made Calcutta the economic powerhouse it is today so that it could pay for its metro.

But the poor middle class in Bombay depend on the people they elect to office , who of course fail them. Even there the middle classes are out voted because there isn`t even enough of them. The poor are far more and they will vote for anybody who pays them money, not for those who will build them toilets.

These are not excuses these are facts. Incidentally where are you going to construct toilets for all the slum dwellers in Bombay? I`m afraid the middle class does not have money to buy the few pieces of land left. Been bought up by the politicians and criminals y`know.

I`m not saying people are not apathetic but Bombay has a large migrant population that couldn`t care less about the city and most of them are poor and some don`t care a great deal about cleanliness.

Did you clean the toilets in the public hospital where you were a doctor? Before or after use? If you did I admire and respect you. If you didn`t then you were part of the problem like the rest of us you talked about, because it wasn`t your job.

some ``cleanup`` of aamchi-mumbai is happening thanks to the builder-mallwalla lobby. i was surprized that i was able to walk comfortably on a sidewalk outside Dadar station. It felt really strange, and i could not put my finger on it. Then i saw this glittering mall in place of an old movie theatre mostly catering to vegetable vendors. Apperently the mall guys brought enough influence-bribes to bear on police and municipal dudes to drive away street-vendors on the sidewalk (or footpath as its called there). there was a private security guard with a walkie-talkie watching out for any vendor attempting to set-shop to inform muscle immediately. mallwallas also keep these guards in night to protect their turf.

the vendors are not completely gone..they mill around now with brochures in their hand enquring..saar, you want trolly bag cheap..much better than the mall sar..american tourister asali maal saar.

then there is some natural adjustment..one hijra bhaiyya was complained of high cost of living in bombay and was conteplating moving to aurangabad.

Re: # 62
I find even that hard because there has been movement between East and West Bengal for thousands of years, and people do not stop just because there is a border. On the other hand, I still believe in passports and visas, and it annoys me that the Left Front encourages illegals for their own gains. Of course Calcutta is dirty, did I ever say it wasn`t? Iron mask, who are you, may I ask?

Re: # 59
Why envy? Or hatred? I don`t like Bombay, but hate is a strong word. I don`t feel that strongly about Bombay. I cannot stand filth, and I will not apologise for that. I don`t have any reason to feel envious!
But this is what I mean, this is typical if there is any criticism of Bombay`s dirt, you immediately attack the person making the criticism and talk about how it is cleaner than every other city in India. It is surprising that you would write an article on Bombay not being clean and then object when other people say the same thing. Before knocking other cities, you probably need to check them out. I don`t see it as my place to find a solution where dozens of civic, state and union governments have failed, because I do not know a way to change the way the people of Bomaby think.

#52 now you are getting real irritating...for the record, i ALWAYS spit my paan in the gutter or nalla. enough with your silly convent-educated discomfort at our national culture and pasttime, or i will get real angry. i argue that your automobile-induced pollution and waste from its old tires is far more hazardous than my perfectly bio-degradable pan-spittle (angry wala icon).

The comparison btw Calcutta and Bombay is not good. Calcutta was the numero uno in pre-47 India but Bombay replaced Calcutta as the magnet of Indian peoples. Calcutta is still a Bengali city whereas Bombay - despite the high-phase of Marathi chavs - is a pan-Indian city. In the meanwhile Pune was developed as San Jose of Bombay which is quiet, feel-good city.

We shud take the influx of migrants as given, including the fortune seeking rural folk who`d like to see the glitter of the megapolis. We cant question that. If we remember even Amitabh Bachchan slept on the footpaths of Marine Drive for days b4 he found someplace to sleep. Like all he too enjoyed the the view of the golden city.

When I last saw Calcutta, it had still the smoke belching 1970-buses on its roads. Taxis are no different; almost run by Biharis. The most shaming relic of the Raj-era is the hand-pulled rickshaws. The footpaths of the downtown Calcutta are swmaped by food-vendors during lucnh hours who sell foods of Bihar, Bengal, North India, Punjabi & Southern all 4 less than Rs. 10! Even people from big offices eat food from footpaths.

We have police in white dress who are very sober (may be my misconception). We have a placard selling shop in Park Street (paying huge rent to sell placards? Unless there`re big bucks they cant maintain a shop in Park Street. So sloganbajee is the major pastime of Calcuttans). We see impropmtu meetings of employee leaders during luch-breaks who talk abt imperialism, Coca Cola and link these things/companies to their plight! The gatherings cud be as low as 4-5 people! We have India Musuem with priceless artefacts with almost no visitors from other parts of India. We see people taking baths on footpaths. They still use Lifebuoy bath soap and use Sunlight for washing clothes (relics of old Indian consumer items). I can see Calcutta as London occupied by subaltern Bengalis and Biharis .

Bombay on the other hand is thriving with Gujarati businessmen contributing seamlessly to the social and business life of the city. (One interactor reeled out the contribution of Bombay to the revenues of India). Marathis and south Indians are good clerks and managers. Whereas Bengalis are very good executives but they have bad clerks. Despite all the shortcomings as a city with many balck spots, Bombay is still the India`s international city.

Intolerance and Shiv Sena spoiled the liberal name of Bombay. Marathi chavs can make it better if they think thet Bombay is the Indian city than it`s a Marathi city. Some years back the snaps of Shiv Sena pricks bashing the Biharis who came to write exams for railway jobs. Shiv Sena was as usual proved to be a kameena kutteys.

Even the mainstream Marathis made a change that`s simple but significant in terms of the outlook. I dont think it`s Shiv Sena behind this. The Bombay police use to have a yellow band on the caps of police. Now it`s replcaed by saffron bands indicating the change of outlook. This change is part of saffronisation of Bombay police. The Marathi backward journey is official. As I said, despite all this, Bombay is still the pan-Indian city.

Re: # 60

Calcutta was a dump, and will remain a dump for a long time to come. Nothing will change.

Yes, whatwill change the city- is if the refugees who turned up post 1971 are sent back packing to their country of origin and let them sort out their political problem there.

1971 was the year when calcutta started going down hill rapidly,IMHO

Re: # 57

Ajay78,

I do agree with NB regarding Calcutta. As mentioned is my previous post, there has
been some effort to clean up the city. Is it still filthy ? Of course it is. But the changes
are visible to the discerning (and perhaps forgiving) eye.

I have been to Bombay only as a visitor, so cannot offer a meaningful comparison. But
Delhi is definitely a cleaner city that both Bombay and Calcutta.

Einsteinwallah #51,

Making Indian railways expensive just to keep people out of Bombay and imposing
internal visa laws are both rather draconian measures. Imposing tougher penalties
and tightening littering laws are both do-able.

Re: # 58
I just saw Einsteinwallah said he left in 1989. I think then he is wrong. I have an aunt in Bhawanipore, so I know. However, if he has not visited for 17 years, and then visits as an NRI, he will see no change, because it is still dirty,but his standards will have changed as a result of having lived away from India for so long. It doesn`t help to jump to Bombay`s defence as you are doing. It is inexcusable that a city that fancies itself as equal to New York, no shining star of cleanliness itself, allows itself to wallow in this filth.

Re: # 58

Try proposing some solutions for Bombay instead of bringing in your hatred and envy. Something constructive would help.

Re: # 57, I`m sorry, I thought the article was about Bombay. I was not aware there was a competition, in which case the whole of India would fail miserably. Calcutta is not cleaner than the late 90s, but it is way cleaner than the 80s. I have no idea when Einsteinwallah left. He did not call me out, as you put it, he gave his own opinions. Howrah station still is and remains filthy, but you don`t even see as many bare bottoms going into Howrah of a morning as you do going into Bombay.
You also don`t see people spitting as much anywhere else, and I really don`t know why.

