What is it going to take to have a Clean Bombay?

Re: # 54

So now Dharavi = Bombay.

Re: # 55
so it isn`t part of Bombay now? You cannot claim only the parts of Bombay that you like and disown the others. This is just the attitude I`m talking about. I have seen more of South Bombay than a lot of people. And I`m sorry, most of it is still dirty. I also saw this mass defecation in large parts of Santa Cruz. People complain about the ``lower classes`` being dirty, but they cannot live without construction workers and maids-how many of these people have access to clean toilets? Forget about maids actually, in public hospitals as a doctor, I did not have access to clean toilets.
Other cities at least acknowledge it is an issue, I hear people in Calcutta saying it`s dirty but I love it anyway. In Bombay you hear, it`s not dirty, it`s wonderful. And I am not talking about the high profile Shobha Des of the world who participate in ``clean city`; campaigns, I find the middle classes completely uninterested.
I`ll give you some time too to come up with a democratic country that restricts movement to cities and has internal passports.

Re: # 56

NB

I don`t support the system of internal passports or any form of communism, like people in some states of India..

I completely agree that middle-class apathy is a huge problem. Read my posts and you will see that.

You show absolutely zero objectivity when it comes to Calcutta. Einsteinwallah called you out about how the dirty parts of the city remain dirty and you launch a tirade against Bombay in response.

Re: # 57

Ajay78,

I do agree with NB regarding Calcutta. As mentioned is my previous post, there has
been some effort to clean up the city. Is it still filthy ? Of course it is. But the changes
are visible to the discerning (and perhaps forgiving) eye.

I have been to Bombay only as a visitor, so cannot offer a meaningful comparison. But
Delhi is definitely a cleaner city that both Bombay and Calcutta.

Einsteinwallah #51,

Making Indian railways expensive just to keep people out of Bombay and imposing
internal visa laws are both rather draconian measures. Imposing tougher penalties
and tightening littering laws are both do-able.

Re: # 57, I`m sorry, I thought the article was about Bombay. I was not aware there was a competition, in which case the whole of India would fail miserably. Calcutta is not cleaner than the late 90s, but it is way cleaner than the 80s. I have no idea when Einsteinwallah left. He did not call me out, as you put it, he gave his own opinions. Howrah station still is and remains filthy, but you don`t even see as many bare bottoms going into Howrah of a morning as you do going into Bombay.
You also don`t see people spitting as much anywhere else, and I really don`t know why.

Re: # 58
I just saw Einsteinwallah said he left in 1989. I think then he is wrong. I have an aunt in Bhawanipore, so I know. However, if he has not visited for 17 years, and then visits as an NRI, he will see no change, because it is still dirty,but his standards will have changed as a result of having lived away from India for so long. It doesn`t help to jump to Bombay`s defence as you are doing. It is inexcusable that a city that fancies itself as equal to New York, no shining star of cleanliness itself, allows itself to wallow in this filth.

Re: # 60

Calcutta was a dump, and will remain a dump for a long time to come. Nothing will change.

Yes, whatwill change the city- is if the refugees who turned up post 1971 are sent back packing to their country of origin and let them sort out their political problem there.

1971 was the year when calcutta started going down hill rapidly,IMHO

Re: # 62
I find even that hard because there has been movement between East and West Bengal for thousands of years, and people do not stop just because there is a border. On the other hand, I still believe in passports and visas, and it annoys me that the Left Front encourages illegals for their own gains. Of course Calcutta is dirty, did I ever say it wasn`t? Iron mask, who are you, may I ask?

Re: # 58

Try proposing some solutions for Bombay instead of bringing in your hatred and envy. Something constructive would help.

Re: # 59
Why envy? Or hatred? I don`t like Bombay, but hate is a strong word. I don`t feel that strongly about Bombay. I cannot stand filth, and I will not apologise for that. I don`t have any reason to feel envious!
But this is what I mean, this is typical if there is any criticism of Bombay`s dirt, you immediately attack the person making the criticism and talk about how it is cleaner than every other city in India. It is surprising that you would write an article on Bombay not being clean and then object when other people say the same thing. Before knocking other cities, you probably need to check them out. I don`t see it as my place to find a solution where dozens of civic, state and union governments have failed, because I do not know a way to change the way the people of Bomaby think.

