Raiwind IX

very right,
Every year raiwind recruit many `muslims` all over the word, most of them get connected in the `circle` and very few could escape leaving the question marks.
Its really sad that even famous people who have so many advisers get trapped and dont learn from many available examples.

I fully agree with the article for the reason that this born again attitude has nurtured nepotism. This contrition came to fore immediately after the Justice Qayyum Report on match fixing in which Inzi, Saeed, Saqlain and Mushtaq were all involved.

There were also references to Yousaf who was let off the hook for being poor and ambassador of the minorities. A relentless blitz had been launched to convert him on the team`s journey to Morocco where he finally lost his cool and disobeyed Waqar. The chairman PCB then had to confront these blokes on their practice of match fixing and pressurising Yousaf to convert, two simaltaneous but diabolically opposed facts.

Saeed Anwar`s brother appears a pointsman in this change, often seen in the dressing rooms and PCB Academies.

I know I may draw flak from S...s and Z.....but these are facts.

Cheerios

Rana Naveed grows a beard and is brought into the team despite a pathetic show. Shabbir grows a beard and is taken to South Africa despite being unfit. Danish Kaneria is controversially kept out of the test team in South Africa despite a great show.

Is this Islam? Does Islam teach us to be unfair to others and not judge people on merit but their religious beliefs?

Great insight and a nice read but a tad depressing. Maybe Inzi needs to retire and spend his retired life dedicated to tableegh. This might bring some sanity into the working of the Pakistani cricket team. The Pakistani public needs a team that does not let them down and which does not lose miserably without any fight. Whether these cricketers pray five times a day or stick to the tenets of Islam is not the concern of this cricket mad public and is best left as a matter between these individuals and God.

More depressing is the fact that this influence will be very hard now to get ridd of. In order to do that, after world cup, Inzi should be forcibly retired, and people like Saeed Anwar, Mushi, and Inzi should be told not to visit the Pakistani team. Also, every other player should be told in no uncertain terms that any kind of pressure by them on any other player will not be tolerated. it has been unfortunate that people have been getting away with anything in the name of religion in Pakistan. This kind of attitude will never be tolerated in any other country including India but it goes on in pakistan. I guess PCB is scared of the religious factor but they should finally put their foot down and tell these idiots (inzi included) to get away from the Pakistani Cricket camp. Sports and religion should be far apart. People should be allowed to pray (or not pray) because it is between them and God. Inzi is nothing but a moron to think otherwise. These tablighi jamaat walas haveto be stopped specially in Cricket, otherwise the game will be destroyed to no end as we have witnessed in thee past 1-3 years since Inzi took over. people might disagree and say that they have been winnin gbut when you look closer you will know that Pakistan has not done well outside against countries where pitches are different.

I`ve read some pretty bad articles on Chowk but this one takes the mick. For God`s sake is your hatred of Islam so much that you are denying the Pakistani cricketers the choice to follow their religion how they see fit? I`m not the world`s biggest fan of TJ but if that`s what they want so be it. Frankly their personal lives should have nothing to do with it.

After Miandad, or possibly even including him, Inzi is easily our greatest batsman. His performances on the pitch and his stats speak for themselves. Would Mr. Paracha be moaning if they all became secularists or atheists and joined the Agnostics Association?

For God`s sake they are paid to play cricket and they do that. Saeed Anwar was the best opener of the 90s and one of the greatest ODI players ever--so what if he grew a beard?

There is no evidence to back any of the allegations you`ve made except hearsay and gossip. Do you really think Yusuf Youhanna would make such a life-changing situation as converting to another faith out of fear of losing his place?!

I don`t care what the cricketers do in their private lives or how they dress or look as long as they perform. When Mr. Woolmer has no problems with it why do you? Or are you embarassed that your team in represented by guys who mention Allah in interviews?

As for Shoaib, perhaps if he didn`t take drugs-- as well as not breaking down every other game--he`d still be in the team.

Re: # 4

Hasanmahmood,

Islam (any religion, basically) has been an incredibly convenient fig-leaf for many
dysfunctions. Anyone in the PCB with any amount of testicular fortitude should
read the riot-act to Inzi, distribute shaving kits to the willing players and restore sanity
in the team.

Perhaps the Indian team should start praying too - 6 doing Hindu rituals, 1 with a
Granth Sahib, and 4 Namaazis. Slow over-rate will take on a new meaning.

