On Zillae Huma Usman

Nadia -

I am sorry you missed my points. We are not on the same page at all. Probably, you should care to write a piece on your perspective. Rather than engaging in battles on Chowk, why don`t you invest your energies in writing for Chowk?

Perhaps, you should consider that seriously.

It will be great to read your perspective and contribution.

Good Luck!

sattar2 #67

[[[#64 Zeena,

[[[[If that is what an Ahamdi said, he is incorrect. Ahmadi-Muslims consider Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be most exalted prophet of Allah, ever. Furthermore, Mirza Sahib is not necessarily the last prophet of Allah. We believe that Allah will continue to raise prophets to guide people to Islam as they go astray. Divine Law got completed in form of Quran … but door to non-Law bearing prophethood remains open (very similar to prophethood of Jesus, Haroon, etc.). ]]]]

Well, sattar sahib,

Here is my take for being Muslims. Anyone who accepts this with the honesty of his/her heart with unshakable faith is Muslim.

God(Almighty) is ONE and believes in God(almighty)
and
1:-Muslim believes and respects Prophet Mohd(PBUH). He/she will never ever utter any word of disrespect or any derogatory word or insults for HIM(PBUH).

2:-Muslim believes Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as the last prophet of all.

3:-Muslim if confused about some issue will always try to resolve it with the help of Quran and with the help of VALID hadiths( a guidance from our Prophet(PBUH), NULLIFYING invalid hadiths to clear all chaos.

4:-Muslim is free to ask questions about Quran , about Islam`s teachings and also about Prophet(PBUH)`s ways of life WITHOUT disrespecting or insulting Prophet(PBUH)`s personal life and HIS ways.

5:-There is a MAJOR difference between being INQUISITIVE maintaining decency, manners and certain class and being disrespectful.

6:-Believes in all Prophets prior to Last Prophet(PBUH).

7:-Believes Quran/kalima/five times prayers/fasting/zakat/Hajj

8:-Believes in Valid Hadiths(Nulify invalid hadiths).

Now, if someone believes in all above is Muslim.

You have accepted in your above post openly that you do not believe in our Prophet(PBUH) as last prophet......so, that makes you NON MUSLIM.

You can call yourself MIRZAAI, but, Non Muslim. Lets take the example of Jews and Christianity, Muslims do respect and believe in their perophets, too. But, they do not believe in Our Prophet(PBUH) and they do not call us Christians or Jews. And we do not call ourselves Jews or Christians. Clear.

#3:- [[You are too quick to judge Ahmadi-Muslim community here]]....trust me I am not too quick to judge anyone here, they are giving us an open invitation to judge them by routinely insulting Prophet(PBUH).

My best friend was mirzaai, I never have had any problems with mirzaais, she never called herslef Muslim, she always called herself Mirzaai and thats the thing I still respet and love her. She was not confused.

#4:-[[According to your standard, non-Muslims have the right to discriminate against Muslims on basis of a few suicide bombers. No? Yes?]]
Nobody has any right to discriminate anyone based on gender, creed, religion and cast.
Even though those two mirzaais abuse Prophet(PBUH) in the most derogatory way possible, I never ever utter a single word of disrespect for your Peophet(Mirzaa Ghulam).

They are constantly harrassing me, calling me whore, prostitute and much much more, b/c I requested them to stop posting derogatory posts against Prophet(PBUH). Even then I do not call them names. Only pray from God(Al mighty) to shwo them the right path.

Ahmadis are considered minority group in Pakistan and they have all their rights just like other minorities.


Now if you still persist that you are Muslim even though you accepted openly on this forum about your belief, then you are living in fools paradise. take care

Re: # 70,
Now it makes little difference whether MM was actually raped or was only caught committing Jina. If the later is true than she may fall in the category of so called call girls murdered by the maulana. Then what? Do you want her to be hanged or murdered?
From your post(s) it appears that your grudge is only against her being rewarded. Tell me, should the call girls, earning for livelihood be punished or the ones buying them up of their Haram money. To feel and understand the plight of all these women, i.e. either subjected to sexual abuse or engaged in some kind of unlawful sexual activities themselves, one must be endowed with a little sensitivity towards women. It is too hard to live through the trauma of a woman who is labeled a loose or a raped woman to drum it up on her own.
Your contention is that as she was caught red handed so she should have slandered herself with committing Jina and not for being raped.
OK. That she has found a gold mine, she will never do that now.

#67 by sattar2

Zeemax, You were uncouth when you did not have to be. Your posts display a certain pattern of abuse.

You are right when you say that and I realize it now. I have no hesitation in admitting it. ZahraJ never really attacked me for anything but I was still uncouth towards her because, as I realize it now, I have a deep-seated scorn for half-hearted and shallow attempts of people trying to sympathise with the immense misery of the disadvantaged populations, when being either completely unaware of the root cause, or dismissing the root causes as the mullah`s fault.

To be clearer, I despise charity. I simply hate it. I believe charity to be beneath human dignity, and the only actions I respect are the sustainable ones where the downtroddens` dignity (what else do they have anyway) is not comrpomised. There are many examples of this having been done, but it is neither fashionable to take that route, nor can it be done while sitting in air-conditioned NGO offices of anaa.

Regards

#70 by teshah ,

A always suspected you`re a deranged AH, but now I`m convinced without any doubt.

Paky women are now trying to follow the role-model of the Mai and shamelessly publicizing their alleged rape in the hope of being honoured and rewarded ..

If through MM`s courageous action rape is no more a taboo to be concealed and hidden by the unfortunate women, then MM is to blame.

BTW lemme ask you a question. How much money did MM make? What did she do with that money? Where does she now live ? (I mean in Paris, NY, Karachi, Islamabad, etc ... )

#70 dear interactor,

Kindly go find yourself the nearest lake - no, not for admiring your reflection therein!

The text below is excerpted from a newsletter posted by Genderwatchers.org.

---

A troubling parable of Pakistani society, observers say, rests at the intersection where Usman and her killer collided on the afternoon of Feb. 20 in Gujranwala, a northeastern city of more than 3 million. Usman, the first female politician in her family, was a proud symbol of change. Thanks to national laws which allotted one-third of all local legislative seats for women, some 30,000 women entered local politics after 2001, according to a 2004 World Bank study.Usman herself began working up the ladder four years ago.

``She was very interested in giving charity to the poor. Her belief was that if you want to work, it is no matter if you are a man or a woman,`` her husband, Muhammed Usman Haider, says at the family home in Gujranwala. ``I`m proud to say she`s the most pious woman. She knows more about Islam than anyone.``

Meanwhile, religious leaders universally condemn Mr. Sarwar`s stated motives, and while few clerics would support his extreme actions, the rising violence indicates that there may be segments of society who do. A debate rages over what Islam says about a woman`s right to work and hold office.

``Whoever did this was wrong. She was not un-Islamic. There is nowhere in the Koran that women cannot hold office, as long as they act with modesty,`` says Aqeel Ahmed, who works at a computer shop in Gujranwala. More than religion, what most disturbs observers is that Usman was not Sarwar`s first victim. In 2003, he confessed to police that he had killed at least four women and wounded four others, mostly prostitutes and dancers.

His gruesome acts made national headlines, but when Sarwar appeared in court, he changed his story and the cases fell apart. There were also allegations, according to the local press, that religious leaders paid compensation money to the victims` families, who eventually dropped the cases.

While police deny any wrongdoing or neglect in Sarwar`s previous cases, his frequent run-ins with the law, observers say, expose the institutional discrimination at work within the Pakistani justice system. ``[Women] are not getting real justice. They`re not going through the police and the judiciary ... It will take so much time and insults of that lady,`` says Humaira Hashmi, the regional general manager of the Punjab Rural Support Program in Multan, which addresses issues of women`s rights.

Such lapses are part of the larger fabric of abuse toward women that goes unchecked in Pakistani society, according to observers. An October 2006 United Nations report highlighted that honor killings claimed the lives of 4,000 men and women between 1998 and 2003 in Pakistan.

``Police almost invariably take the man`s side in honor killings or domestic murders, and rarely prosecute the killers,`` said a 1999 Amnesty International report. ``Even when the men are convicted, the judiciary ensures that they usually receive a light sentence, reinforcing the view that men can kill their female relatives with virtual `impunity.` `` (Christian Science Monitor March 6, 2007)

A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission

PAKISTAN: The government`s policy of appeasing fundamentalists is responsible for the murder of a female minister
The government of Pakistan continues to turn a blind eye to Islamic extremism throughout the country and is compromising the rule of law for religious fanaticism. In doing so, the country has once again witnessed the brutal and senseless death of one of the states political hopefuls. This time, the Minister of Social Welfare was assassinated in the streets for no reason other than being female.

On 20 February 2007, Punjab`s provincial Minister Zille Huma Usman was killed in broad daylight as she was about to address an open session of her `meet-the-people` pre-election campaign at her electoral constituency in Gujranwala. The murderer, a man named Maulvi Sarwar Mughal, is known to have already killed more than half a dozen other women in the past for so-called sins against Islam. After one year, each of his cases were thrown out of court based on a lack of evidence, resulting in him remaining a free man up until his most recent planned execution of the minister. Shamefully, Maulvi had tried to kill female Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto at least two times in the early 1990s. Maulvi Sarwar stressed that he was unable to kill her because she had such tight security.?In his statement to police and media, he went on to say that the minister (Zille Huma) deserved to die because she refused to wear her full veil and had chosen to pursue a career that was outside the home.

In Pakistan, murders against women such as this are happening because military and police promote policy that allows fundamentalist killers to negotiate their freedom. This is the same policy that grants reprieve under Islamic Law. Those who commit such heinous crimes are allowed to pay a determined amount of money to the victim`s families via authoritative negotiation or aggressive threats. Once the family has been bought, the killer walks free and is able to continue carrying out the work that has been quietly sanctioned by the radical clerics and sympathetic government administrators. It is known that Maulvi had not been condemned for targeting working women after he and his patrons began a protest movement against theaters and picture houses, a campaign that was made successful through the support of local government administrators and religious extremists in 2005. It is alleged that he was actively involved and supported by influential community figures in this movement that was set to clean the city of sinful women who decided to work.

The Asian Human Rights Commission accuses the Pakistani government of supporting fundamentalist policies that have resulted in Minister Zille Huma Usman`s death. If the government had acted against this serial killer in the past and condemned his hateful doctrine, Minister Zille Huma Usman may be alive today. Despite the killer`s first two assassination attempts, the police did not arrest him since they did not take the matter seriously enough. The AHRC purports that the government of Pakistan refusal to take death threats against women seriously proves that they are quietly condoning a patriarchal society that is organized under fundamental law. The AHRC is extremely saddened to report that the government`s lack of respect for women has resulted in a drastic increase incases of rape, honor killings, abduction and forced marriage over the past 6 years. From 2000 to 2006, roughly 9379 women were killed throughout Pakistan in different disputes including 117 from rape. There were another 3116 cases of reported rape, 1260 gang rapes, 4572 honor killing, while 1503 women were burned to death.(Please see AHRC Human Rights report 2006). Needless to say, the unreported figure is much higher.

# # #

About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984.

Posted on 2007-02-28

Re: # 68

What about Mukhtaran Mai: Half a dozen Mastoies were sentenced to death for her alleged rape by the suo motu action of the trial court; the rape which is yet to be proved in a court of law. Nevertheless she is enjoying the fruits of her `dishonour` with all the glitter and glamour being showered upon her by all and sundry which is the envy of the women both in the east and the west. Paradoxically, it is the same judicial system which let moulvi Sarwar go off after killing half a dozen women. No wonder the poor Paky women are now trying to follow the role-model of the Mai and shamelessly publicizing their alleged rape in the hope of being honoured and rewarded for it like Mai.

#63 aisham,

Minor, but critical correction: Ahmadis are not asking to be treated as Muslims. Rather, they are only demanding that they have the right to consider themselves Muslims. Note the subtle, critical difference here.

A person may consider another non-Muslim … and that’s his choice. But he cannot justifiably force his interpretation of Islam on another. This issue underscores ummah’s fanaticism.

+++

#64 Zeena,

If that is what an Ahamdi said, he is incorrect. Ahmadi-Muslims consider Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be most exalted prophet of Allah, ever. Furthermore, Mirza Sahib is not necessarily the last prophet of Allah. We believe that Allah will continue to raise prophets to guide people to Islam as they go astray. Divine Law got completed in form of Quran … but door to non-Law bearing prophethood remains open (very similar to prophethood of Jesus, Haroon, etc.).

You are too quick to judge Ahmadi-Muslim community here. Let me turn the tables on you:

If some Muslims support suicide bombings, does that necessarily mean that all Muslim should be persecuted?

According to your standard, non-Muslims have the right to discriminate against Muslims on basis of a few suicide bombers. No? Yes?

+++

#65 Zeemax,

You were uncouth when you did not have to be. Your posts display a certain pattern of abuse.

#64 by Zeena

To support mirzaais was the biggest mistake of my life.

Well ... you know better now.

#58 by ZahraJ ,

Yes, I`m uncouth when I have to be. I won`t deny that because that`s the truth. But I`m not hypocritical. That too is the truth. I`m also intolerant (which you didn`t mention but I`m admitting it nevertheless) when faced with hypocrites of the highest order.

The problem with you is that you are prejudiced, biased, and blind. You only take the line which is fashionable, and reject the rest out of hand when it is not without even exploring it.. You have a closed and diseased mind swathed in rose coloured glasses.

That`s why I don`t like you, and think you`re a creep who is better relegated to the confines of her NGOs.

Regards.

#59 abu_safwan brother
Very valid points. Bravo!!!

Yes, Mirzaiis are NOT MUslims and thats a fact. I recently have observed here on chowk the extremely abusive attitudes of two well known mirzaaiis called Kulharee and Verizon(Admin bukbuk.com) with multiple nicks who come to chowk just to insult our Prophet(PBUH) and when I tried to stop them politely with valid points, they ganged up against me along with certain other abusive females interactors and some Hindu interactors and call me the vilest gaalis possible and they have made it their routine to come to chowk UP and abuse me more and more and then abuse Prophet(PBUH).

And then when they come to chowk.FP they show their hypocrisy and start playing all Muslims. WoW!!!

They openly state that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is their last Prophet and OUR Prophet(PBUH) was a false prophet and they try every possible derogatory garbage to humiliate Prophet(PBUH)..............

I always supported these Mirzaais for their minority rights in Pakistan, but, after seeing what I saw on chowk I am NOT going to support Mirzaais any more.

To support mirzaais was the biggest mistake of my life.

#59, Abu_safwan, Hinting a parallel between banning beef in India/Bombay and discrimination against Kadianis in Pakistan is ridiculous. By not eating cows you show your solidarity with your fellow countrymen whereas by subjecting your fellow countrymen to all type of harassment, oppression and persecution you alienate them. This is what is going on in Pakistan. Sunnis against Shias ag. Kadianis ag Ahmadia; Wahabi Mullahs ag. women ag. Politicians ag. intellectuals ag. madarsas; ISI ag. media ag. Administration ag. Madarsas etc. etc. And all these people are enemies of poor people and are bent upon breaking up Pakistan.
But I agree with your contention that why these Kadianis are begging for being treated as Muslims.

The best role-model for the women of Pakistan to survive and enjoy is perhaps that of Mukhtaran Mai, the so called `Rape Queen`. It is intriguing that even the Mastoies at whose cost she is enjoying this glitter and glory have not even spoken against her in the public.

Zahra sis, I second #60.