On Zillae Huma Usman

Re: # 141, Sattar2,

You can say that again, Sattar Saheb! Really, now I have grown more curious. Please read the following very carefully. I am writing this as best as I can.

Suppose a teacher teaches his student many good things and forbids many bad things. Student, who claims to be the teacher`s staunch follower, does the opposite, engage in all the forbidden things and leaves aside good things. Should his claim to be the teacher`s follower be tolerated?

In Pak majority of Sunnis not only consider Ahmadias as Non-Muslims but subject them to persecution and harassment. Even the Sunni dominated Pak constitution has condemned them to be Non-Muslims. They are killed, are not allowed to call themselves Muslims. Are these Sunnis the follower of Islam, i.e. are they Muslims?

Kindly, satisfy my urge to know on the basis of your last post and Quran. I hope you understood my very specific question correctly and enlighten me as pointedly as you can.

Thanks.

Samar

Re: # 143, ZahraJ dear,

Believe me, your emotions have reached me with *real* content. Didn`t you find mine *real*? So sorry to have miss-spelled your name but you can take some clue from Shakespeare? Lastly, but not the least, do you like the replacement?

All the best!

Samar

Zeena (#144),

You are jumping to erroneous conclusions here. I am not asking for you to accept me as a Muslim.

If you escalate the issue by emphasizing the “last prophet” notion, you should back up this notion with some reference. So far you have failed to provide basis of ``last prophet`` notion, while turning it into a devisive issue.

So all we have here is your unsubstantiated opinion. Making a statement, followed by “no ifs or buts; period” … sounds hollow. I am interested in Quran and what the dear Prophet (pbuh) taught us … and not in your hollow opinions.

Re: # 147, Sattar2,

Sattar Saheb,

I am surprised that while you have wasted so much of your precious time on an imbecile you have ignored my very simple and innocent query. If you are not yet off to bed please find time to enlighten me on the question raised by me in #145.

Samar

aisha (#148),

I think I now better understand your inquiry. I was meaning to get to #145, but got tied up a bit. Anyway, here we go …

The student here may be violating teacher’s instructions, which may make him a bad follower. But a bad follower is a follower nevertheless.

Furthermore, this follower may have a radically different interpretation of the teacher’s instructions – and this further complicates the issue. The issue potentially becomes somewhat relative.

Sunni Muslims persecuting Ahmadi-Muslims is indeed low and despicable. I may disagree with oppressors in their interpretation of Islam, but would not go as far as declaring them non-Muslims. I may argue that some of their specific actions are against Islamic teachings, but declaring them altogether non-Muslims would not be appropriate.

In Quran Allah Himself uses the term “Muslim” for believers, without granting anyone any right to declare anyone otherwise. Belief, more than anything, is a matter of heart, and only Allah can judge what is in a person’s heart.

Furthermore, a person may knowingly and willingly violate commandments of Quran … involving patience, piety, humility, drinking, gambling … and more. But this does not make him a non-Muslim either. Human flesh is weak. Human heart is prone to err and to entertain thoughts regarding the forbidden. Our better selves are in constant battles against our egos, our primal instincts, and our inner lusts. Sometimes the better self wins, sometimes it loses. One must try to better himself/herself through prayers, reflection, effort … while seeking help and forgiveness from Allah Almighty. This is a life-long journey … where one attempts to establish a close relationship with his/her Creator and to better him/herself.

Islam offers a path along this journey. Becoming a Muslim is the first step in this journey along this particular path … where one places faith in Allah, Quran, and teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). According to Islam taught to us by the dear Prophet (pbuh), a person becomes Muslim by declaring belief in the kalima.

I recall reading a hadith where a slave-woman was being beaten by her master. I don’t remember the details, but the issue of her being a non-Muslim was somehow raised. The Prophet (pbuh) asked this woman who he (that is, the Prophet, pbuh) was. She replied “You are rasool Allah”. The prophet expressed his view that she indeed is a Muslim.

So this debate about definition of a Muslim is a non-starter in my view. It leads to fruitless discussion, which only enhances rigidity and intolerance. If a person claims to be a Muslim, he/she is a Muslim in my view. The matter rests between this individual and Allah …

Now in some cases a person’s religion may become an issue for others: for example, when dividing up the deceased’s inheritance, etc. In such cases the state/government should deal with the matter in fair, just manner, without indulging in rigid, intolerant definitions.

#147 sattar2 sahib

No, Sir I am not calling you Non Muslim. You yourself calling all Islamic fundamental teachings as ODD. You are confused. Simple. You are proving yourself Non Muslim.

How come you are denying basic foundations of a religion by calling them ODD and then crying out loud that still you should be accepted as Muslim? Again, who is ODD here?

Just think about it.

Re: # 149

Sattar -

Buhat Afsoas Kee Baat Hae :(
You need to attend to a genuine query asap. You should not be taking so much time :D

:)

Why don`t you arrange for a conference call with all the interested parties and address their questions one by one ? You will have a better chance of influencing them ;)

Good luck.

Re: # 146

Point digested :)

Sattar, Zeena, Zahraj, etc.

Why are you indulging in a futile exercise? I will advise you all to read the `Munir Inquiry Report` on the subject. According to this Report the so called Ullema had failed to agree on the very definition of the term `Muslim`. But in spite of that they got the `Constitution of Pakistan` amended to turn it into a `Fatwa` declaring Ahmadies as `Non-Muslims` through an `in-camera` session of the Parliament during early 70`s. Ironically, when the whole constitution remains suspended or even abrogated this fatwa stands intact to create a new variety of muslims in Pakistan, the `Halfi Muslims`. How absurd is all this!

Btw, can any body provide me with the speech of the Head of Ahmadya community delivered in the said in camera session of the National Assembly?

#148 by aishaM on March 23, 2007 11:21am PT
Re: # 147, Sattar2,

[[Sattar Saheb,

I am surprised that while you have wasted so much of your precious time [[[on an imbecile]] you have ignored my very simple and innocent query. If you are not yet off to bed please find time to enlighten me on the question raised by me in #145.

Samar]]

samar1982 aka aishaM sahib/sahiba

Look who`s showing IDIOCY here, obviously you who is unable to comprehend my simple and straightforward posts and calling me imbecile while admitting here on front page that you are carrying TWO CHOWK IDS at the same time. You with your multiple nicks(samar1982 and aishaM) is unable to handle multiple Nicks, so just focus on ONE ID.

Sadly, it is interactors like you who carry multiple IDS @ the same time and chowk staff doesn`t even ban your one ID which is an open violation of chowk interact guidelines.
Please, show us INTELLECTUAL HONESTY AND USE ONLY ONE ID..

Yes, I am imbecile b/c I am intellectually honest and do not use multiple IDs like you.

sattar2
You are confused. You can NOT twist the whole Muslim faith according to your own confused state of mind. BTW, where it is written that Ghulam Ahmed was the last prophet?

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[[[chorri aur seena zorri]]

Re: # 149, sattar saheb : ref: #148,

This post belongs to me. Aisha is my cousin who happened to visit us yesterday evening and used my computer. She wrote many poems in her i-log and was careless enough to let it be inadvertently used by me. When I came back late in the evening, found the window open and out of foolishness, stupidity, ineptitude, rashness, imbecility, etc. etc and idioCY sent the message through her ID.

Aisha, I accept my fault and feel sorry to have used your ID. I request Chowk staff to excuse me.

Samar

#146 ZahraJ dear

Relish the firecrackers, will you? You will never, in your lifetime, get this opportunity of enjoying Holi and Diwali at the same time.

Samar

Chowk Staff

Show us your fairness. samar1982 is also using aishaM id.

regards

Re: # 149, Sattar2

My query was really very simple and straight forward. You have very kindly given an elaborated reply for which I am grateful to you. I got it`s essence and the subtle meaning. Thanks again.

#153, teshah saheb,

I completely agree with your post, sir. And when there is no clear-cut definition everyone should treat others (who wish to call themselves Muslims) Muslims. This is the fairest thing for Pak and Muslim world in general. But look, what the fanatics are bent upon doing. Really frustrating.

Samar