Naqshbandi #5,

Nobody has a problem with Inzi praying 15 times a day. The problem rises with his coercive habits (and there is enough circumstantial evidence for that). It would be
equally bad if he had asked team members to denounce their religion. Why is that so
difficult to appreciate ? Inzi is a true modern-day great, battingwise. However, he
doesn`t come across as a smart leader in any way, sense or form.

By the way, would you be okay with Kaneria trying to convert team members to
Hinduism, or an erstwhile Youhana proselytizing ? Or for that matter, a Michael
Vaughn treating Mahmood and Panesar as step-members of the team ?

Ganja smokin 1- Islami Cricket 0

Nuff said

The analysis that Pakistan won the world-cup in 1992 because they were all bunch of atheists back then and the reason they have lost it since is because they have found Islam, sounds about right. I think england’s dismal performance can be traced back to their affinity to tableeghi jamaat as well, wait isn’t mushtaq ahmed still playin county? Ahaaa..now it all make sense. Good job Mr. Paratha you nailed it on the head. You are also dead on about inzi slipping drugs in shobi’s paratha, I think inzi also cuts open his thighs and messes with his pathas and his groins. its all a big conspiracy against shoaib because he missed a namaz. My only question is that you should be working for NASA, why are you wasting your obviously superior intellect on chowk. What a waste!

Ijaz_Gully,

So you agree with Paracha ehh? What a surprise, a bitter hateful bhangi from Pakistan who is still pissed of at yousuf for converting some how aggress with the stupid notion that Islam is the reason for the downfall of Pakistan cricket? (is it really a downfall, I thought we were number 3 in the world)

Plats,

Say what? Kaneria tryin to convert to Hinduism? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…u r joking aren’t u? Have you ever seen a sane human being converting to Hinduism?

Re: # 8

Abu-safwaan,

1) If I was as intellectually sound as you are, I would congratulate you first on borrowing a
third-rate Arab moniker and your attempt at racial kinship. But I shall desist, because it
would be considered bad taste.

2) Now, parsing101 - please take another look at Ijaz-Gul`s post and explain to us
dimwitted souls where the performance of the cricket team has been linked to Islam.

3) Try and comprehend that the article is about freedom of religious choice and practice.
Even if Pakistan had Federer-like performances, this behaviour wouldn`t be justified.

4) I have not seen any sane human being suspend his/her disbelief and buy into any
mythology (Hinduism/Islam/Christianity/....), but let`s leave that out this.

What I find amazing is that why are people so amazed about such stuff? If the whole country is going to dogs, shouldn’t the sports have their fair share. No? We have a nation of the thugs, by the thugs, for the thugs. When we have Dakoos running the country, should we worry about the beards of the cricketers? It is like Jews at the concentration camps worrying about the price of skiing gear.

Anyway, it is a nice distraction from the usual crap. If Basant can’t be had, cricket can go to hell.

Re: # 8

Well actually converts to Hinduism, and Buddhism tend to come from more educated, intelligent backgrounds. Muslims converts either happen in jail or end up in jail. At least in the West.

I think the fact that your fellow believers are required to kill you if you ever leave Islam has to do with who stays. Guess its what makes Islam so ``special``. But since it is a divine injunction we shouldn`t question it. An arab once remarked that the beauty of Islam is that you don`t have to think, every aspect of life is instructed. I guess you follow this to a tee.

I think NFP has lost it. I knew that being a critic makes you a cynic but now he has started ranting against the easy targets.

I mean if you want to rant against something, why not do it against former chief justice. How could he ban Basant? Why didnot he find anything wrong in the second Hasba bill except for minor events.

How about that we want to establish the writ of government in baluchistan and waziristan but we cowed down to AK-47 weilding burqa clad girls in the heart of Pakistan i.e. Islamabad. Get a Life MAN

NFP! I think there is much more to the world than the cricket team. They are going down and might take religion with them too. What about hockey? Nobody is holding them back. Rather they wear the unislamic shorts. Why aren`t they performing well.

More than hamstrings and prayers, shoaib has to control his doping and drinking. Chill out man.

Re: # 11

Yes Yes ..in order to accept monkeys, elphants and cow dung as GOD, you must have an IQ of 200, after all this is twilight zone.

happy days

.......... if, inspite of all this facial hair and communal banging of heads on the ground five times a day, the pakistani team looses, does it mean that islam is not a true religion and al-lah is a lesser god compared to hanuman, jesus and haile selassie ?

