On Zillae Huma Usman

#148 by aishaM on March 23, 2007 11:21am PT
Re: # 147, Sattar2,

[[Sattar Saheb,

I am surprised that while you have wasted so much of your precious time [[[on an imbecile]] you have ignored my very simple and innocent query. If you are not yet off to bed please find time to enlighten me on the question raised by me in #145.

Samar]]

samar1982 aka aishaM sahib/sahiba

Look who`s showing IDIOCY here, obviously you who is unable to comprehend my simple and straightforward posts and calling me imbecile while admitting here on front page that you are carrying TWO CHOWK IDS at the same time. You with your multiple nicks(samar1982 and aishaM) is unable to handle multiple Nicks, so just focus on ONE ID.

Sadly, it is interactors like you who carry multiple IDS @ the same time and chowk staff doesn`t even ban your one ID which is an open violation of chowk interact guidelines.
Please, show us INTELLECTUAL HONESTY AND USE ONLY ONE ID..

Yes, I am imbecile b/c I am intellectually honest and do not use multiple IDs like you.

sattar2
You are confused. You can NOT twist the whole Muslim faith according to your own confused state of mind. BTW, where it is written that Ghulam Ahmed was the last prophet?

Sattar, Zeena, Zahraj, etc.

Why are you indulging in a futile exercise? I will advise you all to read the `Munir Inquiry Report` on the subject. According to this Report the so called Ullema had failed to agree on the very definition of the term `Muslim`. But in spite of that they got the `Constitution of Pakistan` amended to turn it into a `Fatwa` declaring Ahmadies as `Non-Muslims` through an `in-camera` session of the Parliament during early 70`s. Ironically, when the whole constitution remains suspended or even abrogated this fatwa stands intact to create a new variety of muslims in Pakistan, the `Halfi Muslims`. How absurd is all this!

Btw, can any body provide me with the speech of the Head of Ahmadya community delivered in the said in camera session of the National Assembly?

#147 sattar2 sahib

No, Sir I am not calling you Non Muslim. You yourself calling all Islamic fundamental teachings as ODD. You are confused. Simple. You are proving yourself Non Muslim.

How come you are denying basic foundations of a religion by calling them ODD and then crying out loud that still you should be accepted as Muslim? Again, who is ODD here?

Just think about it.

aisha (#148),

I think I now better understand your inquiry. I was meaning to get to #145, but got tied up a bit. Anyway, here we go …

The student here may be violating teacher’s instructions, which may make him a bad follower. But a bad follower is a follower nevertheless.

Furthermore, this follower may have a radically different interpretation of the teacher’s instructions – and this further complicates the issue. The issue potentially becomes somewhat relative.

Sunni Muslims persecuting Ahmadi-Muslims is indeed low and despicable. I may disagree with oppressors in their interpretation of Islam, but would not go as far as declaring them non-Muslims. I may argue that some of their specific actions are against Islamic teachings, but declaring them altogether non-Muslims would not be appropriate.

In Quran Allah Himself uses the term “Muslim” for believers, without granting anyone any right to declare anyone otherwise. Belief, more than anything, is a matter of heart, and only Allah can judge what is in a person’s heart.

Furthermore, a person may knowingly and willingly violate commandments of Quran … involving patience, piety, humility, drinking, gambling … and more. But this does not make him a non-Muslim either. Human flesh is weak. Human heart is prone to err and to entertain thoughts regarding the forbidden. Our better selves are in constant battles against our egos, our primal instincts, and our inner lusts. Sometimes the better self wins, sometimes it loses. One must try to better himself/herself through prayers, reflection, effort … while seeking help and forgiveness from Allah Almighty. This is a life-long journey … where one attempts to establish a close relationship with his/her Creator and to better him/herself.

Islam offers a path along this journey. Becoming a Muslim is the first step in this journey along this particular path … where one places faith in Allah, Quran, and teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). According to Islam taught to us by the dear Prophet (pbuh), a person becomes Muslim by declaring belief in the kalima.

I recall reading a hadith where a slave-woman was being beaten by her master. I don’t remember the details, but the issue of her being a non-Muslim was somehow raised. The Prophet (pbuh) asked this woman who he (that is, the Prophet, pbuh) was. She replied “You are rasool Allah”. The prophet expressed his view that she indeed is a Muslim.

