On Zillae Huma Usman

#132 sattar2 sahib

As a matter of fact, Muhammad is the last link of the chain of Prophets ...that is the only truth that makes us Muslims.

Everything else is false and whoever doesn`t believe in the above is NON-Muslim.

Any person who believes Mirza Ahmed as His/Her last Prophet or even Prophet is Not Muslim.Period.
There is NO ifs and buts. If you still insists in Not believing In the above and still insist that Mirza Ghulam was your last Prophet or whatever, and still be called Muslim.

Sorry, No real Muslim will compromise on this. Just go outside of this web site, ask any Muslim............even a layman will tell you the truth.

Now If you wish to twist Islam for your own wishes towards a false way, then I can`t help you with it.


#136 teshah sahib

No absolutely NOT I do not mind, you have your own POV which can be different than mine.
We both are two free and civilized individuals who can agree to disagree and who can disagree to agree..............but, don`t take every disagreement as some sort of personal attack like majority of interactors on this web site do, the moment you disagree with their opinions, they start attacking and counter attacking you and then play all innocent.

Thank God You and I are different league than all this crap.

Anyway, you raised quite interesting points.........Let me answer them point by point whatever I can with my very limited wisdom.

#1:-[[But, whereas it was mainly against the women previously it is against men now]]
Yes, hudood ordinance was against women, and I totally agree that it is now can be the opposite to harm innocent men.
Then it should be strict judiciary duty and strict laws for the protection of innocent men. In Pakistani patriarchal society, trust me even if hudood ordinance is no more there, raped women will be the only one who won`t come surface just for the fear of their men and for the fear of their reputation. Even then men are @ a big advantage for merely being men.
#2:-[[As regards MM`s case I am still doubtful if she was raped at all]]

Sir jii
With all due respect what kind of logic is this? C`mon a woman is raped infront of the whole bunch of people by a bunch of evils and here you are still persisting that she wasn`t raped...............WaWawa........Kiaa baat haiy jii aap kii.

So, that means you do not consider anything rape at all or the impression I am getting from your point is you do not think rape is a serious crime at all. Why to bother?

No, my dear sir ji
Miss MM was raped and her rapists got away with it in the beginning and latter only b/c of American media poor lady got some recognition.................

My POV for rape crime is to hang rapist to death. No less. No compromise, no ifs or buts.

#3:-[[ wonder why are you so selective in honouring MM when there are so many other nobler women who went through worse ordeal of rape.]]

Oh, YES I do with all my heart, I do support all the poor and oppressed women, but, majority of them are either underestimated(not reported), so how will I know? That happens in that society where majority of rape cases are garbaged under the carpet.

#4:-[[And by the way what you say about the sex-slaves whose fathers and brothers do not watch them dragged away but are killed fighting to save them. ]]

Yes, I agree with you on this point, my heart goes out for them. I wish we could make some strict law to protect those sex slaves. I believe Govt. should pass some amendment for those women who are forced to be sex slaves and try to free them and give them protection in the form of some beneficial institutions...........which can also help them to stand on their own feet...................Thanks for the thought provoking points.

Re: # 136, teshah saheb,

Why are you so much worried about the publicity and money MM got. She got all this because she was more courageous and outspoken. Hasn`t she risked even her life to expose so much of the rot brought upon by the obscurantist, barbaric and religo-patriarchal Paki society. Would not this help correct the injustice committed against other women and their loved ones?

Samar

Re: # 137, ZaharaJ,

I liked your smile? Thank you!

Samar

Re: # 131

samar -

:)

Re: # 122

Zeena dear (If you don`t mind)

No dear you are wrong in presuming that I am in favour of Hadood Ord. In fact I totally agree with you that it is as you say, `` the most cruel , inhumane ordinance ever on this mother earth``. But, whereas it was mainly against the women previously it is against men now. As appears from the recent media reports a flood gate of accusation of rape against men seems to have been opened after the recent amendment made therein, obviating the necessity of four eye witnesses.

As regards MM`s case I am still doubtful if she was raped at all. If at all it was a `consensual` or legal rape committed at the instance of a People`s Court (Village Panchayat). I wonder why are you so selective in honouring MM when there are so many other nobler women who went through worse ordeal of rape. And by the way what you say about the sex-slaves whose fathers and brothers do not watch them dragged away but are killed fighting to save them.

Re: # 133

Sattar2

You say:

``And finally … a person who considers himself a Muslim is a Muslim in my view. Quran vests no authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim.``

Certainly, according to the Quran, we can be Muslims without even having any faith - vide Sura Hujrat (49), verse 14. But the Paky Constitution denies this right to Paky Muslims who have to submit a `Halaf-Nama` (To whom God knows as all Pakies are `Halfi Muslims`), to be treated as Muslims officially.