...... maybe that is the silver lining in this dark cloud - the team gets its sajda raised butt whopped and the pakis loose faith in al-lah mian, convert to rastafarianism and start smoking ganja to get to heaven .......... happy days are coming !

Re: # 14

Are your daughters still enjoying ``Ice Cream`` with random boys in the car or have they moved on to BIGGER and better things?

Sufyan I know where you come from and knew that you would. Ironically you chose a multi nick whose dynasty ruined the Islamic concept of a State. No womder you use words that u do.

Re: # 13

What an insighful summary of the Vedas, Upanishads and Gita. But hey you are no Shopenhauer (Do you even know who he is?). Are your parents cousins? That would explain a lot. I mean the British health minister had to ask the Paksitani community to stop marrying their own relative as the have the highest incidence of recessive genetic diseases. Also it would be part of why in the recent education report while Indian rank far higher than white Pakistani/Bangladeshis rank near the bottom. This even holds true after controlling for socioeconomic status and parental education. Similar patterns exist in Canada and the States.

Re: # 16

Oh so we are saddened now by the failure of Islam`s rise? How very noble of you. As jack says ``Go sell crazy somehwre else``. For the millionth time there is a difference between Safwaan and Suffyan, i know it comes as a surprise but instead of making conversation around my Handle, your time might be better spent reanalyzing your utmost hate and prejudice for everything Islamic. Not that it really matters in bigger scheme of things because you are inconsequential but your personal life might be a lil more joyous if let go of this bigotry.

Nadeem Sahab..

World Cup 2003 with greats like Waseem, Waqar, Shoaib, Razzaq where the odds were thin; the Pakistani show wasn`t impressive. Mind you, Inzi wasn`t the skipper.
But I don`t see you targeting Waseem for betting on those matches and 1999 World Cup? What do you have to say about that? Waseem made a fortune by selling nationalism. Is he criticised? No, he is still the hero.

And more on Tableeghi `Jamaat`, there were some low lying areas which have not been researched as of yet.

Religion by compulsion is temporary; and pressure tactics doesn`t land squarely in the Tableeghi camp. And pressure by Inzi might not have booked a place for Kaneria at all. Logical?

Purely criticizing Religion is not NFP`s standard.

But, if the so-called `Penetration` by the Tableeghi`s is to be put to question, then there ought to be some materialistic motive after it? But I fail to see that with Tableeghis. That`s what I see in them, being an ignorant.

In a gist, its not religion. Its partly the scandals which have riddled hollow the Pakistan camp. Darryl Hair, Naseem Ashraf replacing the former manager, Opening batting pair, Doping.Need I say more?

Anyways, for an apparent but a short walkthrough, kindly check into www.maulanatariqjameel.net with AN OPEN and EDUCATED MIND and not critical ones for once`s sake to check into this TJ thing, seriously.
And kindly come out of the notion that Religion dulls one`s mind.

Re: # 17 - Indians prefer going OPEN RELATIONSHIPS. Nothing formal but only a one night stand.
How justifiable.

Re: # 17

After all the education and IT plaza and Infosys`s, you`ll still be ugly as a fcuk, you still would have to burn your mother alive with ur dead father, u still would have to stick ur hand in cows ass to get some holy water so u can purify urself, you still will never ever be able to enjoy the heaven that is bihari kabab, u still will be bitter at Muslims because they rode ur asses for 800 years even though u were a huge majority cause u cant go back at draw balls on ur forefathers, and no matter what happens, whether pakistan has democracy or not whether they are educated or not, they will always always look you directly in your eyes while u pee in ur pants, ur numbers, ur technological superiority, ur planes, ur bombs means shit till you start growing balls and that aint gonna happen till u start eating the gaoo mata that u insist on worshipin rather than roasting.

Re: # 19 - And if Inzi was so much authoritative, an easy revolt agent(s) could have been found out (bikaao maal) and PCB would have initiated Inzi`s premature exit.

Logical again?

But from the onset, majority of the teams seems to be voting out of the so-thought and presumed garb-of-fear for Inzimam.

Rest is just flukes, yellow journalism, rumours, and Multiple Personality Disorders.

Re: # 21 :D :D

Re: # 20
Uh, yeah like what ever. Last I heard Europeans, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese don`t marry their relatives generation after generation. Leads to retardation. Ok that`s an extreme statement but it does have a deleterious impact. A colleague of mine is a pathologist and Saudi Arabia is a goldmine for research puposes because the same families marry one another. I don`t think you have to be an Einstein to realize that if you marry first cousins after three generation its like a brother and sister marrying. The ancient Egyptians practised such degrees of intermarriage. A lot of Muslim physician recognize this is a serious issue but it is a loaded one and difficult to broach.