So this debate about definition of a Muslim is a non-starter in my view. It leads to fruitless discussion, which only enhances rigidity and intolerance. If a person claims to be a Muslim, he/she is a Muslim in my view. The matter rests between this individual and Allah …

Now in some cases a person’s religion may become an issue for others: for example, when dividing up the deceased’s inheritance, etc. In such cases the state/government should deal with the matter in fair, just manner, without indulging in rigid, intolerant definitions.

Re: # 149, Sattar2

My query was really very simple and straight forward. You have very kindly given an elaborated reply for which I am grateful to you. I got it`s essence and the subtle meaning. Thanks again.

#153, teshah saheb,

I completely agree with your post, sir. And when there is no clear-cut definition everyone should treat others (who wish to call themselves Muslims) Muslims. This is the fairest thing for Pak and Muslim world in general. But look, what the fanatics are bent upon doing. Really frustrating.

Samar

Re: # 149

Sattar -

Buhat Afsoas Kee Baat Hae :(
You need to attend to a genuine query asap. You should not be taking so much time :D

:)

Why don`t you arrange for a conference call with all the interested parties and address their questions one by one ? You will have a better chance of influencing them ;)

Good luck.

Zeena (#144),

You are jumping to erroneous conclusions here. I am not asking for you to accept me as a Muslim.

If you escalate the issue by emphasizing the “last prophet” notion, you should back up this notion with some reference. So far you have failed to provide basis of ``last prophet`` notion, while turning it into a devisive issue.

So all we have here is your unsubstantiated opinion. Making a statement, followed by “no ifs or buts; period” … sounds hollow. I am interested in Quran and what the dear Prophet (pbuh) taught us … and not in your hollow opinions.

Re: # 147, Sattar2,

Sattar Saheb,

I am surprised that while you have wasted so much of your precious time on an imbecile you have ignored my very simple and innocent query. If you are not yet off to bed please find time to enlighten me on the question raised by me in #145.

Samar

Re: # 149, sattar saheb : ref: #148,

This post belongs to me. Aisha is my cousin who happened to visit us yesterday evening and used my computer. She wrote many poems in her i-log and was careless enough to let it be inadvertently used by me. When I came back late in the evening, found the window open and out of foolishness, stupidity, ineptitude, rashness, imbecility, etc. etc and idioCY sent the message through her ID.

Aisha, I accept my fault and feel sorry to have used your ID. I request Chowk staff to excuse me.

Samar

RE:-#141 sattar2
[[ and now Zeena has posted some 8-odd points of her own (post #75).]]

Dear sattar sahib ji
Well, let me revise all those points one by one and let`s see which point is ODD and doesn`t suit your mind.

Here is my take for being Muslims. Anyone who accepts this with the honesty of his/her heart with unshakable faith is Muslim.

1:-[[God(Almighty) is ONE and believes in God(almighty) as super supreme..............]]

So, this is ODD point that I made up on my own...........So, by saying it as odd point you are nullifying the basic concept of being believer or non believer...........Being Muslim comes next. First you have to be believer to be called as Muslim.
and
[[Muslim believes and respects Prophet Mohd(PBUH). He/she will never ever utter any word of disrespect or any derogatory word or insults for HIM(PBUH).]]

Again, by calling this point an ODD point , you`re denying the basic concept of Islam(Foundation stone)........So, in your POV it is OK to NOT believe in Prophet Mohd(PBUH) and it is OK to insult and disrespect HIM and still you are Muslim............WoW!!! quite intelligent.

Just think...........if you can...........

2:-[[Muslim believes Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as the last prophet of all.]]

So, you do not believe in Prophet Mohd(PBUH) and do not believe that Prophet Mohd(PBUH) was the last brick and last chain of the Prophet hood.........and you find it ODD.........impressive........and still you wish to be called Muslim...........whom you`re playing here?

3:[[-Muslim if confused about some issue will always try to resolve it with the help of Quran and with the help of VALID hadiths( a guidance from our Prophet(PBUH), NULLIFYING invalid hadiths to clear all chaos.]]

Ohh, so this point is also ODD, So, you do not believe in Quran and then Valid Hadiths(real guidance from Our Last Prophet Mohd(PBUH)..........And you are still insisting that you are Muslim.....just think

4:-[[Muslim is free to ask questions about Quran , about Islam`s teachings and also about Prophet(PBUH)`s ways of life WITHOUT disrespecting or insulting Prophet(PBUH)`s personal life and HIS ways.]]