I wonder how can they protest if other countries call them terrorists when their own government does not give them right to call themselves Muslims sans faith even.

Re: # 133 sattar2,

A very kind and heartening reply, sir! Thanks! You have endorsed my point of view, though I was a bit confused. I am not well versed with Quran or Hadith. I am feeling satisfied that even then I could grasp the real meaning of the basic teachings of Quran.
As regards treating each other Non-muslims I wish to ask you this : Do you approve of what is happening in Pak? Are not the sunni dominated laws of Pak `Oppressive and UN-ISLAMIC`. Not only laws, general public and even INTELLECTUALS also think in the same way. Are you ashamed of all this, then? Do you hope to find any way out of this mess? Or you will waste your time engaging in useless talk with real base and adamant intellectuals.

Re: # 132 I am further enlightened by this post too.

It is really foolish to believe that any one can claim to be the last prophet (or last of anything for that matter) in this infinite world which does not appear to have any beginning or any end.

Samar

samar (#126),

The general point I was trying to make about journalists is that … they stay employed if their material gets published. At times they may push boundaries to spice up stories. This should not be news to anyone. Read everything, but with a grain of salt.

If this killing was instigated by religious fanaticism, then Sarwar was probably no more than a little pawn. And pawns get sacrificed left and right … there are 8 of them for every king even in the game of chess. And life is a lot more complex than a game of chess.

And finally … a person who considers himself a Muslim is a Muslim in my view. Quran vests no authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim. The matter rests with Allah Almighty and is best left as such. So Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis etc. are all Muslims - no one has any right to declare them otherwise. If an Ahmadi-Muslim majority country declares them non-Muslims, I would surely consider such laws oppressive and un-Islamic – absolutely - shame on me otherwise.

Zeena (#120):

When did Allah ever say that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet? If he was the last prophet, it should be mentioned in Quran. No? Once we have discussed Quran, we can review ahadith as well ... if you so desire.

And please spare me this “ask any Muslim” diatribe … it sounds hollow. If you cannot validate your claim, it is merely a baseless opinion. Thanks, but no, thanks.

I`d rather learn Islam from Quran and Allah`s Prophet (pbuh). Mere opinions do not cut it for me.

Re: # 129 Khurram,

Thank God, our hands are clean! The bullets did not belong to us!!

Samar

#129 by khurram,

Thanks!

what I was trying to post earlier ....

FYI
Dawn has removed the word `cleric` from its story.

GUJRANWALA, March 20: An anti-terrorism court on Tuesday sentenced Mohammad Sarwer to death on two counts and fined him Rs200,000 in the murder case of Punjab Minister for Social Welfare Zille Huma Usman.

The court ordered that Rs100,000 of the fine would be given to the heir of the deceased. If the convict fails to make the payment, he will have to undergo one year of rigorous imprisonment.

The court also awarded two years imprisonment to the accused and fined him Rs10,000 for possessing an illicit weapon.

According to the prosecution, Sarwer killed the woman minister on Feb 20 when she was going to address an open court at the PML house in Satellite Town. He was arrested after the murder and a case was registered against him.

The court had issued charge-sheet on March 9 and later recorded statements of 15 prosecution witnesses.

what the ...!!!
Post 127 is not mine.

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Re: # 118 Sattar Saheb,

Thanks for enlightening me on `Moulvi or cleric` who, in your opinion, definitely relate to religious places even if they might not be much educated. Secondly, there is no bar for a blacksmith to be a Moulvi. Means, a blacksmith can be a Moulvi too. Thanks again.

But I`m puzzled to know that Paki journalists feed their children by promoting blacksmiths to the level of Moulvis. This is news to me. Even after this enlightenment doubts persist in my mind as to who should be paying the journalists for siding with a murderer. Now I am more curious to know this. I am really perplexed.

Last one I could understand because I had thought the same, i.e. `the ullemas are promoting intolerance, violence, and hatred in the name of Islam.` Now, it implies that they are promoting all this amongst blacksmiths, lock....,etc as well as amongst Moulvis and clerics. I agree. But why these graduated blacksmiths allow themselves to be ditched and to be called a psychopathic after they have done their duties.

I have one more query. (Perhaps,) I am a Ahmadia Muslim and don`t consider a Sunni as a Muslim. ARE Sunnis Muslims? Or, ARE sunnis Non-Muslims? Shall I be empowered to give some final verdict and deal with them accordingly in my future Ahmadia majority country? I think I will do wrong if I do this. You may CONSIDER anything about them but can not say that they ARE as such. This will be a blasphemy because in my opinion final verdict can be given by ALLAH and ALLAH only. Kindly enlighten on the basis of Quran.

Samar

Sorry for typo in #124

Corrected. Please, read it as.............
Why I always roam around in Pakistan with NO Purdha and still alive?}}

Thanks