Raiwind IX

Re: # 42

You don`t seem to understand. The indepth report attempted to compare groups by matching families by socioeconomic factors and the educational background of parents and even then Indians did much better than other groups. In fact Indian Muslims ranked higher than Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. It is a topic of curiosity among Britishers themselves as I was asked by a visiting professor at MIT why this was the case. What I am trying to communicate is that the daughter of a Gujerati tailor who is Hindu will do much better academically than a daughter of a tailor who is Paksitani/ Bangladeshi. I will find try to find the report (it is online) and post it. The most underperforming group is actually Pakistani boys. This is not somehting I find amusing or am gloating about. It is distressing. Similar trends are occuring in Canada. Also when you consider there is something like 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world it has not gone unnoticed that in the most intellectually rigorous fields they are sorely underrepresented. Take cryptography for instance I have a cousin doing his Phd at a top institiute. Who dominates the field? Jews, Chinese, Indians and Europeans (far fewer Americans). You can look up top research labs across the world and the same holds true.

A renowned Swedish scientist remarked privately that the two groups you will rarley come across doing cutting edge research are Arabs and Blacks. Much to do has been made about the Golden Age of Islam but if you scratch beneath the surface you will realize the the Arabs for the large part incubated knowledge from Persians, Indians etc... and transmitted it to Europe. In fact the original translator give generous due to original sources. The latest UN report about the Arab world is a damning one, its the only place where literacy is decreasing! There is not culture of reading and intellectual inquisitiveness. I am talking about countries that have billions of dollars of oil wealth. But the question is why have they failed to produce students that are vied for across the world? I mean the head of Oxford Chris Patten is traveling to India to entice students to study at Oxford and he publicly stated he has to in order to compete with like of Harvard, Stanford etc...Can you honestly imagine him or anyone doing the same for Muslim students? It amuses me to no end the wholesale derision some Pakistanis have for Indic culture while having reverence for Arabic culture. Funny no one else in the world shares that tendency. That includes btw Chinese and Japanese.

Guys

Go and read my ilog.

Re: # 66

Interesting...I am familiar with most of it. The stories of the prophet cannodling with the young Coptic slavegirl much to the annoyance of his wives is no news to me. Neither is the promise of young boys in heaven or Arab imperialism masked as a faith.

Hey Abu here is a link on the long history of pederasty in the Islamic world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_lands

Your holy prophet himself warned about the temptions of beardless youth. Part and parcel of the sexual hypocrisy that Islam perpetuates. The criticism of western licentiousness is a joke...Muslims societies have long been considered a gay man`s heaven. A lot of the Orientalists were drawn to Arabia for this very reason. Kind of explains how a group of men can sustain themselves in remote hidden caves. I mean are they actually celibate?

Last question Abu, so please remind us who have your ancestors been riding? Or should I ask who is riding you :)?

ijaz_gul: I came into this discussion a bit late, and had not read abu_safwan`s post #8. So, please dont assume that I have read every post on this board - hell, i havent even read the article yet, and I just jumped in when I saw one of hamidm`s entertaining posts.

I have read #8 now that you mention it, and I see that you are referring to a_s reference to christians as ``bhangis``. I am not obliged to make my views known on every single thing any poster writes, because please understand that would then require me to spend 100 hours each day on chowk.

Nevertheless, not that I owe you any comments on anything anyone else wrote, I can say that I have in the past seen such language used for christians and have in fact spoken out against it. Specifically, I have on such occassions noted that all individuals, regardless of religion, are equal per the Quran (and indeed a truly ``educated`` person does not need the Quran to understand this simple proposition). The fact that many Pakistanis persist in looking down upon sweepers and servants and so forth, and for using the term for sweepers (``bhangis``) to ridicule christians simply reflects shortcomings in their own character.

You also refer to me as a self-style moderator and thus swing the other way from accussing me of not making comments on what someone wrote. I do of coure comment on posts written by others - but that is no more than what everyone else and does not make me a ``self-styled moderator``. For inappropriate language (which you also refer to), please be more specific my cutting and pasting what you found objectionable.

A boo boo Safainwala,

That`s wrong to sidetrack the issue here. Pl stick to the point(s) raised by Nadeem.