BTW, what is the ODD about this point? yes, Muslims and also other Non Muslims are free to exchange discussions about Quran/Prophet Mohd(PBUH)`s teachings..........So, you think it is ODD to ask questions and think to quench the thirst of curious minds to polish their ways of lives and to enhance their thought processes............So, you find it ODD NOT to disrespect Quran/Prophet Mohd(PBUH)`s teachings...........Wonderful!! Quite intelligent approach........carry on.

5:-[[There is a MAJOR difference between being INQUISITIVE maintaining decency, manners and certain class and being disrespectful.]]

So, this point is also ODD for you..........it wouldn`t be odd for you, if, someone doesn`t care for manners, doesn`t show certain class, doesn`t maintain decency and he/she must be disrespectful in his/her inquisitiveness about Quran and Prophet Mohd(PBUH)

6:[[-Believes in all Prophets prior to Last Prophet(PBUH).]]

What is ODD about this point ? Yes, there are total of One Lakh and 24 thousand Prophets including our Prophet Mohd(PBUH)...........Who was the last brick of all this house of Prophet hood( Mohd (PBUH) stated HIMSELF........,`` I am the last prophet and there will be NO prophet after me, I have completed this chain of Prophet hood.

So, Mohd(PBUH)`s saying was ODD...........Oh, really......I did not know that.....You`re right.........

7:-[[Believes Quran/kalima/five times prayers/fasting/zakat/Hajj]]

So,to believe in Quran/kalima/praying five times/fasting/hajj/zakat is ODD for you, where as these are the actual pillars of Islam..................You are genius.

8:-[[Believes in Valid Hadiths(Nullify invalid hadiths).]]

So, to believe in Mohd(PBUH) true and valid sayings which are for the betterment of the whole world are ODD...............You are NOT odd, Mr.sattar2............Yes, My points are all ODD.

Well, by calling my all above points ODD, you gave me your answer...............No need to discuss anything further................Just think....

Well, I am not a giving any fatwaaa, You are yourself denying all the basic concept of Islam and being Muslim , you are twisting the whole foundation of Islam and then coming to me saying , I have to accept you as a Muslim............just think about it.

Who is being ODD here? Just think about it.

Zeena (#140):

Merely making claims does not serve any purpose. You may as well insist that … earth is flat, no ifs and buts. Period.

You may consider Ahmadis non-Muslims, and that’s fine. But if you escalate the issue by insisting on ”last prophet” issue, you should back up your claim.

Your inability to do so underscores weakness of your own view. It’s something for you to consider as you go around passing fatwas of kuffr against others.

samar (#134),

Regarding treatment of non-Muslims, I am not sure which issue you are specifically referring to; but must add that … Islam teaches us to treat everyone with dignity, fairness, and compassion. Laws and codes that violate these principles are un-Islamic and unfair, in my view.

+++

teshah (#135),

Good point and thanks for your comments.

As Quran delineates in 49:14, being a Muslim does not necessarily mean that faith has entered a person’s heart. It is perhaps only the first step … whereby a person becomes a Muslim by declaring his faith in Allah and His Messenger (pbuh) by reciting kalmia -“There is none worthy of worship but Allah; Muhammad (pbuh) is messenger of Allah”.

Acquiring true faith, righteousness, humility, selflessness is a lifelong struggle … mostly within one’s own self, against one’s own ego. It is no easy task by any measure.

Leave it to fanatics to come up with their own elaborate definitions of “Muslim”. Each mullah has his own … and now Zeena has posted some 8-odd points of her own (post #75).

These definitions have little to do with Islam or Quran. They are mostly rooted in self-righteousness and an intolerant view of the world.

Re: # 141, Sattar2,

You can say that again, Sattar Saheb! Really, now I have grown more curious. Please read the following very carefully. I am writing this as best as I can.

Suppose a teacher teaches his student many good things and forbids many bad things. Student, who claims to be the teacher`s staunch follower, does the opposite, engage in all the forbidden things and leaves aside good things. Should his claim to be the teacher`s follower be tolerated?

In Pak majority of Sunnis not only consider Ahmadias as Non-Muslims but subject them to persecution and harassment. Even the Sunni dominated Pak constitution has condemned them to be Non-Muslims. They are killed, are not allowed to call themselves Muslims. Are these Sunnis the follower of Islam, i.e. are they Muslims?

Kindly, satisfy my urge to know on the basis of your last post and Quran. I hope you understood my very specific question correctly and enlighten me as pointedly as you can.

Thanks.

Samar

#132 sattar2 sahib

As a matter of fact, Muhammad is the last link of the chain of Prophets ...that is the only truth that makes us Muslims.

Everything else is false and whoever doesn`t believe in the above is NON-Muslim.

Any person who believes Mirza Ahmed as His/Her last Prophet or even Prophet is Not Muslim.Period.
There is NO ifs and buts. If you still insists in Not believing In the above and still insist that Mirza Ghulam was your last Prophet or whatever, and still be called Muslim.

Sorry, No real Muslim will compromise on this. Just go outside of this web site, ask any Muslim............even a layman will tell you the truth.

Now If you wish to twist Islam for your own wishes towards a false way, then I can`t help you with it.


#136 teshah sahib

No absolutely NOT I do not mind, you have your own POV which can be different than mine.
We both are two free and civilized individuals who can agree to disagree and who can disagree to agree..............but, don`t take every disagreement as some sort of personal attack like majority of interactors on this web site do, the moment you disagree with their opinions, they start attacking and counter attacking you and then play all innocent.

Thank God You and I are different league than all this crap.

Anyway, you raised quite interesting points.........Let me answer them point by point whatever I can with my very limited wisdom.

#1:-[[But, whereas it was mainly against the women previously it is against men now]]
Yes, hudood ordinance was against women, and I totally agree that it is now can be the opposite to harm innocent men.
Then it should be strict judiciary duty and strict laws for the protection of innocent men. In Pakistani patriarchal society, trust me even if hudood ordinance is no more there, raped women will be the only one who won`t come surface just for the fear of their men and for the fear of their reputation. Even then men are @ a big advantage for merely being men.
#2:-[[As regards MM`s case I am still doubtful if she was raped at all]]

Sir jii
With all due respect what kind of logic is this? C`mon a woman is raped infront of the whole bunch of people by a bunch of evils and here you are still persisting that she wasn`t raped...............WaWawa........Kiaa baat haiy jii aap kii.

So, that means you do not consider anything rape at all or the impression I am getting from your point is you do not think rape is a serious crime at all. Why to bother?

No, my dear sir ji
Miss MM was raped and her rapists got away with it in the beginning and latter only b/c of American media poor lady got some recognition.................

My POV for rape crime is to hang rapist to death. No less. No compromise, no ifs or buts.

#3:-[[ wonder why are you so selective in honouring MM when there are so many other nobler women who went through worse ordeal of rape.]]

Oh, YES I do with all my heart, I do support all the poor and oppressed women, but, majority of them are either underestimated(not reported), so how will I know? That happens in that society where majority of rape cases are garbaged under the carpet.

#4:-[[And by the way what you say about the sex-slaves whose fathers and brothers do not watch them dragged away but are killed fighting to save them. ]]

Yes, I agree with you on this point, my heart goes out for them. I wish we could make some strict law to protect those sex slaves. I believe Govt. should pass some amendment for those women who are forced to be sex slaves and try to free them and give them protection in the form of some beneficial institutions...........which can also help them to stand on their own feet...................Thanks for the thought provoking points.

samar (#126),

The general point I was trying to make about journalists is that … they stay employed if their material gets published. At times they may push boundaries to spice up stories. This should not be news to anyone. Read everything, but with a grain of salt.

If this killing was instigated by religious fanaticism, then Sarwar was probably no more than a little pawn. And pawns get sacrificed left and right … there are 8 of them for every king even in the game of chess. And life is a lot more complex than a game of chess.

And finally … a person who considers himself a Muslim is a Muslim in my view. Quran vests no authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim. The matter rests with Allah Almighty and is best left as such. So Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis etc. are all Muslims - no one has any right to declare them otherwise. If an Ahmadi-Muslim majority country declares them non-Muslims, I would surely consider such laws oppressive and un-Islamic – absolutely - shame on me otherwise.

Re: # 133

Sattar2

You say:

``And finally … a person who considers himself a Muslim is a Muslim in my view. Quran vests no authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim.``

Certainly, according to the Quran, we can be Muslims without even having any faith - vide Sura Hujrat (49), verse 14. But the Paky Constitution denies this right to Paky Muslims who have to submit a `Halaf-Nama` (To whom God knows as all Pakies are `Halfi Muslims`), to be treated as Muslims officially.

I wonder how can they protest if other countries call them terrorists when their own government does not give them right to call themselves Muslims sans faith even.