Many immigrants from varying backgrounds, have strong family values with an emphasis on education and want their children not to fall into Western excesses. As a physician I have never seen an Indian, Korean or Chinese single mom. But yes have been consulted on ``consanguinity`` cases and yes you guessed it the only group that has a penchant for marrying their relatives are Muslims. the reason for the consult is the higher rate of all sort of genetic problems. There has not been a study on intellectual development or learning disabilities as of yet. Typically the lagging performance is blamed entirely on racism but Chinese were bonded laborers, had to pay special taxes just to live, were barred from white establishments but their descendents do much better I be than the Muslim immigrants in Europe even though they start out in the same place.

Re: # 21

Thanks for proving my theory. Your inabilty to provide a cogent intelligent response is emblematic of the problem.

Why did you assume I was a Hindu? Because I sound rational?

you guys do know that the Department of Homeland Security considers the Tableeghi Jamaat a terrorist group..

Feds: Arizonan tied to terror
Officials detain Tempe doctor

Dennis Wagner
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 19, 2006 12:00 AM

An Arizona doctor and mosque leader returned to the United States on Wednesday from a pilgrimage in Mecca to face allegations by the FBI and Department of Homeland Security tying him to a terrorist organization.

Nadeem Hassan, 41, made a phone call to his father from Kennedy International Airport in New York, saying he was in the custody of immigration officials.

Zaheer Hasnain said his son does not know whether he will be jailed or allowed to come home.

Days earlier, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services revoked Hassan`s right to work and travel inside the country based primarily on his ties to an orthodox Islamic missionary group that the Department of Homeland Security identified as a terrorist organization.

Hassan, a gastroenterologist at Maricopa Medical Center and former chief executive at the Masjid el-Noor Mosque in Mesa, has worked for years as a coordinator with Jamaat al Tabligh (Society That Propagates the Faith). The worldwide movement calls upon Muslims to live up to their faith.

Jamaat al Tabligh, or JT, previously has not been designated a terrorist group by the government. However, in paperwork rejecting Hassan`s application for a green card, Homeland Security described JT as ``a terrorist organization (that) . . . provides material support . . . to members of a designated terrorist organization - al Qaida; and provides the same types of material support . . . to an undesignated terrorist organization - the Taliban.``

The papers go on to tell Hassan, ``You are found to have engaged in terrorist activity by providing material support to an undesignated terrorist organization.``

Homeland Security representatives declined Wednesday to discuss Hassan`s case. An FBI spokeswoman declined to comment.

Muslim officials expressed shock at the accusations against Jamaat al Tabligh, insisting it is a loose-knit missionary movement that shuns politics and violence. Hasnain said that his son is not a terrorist and that JT ``has nothing to do with the Taliban, nothing to do with al-Qaida.``

``It is a totally god-fearing organization,`` he added.

He said his son, of Tempe, was determined to come home despite fears he would face prison and deportation after his arrival from the Middle East.

Hassan traveled to Saudi Arabia for the Islamic religious rite known as hajj, according to his Phoenix immigration lawyer, Eric Bjotvedt. He obtained ``advance parole`` papers approving that trip while the green-card application was pending. However, on Friday, while Hassan was overseas, Citizenship and Immigration Services denied his permanent residency permit. Because Hassan was outside the country, Bjotvedt said, he lost many legal rights afforded to immigrants who are inside the United States.

``They don`t have a case against him. But they don`t like him. So this is just a perfect way to keep him out of the country,`` Bjotvedt said. ``If he was really a terrorist, he`d be in jail right now. Obviously, he wouldn`t be trying to come back to the U.S.``

Bjotvedt complained that the government`s allegations are vague. However, an eight-page CIS report that he supplied to The Arizona Republic contains detailed explanations as to why Hassan`s residency status was terminated. It says Hassan provided false information on application forms and failed to acknowledge his role with Jamaat al Tabligh.

