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#165 sattar2 sahib

Who is going in circles again and again? Obviously you. Look @ each and every post of your`s....Repeating the same thing over and over again.

Call all Muslims foundations ODD, then calling Prophet Mohd(PBUH) ODD. And then insisting then you should be called Muslim...............just think

You are way , too confused.

As Longfellow said,

Life is real! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Let us, then, be up and doing,
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait.

Zahra,

Inadvertently and somewhat unwittingly, I have become the Chowk poster boy of this Muslim/Ahmadi debate. It reminds me of an Oscar Wilde quote, which said something like … ”we did not accomlish great things; rather greatness was thrust upon us”.

Sorry to have borrowed your board for this recurring issue. The issue sort of got thrust upon me and I couldn`t walk away. Greatness was neither intended, nor the outcome of this discusison, as we all have witnessed. But then again, I have was always been a ``B`` student ... and for most part laugh at myself every now and then. Good luck.

Re: # 167

:)

To each his own.

teshah (#153),

I read Munir Report sometime ago. Yes, when asked, ullema could not agree to definition of a Muslim.

1973 hearings of “Ahmadi issue” were conducted behind closed doors. I don’t think content of this hearing is publicly available … including the speech you are referring to. It all remains a secret.

+++

samar #157... not a problem … and #160 … you’re welcome.

Zeena,

You keep insisting on “last prophet” but are unable to validate your claim. And note that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was also the odd one when he preached oneness of God.

Ahmadi-Muslims do not claim Mirza Sahib is the last prophet. We believe Allah will continue to raise prophets as He sees fit. Yes, this view is based on Quran and teachings of dear Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This also addresses your post #161.

You are going in circles ... with claims you have failed to validate. Pardon me if I fail to take you seriously. Good luck.

Chowk staff

Please, do not set an example of NEPOTISM. What, if, all of us do the samething using two or more ids?

Just show us your honesty.........samar1986 aka aishaM is one person.

this interactor admitted him/herself.................

If, this is the way, you wish this site to be, then ban me and I will come with multiple nicks........................to please you........

Moderators/Invigilators -

I suggest we also look into an earlier post where under Khurram`s name we had a redundant post -- #127. Let`s make sure that there are not 2 individuals trying to give an impression of one. Or, it may have been a system glitch ? Probably, the servers could not withstand the intellectual honesty on this board and gave up :)

Chowk Staff

If, you will not ban one ID of samar1986 aka aishaM, you will encourage Multiple nicks.

It will be hard for us to interact with multiple nicks of the same person. This is simply a murder of intellectual honesty.

Please, apply your chowk interact guidelines fairly and ban one active ID of samar1986 aka aishaM.

I am sure you will take care of this issue seriously.

#153 teshah sahib

No, we can not call Mirzaiis as Muslims IF they do not believe Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as their last prophet.

If, we start calling everyone Muslim then christains, jews and all others can be Muslim......

Followers of Jesus Christ=Christians
Followers of Hinduism=Hindus
Followers of David=Jews
Followrs of Prophet Mohd(PBUH)=Muslims
Followers of buddha=buddhists
Followers of Gurus(Nanak and more)=sikhs
Followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed=Mirzaais.

Simple.

Re: # 161

Zeena Ji

You say:
``If, we start calling everyone Muslim then christians, Jews and all others can be Muslim...... ``.

So that it! `Billi thiele se bahar aa gai`. You are afraid that your `writ` in authorizing one to call oneself a Muslim will be jeopardized if every body is allowed to be called a Muslim.

In the first place; why should any body like to be called a Muslim when it is no longer a of word of honour and certainly had never been for the Jews and Christians, believing in Islam but of Pre-Mohammedan vintage - vide Quran.

How absurd it is that it is only in the Pakland that when you call yourself a Hindu or an Ahmadi, etc., nobody would question your faith. But if you claim to be a Muslim your faith would become damn questionable and you would be
required to fill up a stupid affidavit declaring some fellow citizens of yours as non-Muslim and an unknown Indian, long since dead, to be an impostor. So technically all Muslims in the Parkland having been converted into `Halafi Muslims` who would in your opinion be authorized to accept their `Halaf Nammas` and give them a certificate of being a Muslim, a Mohammedan-one I mean? The truth is that the faith, being purely a subjective matter. it is only God who knows about Have you not read Quran which says:

Sura Hujurat (49), verse 14

049.014
YUSUFALI: The desert Arabs say, ``We believe.`` Say, ``Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, `We have submitted our wills to Allah,` For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.``

PICKTHAL: The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say ``We submit,`` for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: The dwellers of the desert say: We believe. Say: You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. ``

(Note: It is actually the word `Ahraab`, meaning plainly as all Arabs, in Quran which has been translated differently by different translators apparently to limit its applicability to a particular section of Arabs when it has obvious applicability to all humanity for all times.)

---

T

Chowk Staff

Show us your fairness. samar1982 is also using aishaM id.

regards

#146 ZahraJ dear

Relish the firecrackers, will you? You will never, in your lifetime, get this opportunity of enjoying Holi and Diwali at the same time.

Samar

This interactor samar1982 aka aishaM is showing

[[[chorri aur seena zorri]]

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#148 by aishaM on March 23, 2007 11:21am PT
Re: # 147, Sattar2,

[[Sattar Saheb,

I am surprised that while you have wasted so much of your precious time [[[on an imbecile]] you have ignored my very simple and innocent query. If you are not yet off to bed please find time to enlighten me on the question raised by me in #145.

Samar]]

samar1982 aka aishaM sahib/sahiba

Look who`s showing IDIOCY here, obviously you who is unable to comprehend my simple and straightforward posts and calling me imbecile while admitting here on front page that you are carrying TWO CHOWK IDS at the same time. You with your multiple nicks(samar1982 and aishaM) is unable to handle multiple Nicks, so just focus on ONE ID.

Sadly, it is interactors like you who carry multiple IDS @ the same time and chowk staff doesn`t even ban your one ID which is an open violation of chowk interact guidelines.
Please, show us INTELLECTUAL HONESTY AND USE ONLY ONE ID..

Yes, I am imbecile b/c I am intellectually honest and do not use multiple IDs like you.

sattar2
You are confused. You can NOT twist the whole Muslim faith according to your own confused state of mind. BTW, where it is written that Ghulam Ahmed was the last prophet?

Sattar, Zeena, Zahraj, etc.

Why are you indulging in a futile exercise? I will advise you all to read the `Munir Inquiry Report` on the subject. According to this Report the so called Ullema had failed to agree on the very definition of the term `Muslim`. But in spite of that they got the `Constitution of Pakistan` amended to turn it into a `Fatwa` declaring Ahmadies as `Non-Muslims` through an `in-camera` session of the Parliament during early 70`s. Ironically, when the whole constitution remains suspended or even abrogated this fatwa stands intact to create a new variety of muslims in Pakistan, the `Halfi Muslims`. How absurd is all this!

Btw, can any body provide me with the speech of the Head of Ahmadya community delivered in the said in camera session of the National Assembly?

#147 sattar2 sahib

No, Sir I am not calling you Non Muslim. You yourself calling all Islamic fundamental teachings as ODD. You are confused. Simple. You are proving yourself Non Muslim.

How come you are denying basic foundations of a religion by calling them ODD and then crying out loud that still you should be accepted as Muslim? Again, who is ODD here?

Just think about it.

aisha (#148),

I think I now better understand your inquiry. I was meaning to get to #145, but got tied up a bit. Anyway, here we go …

The student here may be violating teacher’s instructions, which may make him a bad follower. But a bad follower is a follower nevertheless.

Furthermore, this follower may have a radically different interpretation of the teacher’s instructions – and this further complicates the issue. The issue potentially becomes somewhat relative.

Sunni Muslims persecuting Ahmadi-Muslims is indeed low and despicable. I may disagree with oppressors in their interpretation of Islam, but would not go as far as declaring them non-Muslims. I may argue that some of their specific actions are against Islamic teachings, but declaring them altogether non-Muslims would not be appropriate.

In Quran Allah Himself uses the term “Muslim” for believers, without granting anyone any right to declare anyone otherwise. Belief, more than anything, is a matter of heart, and only Allah can judge what is in a person’s heart.

Furthermore, a person may knowingly and willingly violate commandments of Quran … involving patience, piety, humility, drinking, gambling … and more. But this does not make him a non-Muslim either. Human flesh is weak. Human heart is prone to err and to entertain thoughts regarding the forbidden. Our better selves are in constant battles against our egos, our primal instincts, and our inner lusts. Sometimes the better self wins, sometimes it loses. One must try to better himself/herself through prayers, reflection, effort … while seeking help and forgiveness from Allah Almighty. This is a life-long journey … where one attempts to establish a close relationship with his/her Creator and to better him/herself.

Islam offers a path along this journey. Becoming a Muslim is the first step in this journey along this particular path … where one places faith in Allah, Quran, and teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). According to Islam taught to us by the dear Prophet (pbuh), a person becomes Muslim by declaring belief in the kalima.

I recall reading a hadith where a slave-woman was being beaten by her master. I don’t remember the details, but the issue of her being a non-Muslim was somehow raised. The Prophet (pbuh) asked this woman who he (that is, the Prophet, pbuh) was. She replied “You are rasool Allah”. The prophet expressed his view that she indeed is a Muslim.

So this debate about definition of a Muslim is a non-starter in my view. It leads to fruitless discussion, which only enhances rigidity and intolerance. If a person claims to be a Muslim, he/she is a Muslim in my view. The matter rests between this individual and Allah …

Now in some cases a person’s religion may become an issue for others: for example, when dividing up the deceased’s inheritance, etc. In such cases the state/government should deal with the matter in fair, just manner, without indulging in rigid, intolerant definitions.

Re: # 149, Sattar2

My query was really very simple and straight forward. You have very kindly given an elaborated reply for which I am grateful to you. I got it`s essence and the subtle meaning. Thanks again.

#153, teshah saheb,

I completely agree with your post, sir. And when there is no clear-cut definition everyone should treat others (who wish to call themselves Muslims) Muslims. This is the fairest thing for Pak and Muslim world in general. But look, what the fanatics are bent upon doing. Really frustrating.

Samar

Re: # 149

Sattar -

Buhat Afsoas Kee Baat Hae :(
You need to attend to a genuine query asap. You should not be taking so much time :D

:)

Why don`t you arrange for a conference call with all the interested parties and address their questions one by one ? You will have a better chance of influencing them ;)

Good luck.

Zeena (#144),

You are jumping to erroneous conclusions here. I am not asking for you to accept me as a Muslim.

If you escalate the issue by emphasizing the “last prophet” notion, you should back up this notion with some reference. So far you have failed to provide basis of ``last prophet`` notion, while turning it into a devisive issue.

So all we have here is your unsubstantiated opinion. Making a statement, followed by “no ifs or buts; period” … sounds hollow. I am interested in Quran and what the dear Prophet (pbuh) taught us … and not in your hollow opinions.

Re: # 147, Sattar2,

Sattar Saheb,

I am surprised that while you have wasted so much of your precious time on an imbecile you have ignored my very simple and innocent query. If you are not yet off to bed please find time to enlighten me on the question raised by me in #145.

Samar

Re: # 149, sattar saheb : ref: #148,

This post belongs to me. Aisha is my cousin who happened to visit us yesterday evening and used my computer. She wrote many poems in her i-log and was careless enough to let it be inadvertently used by me. When I came back late in the evening, found the window open and out of foolishness, stupidity, ineptitude, rashness, imbecility, etc. etc and idioCY sent the message through her ID.

Aisha, I accept my fault and feel sorry to have used your ID. I request Chowk staff to excuse me.

Samar

RE:-#141 sattar2
[[ and now Zeena has posted some 8-odd points of her own (post #75).]]

Dear sattar sahib ji
Well, let me revise all those points one by one and let`s see which point is ODD and doesn`t suit your mind.

Here is my take for being Muslims. Anyone who accepts this with the honesty of his/her heart with unshakable faith is Muslim.

1:-[[God(Almighty) is ONE and believes in God(almighty) as super supreme..............]]

So, this is ODD point that I made up on my own...........So, by saying it as odd point you are nullifying the basic concept of being believer or non believer...........Being Muslim comes next. First you have to be believer to be called as Muslim.
and
[[Muslim believes and respects Prophet Mohd(PBUH). He/she will never ever utter any word of disrespect or any derogatory word or insults for HIM(PBUH).]]

Again, by calling this point an ODD point , you`re denying the basic concept of Islam(Foundation stone)........So, in your POV it is OK to NOT believe in Prophet Mohd(PBUH) and it is OK to insult and disrespect HIM and still you are Muslim............WoW!!! quite intelligent.

Just think...........if you can...........

2:-[[Muslim believes Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as the last prophet of all.]]

So, you do not believe in Prophet Mohd(PBUH) and do not believe that Prophet Mohd(PBUH) was the last brick and last chain of the Prophet hood.........and you find it ODD.........impressive........and still you wish to be called Muslim...........whom you`re playing here?

3:[[-Muslim if confused about some issue will always try to resolve it with the help of Quran and with the help of VALID hadiths( a guidance from our Prophet(PBUH), NULLIFYING invalid hadiths to clear all chaos.]]

Ohh, so this point is also ODD, So, you do not believe in Quran and then Valid Hadiths(real guidance from Our Last Prophet Mohd(PBUH)..........And you are still insisting that you are Muslim.....just think

4:-[[Muslim is free to ask questions about Quran , about Islam`s teachings and also about Prophet(PBUH)`s ways of life WITHOUT disrespecting or insulting Prophet(PBUH)`s personal life and HIS ways.]]

BTW, what is the ODD about this point? yes, Muslims and also other Non Muslims are free to exchange discussions about Quran/Prophet Mohd(PBUH)`s teachings..........So, you think it is ODD to ask questions and think to quench the thirst of curious minds to polish their ways of lives and to enhance their thought processes............So, you find it ODD NOT to disrespect Quran/Prophet Mohd(PBUH)`s teachings...........Wonderful!! Quite intelligent approach........carry on.

5:-[[There is a MAJOR difference between being INQUISITIVE maintaining decency, manners and certain class and being disrespectful.]]

So, this point is also ODD for you..........it wouldn`t be odd for you, if, someone doesn`t care for manners, doesn`t show certain class, doesn`t maintain decency and he/she must be disrespectful in his/her inquisitiveness about Quran and Prophet Mohd(PBUH)

6:[[-Believes in all Prophets prior to Last Prophet(PBUH).]]

What is ODD about this point ? Yes, there are total of One Lakh and 24 thousand Prophets including our Prophet Mohd(PBUH)...........Who was the last brick of all this house of Prophet hood( Mohd (PBUH) stated HIMSELF........,`` I am the last prophet and there will be NO prophet after me, I have completed this chain of Prophet hood.

So, Mohd(PBUH)`s saying was ODD...........Oh, really......I did not know that.....You`re right.........

7:-[[Believes Quran/kalima/five times prayers/fasting/zakat/Hajj]]

So,to believe in Quran/kalima/praying five times/fasting/hajj/zakat is ODD for you, where as these are the actual pillars of Islam..................You are genius.

8:-[[Believes in Valid Hadiths(Nullify invalid hadiths).]]

So, to believe in Mohd(PBUH) true and valid sayings which are for the betterment of the whole world are ODD...............You are NOT odd, Mr.sattar2............Yes, My points are all ODD.

Well, by calling my all above points ODD, you gave me your answer...............No need to discuss anything further................Just think....

Well, I am not a giving any fatwaaa, You are yourself denying all the basic concept of Islam and being Muslim , you are twisting the whole foundation of Islam and then coming to me saying , I have to accept you as a Muslim............just think about it.

Who is being ODD here? Just think about it.

Zeena (#140):

Merely making claims does not serve any purpose. You may as well insist that … earth is flat, no ifs and buts. Period.

You may consider Ahmadis non-Muslims, and that’s fine. But if you escalate the issue by insisting on ”last prophet” issue, you should back up your claim.

Your inability to do so underscores weakness of your own view. It’s something for you to consider as you go around passing fatwas of kuffr against others.

samar (#134),

Regarding treatment of non-Muslims, I am not sure which issue you are specifically referring to; but must add that … Islam teaches us to treat everyone with dignity, fairness, and compassion. Laws and codes that violate these principles are un-Islamic and unfair, in my view.

+++

teshah (#135),

Good point and thanks for your comments.

As Quran delineates in 49:14, being a Muslim does not necessarily mean that faith has entered a person’s heart. It is perhaps only the first step … whereby a person becomes a Muslim by declaring his faith in Allah and His Messenger (pbuh) by reciting kalmia -“There is none worthy of worship but Allah; Muhammad (pbuh) is messenger of Allah”.

Acquiring true faith, righteousness, humility, selflessness is a lifelong struggle … mostly within one’s own self, against one’s own ego. It is no easy task by any measure.

Leave it to fanatics to come up with their own elaborate definitions of “Muslim”. Each mullah has his own … and now Zeena has posted some 8-odd points of her own (post #75).

These definitions have little to do with Islam or Quran. They are mostly rooted in self-righteousness and an intolerant view of the world.

Re: # 141, Sattar2,

You can say that again, Sattar Saheb! Really, now I have grown more curious. Please read the following very carefully. I am writing this as best as I can.

Suppose a teacher teaches his student many good things and forbids many bad things. Student, who claims to be the teacher`s staunch follower, does the opposite, engage in all the forbidden things and leaves aside good things. Should his claim to be the teacher`s follower be tolerated?

In Pak majority of Sunnis not only consider Ahmadias as Non-Muslims but subject them to persecution and harassment. Even the Sunni dominated Pak constitution has condemned them to be Non-Muslims. They are killed, are not allowed to call themselves Muslims. Are these Sunnis the follower of Islam, i.e. are they Muslims?

Kindly, satisfy my urge to know on the basis of your last post and Quran. I hope you understood my very specific question correctly and enlighten me as pointedly as you can.

Thanks.

Samar

#132 sattar2 sahib

As a matter of fact, Muhammad is the last link of the chain of Prophets ...that is the only truth that makes us Muslims.

Everything else is false and whoever doesn`t believe in the above is NON-Muslim.

Any person who believes Mirza Ahmed as His/Her last Prophet or even Prophet is Not Muslim.Period.
There is NO ifs and buts. If you still insists in Not believing In the above and still insist that Mirza Ghulam was your last Prophet or whatever, and still be called Muslim.

Sorry, No real Muslim will compromise on this. Just go outside of this web site, ask any Muslim............even a layman will tell you the truth.

Now If you wish to twist Islam for your own wishes towards a false way, then I can`t help you with it.


#136 teshah sahib

No absolutely NOT I do not mind, you have your own POV which can be different than mine.
We both are two free and civilized individuals who can agree to disagree and who can disagree to agree..............but, don`t take every disagreement as some sort of personal attack like majority of interactors on this web site do, the moment you disagree with their opinions, they start attacking and counter attacking you and then play all innocent.

Thank God You and I are different league than all this crap.

Anyway, you raised quite interesting points.........Let me answer them point by point whatever I can with my very limited wisdom.

#1:-[[But, whereas it was mainly against the women previously it is against men now]]
Yes, hudood ordinance was against women, and I totally agree that it is now can be the opposite to harm innocent men.
Then it should be strict judiciary duty and strict laws for the protection of innocent men. In Pakistani patriarchal society, trust me even if hudood ordinance is no more there, raped women will be the only one who won`t come surface just for the fear of their men and for the fear of their reputation. Even then men are @ a big advantage for merely being men.
#2:-[[As regards MM`s case I am still doubtful if she was raped at all]]

Sir jii
With all due respect what kind of logic is this? C`mon a woman is raped infront of the whole bunch of people by a bunch of evils and here you are still persisting that she wasn`t raped...............WaWawa........Kiaa baat haiy jii aap kii.

So, that means you do not consider anything rape at all or the impression I am getting from your point is you do not think rape is a serious crime at all. Why to bother?