Re: # 56

NB

I don`t support the system of internal passports or any form of communism, like people in some states of India..

I completely agree that middle-class apathy is a huge problem. Read my posts and you will see that.

You show absolutely zero objectivity when it comes to Calcutta. Einsteinwallah called you out about how the dirty parts of the city remain dirty and you launch a tirade against Bombay in response.

Re: # 55
so it isn`t part of Bombay now? You cannot claim only the parts of Bombay that you like and disown the others. This is just the attitude I`m talking about. I have seen more of South Bombay than a lot of people. And I`m sorry, most of it is still dirty. I also saw this mass defecation in large parts of Santa Cruz. People complain about the ``lower classes`` being dirty, but they cannot live without construction workers and maids-how many of these people have access to clean toilets? Forget about maids actually, in public hospitals as a doctor, I did not have access to clean toilets.
Other cities at least acknowledge it is an issue, I hear people in Calcutta saying it`s dirty but I love it anyway. In Bombay you hear, it`s not dirty, it`s wonderful. And I am not talking about the high profile Shobha Des of the world who participate in ``clean city`; campaigns, I find the middle classes completely uninterested.
I`ll give you some time too to come up with a democratic country that restricts movement to cities and has internal passports.

Re: # 54

So now Dharavi = Bombay.

Re: # 53
I`m sorry but the long line of people defecating with the backs to the train seems almost unique..in other cities people at least try to hide. The streets of Dharavi at 5:30 am are occupied by people squatting in long lines on either side of the road while the rest of the world acts like nothing is happening. When did you see that in Delhi or Calcutta?

I was in Kolkata in Nov 06. I stayed near my old home (near MG Rd metro station). I visited Bhawanipore. I came by train so I saw Howrah Station. None of these places have changed form what they were in 89 when I left Kolkata. I would not say Kolkata is any cleaner than Mumbai.

Internal passport may not be possible but some kind of anti-vagrancy laws should be there. In Mumbai autorickshaws are not permitted south of Bandra. People do not see such restriction as unreasonable. I do not see why anti-vagrancy laws cannot be enacted. Such laws may be already there. May be these needs to applied strictly. Defecating in public places should be punishable by RI.

Re: # 51

What bothers me more is when so-called educated and middle class people litter and trash the city. Such people should get more hrash treatment than Bhaiyyas and Biharis who follow their ``village instincts.``

You cannot have better Mumbai and rest of India stinking. Mumbai`s problem is exactly that. It is part of India. For less than a 1000 Rupees you can come from anywhere in India to Mumbai. India probably needs cheap railways but as long as they are cheap no metropolis can ever be clean. Bhaiyya culture of Paan chabaaoing, spitting, shitting etc is not going to go away. And Bhaiyyas cannot be wished away. Anywhere you go Bhaiyyas are there. My prescription: make Indian Railways expensive, impose city-dweller permit (call it visa or whatever), anyone using any public property (especially the roads) should be made to pay ``rent`` and heavy fine of bad public hygiene. None of these is going to happen. I laugh when people like Vilasrao talk about making Mumbai a Shanghai.

Re: # 48
I dont know.I think we can rank cities on basis of
1) infrastructure
2) weather
3)immigrant friendliness
4)Foodie friendliness
5)employability...presence of big businesses
5)cleanliness
6)greenery
7) nightlife
8)cosmopolitan nature
9)law n order
10) Cost of living
11) proximity to vacation spots
hmm?

Re: # 40
No one thinks it shouldn`t improve. Show me where I said that, or explain yourself. A lot of people think it`s so good, it can`t improve.
It gives me no pleasure that Bombay is so dirty, but I am tired of excuses. This population hasn`t suddenly landed in the last hour, there has been enough time and there is enough money to plan for it.There is a lack of civic and political will. If people are happy to live in muck, why should politicians care?

Re: # 46
Well Rahul my city is not entirely fictional. It depends on you. You can`t go in looking for the best city to live in. It isn`t there. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Depends on your level of comfort.

Re: # 38

NB,

Well, the CPM chief minister and the Congress ex-mayor seemingly struck an
alliance to clean the city up. It was good to see them set aside their political
differences to import some structure into the city administration. However, the
new inept CPM mayor and that hysterical idiot Mamta Banerjee will probably
undo whatever little has been done.

Aside - it is beyond ridiculous to see the Bengal chief minister having to fight his
own political party on every single development issue, every goddamn step of
the way.

Re: # 44 You mean this, I guess?

Problem of Bombay is what it is for India ..Population

It is 17.000 people per Sq.Molie compare to 1/6 about 3 K per 17 K square miles in NYC.....

Re: # 43
That is what is called a leading question but I`ll take a stab at it.

I believe it`s called Felicity. It`s really quite felicitous if you can find it, in yourself, in India.

Which is the best city to live In India, regardless of where one is from?

i talked to some folks living in western suburbs who live in so called ``societies``..these are aprtment co-ops or condo associations and they told me some interesting stuff. many of them have their own composting with some kinda worms thereby reducing houshold garbage for collection by the municipality. they use the compost to fertilize their flower beds.

household trash collection in bombay is pretty good in most localities..its outsourced. it works thus..the 4-grade employee with seniority gets about 15000 pm in salary from the municipality, and he in turn apppoints bhaiyya/immigrant for about 2000 rs so that he can be free to do other things.

the juhu and girgaum chowpatty beaches are also kept clean by the BMC sarkar as well as the vendors there. the problem is the ocean water is very polluted by debri and raw sewage.

so bottomline is while bmc being very corrupt n all, it does not controll infrastructure funding (its with the state govt). it has done a good job of provideng water, bus service and trash collection. the ghati and central politicians have screwed bombay big time by not allocating any infrastructure (e.g. railways, sewage) funding commensurate with its size. dilli and hydrabad and culcutta infact did get such funding.

this lack of funding was indeed ackowledges in MM singh

``Perhaps decongestion is the only way one can bring about some form of cleanliness, moving people away from the city and expanding , Vashi, Nerul... etc and constructing better links to the mainland. Otherwise the statistics are mindboggling. 20 million people can generate a lot of garbage. ``

Good Point.

#39
It`s probably true that Bombay is the filthiest city in India now and everybody else is quite happy with that. But then you have to look at things a little more closely. It is the most populous city in India and the smallest in area. At 437.77 km2 it hosts 20 million people. Delhi the next largest in terms of population is 1,483 km2. Calcutta is not even there in terms of population (4.5 million) and is 785 sq km.

If you crowd people together in such a small place you are going to have issues with cleanliness. Blocking immigration doesn`t help much. I think official immigration to Bombay has fallen but all the folks already there are producing kids and they aren`t going anywhere because most of them cannot.

As a kid I travelled to Churchgate often enough on weekdays and after 10 am I could get a seat on a local train from Ville-Parle in the second class(Rs 1.20p return fare). Fat chance of that happening now.

Perhaps decongestion is the only way one can bring about some form of cleanliness, moving people away from the city and expanding , Vashi, Nerul... etc and constructing better links to the mainland. Otherwise the statistics are mindboggling. 20 million people can generate a lot of garbage.

nb, people in Bombay do think they have a good deal. They wouldn`t be coming there otherwise. However few people think that it shouldn`t improve. So don`t make ridiculous remarks. A point, Bombay pays 38% of the countries taxes, processes twice as many cheques per day as Delhi, 14% of national bank deposits, 80% of the mutual funds are registered there, 90% of merchant banking transactions , 92 % of stock market turnover (got this from the Guardian). Bombay contributes something like Rs.382 billion in corporate tax alone from a recent peer review and gets a paltry Rs.977 million rupees for infrastructure development.

Only six idiots get elected from Bombay to the Lok Sabha. That`s going to make a hell of a difference. I hate to be parochial, but we don`t have a pot to piss in because it goes to Delhi and seemingly other places that can build modern metros etc.

It is our fault too in some ways. We`ve destroyed the city, taking part in sectarian politics etc.

Re: # 36
Um, yes. You need to check it out. I find it interesting that you have not been there in years, yet feel qualified to criticise it. This is exactly why Bombay never improves-people there still think they have the best deal in the country and therefore they don`t need to improve. I have visited Calcutta every year for years, and have lived in Bombay, and have seen more of the filth there than most people, because I actually worked briefly at Dharavi Hospital and used to walk there from the Mahim railway station. I lived for some time on Napean Sea Road, and what was incredible was that you had all these billionaires and film stars walking around in Breach Candy but you still had to watch where you stepped.

Re: # 34
Well, yes, it is cleaner. Have you been there lately?

#36 by ajay78

I`d be pleasantly suprised if most of the city is really clean now.

Ajay Yaar, Hyderabad is one of the cleanest cities in India now. The previous government privatized the cleaning and garbage collection throughout the city and now, Hdyerabad looks fantastic. Also, a lot of gardens and parks that were left to waste have been renovated and maintained by the Municipal Corporation. Visit the city and you`ll know.

Devkant

In terms of cleanliness, are you just talking about Esplanade, Park Street, Chowringee and posh residential localities like Bally Gunge? I have a tough time believing that places like Howrah, Dum Dum, Kali Ghat and localities close to the city centre are clean..

I`d be pleasantly suprised if most of the city is really clean now.

``#34 by ajay78 on March 7, 2007 10:50pm PT
Re: # 17

That`s right.. Kolkata is the cleanest metro city in India and its residents have very little tolerance for filth! Give me a break.. ``

Ajay, you may actually be surprised to see how clean calcutta has become. i was shocked beyond words to see calcutta when i last visited there after a gap of more than 10 years. that place has cleaned up beyond everyone`s imagination. no one every thought that cal could be cleaned up, but the people there did it.

the have also implemented very strict noise pollution levels. hence diwali in cal is much more tolerable than in other cities like bombay.

rgds,

devkant.

Re: # 17

That`s right.. Kolkata is the cleanest metro city in India and its residents have very little tolerance for filth! Give me a break..

Re: # 31

Russia still issues internal passports to its citizens. The internal passport is the most important id in the country. It shows in which region the holder is registered. There`s a rule that a Russian citizen (or foreigner) can`t stay in Moscow for more than three days without official registration. Though the rule is unconstitutional, the city authorities insist on it to keep outsiders out. Of course, there are millions of ``illegal`` Russians in the city on fake registrations!

It is impossible to implement such a system in Bombay. Like someone mentioned, many Bangladeshis have ration cards and voter`s ids. We can`t even LEGALLY keep those people out.

Re: # 30

that`s as mainstream as jinnah being a (pork eater) muslim!

norm is diff from exception.

cobra #25

{{Stop rampant immigration of poor and destitute from other parts to come to Mumbai and over burden the limited resources.}}

How do you plan to do this?

Authoritarian Stalinist countries like PRC have a system of residence permits (hukou in China). Former USSR used to have a system of internal passports. Internal migration cannot be disallowed without such a system - which is a non-starter in a democracy, and the will to to enforce it – not evident in India. The Indian setup cannot or will not even prevent illegal Bangladeshi immigrants from migrating to all parts of India and getting ration cards …

Are there market-based mechanisms that could work in the short term and also pass tests of equity? The sure long-term route – if you can figure out a way to do it - is to make life more livable in the places where the migrants come from.

Here is a good example of organic, home grown hygienic activity. Instead of using toxic shampoos and conditioners, the lady uses India`s plentiful bounty for healthy hygienic hair.

Chutif2 has a point..it has to do with individual responsibility and economic status. A guy would walk around the street spitting his paan on the walls of an apartment building but will search out the spitoon or toilet in a 5 star hotel..why? peolpe act accroding to their surroundings. It was the same here in the US, to some degree it still exists. walk around Burnside ave in the bronx or Maryville, tenn...the smell of Urine is overwhelming, garabage littered all over the place. i

payee cobra its like this. apropriations are done for states. bmc does an ok job of sweeping the streets but is unable to embark on infrastructure projects like shit-processing plants for all the new bhaiyyas without proper infra funds. now MMsingh promised some targeted earmarks for shanghaiaification but that is only recent and anyhoo out of grabs for bmc. similarly, the suburban railway sys should be made an autonomous corp out of lallus hands. bombay cannot even widen a simple pedestrian bridge without approval from dilli.

its all for the good of the bhaiyya

#26, Nope. Amchi Mumbai hum kabhi nahin chhodenge. :)

bombay should be made a state (like dilli)..

Give MHADA chance. Demolish all illegal construction, raze slums and convert the sale it to commercial interests and with that income settle the existing residents in new apartment buildings (this offer should one time opportunity and any later illegal construction should be deemed criminal activity) Stop rampant immigration of poor and destitute from other parts to come to Mumbai and over burden the limited resources. This is not an asylum for the homeless it is a functioning city and has its limits.

I think moving railway tracks out of the city might help.

I love filthy Bombay. The martini on the roof top bar is much more agreeable given the damp stink of unadultrated shit. The history of the Taj is much more appreciated when you see a big rat scramble across the lawn. Time is much more appreciated when it takes three hours to make it from Goregaon to Bombay Central, because of a rally in Shivaji park, and you miss the train. Globalization sinks in when your gay friend from Madrid finds a Spanish speaking lover from Dharavi and both of them squat on the streets after a fulfilling night. Pure unbridled capitalism spouts out empirical evidence when on one hand you see a disaster in public services and on the other hear Mohan Majhi, the guy who delivers your groceries on a bike, talk about his future prospects on his motorolla cell phone. You see your values crumble when the autorickshaw guy asks you to keep the change because he has no time. You realize that culture has passed you by when the demure nineteen year old at the garba asks you to sleep with her. What can I say ...... I will take the shit ....

#21 by atif2

Yaar Atif, that was hilarious.

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Ajay & others,

I am not a Bombayite but lived there once (abt six months and transited thru the city from Gujarat to AP).

When I came to Bombay in it was all excitement. Walking out of VT station was like a dream.....impessive Victorian architecture of the Terminus (I think it`s a World Heritage bldg now), Bombay Corporation bldg, Time of India bldg, Crawford market, Bombay Uni bldg......people queuing for buses...wah it`s an eye feast. Walking in Fort area was no less...like medieval Surat, we have people of many cultures.....Marathis with thier black topis, Parsis, Muslims, Goan women in their frocks, free moving, backpack goras, dark skinned southies like me....it`s like God`s place......everybody has a place......a symbol of harmony and hope.

But moved to the area of Mazagoan docks....pavement dwellers. Moved to Vikhroli- Kanjurmarg belt saw some real slums. It`s all confusing. Rich and poor coexist. I think anybody can see the whole city in a week`s time! Now we have New Bombay, a very very good city.

But as a visitor I see these probs:

Flying dust on some roads,

Unhygeinic roadside eateries,

Misbehaviour of uncouth, new Bombayites,

Near impossible peak hour rides on local trains.

What we dont see is the faulty electoral politics of the city government. We can add more if we like.

As an aside I wanyt to add this: there`s a similarity btw Bombay and Karachi. Both are ruled by thokshahis....Thakre and Altaf. People complain abt the downfall on Bhayyas in Bombay and Karachi. The truth may be slightly different. NB can add here.

I remember bombay, when the riff-raff were not there. going to Chembur or dadar was like a full day`s outing. Colaba was spick and span, Back Bay area was just being reclaimed. Yes those days, Bombay was extremely civilised.

These days its a mad house. To go from IIT Powaii, to Worli sea face took almost 3 hours last year which is ridiculous. In juhu, one day walking was quicker than by car.

These days in Bombay it is not civilised behaviour that counts. It is the money you have that matters. When this happens all, of what the author recounts happens. Money drives the people, civic sense and a consideration for the environment is secondary.

Yes, Bombay has become the most uncooth, uncivilised, uncultured city in India (delhi is a close rival to this city). And I say this with sadness.

Re: # 16

Devkant and Folio

Nice to see fellow Bombayites here. The biggest problem in the city is the apathy of the middle class. It is inexcusable when a well-dressed man driving a Honda City spits out of his car.. I wanted to kill that sorry SOB.. Don`t people like that realise that this is the way viruses spread?

Another thing.. When the middle class realise that the Shiv Sena has done nothing good for the city, why didn`t they go and vote against them in the municipal elections? Many considered it below their dignity to vote in these elections...

Finally.. on local area management, it has worked in some parts of the suburbs. Unfortunately middle class suburban Bombayites, as a rule, only tend to bother about their own homes and the streets don`t seem to matter for them..

I`m sorry, you can`t blame outsiders for the mess or expect a cleanliness clode! One thing I noticed in Bombay was how many people coughed and spat and just spat for no reason, more than Calcutta or Delhi.
Bombay is filthy and can never be clean because people think they should be grateful that they live there and that they should not complain. If anyone does, the response is ``go back where you came from``. Atif is right for once, most people are perfectly happy to live in filth.

folio....i am from bombay and i feel very strongly on how this city functions. since the shiv sena came to power, bombay has simply gone to the dogs. as someone told me recently in a very subtle manner `bombay was very tolerant and safe, Mumbai is not`!!!

so i think lets ignore these pakis here who have nothing constructive to add to the discussion and concentrate on what can be done to make bombay better.

rgds,

devkant.

Dev,

Yeah...u are right.

We have an article on India, which is a rarity on Chowk and we have these jihadis navigating the discussion to Hindu vs Muslim domain!

harish and folio....what rubbish you guys are talking.

if we have to believe zeemax and some other pakistanis (behram for eg), pakistani cities are simply fantastic. infact they even rival dubai in development, if we are to believe them.

rgds,

devkant.

Harish,

WHy only Bakrid? Their cities are hellholes. Nearly 30% of the people in Faisalabad suffer from water-borne diseases. As for Karachi, u need to just browse the Dawn photographs everyday. Its` all abt sewage filled roads. Lahore may be better but not better than Dehli. Rawalpindi is the exact opposite of Islamabad.

May be Chutif2 was born in Norway and bred in Germany ;-)

#10 by Folio

As for Chinatown in SFO, I disagree with ur point. I had been to an eatery very close to the statue of liberty (Chinese looking goddess of liberty) but looking at the unhygeinic conditions in the eatery I walked out. U give them certificates?

If Atif mian feels China Town in SFO is hygienic, that only tells us what Paki sense of hygiene is. I also read in a Paki paper that the day after Bakrid it is virtually impossible to walk the streets of Paki cities and towns without tripping on animal entrails, and streets overflow with the blood of slaughtered animals. Some hygiene that is!

add on: People who are not familiar with SFO wud find this statue of liberty as misleading but Chinatown had it`s own lifesize statue of liberty with the godess looking Chinese. It`s not very familiar but there is one.

Author,

U made some +ve suggestions. I too think the same way. We cant have the NEW rules of excellene all over the city but few enclaves to start with. The fever for excellence wud catch up soon to other parts. The mantra shud be `improve`: if it`s bad make it good, if it`s good make it better, if it`s better make it the best, if it`s the best make it futuristic.

There are 2 points. Inefficiency of the city government and lack of civic sense on our part. Original Bombayites are of course very civilised. Its`s the migrants who made it very very dirty. Btw, where else can we find the people who just queue up 4 anything? Where else in India can u see men and women sitting side by side in a city bus without being ogled or misbehaved?

The point is: If these guyz spend several dozen crores to get elected, do u expect them to do us service?

Chutif2: Keep ur rants to UP. Your cities aint any better. If u have Isloo, we have Chandigarh, Gandhinagar and Jamshedpur. As for Chinatown in SFO, I disagree with ur point. I had been to an eatery very close to the statue of liberty (Chinese looking goddess of liberty) but looking at the unhygeinic conditions in the eatery I walked out. U give them certificates?

one area where the cities civic authorities need to take blame is that they need to provide dustbins on streets where people can throw their garbage.

second thing is we cannot expect to have special police squads for checking people on littering. there aren`t enough police to take care of law and order, where will police come to check who is throwing garbage and who isn`t.

what we can have is that every housing society or a group of them adopt the streets running outside their societies and take responsibility of keeping them clean, imposing fines etc.

and lets not encourage the goons of shiv sena. those bast**ds are good for nothing and are only interested in creating noise. the sena has been sitting in the bmc since the last 10 years. the results speak for theselves. thhey got elected again this time and i have given up all hopes of them running this city efficiently.

rgds,

devkant.

#2 - ``most residents of mumbai (i.e. the bhayyas) will disagree with what the author thinks as important``

Most residents of Mumbai are used to living in filth...and so just because they are happy being in a city doted with sidewalk defecation, it does not mean everything in hunky dory.

I have traveled all over US and Canada and visited many ethnic enclaves - China Town in San Francisco, Vietnamese enclave in southeastern Texas, Korean area in LA, Greek quarters in Toronto, Little Italy in NYC. No where have I encountered the kind of unhygienic conditions we find in Indian infested parts of cities. Go to Oak Tree road in NJ and you have to raise your pants to avoid any contact with red spittles on sidewalks. In many indian enclaves which I toured as part of my investigative reporting, I had to put on a face mask and gloves to avoid direct contact with germs and indians.

This hygiene problem is not just limited to indian areas in US. Singapore is the shiniest country in the world. Except for, of course, the Little India area where it is not uncommon to see lungi wearing south indians sitting along dirty sidewalks overflowing with garbage and where dark and sordid hotels are infested with rats and roaches.

US has done an excellent job of screening us Muslims at airports since we travel to and from countries where al-qaeda is active. This stops the spread of terrorism. It is quite logical that US should also setup inoculation and quarantine booths at airports to screen Indians coming from India in order to prevent spread of diseases. In the last 1000 years more humans have died due to plagues than due to war and terrorism combined.

This War on Filth will require generational commitment.

Re: # 2

That`s why I suggest that the Shiv Sena goons be unleashed on any littering, pan-spitting Bhaiyya. They could do something useful for the city.

[What is it going to take to have a Clean Bombay?]

A nuclear bomb exploded at 1900 feet for maximum effect. Bombay being a longish island, we may need several. It would incinerate the trash (both the inanimate and the human kind) as well as kill all the germs.

Would out friends across the border oblige?

Do you think, as GDP per capita rises, things will take care of themselves?

Some parts like dhravi are the pits and become sewer in the yearly torrential rainy season and floods as recent as 2005

Being a resident of Karachi and having an unflinching love for the city by the sea, I can very much relate to what you say. The last time I was in Bombay (1 year back) I could see the improvements in the city and very much hope that Bombay is given its due importance in terms of infrastructural improvements etc.

silly NRI rant..most residents of mumbai (i.e. the bhayyas) will disagree with what the author thinks as important.

The only solution to keep beautiful Bombay crisp n clean is to slice it and push it into the Indian Ocean -- way away from trash-wallowing India!