The agency`s findings are supported by an affidavit from a Phoenix FBI agent, who wrote: ``The JT has been tied to several recent high-profile terrorism cases. John Walker Lindh traveled to Pakistan with Tabligh missionaries after converting to Islam. Once in Pakistan, he signed up for a military training camp and fought for the Taliban.``

The agent also noted that, as former president and chief executive officer at the Masjid el-Noor mosque, Hassan invited ``a known or suspected terrorist`` to serve as visiting imam, or prayer leader. That imam`s visa was revoked after a review by the government`s Terrorist Screening Center, according to the agent.

Finally, the FBI avowal tells of six Yemeni-American men from Lackawanna, N.Y., who traveled to Pakistan in 2001 posing as JT missionaries, then crossed the border into Afghanistan and joined al-Qaida training camps.

The FBI affidavit never directly identifies JT as a terrorist group. Rather, it says the movement ``is vulnerable to being used by Islamic extremists as a cover to recruit members to engage in acts of terrorism against the United States.`` Because of that, the agent concluded, ``the FBI is unable to rule out the possibility that Hassan poses a threat to national security.``

However, Al Gallmann, acting district director in Phoenix for the CIS, named Jamaat al Tabligh as a terrorist organization and branded Hassan as a supporter, citing the FBI intelligence.

Besides concealing the affiliation with JT, Gallmann said, Hassan failed to disclose, as required, former leadership positions with Momin Education and Cultural Services of Arizona and East Valley Masjid Inc., organizations that founded or oversaw Arizona mosques.

``It is clear that either by fraud and/or willful misrepresentation your (application) was submitted with obvious, calculating misrepresentations of material facts,`` Gallmann wrote.

Bjotvedt, the Phoenix immigration lawyer, said he believes the government is using guilt by association against Hassan.

He said his client came to Arizona for medical studies and has worked legally for five years treating indigent patients at Maricopa Medical Center.

After Sept. 11, 2001, Bjotvedt said, Hassan was among the first Muslims in Arizona to be questioned by FBI agents. In January 2002, Hassan applied for permanent residence. After unexplained delays, Bjotvedt said, Hassan filed a lawsuit to expedite the process.

While the application and lawsuit were pending, Bjotvedt said, Hassan obtained other documents allowing his pilgrimage to Mecca with his wife, Amber.

Hassan, who dresses himself in an orthodox robe and turban, works for Medical Professionals of Arizona.

Deedra Abboud, director of the Muslim American Society of Arizona, said she cannot imagine Hassan aiding al-Qaida. She described him as religious, ``an extremely nice guy, humble and shy.``

Abboud and Muzammil Siddiqi, chairman of the Council of Islamic Organizations in Southern California, were among many Muslim leaders to express shock that Jamaat al Tabligh would be accused of terrorism. ``They go out and remind people about their faith,`` Siddiqi said. ``They don`t get involved in political activities.``

Re: # 25
Yes. That`s it anyone who makes an statement that the educated and rational human beings tend to bow down to monkeys, elephants and wash themselves in cow urine, my immediate reaction about them are that they must be rational.

#24 by eastmwest on March 15, 2007 3:42pm PT


Leads to retardation. Ok that`s an extreme statement but it does have a deleterious impact.


Why is that an extreme statement?

It`s just a fact..

Ban Asian marriages of cousins, says MP

Marriages between cousins should be banned after research showed alarming rates in defective births among Asian communities in Britain, a Labour MP said last night.

The report, commissioned by Ann Cryer, revealed that the Pakistani community accounted for 30 per cent of all births with recessive disorders, despite representing 3.4 per cent of the birth rate nationwide.

It is estimated that more than 55 per cent of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins, resulting in an increasing rate of genetic defects and high rates of infant mortality. The likelihood of unrelated couples having the same variant genes that cause recessive disorders are estimated to be 100-1. Between first cousins, the odds increase to as much as one in eight.

In Bradford, more than three quarters of all Pakistani marriages are believed to be between first cousins. The city`s Royal Infirmary Hospital has identified more than 140 different recessive disorders among local children, compared with the usual 20-30.

You sound like a frustrated loser. Please don`t in the fit of ``feeling humiliated`` and ``angry`` at the world blow yourself up. Life at the bottom can be good, just accept that the whole world is moving forward and you can fantasize about beheadings, chopping of hands like the good old days in the seventh century. Were you featured in Melanie Phillips ``Londonstan``? Maybe you can star in the stage version of her book.

Re:abu_safwaan

[..Yes Yes ..in order to accept monkeys, elphants and cow dung as GOD, you must have an IQ of 200, after all this is twilight zone.....]

Mianji, all Pakistanis were hindus once upon a time. In fact, hinduism was invented as a religion along the banks of the Indus river (hence the name sindhu or hindu) in Pakistan region. So go ahead and curse your own forefathers with all your might!!

Simply taking a name like abu_xyz does not make you an arab, you know. You can try as hard as you can, even get all your blood emptied out and get transfusion from some arab. Still, you cant change your genes, my friend. When the arabs and central asians see you, they still think you are a hindu. Kaua chala hans ka chaal.

Re: # 29

I will do all o that n more that u r asking me to do as soon as u guys stop being ugly and start using deodrant, deal?

Re: # 31

Abu Shaytaan, excellent going, you must be an ardent follower of Sunna.. Just don’t go around screwing underage girls. Thanks.

Re: # 31

abu-sufyan,

....... why are you getting so upset ? ..... don`t you see anything wrong with the cricket team being associated with the tableegi jamaat, a known terrorist organization ?..... the poor pakistani nation loves cricket - it is the only thing that brings them some joy in their miserable lives ....... now, what would happen if the team was barred from entering the uk or australia because of these bearded fools ?........... think about all those little kids and stop being so selfish ..... shame on you !

Re: # 33

I think its a crime that they belong to tableeghi jamaat, they should be lined up and shot point blank, my question however was regarding the well-being of ur daughetrs whose Promiscuity you parade on CHOWK as a badge of honor, something that i haven`t even seen from the Gora master that you are infatuated with.

If a hundred years ago, the brits could field Maulana W. G. Grace, why cant pakistan?

#34 abu safwaan: Please try to live up to the fact that Hamidm assumed that he could mention his daughter on chowk without having to read cheap insults directed her way.

HERE COMES MUHAMMAD YOUSUF

By: Hasan Mansoor
September 25, 2005


In 1992, Yousuf Youhana dreamt that he was playing with Saeed Anwar (a clean-shaven and stylish left-hander opener). It took five years for his dream to come true. Saeed Anwar played a role in introducing him to the cricket hierarchy in Pakistan, played with him and then finally got him converted to Islam. Many people in Pakistan still question whether Saeed Anwar was Yousuf’s dream or vice versa. Saeed Anwar is part of a coterie of many former Pakistani cricketers who are consistently working at seeding orthodoxy among Muslim cricketers.

Three years ago, Anwar sported a flowing beard on his face and next year he formally quit the arena. The reason for Anwar’s conversion from a music and art lover to an orthodox Muslim is generally attributed to his three-year-old mentally-retarded daughter’s death.

He then became a part of the Tablighi Jamaat of Raiwind (a place in Punjab famed for the country’s biggest religious congregation held each year) and joined a select group of former cricketers to make the national team religious minded. Youhana has shifted his two children from an English medium school in Lahore to a modern Islamic madrassa and he himself will soon be seen sporting a flowing beard.

Anwar frequently addresses Tablighi Jamaat’s meetings across the country and recently he told an audience that he was regretful that his cricketing life was not also dedicated to Islam. He said the scales had fallen from his eyes and he was now completely dedicated to Islam.

He said Shahid Afridi, Mushtaq Ahmed, Inzamam ul Haq and Saqlain Mushtaq too had joined him and become a votary of Tablighi Jamaat. The crowd was crying as he made his speech.

Noted intellectual Khaled Ahmed condemns the Tablighi Jamaat’s influence on the team and asks authorities to be watchful.

“Tablighi Jamaat is converting Pakistani sports into a losing enterprise. Another decade and we might have to ground all the sportsmen. At least there would be no national humiliation after that.” He adds, “PCB bosses should take note of what is happening under their nose. Youhana’s conversion is an eye-opener.”

Ahmed has some disturbing facts about Tablighi Jamaat. “One has to be careful about the fact that Tablighi Jamaat is on the watch-list in the West, and our increasingly bearded cricket team could be targeted under the new anti-terrorist laws being introduced in the UK and Australia.

Americans say many al Qaeda members have claimed connection to Tablighi Jamaat, including the ‘American Taliban’ John Walker Lindh, captured in Afghanistan.”

After becoming an orthodox Muslim, Saeed Anwar was given the primary task to work on his teammates and his former cricket mates. Soon the team emerged with strong religious tendencies.

This is evident from the gestures they make on the field. More often than not, they thank God for their success even before greeting team-mates who bring them victory.

Former Pakistan Captain Salim Malik has also jumped onto the Raiwind bandwagon. He has formally joined the Tablighi Jamaat and is busy spreading Islam.