Re: # 68

All people regardless of religion are equal as per Quran? That`s news to me! You mean agnostics, atheists, Taoists, Buddhists etc...? So according to the Quran if my Persian friend converts to Christianity after marrying a Chinese Christian she is not supposed to be stoned to death? According to her that is the prescribed punishment and its exactly what the highest moral authority would decide in Iran let alone other Muslim nations. Egregious crimes, mob rule, fanaticism, intolerance, racism, elitism exist everywhere. I think Islamic nations are unique in having their highest moral authority sanction the death sentence for apostasy. Oh and the equality bit...please you have got to be kidding. Go to the Gulf states and look at their labor laws.

#68 by tahmed32
So the lesson learnt is to never comment on an issue without having deliberated. It suits the multinickers but not you.

Though there is a passing reference to a particular word in #8, there has been a spate of blasphemous remarks on Hinuism and Islam including the pasting of a cartoon. As a Pakistani well aware of the perils of Pakistan Penal Code Section 295C, I find it strange that shady Characters like Abu_Safwaan can ingnite such hatred and then tolerate it.

Is sab kuch se to mujey bhi sharam atti hai.

Cheerios

Re: # 71

Q: What`s a multinicker?

Eik aurat, hazar khasam.
Same individual with many IDs. So if one gets banned, he still keeps appearing.

Re: # 55

FYI: Abu Safwaan is also the name of one of Lawrence of Arabia`s lovers. Is that why you choose you moniker? I knew you had a thing for blondes :D. Sorry Beckham is married and straight.

Re: # 73

Well I have never been active on this site before. It might comes as a suprise but most of my views are shared by a large constituency of progressive mined people from ALL walks oflife and varying faiths and ethnicities. NOT confined to Indians or Hindus. I guess this is particularily hard to digest. That is why I choose to participate.

ijazgul: you my friend, are a gentleman. i still remember the wonderful manner in which you responded to last years earthquake by organizing your own relief truck to go to the affected areas.

f chowk was a moderated board, you would have only intelligent, self-respecting individuals posting on chowk. However, chowk has proved incapable and/or unwilling to implement its interact guidelines. As a result it has stagnated, and instead of attracting large numbers of people of your caliber while getting rid of those who see it as a safe and secure forum to insult others, chowk serves to attract a handful of individuals ranging from true ladies and gentlemen to individuals who can only be described as lab specimen and/or clinically insane.

cheers. :-)

Re: # 76

I think I posited a legitimate reply to your assertion that everyone, regardless of their religion is considered equal as per Quran. So my Persian friend is wrong? I am curious to hear your reply.

If Islam so egalitarian and tolerant as you seem to suggest, why is it the only religion that specifies death for apostasy. Most schools of Islamic thought support this. Please spare me the bit about no compulsion in reilgion. That was the tagline when it was a weak. I really want to understand why so many Muslim countries specify death for apostasy.

Re: # 77

eastmwest:

Why are you so upset. You say that you are a liberal and yet you stereotype Muslims. Look at chowk. Lets take some of the sensible Muslims here: Hamid, tahmed and masadi. Heck they disagree on everything. If schools of Islamic thought prescribe something what can most Muslims do. These schools won`t even let a guy like masadi near them. As far as zeemax and urstruly are concerned they may only accept their donations and nothing else. I do not want to go into it again but even Mr. Bin Laden is opposed to most of these schools (I am not saying that BL does not support death for apostasy .... I do not know).

So please do calm down. And also do not force poor old tahmed to repeat his thoughts again and again. If you are interested in his individualistic Islam just check his earlier posts.

I wish you well ... and welcome to chowk.

The reason I am emphatic about this is that I am not suprised at all by the course taken by the Pakistani cricket team. Natural extension when you look at the laws of the land. In Saudi Arabia the punishement for being a Bahia is death penalty.

Re: # 78

The reason I am so irate has partly stems from my frustration with people who want tolerance but often unwittingly are themselves agents of intolerance. In the 1980`s there was a large migration of Bahia`s, members of probably one of the most enlightened progressive religions in the world. Do you know who the mullahs executed with fury? Well the first female surgeon of Iran for example. This was way before 9/11, Irag (complete miscarriage of justice) and Muslims feeling scorned for their faith. In Egypt everyone has to carry an identity card and they can choose only one of three faiths: Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Please give me one example of Muslim outrage and subsequent collective action to demonstrate and protect minority rights. I have countless examples of the reverse.

Lastly: Why are Muslim countries the ONLY ones in the world who think it is totally normal to kill someone because they want to leave Islam? I am really skeptical that the majority of Muslims have a problem with this which really creeps out the rest of the world.