On Zillae Huma Usman

...attempt to discourage women from assuming leadership roles in Pakistan. Apparently, the assassin had issues with bold and confident women...

This statement is factually incorrect. The assassin in his statement said he wouldn`t have killed her if she had been in purdah. It had nothing to do with leadership roles or bold and confident women or any such thing. Were the four rickshaw riding prostitutes he killed earlier (plus two injured) `bold and confident women in leadership roles`?

Typical and shallow over-simplification. Blame it all on moulvis. Much ado about nothing.

When the deranged psychopathic serial-killer who works as a locksmith (and not a moulvi)murdered his earlier victims, I wonder to what reasons he ascribed those at that time. This time the same psychopath murdered a female politician and ascribed it to lack of purdah.

Does anyone find a psychopathic killer`s statement so truthful and credible as not to be looked into and questioned at all? Over and above common sense and/or sound judgement?

Obvioulsy the author is willing to swallow the entire story as told by a psychopath hook line and sinker, extrapolate it over the society at-large, and use it for misandry.

I have serious doubts that this actually is a case of religious extremism. Within two hours of the shooting the media was being fed with the ``statements`` of the ``killer``. For all intent and purpose it was a political assassination of an important political personality. It seems that the powers that be had already prepared the media case even befor the actual murder had happened. In the current domestic situation when government is allegedly fighting an international war on terrorism, poilce cannot issue ``statements` of the accused to the media on its own - and that with in hours of actual crime. Someone from high up was fingering them to do so. Obviously to make a case against the so called ``religious extremists`` so that they can have more excuse to oppress people of Pakistan.

Personally, I think, Huma was assassinated because of something that she must have done using her political posotion to her opponents. Technically, it is as plausible as a religious extremist taking on a harlot or a serial killer taking on a woman. In all honesty all the education that I have received from holywood and local tv about serial killers, he does not fit the profile of a serial killer either.

ZJ:

Its good to see your appealing stance for the aweful incident. The women role in politics of Pakistan have always been defamed by the socio-religious opportunists to shine their Islamic point of mullah views.

I agree fully with you why the murdered was roaming in masses despite having charges of many murderers and that too of women all of them! Who are the elements supporting him.? This needs a thorough unbiased investigation that who signed his bailed out papers guarranteed his freedom to kill. Who issues him license to kill and then publically portray islamic statements to defend such pathetic acts. Which religious organization brain fed his ignorant sinful mind! Which people did get benefit from his attacking on political women...Each face should be unveiled and told to every Pakistani.

And at this time we mustnt also forget that barrier of torch of light of democracy MNA of Peoples Party Ms. Sherry Rehman is still under unconscious after an unknown lady attacked her with a heavy weapon on her neck and back while she was protesting against elections conspiracies on a truck in karachi. The woman who is a true mentor of democractic struggle in its short history and is learned, wise and patriotic is in trauma after a wretched attack.

We need a thorough investigation of all these cowards who are sabotaging peoples political rights through slave murderes and then shout slogans of Islamization.

Most recently sister in law of BB had a narrow escape from a murderous attempt where she literally ran to save life. The patriotic jialas of Pakistan are giving their lives since establishment of Party`s formation and will keep on defending democracy and none speaks of murders of party workers that are on going in Pakistan cities and even an FIR is not registered.

This has to be taught to each of us that murdering models, sex workers and office working women wont uplift egoisim of Islam. Islam is far more difficult to understand by illiterate people.

Regards,

Nadia_Zehra.

It is valid for anyone to protest and express outrage at the assasination of a promising Pakistani woman politician. Irrespectve of what the psycological analysis of the murderer, the murder is what it is: The violent taking of the life of a woman in a leadership position by a man who stated that he acted because he was opposed to her public role. What is the point of speculating that she would not have been murdered had she be in burqa? Does every woman who does not don a burqa deserve being killed? And are Pakistani men so defensive that they can`t hear and support the condemnation of such a horrible act, and instead allege misandry? The murder reflects an extreme and self-destructive aspect of our society. It reflects the terrible times we live in. There are not too many countries in the world where women get murdered for their career choice or their dress code. We live in one. It`s about time that we faced up to that, and stopped napping on a time-bomb, pretending that its a flowerbed.

#4 by mbatlay

Exactly. That`s all there`s to it. I.e a murder. Don`t try to read too much into it.

#2 ... after all denial is not a river in Egypt.

Many were speechless when they heard about this crime.

Law and Order is one of the biggest obstacles to Pakistan`s progress.

She was a very brave woman.

Ras

It is incredible that in this day and age, somebody could be killed for being a woman in public life or for not wearing hizb! My sympathies to her family members and her supporters!

zeemax sahib

I believe this murder has got nothing to do with Islam or Pakistan. The man was serial killer supported by current Govt.

Serial killers can be found in America/Europe or anywhere in this world.

I do not understand why people are jumping back and forth with this nonsense of blaming Islam and Pakistan? for this murder. Why these people are so much immatured?

Serial killer can be from any religion, country,cast and gender. Why people are so ignorant ?

What if samething happens in India? and serial killer is Hindu. Will you blame religion and India for that?

No, absolutely NOT. In America there had been so many serial killers who happened to be Christians, jews and atheists, but I have never ever heard Americans start blaming religion or America for the murders they committed.

So, my pov is very clear............DON`T BLAME RELIGION OR PAKISTAN for the action of A SERIAL KILLER, blame the man and then the current Govt.

Thanks

Projecting the assassination of a single person, as heinous a crime as it is, as a judgment on the state of affairs of an entire country is a bit oversimplification. But then again, we are living in the age of simplicity whereby ``if you are not with us then you must be against us``. The prophet of simplicity, George Bush (pbuh), is an embodiment of this simplicity whereby he limits his conversation to using monosyllables.

Now, of course I condemn the death of this obviously accomplished lady and I am glad to see an article in this regard. However, in that same country thousands of people have been killed in aerial bombardment and other operations by government forces and hundreds more have been kidnapped without any trace in just the last few years. Just 3 months ago, 80 innocent children died in a madrassah when missiles rained down on them in the early hours of a morning. What crime did those kids commit to have suffered that brutal death? Why did that massacre not shake the conscience of our elite as much as the assassination of this one woman has? Were those children not human enough? Are their mothers who are left to mourn for the rest of their lives not women enough? Why is the death of this woman by a crazed person more important than the deaths of hundreds of women in NWFP by ``enlightened moderates``?

When you do not respect the life of ALL humans, you lose the right to your safety as well. When you consider the life of a 2 year old in NWFP expendable in the name of progress, then you open yourself for targeted assassination in Islamabad in the name of a different interpretation of progress. When you are cheerleader for the law of jungle on one people, then you should not complain when your own sense of safety is breached.

It really is a jungle out there. May the deserving people win. Good luck to everyone!

Re: # 10

How dare you ask common-sense questions? shame on you for exposing the hypocrisy of our “liberals”. Do you not know that Yasser latif Sabbundani and the ilk are only ALLOWED to protest the death and abduction of clean shaven people; I protest your objectivity and fairness.

#10
atif jii

Very well said!
I feel proud to have a soul among us with alive conscience. Bravo!

Re: # 1 zeemax {``...Were the ... prostitutes he killed ... `bold and confident women in leadership roles`? ...``}

Yes, you better believe they are ... `bold and confident women`... and they may or may not be in leadership roles, though typically many of them are. No jokes. This is in all seriousness.

Over the past 35 years my views about the working girls of Pakistan have undergone a complete change. Having at length interviewed scores of them I firmly conclude that, exceptions aside, in the main, they are a hard working, devoted, loyal, sensitive and sincere lot who lead lives of great personal sacrifice under often dire circumstances for the sake of loved ones. Mostly they are victims of circumstances and carry a lot of personal grief while leading very high risk lives to support orphaned siblings, incapacitated parents or due to other horrendous pressures. I salute them and hold them in high esteem, generally speaking, as a group. I must also add that this is far more than can be said about many (if not most) begumaat from the upper classes who are, exceptions aside, in the main, lazy, self-indulgent, unimaginative, vindictive and more venemous than black widow spiders.

{``...When the deranged psychopath... murdered ... Typical and shallow over-simplification. Blame it all on moulvis. Much ado about nothing...``}

What the murderer did was surely evil and he may simply have been a nut case, nothing more. That is not the problem. The problem would be (and I honestly do not know if it is or is not a problem), if it were the case that some group of people tacitly approved of the act. That would indeed be bad.

I say this because there is this unfortunate folk legend about another psychopathic murderer who, sadly, is celebrated as a hero of sorts in some quarters. There was even a movie made about him in which he was glorified, or at least his murder was glorified. That psychopathic killer has been erroneously been referred to as, both, a Ghazi as well as a Shaheed... A double accolade which is bestowed on very few. But there are several people who, even today, over sixty years later, believe that he was a hero and his murderous act was not a crime but honorable heroism. I am, of course, referring to Ghazi Illum Din Shaheed, who murdered one of the owners of a publishing house because of mistaken identity. He believed his victim to be the author of a book written by an actually Horrible Hindu. The book contained blasphemy against Jesus and Mohammad.

...SR

Even though it is hard for me to indulge in reasonable dialogue with idiots without `testosterone` as this interactor is often accused of, I would like to ask one question in the interest of `reason`:

Is it reasonable to cry hoarse over the murder by a deranged person of a `bold and confident woman in leadership role` by these aana type pseudos, while at the same time condemning the `bold and confident women in leadership roles` of Jamia Hafsa right now battling the entire establishment while staked out under siege for sake of democracy?

Is it really a protest against persecution of `bold and confident women in leadership roles` or is it really a rant against Islam and trying to defame it using any lies which turn out to be handy?

(anyone who does not know the demands of the Jamia Hafsa women need not bother).

Borrowing this board:

The article ``Pakistan Shining-I: Propaganda or Reality `` has been deleted from FP. Is Chowk under censorship because the CJ issue was being discussed on that board?

Re #14 zeemax
[[Is it really a protest against persecution of `bold and confident women in leadership roles` or is it really a rant against Islam and trying to defame it using any lies which turn out to be handy?]]

Well said!

Yes, these pseudo maniacs have made this particular case against religion b/c it is a fashion now-a-days to blame everything on religion and on Pakistan.

I am very much against Mullahs and that`s the biggest fact, but, at the end to blame religion for everything on this mother earth is obviously very disturbing fact which shows a biased and organized hatred towards a religion and ofcourse a country.

Besides Mullahs are NOT Muslims or even near to Islam, that`s clear for even a two years old kid.

In the era of today`s globalization with exploding diversity, the question to ponder is do we really need to blame everything on religion? or to blame it on our deepest differences?

In this particular case as I already have mentioned in my earlier post#9 we should blame it on the mental condition and serial killer psyche of the killer and ofcourse on the Mushy`s Govt. which clearly is unable to give the equal protection rights to all the Pakistani citizens.

Mushy`s security is @ the heig alert whenever his royal highness`s procession proceeds even for few yards, why they failed to provide the same security for this lady minister?

And on top of everything, why this serial killer with well known police record was set free roaming around skeet shooting(in this case poor women)?

And now all these people as usual blaming everything else on religion and Pakistan.......wawawawa! very valid blame game.

Besides when all of us do not care for other humans lives equally as we care for ourselves, then we as human progeny have no right to ask for our individual saftey while we are jeopardizing the lives of all innocent humans.

As is the case in current Pakistani Govt.

#16 by Zeena

Zeena, imagine the following scenario:

A bunch of t-shirt and jeans clad girl students of Kinnaird College Lahore stage a sit-in in the college gymnasium and refuse to leave over protest of demolition of their swimming pool for road widening. Noone listens to them rather the media starts to call them names so the girls are angry as hell. The Government threatens violence and the girls tell them to take a hike and dig in further. Their boy supporters from St. Anthony`s arrive as well with dandas. After the Govt caves in and agrees to rebuild the pool, the girls are so fed up with being insulted, threatened, and pushed around like common criminals that they now raise their demands and still refuse to leave unless there is a clear apology from the military dictator and democracy restored in the country. Pool or no pool.

Wouldn`t the above girls instantly become national (indeed worldwide) heroines to be hailed and admired as `bold and confident women in leadership roles`?

What is the difference between the above and the girls of Jamia Hafsa?

If you haven`t guessed yet, the only difference is that one set of girls are wearing Burkas while the other set are wearing t-shirt and jeans, while one set goes to a madrassa and the other set goes to Kinnaird College.

Is it that the manner of dress alone can deprive women of being `bold and confident women in leadership roles`? Or is it the kind of schools they go to?

Whatever it is, certainly the mullahs would be doing that because they`re such woman haters. But wait .. I thought Mullahs supported Burkas and madrassas .. so it must be some one else ... but whom? (head scratching).

zahra J -- of course you should ``sick and tired`` of this -- btw as a Pakistani I am sick and tired of the continued incarceration of an overwhelmingly high proportion of African Americans in AMerica`s jails -- hope you will tell your govt to do something about this --

#19 Omar R Quraishi

My dear, you know that is a false analogy unless you were a person of American origin who had become a naturalized Pakistani after moving from US to Pakistan and still retained interest in events ``back home``!

Are you?

Regards.

Zeena, Zeemax and Other Great Islamic souls,

A mullah has Islamic education.

He does not like a woman participating in public life, because of his belief system which happens to be Islamic belief system.

He goes and kills this woman.

The question is did mullah kill her or his Islamic belief system killed her.

Or may be Mullah is hiding behind the easily available facade of Islamic belief system and he has some other motive.

Or may be Mullah is mad but he is intelligent enough take the support of Islamic value system.

I can understand why you guys are getting rest less and agitated because what ever happens people or worse even macaca`s with little or no common sense are going to raise the issue of Islamic belief system.

You guys deserve this Islam.

#18 zeemax
I got your point which surly is very well examplified. All ladies wearing burqa or non burqa have equal rights for their leadership roles in their own sphere.

#21 ramchandar jii

I am not a great Islamic soul, I am just a humble human soul who believes and respects all religions on equal basis, who believes in LIVE AND LET LIVE.

If you read my post#9 , my point of view is as clear as crystal. Anyway, let me put it together again for your great un Islamic soul here.

The man who killed the lady minister was serial killer and serial killers can be from any part of the world irrespective of religion, cast, gender which in this particular case happend to be from Pakistan and from Mullhaism(NOT Muslim), b/c I do not consider Mullahs as Muslims, they are not even near to being Muslims they have their own convoluted set of ideology), even then I will not be running around like a parrot and repeating again and again , oh, b/c of religion this guy killed this lady( religious belief and religion are same).

If, religion has to be blamed for everything that he did then trust me in Pakistan you won`t see majority of women alive. B/c majority of women do not observe burqa or purdha and they roam on streets in jeans and T-shirts with no security guards around. But, they are still alive and living a happy life in Pakistan. I myself go to Pakistan and wear jeans and T-shirts even when I go to the remote areas of Pakistan where Mullahs are in abundance, look I am still alive.

Now, take example of USA, there happen to be numerous serial killers who killed the innocent women same way as this man in question did. There is no Islam there, there is freedom there, then why not even a single American blames that on religion?

Some serial killers happened to be christians, jews, atheists, but, trust me serial killers have their own specific psyche that doesn`t represent any specific religion.

What if samething happens in India? will you blame Hinduism for that? Will you blame India for that?

So, dear brother save yourself a trouble and think before you say something really strong like this......and be fair, come out of this prejudice , open your heart, eyes and mind and then clear your myopic view about Pakistan and any particular religion.

Re: # 22

sister zeena,

..... assalaam o` alikum ........ i am sure you, brother urstruly and al-lah mian will be glad to know that islam is well and alive in pakistan :

LANDI KOTAL (Khyber Agency), March 14: A woman and two men were publicly executed in Bara on Wednesday on charges of adultery, official sources said. The sources said that a local council of elders, including activists of the Lashkar-i-Islam, accused Allah Noor and Shahzada of the Kukikhel tribe of having illicit relations with a divorced woman, Taslima, in Akkakhel area.

Announcements were made on loudspeakers from mosques and the three ‘accused’ were brought to an open place after they had been ‘caught’. A large number of people gathered to witness the execution, said a witness.

The council of elders stoned the three before two masked activists of Lashkar-i-Islam shot them with Kalashnikov rifles. Lashkar-i-Islam Amir Mangal Bagh was reported to have been present during the execution.

#23 by hamidm2

Thank you arjun2 oops hamidm2. Now you`ve shown your true colours and talents in googling.

Please stick to your true colours unwaveringly :)

brother zeemax,

..... it is not `googling` - i don`t have the time for that ..... it is from the front page of today`s dawn .....

....... i am sure you are delighted by this momentous display of islamic justice and regret not being able to participate in person ........but you can clebrate the occassion in the comfort of your own home - here is how you do it:

......gather your clan around you, take off your shoes and clench your right fist ....... now raise your right arm and at the top of your voice shout ``takbeer!`` ......... your clan will respond with a resounding, ``al-lah o` akbar!`

........... now i have to go and puke before i go for lunch .........

hamidm ...

I think zeemax is upset since you didn`t put him in the same category as Urstruly, his deputy (aka allah mian), and sister zeena. He`s feelig a bit negelcted ... and it`s all your fault ...

ZJ,

This one is quite a moving obituary from you. I don`t know much about late Zille Huma but the dastardly act should have been condemned without reservations. But what I see hear is all types of playing around silly arguments.

Though I know it is useless to counter argue, but just to refine my English writing I point out the following :

1. One of them says he/she is against mullahs, as if the murderer is not a mullah. Then he/she goes on further that mullahs are not muslims. Does he/she want us to believe that Arabs are so foolish as to appoint infidels for teaching Quran in Paki madarsas?
2. Everywhere in the world acts of violence are condemned wholeheartedly except in Muslim countries. Today itself Naxalites killed more than fifty policemen in my province and met with denouncements, without ifs and buts, from every quarter including from Marxists themselves. Their ideology is being questioned. Can we say they were not TRUE Naxals and Naxalizm should not be blamed for their acts? Should we say they were psychos?

In fact all these interacters look like psychos themselves, unable to do as simple thing as showing a little sensitivity towards a departed soul and saying a few words of sympathy for her loved ones. And don`t forget, they are intellectuals!

I`m really worried for India because as they say `geography can not be altered`.

Samar

#26,

Now I know he/she is a sister! Thanks.

Samar

SR (#13),

Thanks for putting a human face on those wretched prostitutes. It does not surprise me that a great majority of them are sincere souls, simply trying to make a buck …

Atif (#10),

Age of simplicity dawned much before “either you are with us or against us”. Try tracing it back to killing of blasphemers and apostates … core beliefs of the ummah. For sheer entertainment, add to it stoning adulterers. Bush was probably borrowing from works of Bukhari when he came up with his infamous line.

Loss of an innocent life is lamentable … whether innocent children in madrassah, an adulterer stoned to death, a victim of honor killing, or murder of Huma Usman.

Murder of Huma Usman stands out in a sense though. Being a woman in leadership role, she probably was in a better position than most politicians to address plight of women in Pakistan. Her murder was loss of an innocent life, as well as a setback for what could have been a noble cause.

#25 by hamidm2

You can go to hell for all I care.

- I am all for brave and courageous women. They provide a good example in a society which has very ``few`` good examples of role models. What is the % of educated women in Pakistan working on initiatives dealing with the public? If you start killing them left, right and center (or even make attempts to do that) then you display your true colors. What is the deep rooted insecurity behind those true colors? Influence of patriarchal culture, influence of god forsaken practices of religion that are only interpreted by the scholars of the world (who have nothing better to do but focus on i.n.t.e.r.p.r.e.t.a.t.i.o.n.s and tweak and twist and manipulate the masses). That itself is a huge undertaking! One must salute those men who are into it!

- A young woman, a mother, a wife, and a daughter who had a promising career and life ahead is gone all of a sudden because of someone`s reckless act. If I talk to a few yogi friends who believe in reincarnation, they will give me a different take on life or I should say multiple lives that we end up having. I do not want to undermine the concept, but I do want to focus on what is here right now. It does matter. Just having a congregation to offer a namazae` janaza ain`t enough. That`s what Muslims love to do.

- I was at a dinner party after attending a thought provoking presentation by a female Pakistani American Scholar in NYC a few weeks ago. I was there to support a fellow KCiite. I have not done that in ages and haven`t attended any Pakistani event for quite sometime. I guess it was the right timing, being Women`s History Month. At the dinner, we ended up having a hot discussion on women in different cultures and this sad topic was brought up. The group was very diverse. A young american dude got really upset on hearing about Zillae`s story. His spontaneous reaction was, ``Why are people so intolerant? Why cann`t they just talk to each and resolve their differences or agree to disagree? Why do they have to remove the person from the scene to make their point? What`s the point? Is the point that worth it to kill someone?``

- When I read about the incident something else occured to me. I am sure Maulvi Sarwar is not the only Muslim male with a name Sarwar. Now, all the Sarwars on this planet will be scrutanized and their names will go through all kinds of investigation when they travel. This is where those who are innocent and have nothing to do with this fellow will suffer. These accidents are not to be taken lightly. It`s a very different world today than what it was decades ago. You mistreat one woman and the media brings her at the front page of all major news to show how muslim societies treat human beings under the garb of religious interpretations. And it`s high time the world needs to see their true picture. Musharaf went nuts when women in DC cross-examined him on the stance of women in Pakistan. He received a befitting response from quite a few in the Washington Post. His stance was, not to wash the dirty laundry out in the world. The women activists and attorneys insisted that you need to take care of that dirt inside before it makes its way outside. Apparently, that matter keeps on coming back right in our face. And I do not want to bore the readership with the content since it`s been out there for a while. It`s unfortunate if you have not had the opportunity to read it. Those of us who happen to wine and dine with people from different cultures in the US do feel real embarrassed to even have this pandora`s box touched. It is shameful that the country of your origin is clueless on the treatment of women. Wherever they find bold, confident and well educated women take a stand, they lose their sleep.

(continued)....
(As time permits)

Re: #31

The anguish ``A young american dude`` displayed is noble, however it isn`t any different from the anguish that we should and must have for any serial killings by lunatics. This Molvi Sarwar guy was a psycopath serial killer, he had killed several prostitutes and was arrested and then released at the behest of one of the leaders of the Q league and he ends up killing one of their own. What irks me is that the life of Ms. Zille Huma is some how more precious hence requires this kind of attention, as compared to the lives of those poor prostitutes. what annoys me even more is that insinuation that Molvi Sarwar was the Owner of Islam and hence all his actions therefore must be associated with that religion.

I am not suggestin that we don`t have our share of uneducated chauvanists who oppress women in the name of religion but this particular incident has nothing to do with religion and it has everythin to do with the fact that this guy was a nutt-job. Bring a verse from Quran or an authentic hadith of the prophet (PBUH) if you must blame Islam for something. Prophet (PBUH) said ``Best amongst you are those who are good in manners with their wives`` of all the things he (PBUH) could have picked as being the pre-req for being the best he selected this, how come we never focus on that? Because everyone has their preconcieved notions and everyone has their agendas, mullah`s have theirs and liberals pander to theirs.

Abu Mian,

You cannot put Quran and recorded adadith in the same category. Some recorded ahadith validate killing adulterers, apostates, and blasphemers … although Quran squarely negates such killings. Furthermore, here’s a recorded ahadith that may amuse you …

+++

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (pbuh) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (pbuh) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there.

When the morning came, the Prophet (pbuh) was informed about it. He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (pbuh) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (pbuh) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

+++

Such ahadith are used to support ``Blasphemy Laws`` even as verses of Quran strike out basis of Blasphemy Laws. So the problem lies not with Islam ... but with ullema`s Islam ...

Re: # 33

Sunnan Abu dawood is not revered as ``SAHIH`` (authentic) so there is a possibility of fabrication, i am not saying that there is one in this hadith because i am not knowledble enough in hadith to render a fatwa here but nice try. You however need to proove to us the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani first and foremost before you venture on to the other matters that don`t concern you anyway.

So Abu Dawood is not authentic but Bukhari is? Did an angel come to Bukhari to narrate ahadith, but not to Abu Dawood?

Much of Islam has been disfigured on basis of recorded ahadith. This is why I cited issues of apostasy, blasphemy, and adultery … where recorded ahadith negate Quran. And these ahadith have been declared authentic by your ullema! Go figure.

And you sound like a broken record on Mirza Sahib. As I have suggested, first you should “prove” prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to krishna_abcd, or SR, or hamidm … then we can discuss Mirza Sahib. Can you handle this? Or are you all hot air?

Re: # 35

no the angel only went to Mirza ghulam ahmed qadiyani and told him that he was a loonie toon, he got all hyped up, he told ur dad and the insanity moves along

Re #36:

Most people think the same about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and your own insanity.

Do you see the miror, pin-head?

Re: # 36

abu-sufyan,

...... please stop spewing nonsense against hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed - he is ``most revered human being for us, someone who is more important for us than our mom`s, dad`s, brothers sisters, our own children`` .......... shame on you

- I am very amused to read that there is so much concern on the assassin`s past victims. I have read mixed reviews. Some said that the murdered women were models and others had different views. Pakistani society, despite it`s so called education, is backward to the last core. To them, a model girl can be equivalent to a prostitute. To them, there is no concept of women in leadership. This concept is more of a western concept and semantics than the naive eastern understanding. In that culture, I do not even think they have started grasping the nuances of career women or even professional women. So, I have sympathy with those who are confused here. May God grant them some wisdom. (Amen)

- I also read some referral to begmaat . I do not understand where that is coming from and who the bloody hell are these begmaats. Apparently, the men on Chowk who use such terms loosely should care to explain. It is analogous to someone constantly crying over ``elites this and elites that``. What`s the reference to the context?

Addendum (Post # 31)

- A few years ago around the same time of the year, I was invited to join Mukhtaran Mai for an evening. I have never been to an event like that where the key person has been violated so I was not sure what to expect. It was quite a long drive and I was very half hearted to go to a god forsaken place in Long Island. Not one of my favorite areas. I pushed myself to check it out after work. The ambience was very strange. People were coming and going and consoling her. I was just observing the whole set-up and how the interactions were working. She was covered in a huge chador shawl. Interestingly, quite a few Pakistani journalists were there as well as the media guys. Everyone was dying for a flavor to their story. There were quite a few representatives from the UN who were also there to meet and talk to her. It was more like an open house to come and see Mukhtaran. She was very tired and exhausted with all that attention. One guy who seemed a little reasonable and educated was quite active in preparing for his talk with her. I broke the ice and we shared a few notes.

He: Why don`t you come and join when I interview her?
Me: What are you interviewing her for?
He: I want to get the true story.
Me: I am sorry I am completely removed fom the local Pakistani media and its efforts. What are you referring to?
He: It`s still not proven that she went through what she claimed that she had gone through.
As a media person, I am here to ask her my set of questions. I want to ask her about the whole scene and how she was violated.
Me: Is this even polite to cross examine a woman who has been through a bad experience after a few years and keep on hammering on the bad memories? Why don`t you ask her about the projects she has undertaken and move on?

He (went silent for a few minutes) and left to talk to her.

I guess he spoke to her in Siraiki or whatever language he knew to bond. He ended up making her repeat the whole story and what happened and how it happened and the exact location and situation and everything that she went through. I was observing and I did not want to listen. I was just observing the expressions on both faces. There were quite a few clumsy and weird men also hovering around to hear her talk in Siraiki.

I did not understand their modus operendi, but it was neither polite nor in compliance with basic norms of civility.

He came back to me after his interview with her.

He: I want to carry on our conversation. I know it may not sound nice and polite to ask those questions that I had to, but that`s what a journalist`s job is.
Me: What do you do?
He: I am in media/journalism.
Me: You don`t seem to trust her episode?
He: No, I don`t.
Me: You don`t appreciate her efforts to make a change in the lives of many who would otherwise never accomplish that change.
He: I do. I speak her language and I have also worked in the armed forces in the past. I can tell you that the truth has not been fully uncovered.
Me: You don`t trust her because she is a woman.
He: There are other factors as well. She was under immense emotional pressure and may have forgotten what exactly happened. And may be retaliating to come back at her violators. It is the journalists` job to keep on repeating the questions, let the subject stay fresh in people`s mind and make sure that her story is the same.

I saw something in this exchange that really made me see the dark and ugly thought process. It was time to leave. I decided to say a few words to MM and met her friend who also served as a secretary of all the efforts underway.

Me: I am curious to know if you find all this support morale-boosting and comforting?
The woman translated my question in their local language and the result was, ``Kuch Pataa Toa Naheen Hota.``

I thanked them and wished her all the best in the initiatives. I heard a few stories about Nick Kristoff (the man behind introducing MM to the world). They seemed to like him very much and were indebted to him for his compassion and human concern.


Note - All this boils down to two things:

a. When you don`t let your law and order system be just, then you open yourself to the world for all kinds of speculations, misunderstandings, and action.

b. When you do not grant a woman justice who has been treated unfairly or killed for whatever reasons, then you are supporting those who have mistreated her. I am emphasizing on women because all these episodes revolve around women. As a rule, law should be applicable to all and sundry regardless of their gender.

You do not take care of one issue. And it comes back it you in a very different form jeopardizing the life of another woman. It seems that Pakistani legal system cannot even embrace Islamic law in its true sense. There are pointers in that law that cannot be achieved in today`s day and age. Why convolute the legal system by having so many bloody interpretations that you start jeopardizing the essense of ``justice`` ? If that is the case, then why not revert to the British law and learn something from the American constitution? I guess someone will have to define terms like, justice, fair, equal and rights for the natives to creat real change.

Sorry, I forgot that there has been some commotion in the upper echelons of the legal system and obviously priorities are different.

All of you guys who are twisting this matter for this blame game against Pakistan and religion.

In this case I don`t believe that has got anything to do with mullahism. Mullahs do brainwash Paki public, but, even then 95% of Pakistanis hate Mullahs. Pakistani Mullahs has very very less impact on majority Pakistanis.

If we agree with your point of view to blame Mullahs for the murder of this lady, then why 95% of Pakistani women roam around with NO purdah and even most of them wear western clothings, and they don`t have security guards around them, why mullahs don`t come and shoot them all?

And trust me it is so easy to kill them in Pakistan where law and order is not in a perfect position.

Then why I always roam around in T-shirt and jeans in the remote areas of Pakistan where Mullahs are in abundance and where majority of people are poor and illiterate and can easily be brainwashed? think about it.

Now, lets change the whole scenario, If a priest or Hindu extremist murders so many women, I will never blame Christianity or Hinduism for that. Yes, there have had been hundreds of serial killers in the world which have total screwed up psychology with pathological minds.

Serial killers can be religious extremists, computer geek`s, Pakistanis, Indians, Americans etc etc and black, brown or white.....they can be mullahs,liberals, MDs, engineers, politicians......................

And now let me point out another important aspect of my discussion, I am absolutely NOT defending Islam or Pakistan in this case. I am NOT the word Islam here, I am using the word of RELIGION, what does it mean?

It means that those people who are giving this case the twist of blaming it on Islam or Pakistan are just showing their pure hatred and bigotry for Pakistan and a particular religion and INTENTIONALLY DRIVING THIS WHOLE issue towards the blame game as usual to set their own scores against Pakistan and Islam.

And funny thing is they are too, quick to label me as Muslima, I did not use the word Islam in my previous posts.

Let me share with all of you about a survey that I did @ my job. I told all my colleagues about this particular case in detail and asked them to give me the most sincere feedback, whom to blame?

All of them(100%) People told me, of course it has got nothing to do with any religion, the guy was SERIAL KILLER and he should be dealt with seriously and hanged to death without wasting any more time in these discussions. And trust me all these people were pure AMERICANS.

Let me give you a quiz to solve..............

Can U spot a serial killer? I got 7 out of 10.

---

BY LOOKING AT A PICTURE OF A PERSON, YOU HAVE TO DECIDE IF HE

ISA COMPUTER GEEK OR A SERIAL KILLER. GO WITH YOUR GUT FEELING AND CLICK

ONYOUR CHOICE. THERE ARE 10 PHOTOS.



YOUR SCORE WILL BE GIVEN AT THE END.

http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz

#39 by ZahraJ,

To them, a model girl can be equivalent to a prostitute.

`Model` girls in gujranwala? Plenty of rickshaw riding prostitues alongwith thier pimps, yes, but no model girls. I don`t think there`s much of a fashion modelling industry in Gujranwala.

That doesn`t however detract in any manner from the heinous nature of the crimes.

(P.S. For precise definition of begmaat, you can either refer to `Diary of a Social Butterfly` in the weekly `The Friday times`, or perhaps even the cross-dressing Begum Nawazish Ali)

#39

[- I am very amused to read that there is so much concern on the assassin`s past victims. I have read mixed reviews. Some said that the murdered women were models and others had different views. Pakistani society, despite it`s so called education, is backward to the last core. To them, a model girl can be equivalent to a prostitute. To them, there is no concept of women in leadership. This concept is more of a western concept and semantics than the naive eastern understanding. In that culture, I do not even think they have started grasping the nuances of career women or even professional women. So, I have sympathy with those who are confused here. May God grant them some wisdom. (Amen) ]

When a lot of the above-mentioned elements carry their repugnant thought process and immigrate to other parts of the world, they take and carry that mentality with them. As a result, they superficially try to assimilate in their new environments but keep on nurturing the negative pieces of ``that`` mindset. No doubt, we have been reading about similar episodes that happen in the rural Pakistan migrate with the immigrants to different parts of Europe and continue the series of embarrassment. But in Europe and other countries the perpetrators get the a$$ whipping, they escape from in Pakistan.

Lest I forget, I want to take a step back. I do not want to sound demeaning to the culture completely and what it entails -- there are elements that I love very dearly, e.g. poetry, art, sufism and affiliated aspects. But it`s the thought process that is real dark. There is simply no concept of individuality. I owed this clarification since I used the term ``Pakistani culture`` loosely. I just wanted to be fair.

Re: # 32
abu_safwaan

I may not always agree with you, but I do like your spirit. There is certain exuberance that I read in your posts(whenever I have and whenever they weren`t bombarded with religious quotations). I appreciate your feedback.

Out of curiosity, did I mention anywhere that Islam was to be blamed for Zillae`s assassination? Could it be that you misunderstood my stance?

There is a chain reaction here:

1. The legal system is convoluted on how to deal with the killings/rapes of women.
2. The system emphasizes more on what needs to be done in light of the Islamic Law.
3. The Islamic Law has multiple interpretations and nuances. The worst part is that as a result of the interpretations and nuances, the focus gets distracted.
5.You are no longer worried about providing justice to the victim. You are more concerned about making sure all the itsy bitsy teeny toony stuff of the sharia is taken care of.

What happened to that Islam where Haqooq`ul`Ibad took PRECENDENCE over Haqooq`allah?

We have lost the essence!

Let`s offer a collective Namazae` Janaaza on that too.
Inna` lillahae` wa innaa ilahae` rajae`oon.

Regards.

#43
This is an irrelevant post which has got nothing to do with this topic. It should be deleted.

What is the connotation of immigartion to European countries and to America regarding this particular topic?

Why all this ranting about a particular``mind set``, ``embarrassment`` by Pakistani immigrants?

100% of Pakistani migrate to Europe and America and they are setting up very good examples of morality, hard work with successful careers and of course charismatic personalities to have clear recognition among GORA CULTURE. I feel proud to be Pakistani b/c Pakistanis have proved themselves superior in each and every field.

Majority have good and polished living standards with No drug and crime culture.Their mind sets are refined and educated to defend themselves, their country of origin and their adopted country while giving much to their native and their new countries.

God Bless all Pakistanis abroad and in Pakistan.

ref#38
[ - he is ``most revered human being for us, someone who is more important for us than our mom`s, dad`s, brothers sisters, our own children`` .......... shame on you]

Chacha Jani Hamidm2

Et tu brute.

You too.

You guys are how to describe you people?

Paigambar ki jhaanto ke pisso.

ref#40

Please read pisso as `pissoo`

#45 by Zeena

Is the good madam talking to you or to herself?

Re: # 46
ramchandar baywakoof,

.......... did you notice that i had put those words in quotes ? .... you know what that means ?........... somtimes it is better to keep quite instead of showing your ignorance ........ baywakoof!

Guys

Go and read my ilog.

Dear Zahraj:

I am really amused to see that you have reacted to the valid concerns of interactors here with a very mystified way weakening your own sensitive stance on the series of culprit?s acts. Without even pointing out you mention:

``I am very amused to read that there is so much concern on the assassin`s past victims.``

Even if the past victims were models or sex workers the killing of any human is as shameless and callous as of killing a prominent personality of so called society. I am very much persuaded by the interactor SR?s point of view on ``Begumat`` and prostitutes at the same time which you have dumbfounded taken very negatively. He has been right in saying that these professional women have a legacy of their own to live in the society and norms shouldn?t be only applied to them in the manner of Islam.

Unreceptively you have ignored the political victims of the major party of Pakistan?s workers that are getting assassinated by the government agenda and even any law issue is not raised against them. Recently six PPP workers have been murdered in Attock leaving no signs of mercies for the affected families. In the same hand if any cop is killed anywhere he is given full protocol to his native town and is buried in national flag. Where is our socialist humanity gone when poor workers get targeted in this martial law decorum!

And you are getting lengthily irrelevant, deviating from the topic you chose at hand, you must had done a through homework before posting about a topic of which you seem to have no clue of its reason. However feeling condemnation for a brutal act is not enough to license your patriotisms for a land which you have migrated from. However it bites back when the old nationalism is hurt and it bleeds.

Secondly in your four paragraph article you have felt offensive because Pakistan is becoming an embarrassment for the outside world. That is your major concern then the stale state of Pakistan. The repute of Pakistan when it gets violated by scoundrels is the things that have forced you to write.
If you are so much willing to pay reverence to the deceased Zill-e-Huma then please come Pakistan get to jail and take all the records of the murderer Ghulam Sarwar and trace down all of his flow in out of jails and how he came out of jail when he was under charges of seven murders. Which madrassah schools he attended and who made him bail out to kill. If no strict action is done then after 5/6 years he will again be on roads having a license to kill another woman. Noticeably he is the same man who was once involved in targeting Benazir Bhutto to kill. So connect the dots group the connections and make the world know what the loose ends are in our system that lets culprits like Ghulam Server to roam freely in the society.
Stepping back from your stance will only show your irresponsibility towards the main issue. So be rugged enough to carve out truth very patiently.
And it?s highly intentional that this lady Zeena and the disrespectful Zeemax are busy in saving Mullahs role in this. Even if this act is purely by current government then one may ask from them what?s the rate of particularly Wahabi form of inbred maulvis acting in uniform of Pakistan. More than one third of Pakistani Army is Wahabi that believes in Taliban to the core of their hearts and their heart beat with Osama Bin Laden. If the name Sarwar is now going to be attached with a fundo stigma then every third Pakistani male of age [20-25] is named Osama and you can find a few Saddams in NWFP too. Naming convention has become such a ridiculing effect here that you can?t even stop Pakis from naming their kids Muawiya aur Yazeed. There are many here too which need not to be named but the act the same but that is totally under the interact guidelines of this site which are very stressfully implemented here and our editor never refrains from reminding us that.

If you have opted to be ignorant from the real causes that are affecting Pakistan then one can only praise for your already immigration from the state of no concern. And the matter is only not rural focused. But is majorly related to rural community as 70 percent of Pakistan lives in rural areas and their immigration to industrial areas are mostly fraudulent as they are exposed to the opportunities very suddenly and they take it very cunningly unlike the new generation of them which is more aware to be civil and coherent.

Regards,

Nadia_Zehra.

#31,39,40,43,44 JahraJ,

Though not directly related to the article (obituary), I liked your posts. I didn`t know, poor Mukhtaran Mai is still being harassed by the so called pseudo intellectuals and the media on the pretext of extracting TRUTH so that the IT can be split, re-split, interpreted, re-interpreted and then brought before the altar of justice (?) for settling her dispute with the religo-patriarchal Paki society in the TRUEST spirit of Quran/hadith.

I have been enlightened by few other posts regarding religious scriptures, impressively named moulvis of ancient times as well as of the present. I also came across frantic appeals to treat the killer mullah as a psychopathic serial killer and NOT A MUSLIM. Many saviours of Islam and the Pakistan argued that Islam does not preach violence, hence both Islam and Pakistan are completely safe. Q.E.D.
I am impressed and feel indebted to the writers of these posts. Thanks. Thanks too, on behalf of the bereaved family, for many kind words showered after the TRUTH is finally proved convincingly, comprehensively and for all time to come.

JahraJ, it really appears that you are talking to yourself. I am writing this to undo that prospect.

Samar

PS : Unlike me (#27), I believe you are not writing all this to fine tune your English writing.

JahraJ,

You need some editing of your posts, though. I completely agree with #51 & SR.

Samar

#48 zeemax ji

The honorable lady is self talking irrelevant points to convince others how bad immigrant Pakistanis are...........and the thing that amuses me the most is the respectable lady has herself migrated from Pakistan..........quite amusing.

#51 quoin

Hey Nadia

Yes, I agree with your post and very valid points.

But I do not agree with this which you wrote about me,``[[And it?s highly intentional that this lady Zeena and the disrespectful Zeemax are busy in saving Mullahs role in this]]]

Nadia bibi

If you re read all my posts with honesty and careful insight, you will not have any difficulty in comprehending my simple and clear cut POV.

Again, I am absolutely NOT defending Mullahs, b/c mullahs have got nothing to do with this particular case.

Tell me honestly, how many Pakistani women are being killed on daily basis by Mullahs?
All my family is in Pakistan and they don`t observe purdhas, I don`t observe purdha in Pakistan, then why all this ranting against religion and Pakistan?

And like you said in your valid post why these irrelevant points by the writer of this article?

Well, at the end I am all with the validity and relevancy of the posts.

#53 samar sahib
I am not defending any religion here, I am just pointing out the valid apparent reason for this murder.

And this topic is not about Mukhtaran mai either...so, why this discussion?

I am also amazed by the irrelevant discussions by the writer on her own board.........quite amazed.

Guys and Gals,

Now, I am done with my commentary that was to bring together some floating thoughts to highlight the common points. Please carry on with your perspectives. After all, we all have opinions and perspectives on this issue and many surrounding aspects. I am not interested in taking everyone`s perspective and engage in a back and forth. My apologies. There is no need here. I am not here to change your opinions or change mine based on your perspectives. Sorry I was not and am not obligated to see this issue in a certain way. I am free to take different pieces and bring them together to pinpoint the common elements.

Have a wonderful weekend. It`s supposed to snow on the East Coast. I hope some of you can make a huge snowman of the dead legal system under discussion and punch him hard. Every time, you punch and it falls apart, you make another BIG snowman and punch it again. Keep on doing that till your arms are tired. It`s supposed to be a real good workout for your arms.

Khuda Hafiz.

#55 by ZahraJ

Bye and good riddance.

#55 by ZahraJ

I am free to take different pieces and bring them together to pinpoint the common elements.

You don`t even know what you`re talking about.

I hope some of you can make a huge snowman of the dead legal system under discussion and punch him hard. Every time, you punch and it falls apart, you make another BIG snowman and punch it again.

Sure we`ll do all that. In the meantime you keep on tickling gora balls and leave us to worry about the Mukhtaran Mais.

Get lost.

Zeemax -

I am sorry if you saw yourself in the ugly and dark mindset. Your interacts are way too uncouth and hypocritical for my taste and liking. I am all for different point of views and disagreements, but I won`t encourage a boor to spoil the mood. You did the same thing on another board as well under the garb of your inherent hypocrisy. You, sir, are a hypocrite through and through. There is no need to visit this board again.

Thank you!

Tahmed Sahab,

There are 3 main issues that Sattar and the ilk rave and rant about that I have addressed numerous times on different boards but no matter what the topic at hand is they start playing the victim card and how sunnis stole their candy-bag. I mean the article can be about cricket, aborted fetuses in India or Japan’s economic revival, one way or the other they will start nagging about the persecution of Qadiyanis in Pakistan. Please indulge me as I attempt to address those 3 issues again for the millionth time:

1. Persecution of Qadiyanis because of their faith:

I have said numerous times that citizens of Pakistan should not be persecuted on the basis of their religion, caste, creed, sex, sect or SOCIAL CLASS etc. No one and I mean no one should be persecuted for being qadiyani as long as they follow the law of the land (I will elaborate on that later in the 3rd bullet point). My contention however is that people in Pakistan are not persecuted for being qadiyanis. IF they are persecuted THEN they are persecuted for not being rich or not having a chacha or mama in Pakistan Army. I assure you if you have access to Tariq Aziz who is a well known qadiyani and is the principal sect. of General Pervaiz Musharaf THE GREAT, you can and will get away with murder. You can be the most devout sunni in Pakistan but if you are poor and aren’t related or know the RIGHT people, the oppressors of Pakistan will molest you, persecute you, rape you and your women in front of the whole pind and the administration will sit idly by enjoying it like it’s a movie. Poor women who are being Kari’d thru out sind, or killed in nwfp or raped by ELDERS in Punjab, do you think they are all qadiyanis? Persecution is directly related to the social class.

2. Qadiyani’s insistence that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed qadiyani is the Messanger of Allah swt, henceforth All his descendents are Muslims.


As matter of principle and for the sake of argument I have a major problem with that insistence. It’s like saying I am good looking but I am also hindu. Bhai daykhein aysa nahii hotta. Har mazhab mein daqlayy kii kuch sharayiit kuch huoood-0-quyood hotti hein, Islam is not unique in that perspective. I agree with your notion, what is this fascination with being called Muslims anyway? Agla aapkoo moonh nahii laga raha, dhutkaarr raaha hay, abb bayghyraatoon orr bayhayaoon kii tarahh ghussayy challayy aarahayy hein. If the argument is that Mirza Ghulam ahmed qadiyani was the messenger of Allah then I should be allowed to ask, what was that revelation that he was recieving? What is the proof that he was in fact Prophet? In that regard I have heard nothing but rhetoric so far, “You don’t understand Arabic”, acha bhai mein nahii samajh saka Arabic. Allah swt says in Quran, “We have put a seal on Prophethood”, aapp kehtayy hein naheen wohh baatt nabi-e-kareem kii anguthi (ring) kayy barayy mein hay. Wah sahab wah. I don’t understand Arabic, Ibn-e-hajar asqalani didn’t understand Arabic, imam ibn-e-taymiyah didn’t understand Arabic, abu-bakar (RAW) didn’t understand Arabic, Ali(RAW) didn’t understand Arabic, orr too orr nabi-ekareem himself could understand Arabic, 1400 saal mein koii naa samjh saka Arabic aykk samajh sakayy too Mirza ghulam ahmed qadiyani orr sattar bhaii kayy abboo samjh sakay. Yanii pagal panayy orr baywaqoofii kii bhii koii hadd mutayan karlein huzoor. If you claim that Mirza or you or your Khaloo jaan is a prophet of Allah then you have to arrive with some sort of evidence, this however is purely an educational matter. As a matter of principle and law, no one should be persecuted because he is delusional.

3. Qadiyanis say that they are not happy with the fact that the constitution of Pakistan doesn’t let them call themselves Muslim.


Daykhein hazrat, for all intent and purpose democracy by design is a govt. Where the whims and wishes of the majority are respected and instituted. I said it earlier that as an avid steak lover I find it completely retarded that I can’t enjoy a nice juicy steak in Bombay, but the majority there have decided that beef should not be consumed because majority of them doesn’t appreciate there God being eaten. If I decide to reside in Bombay then i have to follow the law of the land. I can protest and try to change the draconian law thru process that is available under constitution, however if I do decide to break the law then I will be arrested. Now you rave and rant that its inhumane, its unfair its bigotry, for the sake of argument, FINE! What are we going to do about it? Lets try and change the hearts and minds of the people of Pakistan and make them realize with reason and proof that in fact Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani is the Prophet of Allah, if you can’t do that then you have a great opportunity here in west where the REAL Muslims are doing an excellent job of propogating their religion which is resulting in 34,000 americans converting to real Islam every year. Qadiyanis should focus in west and spread the “TRUTH” here where there is no prejudice and the venues are completely open and once they are successful to the extent where the president of USA and the prime minister blair both are qadiyanis then THEY can put pressure on Pakistan to change their laws. Sattar loves to draw a parallel between Muhammad’s (PBUH) persecution and the supposed mirza sahab and his cohorts went thru, qibla, persecution alone is not alone some kind of a magic proof of truth. David Koresh and his disciples were persecuted till they were dead, that doesn’t make him a TRUE Prophet of Allah swt. Pakistan was formed in 1947, qadiyanis were declared non-muslims in 1973. This didn’t happened overnight, there are some realities and some facts in history that we have to study before we can analyze why is that all of a sudden the majority of Pakistan felt that we need to take this drastic measure. My humble submission is that Qadiyanis weren’t playing by the rules, they were propogating qadiyaniyat to the laymen and naïve with the label of Islam and it is state’s responsibility to make sure the eternal well-being of the naïve as well. We can argue about whether eternal well being is related to one being a qadiyani or a muslim but that’s a diff. topic all together.

Zahra, not that you need to hear this, but I can`t help feeling bad for what you`ve had to go through here. I hope (know!) you can look past a few bad apples. Good luck and have a good weekend.

zeemax, shame on you ... you should be forced to offer tahajjud for one week as a punishment ...

Zahra sis, I second #60.

The best role-model for the women of Pakistan to survive and enjoy is perhaps that of Mukhtaran Mai, the so called `Rape Queen`. It is intriguing that even the Mastoies at whose cost she is enjoying this glitter and glory have not even spoken against her in the public.

#59, Abu_safwan, Hinting a parallel between banning beef in India/Bombay and discrimination against Kadianis in Pakistan is ridiculous. By not eating cows you show your solidarity with your fellow countrymen whereas by subjecting your fellow countrymen to all type of harassment, oppression and persecution you alienate them. This is what is going on in Pakistan. Sunnis against Shias ag. Kadianis ag Ahmadia; Wahabi Mullahs ag. women ag. Politicians ag. intellectuals ag. madarsas; ISI ag. media ag. Administration ag. Madarsas etc. etc. And all these people are enemies of poor people and are bent upon breaking up Pakistan.
But I agree with your contention that why these Kadianis are begging for being treated as Muslims.

#59 abu_safwan brother
Very valid points. Bravo!!!

Yes, Mirzaiis are NOT MUslims and thats a fact. I recently have observed here on chowk the extremely abusive attitudes of two well known mirzaaiis called Kulharee and Verizon(Admin bukbuk.com) with multiple nicks who come to chowk just to insult our Prophet(PBUH) and when I tried to stop them politely with valid points, they ganged up against me along with certain other abusive females interactors and some Hindu interactors and call me the vilest gaalis possible and they have made it their routine to come to chowk UP and abuse me more and more and then abuse Prophet(PBUH).

And then when they come to chowk.FP they show their hypocrisy and start playing all Muslims. WoW!!!

They openly state that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is their last Prophet and OUR Prophet(PBUH) was a false prophet and they try every possible derogatory garbage to humiliate Prophet(PBUH)..............

I always supported these Mirzaais for their minority rights in Pakistan, but, after seeing what I saw on chowk I am NOT going to support Mirzaais any more.

To support mirzaais was the biggest mistake of my life.

#58 by ZahraJ ,

Yes, I`m uncouth when I have to be. I won`t deny that because that`s the truth. But I`m not hypocritical. That too is the truth. I`m also intolerant (which you didn`t mention but I`m admitting it nevertheless) when faced with hypocrites of the highest order.

The problem with you is that you are prejudiced, biased, and blind. You only take the line which is fashionable, and reject the rest out of hand when it is not without even exploring it.. You have a closed and diseased mind swathed in rose coloured glasses.

That`s why I don`t like you, and think you`re a creep who is better relegated to the confines of her NGOs.

Regards.

#64 by Zeena

To support mirzaais was the biggest mistake of my life.

Well ... you know better now.

#63 aisham,

Minor, but critical correction: Ahmadis are not asking to be treated as Muslims. Rather, they are only demanding that they have the right to consider themselves Muslims. Note the subtle, critical difference here.

A person may consider another non-Muslim … and that’s his choice. But he cannot justifiably force his interpretation of Islam on another. This issue underscores ummah’s fanaticism.

+++

#64 Zeena,

If that is what an Ahamdi said, he is incorrect. Ahmadi-Muslims consider Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be most exalted prophet of Allah, ever. Furthermore, Mirza Sahib is not necessarily the last prophet of Allah. We believe that Allah will continue to raise prophets to guide people to Islam as they go astray. Divine Law got completed in form of Quran … but door to non-Law bearing prophethood remains open (very similar to prophethood of Jesus, Haroon, etc.).

You are too quick to judge Ahmadi-Muslim community here. Let me turn the tables on you:

If some Muslims support suicide bombings, does that necessarily mean that all Muslim should be persecuted?

According to your standard, non-Muslims have the right to discriminate against Muslims on basis of a few suicide bombers. No? Yes?

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#65 Zeemax,

You were uncouth when you did not have to be. Your posts display a certain pattern of abuse.

A Statement by the Asian Human Rights Commission

PAKISTAN: The government`s policy of appeasing fundamentalists is responsible for the murder of a female minister
The government of Pakistan continues to turn a blind eye to Islamic extremism throughout the country and is compromising the rule of law for religious fanaticism. In doing so, the country has once again witnessed the brutal and senseless death of one of the states political hopefuls. This time, the Minister of Social Welfare was assassinated in the streets for no reason other than being female.

On 20 February 2007, Punjab`s provincial Minister Zille Huma Usman was killed in broad daylight as she was about to address an open session of her `meet-the-people` pre-election campaign at her electoral constituency in Gujranwala. The murderer, a man named Maulvi Sarwar Mughal, is known to have already killed more than half a dozen other women in the past for so-called sins against Islam. After one year, each of his cases were thrown out of court based on a lack of evidence, resulting in him remaining a free man up until his most recent planned execution of the minister. Shamefully, Maulvi had tried to kill female Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto at least two times in the early 1990s. Maulvi Sarwar stressed that he was unable to kill her because she had such tight security.?In his statement to police and media, he went on to say that the minister (Zille Huma) deserved to die because she refused to wear her full veil and had chosen to pursue a career that was outside the home.

In Pakistan, murders against women such as this are happening because military and police promote policy that allows fundamentalist killers to negotiate their freedom. This is the same policy that grants reprieve under Islamic Law. Those who commit such heinous crimes are allowed to pay a determined amount of money to the victim`s families via authoritative negotiation or aggressive threats. Once the family has been bought, the killer walks free and is able to continue carrying out the work that has been quietly sanctioned by the radical clerics and sympathetic government administrators. It is known that Maulvi had not been condemned for targeting working women after he and his patrons began a protest movement against theaters and picture houses, a campaign that was made successful through the support of local government administrators and religious extremists in 2005. It is alleged that he was actively involved and supported by influential community figures in this movement that was set to clean the city of sinful women who decided to work.

The Asian Human Rights Commission accuses the Pakistani government of supporting fundamentalist policies that have resulted in Minister Zille Huma Usman`s death. If the government had acted against this serial killer in the past and condemned his hateful doctrine, Minister Zille Huma Usman may be alive today. Despite the killer`s first two assassination attempts, the police did not arrest him since they did not take the matter seriously enough. The AHRC purports that the government of Pakistan refusal to take death threats against women seriously proves that they are quietly condoning a patriarchal society that is organized under fundamental law. The AHRC is extremely saddened to report that the government`s lack of respect for women has resulted in a drastic increase incases of rape, honor killings, abduction and forced marriage over the past 6 years. From 2000 to 2006, roughly 9379 women were killed throughout Pakistan in different disputes including 117 from rape. There were another 3116 cases of reported rape, 1260 gang rapes, 4572 honor killing, while 1503 women were burned to death.(Please see AHRC Human Rights report 2006). Needless to say, the unreported figure is much higher.

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About AHRC: The Asian Human Rights Commission is a regional non-governmental organisation monitoring and lobbying human rights issues in Asia. The Hong Kong-based group was founded in 1984.

Posted on 2007-02-28

The text below is excerpted from a newsletter posted by Genderwatchers.org.

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A troubling parable of Pakistani society, observers say, rests at the intersection where Usman and her killer collided on the afternoon of Feb. 20 in Gujranwala, a northeastern city of more than 3 million. Usman, the first female politician in her family, was a proud symbol of change. Thanks to national laws which allotted one-third of all local legislative seats for women, some 30,000 women entered local politics after 2001, according to a 2004 World Bank study.Usman herself began working up the ladder four years ago.

``She was very interested in giving charity to the poor. Her belief was that if you want to work, it is no matter if you are a man or a woman,`` her husband, Muhammed Usman Haider, says at the family home in Gujranwala. ``I`m proud to say she`s the most pious woman. She knows more about Islam than anyone.``

Meanwhile, religious leaders universally condemn Mr. Sarwar`s stated motives, and while few clerics would support his extreme actions, the rising violence indicates that there may be segments of society who do. A debate rages over what Islam says about a woman`s right to work and hold office.

``Whoever did this was wrong. She was not un-Islamic. There is nowhere in the Koran that women cannot hold office, as long as they act with modesty,`` says Aqeel Ahmed, who works at a computer shop in Gujranwala. More than religion, what most disturbs observers is that Usman was not Sarwar`s first victim. In 2003, he confessed to police that he had killed at least four women and wounded four others, mostly prostitutes and dancers.

His gruesome acts made national headlines, but when Sarwar appeared in court, he changed his story and the cases fell apart. There were also allegations, according to the local press, that religious leaders paid compensation money to the victims` families, who eventually dropped the cases.

While police deny any wrongdoing or neglect in Sarwar`s previous cases, his frequent run-ins with the law, observers say, expose the institutional discrimination at work within the Pakistani justice system. ``[Women] are not getting real justice. They`re not going through the police and the judiciary ... It will take so much time and insults of that lady,`` says Humaira Hashmi, the regional general manager of the Punjab Rural Support Program in Multan, which addresses issues of women`s rights.

Such lapses are part of the larger fabric of abuse toward women that goes unchecked in Pakistani society, according to observers. An October 2006 United Nations report highlighted that honor killings claimed the lives of 4,000 men and women between 1998 and 2003 in Pakistan.

``Police almost invariably take the man`s side in honor killings or domestic murders, and rarely prosecute the killers,`` said a 1999 Amnesty International report. ``Even when the men are convicted, the judiciary ensures that they usually receive a light sentence, reinforcing the view that men can kill their female relatives with virtual `impunity.` `` (Christian Science Monitor March 6, 2007)

Re: # 68

What about Mukhtaran Mai: Half a dozen Mastoies were sentenced to death for her alleged rape by the suo motu action of the trial court; the rape which is yet to be proved in a court of law. Nevertheless she is enjoying the fruits of her `dishonour` with all the glitter and glamour being showered upon her by all and sundry which is the envy of the women both in the east and the west. Paradoxically, it is the same judicial system which let moulvi Sarwar go off after killing half a dozen women. No wonder the poor Paky women are now trying to follow the role-model of the Mai and shamelessly publicizing their alleged rape in the hope of being honoured and rewarded for it like Mai.

#70 dear interactor,

Kindly go find yourself the nearest lake - no, not for admiring your reflection therein!