This is the same Salim Malik who was banned by the Pakistan Cricket Board from domestic and international cricket on the recommendations of Justice Qayyum Commission for corruption.

Then Malik spent three days at Raiwind accompanied by Saeed Anwar, Waqar Younis and Inzamam ul Haq. Malik now prays five times a day. “Going back to religion is not seeking refuge,” Malik says, “It is simply going back to one’s roots.”
Youhana has been indebted to Anwar for bringing him into the team and
in the process developed a close friendship with Anwar’s brother, Javed.

The two siblings got the young Christian to attend the Raiwind gatherings while his wife Tania (now Fatima) has been handed over to the cricketers’ wives to take her to religious home gatherings.

Sources in the cricket team say Youhana had formally decided to convert and got the blessings of Maulana Jamil and Maulana Abdul Wahab in Raiwind. Both clerics allowed him to keep it secret because he feared his conversion would ruin his relationship with his parents in the process.

“There were two things in Youhana’s mind. One, he wanted to cement his presence in the team and second, he wanted his bond with his parents to stay intact till he achieved a permanent place in the game,” a former Pakistani cricketer says.

Although Youhana denies his conversion is aimed at clinching the team’s captaincy in the future, sources say he was dejected when he was stripped of vice captaincy and replaced by Younus Khan. For many, religion is a viable solution in this Muslim-dominated country.

Youhana kept the secret successfully for three long years and even his mother only learnt about it after he offered Umrah (pilgrimage) in Saudi Arabia along with Inzamam ul Haq and other teammates who had originally went there to play three matches against the Lashings World-XI (the series could not kick off due to sponsorship controversy).
On his return, Youhana formally announced his conversion by offering prayers in Qaddafi Stadium during a training camp along with skipper Inzamam and teammates Shahid Afridi, Abdur Razzaq, Taufiq Omer, Rao Iftikhar, Kamran Akmal, Arshad Khan and many PCB officials.

Interestingly, the prayer leader was Naeem Butt, who was formerly a TV and stage artist and has now become a preacher. After the prayers, all the teammates hugged Youhana and congratulated him for embracing Islam. Yousuf says Prophet Muhammad is his ideal and would follow his teachings for the rest of his life.

Now, Danish Kaneria is the only non-Muslim (a Hindu) member of the Pakistan cricket team. PCB officials fear he may be the next target for Saeed Anwar and company.

Re: # 17


as you can see from above table pakistanis and bangladeshis are closing the gap

Re: # 38

Aslam,

What are we looking at here ?

Re: # 39
percentage of school kids achieving 5 and above good GCSE results

Re: # 36

Ok so me let me understand this. He can and must disrespect the most revered human being for us, someone who is more important for us than our mom`s, dad`s, brothers sisters, our own children, he must disrespect and spew venom against women that we revere as our spiritual mother but we can`t bring up the fact that he gloats on how many dates his daugters has been on on and how they share ``ICE CREAM`` with their boyfreinds in car. wah janab....junnon ko khirad kardiya, khirad ko junoon..jo chahayy soo aapka husn-e-karishma saaz karay.

Re: # conti
class does matter

People in employment in managerial or professional occupations: by ethnic group, 2004, GB

Re: # 41

abu-sufyan,

......... i know it is hard, but please stop being an idiot ....... not that i care, but can you point out where i `gloated` about `dates` and `icecreams` ? ........ look, prophets and their unwed mothers are public figures (even if some of them are mythical) and deserve to be ridiculed for their foibles and antics ........ but you can`t go around besmirching the good name of real people specially if you don`t know them - if nothing else, it is bad manners and their uncle tahmed just might slap you ..........

Re: # 42

aslam main,

....... that is not bad considering all the consanguinity - think what they could do if they married someone other than their first cousin !

So you and your daughter`s are good name?? hahahahahahahahahaha..abbayy heera mandii kii paydawar..do u even know who your real father is? don`t come in the kitchen if u can`t put up with heat.. if u want to discuss issues stick with issues..when u disrespect our prophet and disrespect the wives of prophets then as far as i m concerned i will treat u as i would treat a hindoo on these boards. u r a bitter old man who sold his sole for pety green card. I have never heard single intelligent argument from u supporting the despise u have for Islam and Prophet(PBUH) rather u resort to sarcasm and insults, what do u expect in return u moron. Just because your molvi sahab molested u when u were a kidd it doesnt mean that all muslims and Islam itself is evil.

Its rather stupid to threaten people with physical violence on internet, keep punching the air. But if u r ever in pakistan and still have the inclination to slap me, let me know and i`ll show up..apna shauq poora karnayy kii koshish karlijyayy gaa..baqii rahayy naam Allah ka.

Re: # 45

abu mian,

...... look, don`t get your chadddi in knots over nothing - i never threatened you with physical violence, all i did was point out that their uncle might get mad at you ........ and please don`t disrespect the ladies of heera mandi - they are perhaps the only honorable people left amongst the ummah ........

I think you are totally misquoting Inzimam. He was saying this to the audience ( LUMS students ) and not to the cricket team mates. Nonetheless, I do not support Tableghi Jammat`s agenda though but it should be purely a metter of choice.

Inzi has unwittingly islamized the cricket which Dr. Israr had held to be a satanic pastime. As far `nimaazifying` the cricketers the result is quite obvious as Allah has Himself said in Sura Almaun (107), ``Weilu Lil Musaleena...``, (Barbaadi he musalluion yehni Nimazion ke lie jo dikhawa karte hein apni mazhab baazi ka), Inshaallah, Maashaallah.

#45 by abu_safwaan on March 15, 2007 7:58pm PT


when u disrespect our prophet and disrespect the wives of prophets


Mo was a demon possessed pedophile..so there...

Re: # 49

arjun,

........ that was not very nice - now we will have a riot on chowk .......... besides, that guy looks like a sikh and not a bedouin - bedouins wear those camel-hobblers on their head, not turbans ............

abbayy bhindii....u won`t hesitate to burn ur own mother with ur dead father..go wash urself with cow urine, the stinge is dying, i dont discuss religion and politics with mooli`s who bow down to cows and monkeys and wash themselves in cow-urine.. prereq to discuss religion with me is to be able to have a big juicy burger, and when i say ``have`` i mean eat it n not start prostrating to it.

#51 by abu_safwaan on March 15, 2007 9:08pm PT

thinking of moHAMmed makes me want to order pork chops..

#49,
arjun, that is very nasty. Our views, arguements and opinions should never come to that.
Cheerios
Chowk Staff,
Please remove this.
Thanx

abu_goatbrain is on the internet..if he doesn`t like reading stuff about mo, he can go back to his madrassah...

Re: # 54
abbay arjun putrewdsfhwjakayrewratpujaran.... i know that u r pissed off at the world..but believe u me it aiant our fault that u r ugly as a fcuk, i know u dont get respect in the world because u r short n skinny but its not the doings of muslims..i know that u look around n u see these fair skinned tall helthy muslims n u get jelous n bitter n since u r smart enough to not confront them in real life because u know that they`ll whoop ur ass back to gunpathii puppa`s time, u take the frustration out here in cyberspace cause u know that its rather hard to get biatch-slapped here on chowk. Like i said go stick ur hands in cows rear end...peeshab ka nasha toot raha hayy bhindii..

#41 abu safwan: ``most revered human being``

a muslim reveres all human beings equally, and there is no individual closer or further away from Allah. Therefore, a muslim distinguishes between muhammed the human being and the message that God conveyed through him, which he did quite faithfully (as is proved by the fact that the message places severe restrictions on the role of the prophet himself to being a messenger and no more).

ttempts to ``ridicule`` the prophet as a means to insult muslims (as genius arjun has been trying to do for years using the limited repertoire of means his single digit IQ has bestowed upon him) would be seen as being as stupid as attempts to spit at the moon - no amount of ridicule can take away the dignity of the basic message of islam.

#50 hamidm: please...dont discourage arjun from demonstrating his genius. he reminds me of that pathetic individual in The Munster Family who tried to impress a female with his cool by sticking a drinking straw in each of his nostrils. :-)

NFP
Don`t know how much the Tablighi Jamaat`s grip over the Pakistan cricket team is responsible for the team`s recent ``lackluster approach,`` however, I must admit I was a bit taken aback when Inzi made that comment in the said TV show. It just came out of the blue, as if Inzi had gone there to intice a few LUMS students into joining the Jamaat. What was even funnier was the look on the other guest, Imran Khan and host Rameez`s face, when Inzi said that. Inzi`s sudden comment had absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

From yanabi.com:


Asalam-o-Alaikum
I heard some good news...Alhamdulilah, 5 cricket stars Muhammad Sami, Kamran Akmal, