Raiwind IX

#83 by tahmed32,

tahmed, do you have a propensity to pick the smelliest of them all? Now you`re smelling this eastmwest character ...

Raiwind IX ? I thought there were XI players in a cricket team ...

eastmwest #77 sorry, i didnt read your earlier reply. normally, i would not discuss issues about islam with indians given that most of the indian posters seem to be here looking for arguments. however, you seem to have a legitimate interest, and so i am appreciate your interest and am pleased to answer.

On apostasy: there is no muslim country i know of except afghanistan (which has its own version of tribal traditions confused with islam), that specifies death (or any other punishment) for ``apostasy``. Even in the exception that proves the rule (afghanistan), the only time they tried to implement it there was an international outcry and the afghan government dropped the matter.

The very concept of ``apostasy`` is rooted not in islamic tradition, but in the christian church of the middle ages (the severity with which this was regarded no doubt being driven not by religion but by money - loss of church members meant loss of revenue to the church). The term ``apostasy`` does not even a corresponding word in urdu or arabic that i am aware of!! Indeed, when the muslims made their initial rapid advance across north africa and into spain and gascogne, they were either neutral and some cases even discouraged conversions into islam because the money incentive worked the other way for them (the jaziya tax from non-muslims made it profitable not to have too many conversions!!)

Some islamist extremists no doubt once in a while will issue calls for death to apostates (including some hot air balloons on chowk), but they have no roots in islamic tradition and certainly not in the Quran which, as i have always pointed out, has been overwritten by the hadees. And despite what you think - the Quran is very strict in telling the self-styled judges on religious issues (those seeking to impose sharia law in pakistan for example) to go to hell (figuratively and literally) since these are matters for God to judge.

Similarly, some islam-haters (including some hot air balloons on chowk), try once in a while to treat the views of the islamists extremists as representing true islam - but that is simply not true if one examines muslim history or tradition as i have tried to summarize above.

Hope this clarifies the confusion surrounding this question.

Re: # 83

Thanks for your reply. I am defnitely a universalist and abhor relgious fanatacism by any group. It is no one`s business what religion a person wants to follow. Besides I have always been a fan of Chisti ``Love towards all, malice towards none`` and his Sufi compatriots. Your reply was informative and I do hope (I don`t read arabic) accurate.

But what about the Blasphemy laws? Perhap that`s what I was referring to. I mean why are people in Pakistan, Iran etc... condemned to death for questioning Mohammed? Not to be a smart alek but who would want their daughter to marry such a man. Marrying Safiyyah after killing her husband and father! I am sure you have heard all the negative comparisons but I mean why not question and debate (that includes Zionism, Hindutva nuttiness etc..)

ps Bahi`as in Saudi are not allowed to worship publicly and only if they prosytelize ie. try to convert Muslims is the death punishment rendered but that goes for any group.

Here is info on Bahi`as in Egypt:Yalla Bye-Bye, Ya Baha`i
Not content to arrest peaceful demonstrators, jail leading opposition figures for years on trumped-up charges, or have plainclothes security officers photographed kicking defenseless civilians in the streets, the Egyptian regime has pulled another doozy: denying the Baha`i religion exists.

We`ve been following the plight of Baha`is in the Middle East for a while now, though primarily in Iran - where 100,000+ Baha`is are not only outlawed but face a range of official persecution (and a covert yet official policy of ethnic cleansing). The problem is that Baha`is follow a prophet who came after Muhammad, thus breaking the glass ceiling that allows for ``tolerated`` dhimmi religious minorities. That sticky fact has created problems for Baha`is across the region. (One random example: Baha`is are not legally recognized in Tunisia.)

While Egypt apparently has only 2,000 Baha`i citizens, they have now become a political hot potato. (Read a quick overview of Baha`is in Egypt over the past 150 years.) A Baha`i couple recently wrote ``Baha`i`` in the ``religion`` section of a government form - and promptly had their IDs confiscated. Egypt does not recognize Baha`is, and so the case has gone to court. Unsurprisingly, the Muslim Brotherhood and other hotheads have weighed in on the infidel-ity of the Baha`i. And now Egypt’s Supreme Administrative Court has ruled against the Baha`i family.

But Kudos to the Egpytian Initiative for Personal Rights - which has boldly defended individual religious freedom despite the odds and helped represent the Baha`is in court. EIPR describes a nasty scene there:

Lawyers and other individuals seated in the courthouse interrupted and heckled defense counsel each time they tried to address the court and yelled insults at them, calling them “infidels” and threatening them with physical violence during the hearing. Unable to impose order in the courtroom, the Court briefly adjourned the hearing before resuming the proceedings in camera. When the hearing was adjourned, courthouse security officers refused to protect lawyers who were surrounded by members of the crowd, verbally threatened, pushed, shoved and not allowed to walk away from the area.

Sounds like the good ol` days in the American South, when African-Americans seeking basic legal rights not only lost rigged court cases but had to face a hostile mob. Today, in 2006, the treatment of Baha`i in Egypt - and in states across the Middle East - is a litmus test of civil rights repression. Hopefully the court ruling can be reversed and a glimmer of light can at last shine on one of the region`s proud indigenous religions.

UPDATE: Here is a moving appeal by the Baha`i community:

- We cannot move securely in Egypt, our dear nation.
- We cannot document our marital contracts.
- We cannot obtain birth certificates for our children. Obtaining death certificates has also become a problem.
- We cannot get passports.
- We cannot deal with banks.
- We cannot deal with traffic departments.
- We cannot put our children in schools and universities.
- Our sons cannot clear their position with regards to military conscription
- We cannot get medical care in hospitals.
- Our widows cannot get pensions.
- We cannot buy, sell or even own …

We the Bahais are committed to the law regardless of the fact that administrative authorities reject us and force us to deny our creed.``
May 19, 2006 in Civil Rights Abuses: Religious Freedom | Permalink | Comments (4) | TrackBack (0)

May 03, 2006
Catholic Pastor Expelled from Saudi Arabia
This story is from a few weeks ago, but worth noting nonetheless.

A Catholic Indian priest was yesterday forced to leave Saudi Arabia. He was discovered by the religious police as he organized a prayer meeting in the lead-up to Easter. Arrested on 5 April, he remained in police custody for four days and on Saturday 8th April he left for India. The practice of any religion other than Islam is forbidden in Saudi Arabia. Meetings held privately in people’s homes, among friends, are also banned.

The priest, Fr George Joshua, belongs to the Malankara rite of Kerala (India). His visit to Catholic Indians in the Saudi Kingdom was planned with his bishop’s permission.

On 5 April, Fr George had just celebrated mass in a private house when seven religious policemen (muttawa) broke into the house together with two ordinary policemen. The police arrested the priest and another person...

AsiaNews sources said there were around 400,000 Indian Catholics in Saudi Arabia who were denied pastoral care. Catholic foreigners in the country number at least one million: none of them can participate in mass while they are in Saudi Arabia. Catechism for their children – nearly 100,000 – is banned.

Over one million Catholics in Saudi Arabia, but none are allowed to practice their religion, ostensibly even in private. Unbelievable that the world basically accepts this, in the year 2006.

#79 by eastmwest
Back to cricket.
Inzi is now lost. His LUMS show gave ample indicators that he considers himself the sole manager of cricket at international level. He went to the extent of saying that Woolmer only does the coaching that he tells him to do and words like, `mein ne us ko bahir kar diya, us ko ander kar diya` As regards your comment, well the tip of the iceberg is like the iceberg.

When I comment on cricket, or any event for that matter, I do so after verification. Inzi is now lost and a victim of his own foolhardiness. So now there is discord in the team. I reproduce below the following:
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Karachi, March 16: Internal bickerings and disagreement on several issues in the Pakistan team management have demotivated players taking part in the World Cup, according to sources in their camp.

They said that already there have been a couple of incidents which highlight there is friction in the squad and captain Inzamam-ul-Haq was not handling things well.
``There is no doubt about the ability of this team to go all the way in the World Cup. The talent, experience and skills are there. What is lacking is motivation and a collective agreement on the strategy to be adopted for each match,`` one of the well-informed sources informed from Kingston, Jamaica.

``As far as coach Bob Woolmer is concerned, he is more interested in his columns and diaries for a website and improving his public relations in the cricket fraternity. He apparently has lost communcation channels with the captain and many of the players and is just counting his day before his contract expires in June,`` one source said.

He said that since the Pakistan Cricket Board had not bothered to get Woolmer`s contract vetted when it was prepared in 2004, it had a number of clauses in it which allowed the former England player to not only write in the media but also take up other assignments.

``His influence is now negligent and the truth is that Inzamam does not bother to listen to either manager Talat Ali or media manager Pervez Mir and does what he likes,`` the source said.

The source also disclosed that in a recent incident, Inzamam had behaved harshly with Mir and refused to attend a press conference when he went to fetch him.

``Mir went and complained to the manager and he simply said welcome to the club. Mir than went to Board Chairman Nasim Ashraf and demanded action be taken against Inzamam for refusing to attend the conference and was told it would be better if he took either Woolmer or vice captain Younis Khan instead to the conference,`` the source revealed.

In another incident which reflects there is a collective agreement on all matters missing in the team, many of the players felt that fast bowler Mohammad Sami should play instead of the out of form Rana Naved but after a decision on this at the team meeting, Inzamam decided to stick with Naved on the morning of the match.

The team sources said there was also no unison on what to do after winning the toss with one group insisting on batting first and the other one backing Inzamam and Woolmer`s viewpoint to field first on the relaid pitch.

The source also disclosed that after the defeat to West Indies in the World Cup opener, Inzamam had tried to give a dressing down to the players in an emergency team meeting in the dressing room but it ended up with an hot exchange of words with his deputy Younis Khan.

``Inzamam castigated Imran Nazir for playing a loose shot and getting out recklessly despite being told by the coach not to repeat the same shot. At this time, Younis said he had said that it would be better to select Yasir Hameed instead of Nazir,`` the source said.

``Inzamam rebutted him and reminded him that he (Younis) had also played a bad shot and brought pressure on the other batsmen. Younis reacted to this and said than Inzamam should instead bat at number three and he would go lower down the order,`` the source said.

These sort of happenings in the Pakistan team are not new and have happened in the past. ``Infact, one of the biggest enemies of the Pakistan cricket team has been their ability to shoot themselves in the feet despite the emotional attachment the people of Pakistan have with cricket and the effect it has on the nation`s mood and psyche``, the source added.
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Cheerios.

The reason I am emphatic about this is that I am not suprised at all by the course taken by the Pakistani cricket team. Natural extension when you look at the laws of the land. In Saudi Arabia the punishement for being a Bahia is death penalty.

Re: # 79

I already knew that Saudi Arabia has some of the most hypocritical and barbaric laws in the world, but I did not know that they kill Bihais just because they are Bihais. Can you please give a reference? Thanks.

ijazgul: you my friend, are a gentleman. i still remember the wonderful manner in which you responded to last years earthquake by organizing your own relief truck to go to the affected areas.

f chowk was a moderated board, you would have only intelligent, self-respecting individuals posting on chowk. However, chowk has proved incapable and/or unwilling to implement its interact guidelines. As a result it has stagnated, and instead of attracting large numbers of people of your caliber while getting rid of those who see it as a safe and secure forum to insult others, chowk serves to attract a handful of individuals ranging from true ladies and gentlemen to individuals who can only be described as lab specimen and/or clinically insane.

cheers. :-)

Re: # 76

I think I posited a legitimate reply to your assertion that everyone, regardless of their religion is considered equal as per Quran. So my Persian friend is wrong? I am curious to hear your reply.

If Islam so egalitarian and tolerant as you seem to suggest, why is it the only religion that specifies death for apostasy. Most schools of Islamic thought support this. Please spare me the bit about no compulsion in reilgion. That was the tagline when it was a weak. I really want to understand why so many Muslim countries specify death for apostasy.

Re: # 77

eastmwest:

Why are you so upset. You say that you are a liberal and yet you stereotype Muslims. Look at chowk. Lets take some of the sensible Muslims here: Hamid, tahmed and masadi. Heck they disagree on everything. If schools of Islamic thought prescribe something what can most Muslims do. These schools won`t even let a guy like masadi near them. As far as zeemax and urstruly are concerned they may only accept their donations and nothing else. I do not want to go into it again but even Mr. Bin Laden is opposed to most of these schools (I am not saying that BL does not support death for apostasy .... I do not know).

So please do calm down. And also do not force poor old tahmed to repeat his thoughts again and again. If you are interested in his individualistic Islam just check his earlier posts.

I wish you well ... and welcome to chowk.

Re: # 78

The reason I am so irate has partly stems from my frustration with people who want tolerance but often unwittingly are themselves agents of intolerance. In the 1980`s there was a large migration of Bahia`s, members of probably one of the most enlightened progressive religions in the world. Do you know who the mullahs executed with fury? Well the first female surgeon of Iran for example. This was way before 9/11, Irag (complete miscarriage of justice) and Muslims feeling scorned for their faith. In Egypt everyone has to carry an identity card and they can choose only one of three faiths: Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Please give me one example of Muslim outrage and subsequent collective action to demonstrate and protect minority rights. I have countless examples of the reverse.

Lastly: Why are Muslim countries the ONLY ones in the world who think it is totally normal to kill someone because they want to leave Islam? I am really skeptical that the majority of Muslims have a problem with this which really creeps out the rest of the world.

Eik aurat, hazar khasam.
Same individual with many IDs. So if one gets banned, he still keeps appearing.

Re: # 73

Well I have never been active on this site before. It might comes as a suprise but most of my views are shared by a large constituency of progressive mined people from ALL walks oflife and varying faiths and ethnicities. NOT confined to Indians or Hindus. I guess this is particularily hard to digest. That is why I choose to participate.

#68 by tahmed32
So the lesson learnt is to never comment on an issue without having deliberated. It suits the multinickers but not you.

Though there is a passing reference to a particular word in #8, there has been a spate of blasphemous remarks on Hinuism and Islam including the pasting of a cartoon. As a Pakistani well aware of the perils of Pakistan Penal Code Section 295C, I find it strange that shady Characters like Abu_Safwaan can ingnite such hatred and then tolerate it.

Is sab kuch se to mujey bhi sharam atti hai.

Cheerios

Re: # 71

Q: What`s a multinicker?

A boo boo Safainwala,

That`s wrong to sidetrack the issue here. Pl stick to the point(s) raised by Nadeem.