No, my dear sir ji
Miss MM was raped and her rapists got away with it in the beginning and latter only b/c of American media poor lady got some recognition.................

My POV for rape crime is to hang rapist to death. No less. No compromise, no ifs or buts.

#3:-[[ wonder why are you so selective in honouring MM when there are so many other nobler women who went through worse ordeal of rape.]]

Oh, YES I do with all my heart, I do support all the poor and oppressed women, but, majority of them are either underestimated(not reported), so how will I know? That happens in that society where majority of rape cases are garbaged under the carpet.

#4:-[[And by the way what you say about the sex-slaves whose fathers and brothers do not watch them dragged away but are killed fighting to save them. ]]

Yes, I agree with you on this point, my heart goes out for them. I wish we could make some strict law to protect those sex slaves. I believe Govt. should pass some amendment for those women who are forced to be sex slaves and try to free them and give them protection in the form of some beneficial institutions...........which can also help them to stand on their own feet...................Thanks for the thought provoking points.

samar (#126),

The general point I was trying to make about journalists is that … they stay employed if their material gets published. At times they may push boundaries to spice up stories. This should not be news to anyone. Read everything, but with a grain of salt.

If this killing was instigated by religious fanaticism, then Sarwar was probably no more than a little pawn. And pawns get sacrificed left and right … there are 8 of them for every king even in the game of chess. And life is a lot more complex than a game of chess.

And finally … a person who considers himself a Muslim is a Muslim in my view. Quran vests no authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim. The matter rests with Allah Almighty and is best left as such. So Sunnis, Shiites, Sufis etc. are all Muslims - no one has any right to declare them otherwise. If an Ahmadi-Muslim majority country declares them non-Muslims, I would surely consider such laws oppressive and un-Islamic – absolutely - shame on me otherwise.

Re: # 133

Sattar2

You say:

``And finally … a person who considers himself a Muslim is a Muslim in my view. Quran vests no authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim.``

Certainly, according to the Quran, we can be Muslims without even having any faith - vide Sura Hujrat (49), verse 14. But the Paky Constitution denies this right to Paky Muslims who have to submit a `Halaf-Nama` (To whom God knows as all Pakies are `Halfi Muslims`), to be treated as Muslims officially.

I wonder how can they protest if other countries call them terrorists when their own government does not give them right to call themselves Muslims sans faith even.

Re: # 133 sattar2,

A very kind and heartening reply, sir! Thanks! You have endorsed my point of view, though I was a bit confused. I am not well versed with Quran or Hadith. I am feeling satisfied that even then I could grasp the real meaning of the basic teachings of Quran.
As regards treating each other Non-muslims I wish to ask you this : Do you approve of what is happening in Pak? Are not the sunni dominated laws of Pak `Oppressive and UN-ISLAMIC`. Not only laws, general public and even INTELLECTUALS also think in the same way. Are you ashamed of all this, then? Do you hope to find any way out of this mess? Or you will waste your time engaging in useless talk with real base and adamant intellectuals.

Re: # 132 I am further enlightened by this post too.

It is really foolish to believe that any one can claim to be the last prophet (or last of anything for that matter) in this infinite world which does not appear to have any beginning or any end.

Samar

Zeena (#120):

When did Allah ever say that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last prophet? If he was the last prophet, it should be mentioned in Quran. No? Once we have discussed Quran, we can review ahadith as well ... if you so desire.

And please spare me this “ask any Muslim” diatribe … it sounds hollow. If you cannot validate your claim, it is merely a baseless opinion. Thanks, but no, thanks.

I`d rather learn Islam from Quran and Allah`s Prophet (pbuh). Mere opinions do not cut it for me.

#129 by khurram,

Thanks!

what I was trying to post earlier ....

FYI
Dawn has removed the word `cleric` from its story.

GUJRANWALA, March 20: An anti-terrorism court on Tuesday sentenced Mohammad Sarwer to death on two counts and fined him Rs200,000 in the murder case of Punjab Minister for Social Welfare Zille Huma Usman.

The court ordered that Rs100,000 of the fine would be given to the heir of the deceased. If the convict fails to make the payment, he will have to undergo one year of rigorous imprisonment.

The court also awarded two years imprisonment to the accused and fined him Rs10,000 for possessing an illicit weapon.

According to the prosecution, Sarwer killed the woman minister on Feb 20 when she was going to address an open court at the PML house in Satellite Town. He was arrested after the murder and a case was registered against him.

The court had issued charge-sheet on March 9 and later recorded statements of 15 prosecution witnesses.

Re: # 129 Khurram,

Thank God, our hands are clean! The bullets did not belong to us!!

Samar

Re: # 131

samar -

:)

Re: # 137, ZaharaJ,

I liked your smile? Thank you!

Samar

Re: # 138

Samar - I wished we could use a few *real* emoticons on the interact page. Rest assured, I would have used them sparingly :) Now, can I please request you to spell my first name correctly for future reference? It`s Zahra. It`s neither Jahra nor Zahara. There is a difference. Secondly, my perspectives and ego stay intact whether or not I am accorded with a ``madam`` greeting.

Keep your humor(with a tinge of sarcasm) and enthusiasm alive ;)

Take Care.

Re: # 143, ZahraJ dear,

Believe me, your emotions have reached me with *real* content. Didn`t you find mine *real*? So sorry to have miss-spelled your name but you can take some clue from Shakespeare? Lastly, but not the least, do you like the replacement?

All the best!

Samar

Re: # 146

Point digested :)

what the ...!!!
Post 127 is not mine.

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Sorry for typo in #124

Corrected. Please, read it as.............
Why I always roam around in Pakistan with NO Purdha and still alive?}}

Thanks

#123


Yes, this is a typical serial killer`s psycho pathology. If, that would be the case then why so many ladies with out purdha are roaming around in Pakistan and nobody shoots them?

Why I always roam around in Pakistan in Purdha and still alive?

My whole point is that we shouldn`t accuse religions if some psycho path(fantaic mullah) murdered multiple women including the Paki Lady minister.

Such happenings are also in USA, where there is strict law. Agian, question is why it happens in America when there is NO such thing as religious extremist there?

#121 teshah sahib

Sorry, I have absolutely different stand for this issue.

So, you`re in the favour of Hudood ordinance? hmmmm

Well, hudood ordinance is the most cruel , inhumane ordinance ever on this mother earth.
Thank God, it is no more there to haunt innocent Pakistani women.

As for as your point is quite valid that now what is the protection for innocent men who would be falsely accused of rape by whores?

Well, then rape charges always are seen by some evidence by strict law and order situation. Any where in the world not always innocent men are being accused of commiting rape.

And, as for as Miss MM`s case is. I believe Miss MM DESERVES all the LOVE, compassion, support and care from all of us. And I am thankful to American media that gave the poor brave lady full support and helped her in standing on her own feet.

Miss MM is a proud Pakistani Lady who did not surrender her rights to be treated as more than equal humanbeing.

Miss MM`s rape was the worst stigma in the history of Pakistan and also the more shameful act was to ban Miss MM to travel abroad by the current Govt.

And even more shameful was to use disgusting language for Miss MM by President Musharaf.

Chief of state is supposed to be the father of the nation, not some cruel plunderer..........

Re: # 122

Zeena dear (If you don`t mind)

No dear you are wrong in presuming that I am in favour of Hadood Ord. In fact I totally agree with you that it is as you say, `` the most cruel , inhumane ordinance ever on this mother earth``. But, whereas it was mainly against the women previously it is against men now. As appears from the recent media reports a flood gate of accusation of rape against men seems to have been opened after the recent amendment made therein, obviating the necessity of four eye witnesses.

As regards MM`s case I am still doubtful if she was raped at all. If at all it was a `consensual` or legal rape committed at the instance of a People`s Court (Village Panchayat). I wonder why are you so selective in honouring MM when there are so many other nobler women who went through worse ordeal of rape. And by the way what you say about the sex-slaves whose fathers and brothers do not watch them dragged away but are killed fighting to save them.

Re: # 136, teshah saheb,

Why are you so much worried about the publicity and money MM got. She got all this because she was more courageous and outspoken. Hasn`t she risked even her life to expose so much of the rot brought upon by the obscurantist, barbaric and religo-patriarchal Paki society. Would not this help correct the injustice committed against other women and their loved ones?

Samar

sattar2#119

Sorry, dear that is absolutely NOT my criterion. That is from Allah and ask any Muslim about this criterion.

If, you do not believe in this criterion. Continue your belief.

To you your belief and to us our belief.

Zeena (re #116),

That was YOUR criterion of a Muslim. Thanks, but no, thanks.

Merely insisting on something does not make it valid. Try to validate this belief (last prophet) from Quran. Can you?

Apparently Shah Waliullah was not a Muslim, according to your definition. Neither was Ibne Arabi.

You may also believe in Prophet Issa (pbuh) residing above clouds in flesh and blood, and call it Islam. My understanding of Islam differs from yours. And kids believe what they are taught. Santa Clause comes to mind, as another example. Once again, thanks, but no, thanks.

samar (#115),

The term “moulvi” is often used loosely, though I remain unclear on its meaning and connotation.

Is “moulvi” someone who has studied Islam in depth? Or is he someone who takes care of a mosque for an allowance, perhaps while teaching others to read and write, etc.? I dunno …

There is nothing stopping a locksmith from doing any of the above; don’t know if this answers your question #2 …

Newspapers say a lot of things that may not make sense. After all, journalists, like most of us, do have bills to pay, families to feed, and mother-in-laws to deal with. Some news sources may have agendas of their own … so they spin accordingly. And life goes on. This moulvi/locksmith issue may have been an honest mistake or part of a bigger twist …

Lastly, I do see a tendency among ullema to promote intolerance, violence, and hatred in the name of Islam. Is this killing an isolated incident or part of a bigger pattern? Your guess is as good as mine; devil is in the details.

Re: # 118 Sattar Saheb,

Thanks for enlightening me on `Moulvi or cleric` who, in your opinion, definitely relate to religious places even if they might not be much educated. Secondly, there is no bar for a blacksmith to be a Moulvi. Means, a blacksmith can be a Moulvi too. Thanks again.

But I`m puzzled to know that Paki journalists feed their children by promoting blacksmiths to the level of Moulvis. This is news to me. Even after this enlightenment doubts persist in my mind as to who should be paying the journalists for siding with a murderer. Now I am more curious to know this. I am really perplexed.

Last one I could understand because I had thought the same, i.e. `the ullemas are promoting intolerance, violence, and hatred in the name of Islam.` Now, it implies that they are promoting all this amongst blacksmiths, lock....,etc as well as amongst Moulvis and clerics. I agree. But why these graduated blacksmiths allow themselves to be ditched and to be called a psychopathic after they have done their duties.

I have one more query. (Perhaps,) I am a Ahmadia Muslim and don`t consider a Sunni as a Muslim. ARE Sunnis Muslims? Or, ARE sunnis Non-Muslims? Shall I be empowered to give some final verdict and deal with them accordingly in my future Ahmadia majority country? I think I will do wrong if I do this. You may CONSIDER anything about them but can not say that they ARE as such. This will be a blasphemy because in my opinion final verdict can be given by ALLAH and ALLAH only. Kindly enlighten on the basis of Quran.

Samar

People

So, what if the serial killer was a ,``maulvi or cleric``. Serial killer could be a computer geek, engineer or MD............a psychopath can be of any profession.

#113 sattar2

Sir

There is NO compromise in the following. This is the exact criteria of being Muslim.

{You have to strongly believe in Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as the LAST Prophet of ALL the Prophets.}
There is NO ifs and buts. There is no alternative. There is NO confusion about it among Muslims.

If you do believe in the above then you are MUSLIM, if You do not believe in the above and still looking for alternative than you are Non Muslim.

Even a small Muslim kid can tell you that.

Re #111, 112:

If views held by ullema are a reference, clerics very well could’ve played a role in instigating the killing. So yes, Sarwar himself was not a cleric, if this is any consolation.

(On the same note, his execution will probably not improve matters much either.)

We are debating existence of a tree, while ignoring the forest.

Zeena (#103),

I appreciate your stance of ”live of let live” … and that an Ahmadi has the right to consider himself a Muslim. It echoes my criticism of laws that aim to lock up Ahmadis for practicing Islam. Such laws are oppressive and violate spirit and message of Islam.

You further clarify that you are not an authority for any religion. I am not an authority on Islam either … and neither are ullema who frequently pass fatwas of kuffr against other sects within Islam. In Quran Allah Himself uses the term “Muslim” for believers, without vesting any authority in anyone to declare another a non-Muslim.

I recall reading a hadith where the dear Prophet (pbuh) stated that … when one declares another a non-Muslim, he himself goes outside the circle of Islam.

I also appreciate your definition of a Muslim. It differs from mine, and that’s alright. We can amicably disagree … without any animosity or need for either of us to be imprisoned.

+++

Since you’ve repeatedly raised the issue, I’ll briefly comment on “last prophet” issue:

My understanding of Quran, as well as ahadith, is that door to prophethood remains open. Divine Law got completed in form of Quran. Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the noblest of all prophets. Allah may continue to raise prophets to guide people back to Islam, to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), as people go astray. This role of prophets, as messengers raised by Allah to warn and to remind people, is consistent with prophethood outlined in Quran.

Notion of continuation of prophethood has been supported by several well-known scholars from Islamic history.

I can cite several references – from Quran, ahadith, as well as other scholars - in support of this viewpoint … but will digress for now.

Re #112,

Yes, you are right. This is an error on Dawn`s part.
Let`s see if I can get them to correct it.

Re: # 112, # 114,

Out of curiosity I checked up with other Paki newspapers and found that the News International calls the murderer a `Moulvi`.

Daily Times editorial too treats him a Moulvi.

As Khurram says in #112, Dawn prefers him to be a cleric.

Sattar Saheb, Could you enlighten me on the following, please?

1) According to Quran is there any difference between `Moulvi` and `cleric` or they have same meanings?

2) According to Quran can a blacksmith (or locksmith or whatsoever) be a Moulvi or cleric?

3) If not, why all these newspapers are bent upon raising the status of a blacksmith (or any other smith for that matter) to a cleric or a Moulvi ?

4) If yes, than does it make any difference if he is blacksmith, or locksmith or a Moulvi or a cleric?

Kindly do say something. I am dying to know.

Samar

My source -

None used the term ``cleric`` for GS. They considered him a fanatic or an extremist.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,259865,00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,253125,00.html

---

Female Pakistani Minister Shot Dead for Refusing to Wear Veil
Wednesday, February 21, 2007

By Devika Bhat and Zahid Hussain


A Pakistani minister and woman’s activist was shot dead Tuesday by an Islamic extremist for refusing to wear the veil.

Zilla Huma Usman, the minister for social welfare in Punjab province and an ally of President Pervez Musharraf, was killed as she was about to deliver a speech to dozens of party activists, by a “fanatic”, who believed that she was dressed inappropriately and that women should not be involved in politics, officials said.

Usman, 35, was wearing the shalwar kameez worn by many professional women in Pakistan, but did not cover her head.

The attack happened in Gujranwala, 120 miles southeast of Islamabad, where the minister’s office is based. As Usman, 35, stepped out of her car – where she was greeted by her co-workers throwing rose petals - the attacker pulled out a pistol and fired a single shot at close range, hitting her in the head. She was airlifted to hospital in the provincial capital Lahore, but died soon afterwards.

The gunman, Mohammad Sarwar, was overpowered by the minister’s driver and arrested by police. A stone mason in his mid 40s, he is not thought to belong to any radical group but is known for his fanaticism. He was previously held in 2002 in connection with the killing and mutilation of four prostitutes, but was never convicted due to lack of evidence.

Sarwar appeared relaxed and calm when he told a television channel that he had carried out God’s order to kill women who sinned. “I have no regrets. I just obeyed Allah’s commandment,” he said, adding that Islam did not allow women to hold positions of leadership. “I will kill all those women who do not follow the right path, if I am freed again,” he said.

“He is basically a fanatic,” Raja Basharat, the Punjab Law Minister, said. “He is against the involvement of women in politics and government affairs.” A police statement added: “He considers it contrary to the teachings of Allah for a woman to become a minister or a ruler. That’s why he committed this action.”

“He killed her because she was not observing the Islamic code of dress. She was also campaigning for emancipation of women,” said Nazir Ahmad, a local officer.

Usman, a married mother of two sons, joined the pro-Musharraf Pakistan Muslim League after being elected in 2002. A strong supporter of the President’s policy of “enlightened moderation” - designed to tackle extremism - she was appointed to her current post in December last year according to her government biography.

In April 2005, she encouraged the holding of a mini-marathon involving female competitors in Gujranwala – an event which led to riots after police intervened to stop armed Islamic activists from disrupting the race. She also ran a small fashion business from her base in the town.

Shaukat Aziz, the Prime Minister, paid tribute to the minister, describing her as a “committed and dedicated politician”. “During her short span as minister, she took several steps for the welfare of the people of Punjab,” he said. Zobaida Jalal, the federal Minister for Social Welfare, added that Usman’s death was an “unbearable loss to the cause of women rights and their empowerment”.

General Musharraf, whose support for the US-led war on terror has caused consternation among Pakistan`s hardline elements, has promised to address women’s rights as part of his more moderate agenda.

But analysts said that the murder of the female minister highlighted the failure of his government in curbing Islamic extremism. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in a recent report said that violence against women had increased alarmingly, with some of the incidents incited by Mullahs opposed to women’s emancipation.

Islamists also campaigned against the Women Protection Bill which was recently passed by parliament, which seeks to provide protection to women who have suffered discrimination under Islamic Sharia laws.

Women make up just over 20 per cent of the lower house of parliament, according to the country’s main human rights group, and there are three women ministers in the cabinet of the federal government.

But widespread discrimination against females continues to be a problem in what remains a male-dominated society, particularly in the countryside, where most Pakistanis live.

---

Pakistani Judge Sentences Man to Death for Murdering Female Minister
Tuesday , March 20, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan —

A man accused of shooting a provincial minister because he thought women should be kept out of high office was convicted of her murder and sentenced to death in a Pakistani court Tuesday, officials said.

Mohammed Sarwar was arrested on Feb. 21, shortly after he shot and killed Zil-e-Huma Usman, the Punjab Minister for Social Welfare, in Gujranwala, about 120 miles southeast of the capital, Islamabad.

Tariq Iftikhar, a judge at Gujranwala`s anti-terrorism court, convicted him Tuesday of murder and sentenced him to death by hanging, court official Abdul Wahid said.

It was not immediately clear whether Sarwar would appeal.

Police have said that Sarwar confessed to shooting Usman and told investigators that he had been targeting ``fashionable`` women he believed were ``spreading obscenity`` in Pakistani society and also that he believed that women were unsuited to holding high office.

Police said he was also a suspect in the killing of several prostitutes.

On Tuesday, prosecutor Shahid Muzaffar said the man pleaded not guilty during the trial, but that prosecutors had presented ``solid evidence`` to prove his responsibility.

Usman was a provincial leader of the ruling PML-Q party, which supports President Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Police said she had arrived in Gujranwala to address a gathering of her party when Sarwar shot her in the head at close range. She died hours later in hospital.

#109 by khurram,

Just a small correction. He`s not a `cleric `. He`s a locksmith.

I know you`ve reproduced whatever you`ve read, but this propaganda is wrong. Since you`re a serious interactor, please determine the facts and post a correction.

Regards.

Khurram - Thanks. Once the sentence is actually conducted, please post the update. Often times, the final verdict gets lost among various appeals. And such quick and speedy trials give a false impression to the world that justice was actually granted.

Dear Samar - Thank you for your insightful and poignant thoughts.

From Dawn,

LAHORE, Pakistan, March 20 (AFP) Ani anti-terrorism court Tuesday sentenced cleric Mohammad Sarwar to death for shooting dead a female minister because she was not wearing a veil, officials said. He was convicted a month after he gunned down at a public meeting Zilla Huma Usman, the social welfare minister for Punjab province, in Gujranwala town. Judge Tariq Iftikhar sentenced Sarwar to death on two counts, one for the murder of Zilla Huma and the other for spreading terrorism by the action, court official Amjad Ali said. Sarwar was also ordered to pay a fine of 200,000 rupees (3,333 dollars), he said. The bearded 40-year-old cleric did not react when the judge read out the sentence. The cleric had told police after the murder on February 20 that he killed Zille Huma because she was not wearing Islamic dress including a veil and that he opposed the involvement of women in politics.

#105
samar1982 sir

WoW! Phew.

Such strong words for others. You know what only one thing for you, stop being CONDESCENDING.

Actually every strong word that you used for others fit for you b/c obviously you`re calling us butchers while fact of the matter is you`re butchering yourself and others by using such careless words . You are exactly repeating the same what Madam Zahra did and I am sure will continue shwoing us her irresponsible online behaviour.

take care

JaharaJ,

See! They have really succeeded in kicking you out from your own house. Now, remember few things :

1) You are not a Masiha or Paigamber to convert others.
2) It is easy to wake up a sleeping person but impossible to wake up a pretending sleeper. (in Urdu : Soeai hueai ko to jagaya ja sakta hai par sone ka bahana karne wale ko aap jaga naheen sakte.)
3) Always try first to find out your own type to talk. If you don`t find any than at least find someone sensible of other type. If you don`t even find some sensible person from the other camp, go to sleep or at least pretend to be sleeping.
4) Never make friends or even talk to loggerheads, mads and devils. They will always land you in Jahannam, like Pak is in today. Incidentally Pak has all three types namely: whole of Muslim world, mullas/talibanis and America whereas you are fortunate to have only two, mads and devils.

Hope to see you again.

Samar

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#97, 98, 100, 102 : ZahraJ madam,

For two days I was too occupied somewhere so could not attend Chowk. Now here I come and find you all shattered. In fact, something kept ringing inside me all these days and that was what I see here. I had warned you in my #80 but you did not give any heed to it. When you stumble across such obscurantist, incorrigible, senseless and hopelessly delinquent people this is what invariably happens. I am quite new to Chowk, but could grasp their nature, their capacity to understand, their crafty trickeries and motives, their mischievous rogueries within a span of a few interactions.

Now I am sorry, you have become irrelevant on your own board. Here, I must say one thing in their favour i.e. they did not attack you without warning. Many times they had hinted that they were real butchers.

Samar

#102

Zahra Madam

I believe all the women politicians should show their solidarity on this issue and they should raise their voices for the saftey and for the security of all forefront women.

cheers.

Re: # 104

Zina

Security by whom; by men whom you can then accuse of rape and dig a gold mine like MM? It was only Allah Who could wash away the `tohmat` of zina levelled against Bibi Aeysha: Who will do this now? Yousaf (AHS) had languished for years in jail as no Allah could come to his help to prove his innocence from the `tohmat` of attempt of rape of Zulekha. Any whore can now blackmail any man by accusing him of rape as the law no longer requires them to produce four witnesses to prove that and the very act of being raped has become a matter of honour by MM.

#95 sattar2 sahib

With all due respect, if, you wish to call your self Muslim. You`re most welcome.

I am NOT an authority for any religion. I am just a humble soul who believes in ,``Live and let live``

But, my understanding for being Muslim is ,`` You have to believe in ONE God(Almighty), which you do(as per your statement) and then you have to firmly believe in Prophet Mohd(PBUH) as the LAST prophet, you have to believe that there will be NO more Prophets coming in future till doomsday``.

Now, if, you believe in the ABOVE statement`s each and every word. Yes, you are Muslim.

But, if, you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is last prophet or even prophet, then You are NOT Muslim. Simple.

Now tell me do you believe in above or NOT?

If, you take Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as some religious figure for you, you have every right to do so. Or, if MIrza Ahmed is some saint for you, go ahead with your belief.

But, I am simply telling you the straight forward criteria to be Muslim. But, still If you persist who am I to tell you about your personal belief? Thanks

#96 aslam644

Sir,

Trust me what ever I stated is TRUE , NOTHING BUT true. You do not need Billion dollars for these contributions, just you need full time committment and motivation with the honesty of your heart.

My husband, I and some of our friends contribute for all such plans. This month we are arranging for a fund raising dinner for more plans to come.

I am not here to prove my contribution. This is anon web site. If you do not believe my post. Don`t. If you DO, Do.

Take care

Is the current climate in Pakistan conducive to women in politics?

What if another woman politician suffers the same fate as ZHU did? Shouldn`t the women request proper security if they are to serve the public ? Otherwise, is it even worth it to serve a thankless nation at the expense of one`s life?

I wished the women politicians had shown some camaraderie and support (right or wrong) like the lawyers showed for their CJ.

Zahra madam #100

Look who started irrelevant discussions on this board? YOU...........

Wawawa.....here you are harrassing me with all your droppings and hissy fits and when I reply , you call it hissy fit.

COOL DOWN, don`t get hyper. Just get hold of yourself. Please, show us some decorum on this board.

This is PERFECT EXAMPLE OF NAPOTISM.

Chowk Admin - I will request you to remove the past interacts by Zeena since she has hijacked my board with her irrelevant posts. She is desperate for attention based on all the *philanthropic* work she has done. Please give her a corner on Chowk where she can be put on a pedestal.

Please also give her a dictionary and a thesaurus so that she can choose her own vocabulary and does not steal from others` posts.

Thank you.

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With the current ongoing fiascos, who can expect the courts to grant justice to anyone. There is no institutional or individual sanctity left.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/pakistan.justice/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/03/19/pakistan.justice.reut/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/03/19/pakistan.justice/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/03/16/pakistan.justice.ap/index.html

Zeemax (BMH/MMAA) -

I would like to bring a closure to our chit chat. Not everyone loves to carry their religion on their sleeves. That shows height of insecurity and lack of tolerance in my opinion. That`s the key reason for the bad publicity Pakistan receives all over the world. You just need to click on BBC, CNN and various other international channels and you will be pleasantly awakened. Even Chowk did not have intolerance before. People, like you, violate the decorum and the sense of peace in a community which can easily thrive on differences in beliefs and ideas. Hopefully, you are a grown-up man or adult. Just for your information, vulgarity has neither any substance nor standing to make a point except for revealing your own ``inadequacies``. You seem to be blessed in that regard ;)

If you are truly interested in being good to your fellow women (and not being charitable to them since you dislike the said virtue), I suggest you assist your friend in centralizing her scattered thoughts. You can be the typist to put together a nice write-up for Chowk and earn the sawab. After all, for your types, it`s the sawab that counts only ;)

Not that I owe you a clarification, but you should learn to differentiate when a reference is made to highlight the dark mindsets vs. conduct an interview. You, sir, are an idiot par excellence :) I will leave it at that.

There is no need for further exchange.

Polite Wishes.

Zeena (#75):

We seem to be discussing two different issues here.

You may consider Ahamdis non-Muslims … and that’s fine. It is not an issue at all.

Your comparison of Ahmadis to Jews/Christians is erroneous. Jews/Christians neither accept Quran nor Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Ahmadis accept Quran, as well as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Note this critical difference here.

If an Ahmadi abused Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), he is clearly contradicting Ahmadi-Muslim faith. Your friend may call herself a Mirzai, but that is irrelevant. Furthermore, people who called you names should be ashamed of themselves. They reveal their own shallowness with such low behavior.

+++

The issue I have raised is … making it a crime for an Ahmadi to consider himself a Muslim.

Note that I am not asking that you accept him as a Muslim. But does he have the right to consider himself a Muslim? Conversely, is it fair to imprison an Ahmadi for peacefully practicing Islam?

[I cannot emphasize this enough: Ahmadis have utmost respect for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and regard him as the most exalted prophet of Allah. Similarly, they have utmost respect for Quran and treat it as the Final Word from Allah Almighty. They believe in worshipping Allah Almighty and following teachings of Quran and the Prophet, pbuh.]

Conversely, would you think it fair if Muslims in USA are locked up for peacefully practicing Islam?

Some of them may preach hatred against USA and even support suicide bombings. But would it be fair to punish the entire Muslim community for beliefs/actions of a few?

+++

In order to be fair, you must judge Ahmadi-Muslims and other Muslims using the same criteria. View the issue from different angles to come up with a balanced answer.

#86 by ZahraJ Re: # 84

Zeemax - So are you saying that you are not a psychopath ? If that`s so, why do you have to OBSERVE an inconsistent and contradictory pattern on each board -

Whoever told you I come here to be `consistent` and non-contradictory`?

I only come here to beat up on hinjew bhindiddicks, diarrhoeal mirzais, pakistani munafiq fake retards, and zero-rated mummy`/daddy type pseudo begmaat :-)

(P.S. But I do have some good posts/FP articles to my credit .....)

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All of you guys.

Sorry for some typos in #87.

Zahra J madam

I did not wish to write all my committments for the poor People of Pakistan here, but, since you have accused me of being hypocrite and not following Prophet(PBUH)`s ways.

I found it essential to write all my works. My intentions are never to prove myself self righteous or I am great. My intentions are to show you some light which obviously you do not have, when you are so quick to call me any names on any board with NO reason.

I wished to show you who is hypocrite? You and only you.
Period.

Who is mentally unstable? You and only you and your interactions are an open proof of your state of mind.

ZahraJ #79

ZahraJ

I know it is useless to engage in any interactions with you on a sensible level. But let me try here.

a:- Where did you see my inconsistency about my respect for any religion?prove it.

I have never ever disrespected anyone`s religious beliefs in any derogatory way. Period.
Show me one interact or post by me where I disrespected others belief.

b:-Where did I show hypocrisy about Prophet(PBUH) and Quran?

I always stood up for the insults and derogatory remarks and posts by abusive chowkies (recently by Non Muslim Mirzaais) about Prophet(PBUH). I am proud that online and offline (my real life) I am a very humble, true, decent and straight forward Muslim person who is same inside and out.

Did it occur to you that Nobody care , if, these mirzaais on chowk insult Prophet(PBUH) you do not care, b/c you are , too scared to stand up against their abusive behaviour about our Prophet(PBUH).

It proves you are hypocrite. I would been hypocrite, if, I would have kept quite and pretend nothing matters. Like majority of you do right over there. You are dead with No soul left.

I could be very friendly with those abusive mirzaais who have made it a daily habit to insult Prophet(PBUH), if, I would have ignored them and would have said,``yes, yes you are right``.

Sorry, I am NOT hypocrite that`s why I did not and do not accept these Mirzaais who are abusive to Prophet(PBUH) and who dod not accept them as their Last Prophet(PBUH) as Muslims.

I am proud to be courageous to stand for the right of Prophet(PBUH), if, someone will insult HIM in a very decent way.

#3:- I have my whole life`s committment with Pakistani poor people and specially for poor oppressed women who live in remote areas, I have supplied 60 houses to poor Pakistani widows in Earthquake. I have gone to help those poor Patients in earthquake areas myself to treat them multiple times and opened out door patient facilities with the help of Pakistani health care providers.

We opened a paraplegic center for earthquake victims in rawalpindi Holy family hospital and finincialy supported them for 1 year with all the medical expenses and with all the moral support as well. We practically supplied their food and clohtings as well plus brand new wheel chairs.

#4:- I , my husband and few other friends opened Pakistan`s second burn center for poor people in Pakistan in Rawalpindi where with God`s blessings patients are being tgreated successfully equally with out spending a penny out of their pockets.

#5:- I always go to different SOS VILLAGES in Pakistan, mostly rawalpindi to provide anything possible out of my hard earned money.

#6:- I am going to open a charity hospital in another remote area of Northern Pakistan soon. I am doing homework on that.
#7:- I am also planning to go to some very poor African countries where I can be of any help.

#8:- We are also planning to team up with sahara foundation to help support hospital in Nahrowaal, Punjab.

#9:- We are also planning to open a center for poor oppressed Pakistani women to give them some opportunities to stand on their own feet in this struggle against poverty.

And trust me I am NOT doing anything for my own profit or for any NGOs.

And you are calling me hypocrite.............Wawawawa

c:- You madam, Zahra have insulted me in another board as well which was so uncalled for.

And now here you are insulting me again with different sets of insults.....SHAME ON YOU.

You are AN UNCOUTH, uncivilized, barbaric , illiterate, ignorant(Badtameez) pagal woman who is just so confused and incoherent that she doesn`t know what she is saying and she doesn`t know why she is saying............................

And this is your article, all of us are here for this discussion with our own POVS. I did not abuse you or anyone. I did not even address anything to you.

And here are you going all maniac with your almost gaali gaaloch (street women type) fights with me and with some other interactors.

If you are unable to take the pressure of these different POVs and these different sensible interacts/discussions then stop writting any article on FP or else For heaven`s sake show all of us, some DECENY and manners and keep some decorum on your own board.

You are just a hopeless crazy woman with lots of crap.

Re: # 87
either you are billionaire or this is all hype

Re: # 87

Zeena - You are indeed a queen of compassion and human concern. It may have been an oversight. After all, I am a simple human being. I have not received an invite to a council where only the pious, compassionate and intellectually honest people are invited. I would only like to offer my heartfelt contributions to make sure that you have identified all your efforts.

You forgot to add the following:

a. You saw your fellow women in Lahore jumping to polish their majazi khudas` shoes and you decided to guide them on how to do that polis