Re: # 65

I wrote this article looking for solutions and constructive criticism. You have just stated that you are incapable of thinking of or suggesting both. I guess that`s fine.

Re: # 69
That`s right, get angry because I don`t agree with you! You have written a very ordinary article and not come up with any real ideas yourself, except setting fascists on the general population, which reveals your thinking. What other solutions have been suggested here? I can`t see any. I think the problem is with a lack of civic pride and a complete lack of accomodation for the poor. I don`t think there`s money in that, so no one will fix it, because the middle classes really don`t care. I have not stated I am incapable of thinking, just that I do not agree with you. You have accused me of being envious and turned the argument personal. I do not miss the dirty roads and beaches and polluted air; perhaps you do. If Bombay was worth envying, you would live there yourself.

Re: # 72
nb
You are not a Bombayite so you don`t have to be responsible for the dirt , the beaches and the polluted air (though I daresay Delhi and Bangalore may have worse air than Bombay not because of anything else but the sea breezes). However you cannot blame it on the middle class alone.

It is not the middle class people who are responsible for causing the majority of the dirt. They do not set up illegal huts for the migrants. The compounds of most cooperative societies are clean. Dharavi, the tracks beside the stations is not where the middle class live. They do not defaecate on the footpaths at Napean Sea road.

The project to clean up Bombay might come at a cost though that again some people may not like. Some of us perhaps would like to send the poor to other cities where they can live with dignity and toilets that Bombay cannot provide. But then those cities may not provide the poor the chance of eking out a living.

As long as other cities will not provide a livelihood they will flock to Bombay because it still can, and dirty it because they know no better and do not care.

Don`t even get me started on the leaches we elect as civic officials. The only good chap was Khairnar and the rest of the political creeps couldn`t wait to get him out.

Re: # 77
I was impressed with the improvement Delhi has made when it comes to pollution when I last went there 2 years ago. What on earth have they done?It is still polluted but way better than it was 10 years ago.

Re: # 77
the poor actually work for the middle classes and the wealthy. If we want their work, we need to think of where they live as well, don`t you think? I want a bai, but I don`t care where and how she lives, this is the result.

Re: # 82
nb
[ the poor actually work for the middle classes and the wealthy. If we want their work, we need to think of where they live as well, don`t you think? I want a bai, but I don`t care where and how she lives, this is the result.]

Not wrong, but not entirely feasible for all. When Bombay was smaller and domestic help was more local it was possible. We don`t live in Bombay anymore but have a flat there still and we know where our bai lives. She has a flat now no longer lives in a chawl. But all help today is not local. People commute from Kandivili to do domestic work in Andheri.

But it is not possible for all to do so. When you get hired for a job unless nobody asks you about the size of your home and accomodation. Mostly all they want is your address. There was an article in some magazine a long time ago about Bombay`s housing problems and they interviewed an Air India purser who lived in Dharavi. Maybe things have improved so that people can live in New Bombay and still commute easily enough to the airport.

If you were to find a good honest person for a bai who lived beside the highway in a hut how would you go about finding a (pucca) ouse for her? It isn`t that easy. For most harried people finding a bai is tough enough.

I believe if travel in Bombay were to become easier and the city itself were to become more distributed things would improve. People would be more willing to settle a little futher away if the city centres became more accessible. But for a long time the politician-builder-criminal (that seems tautological) nexus ensured that there would be no development in New Bombay and links to the main city to get returns on their investment in the western suburbs.

#84
About Delhi I think use of CNG itself has made an improvement in air quality, though being a landlocked city it will still have pollution issues. In Bombay too, most taxis have become CNG and I think something is going to be done about the buses.

I don`t disagree with what you say mostly, I have seen my city degrade over the years but the blame cannot be attributed only to the middle class who live there.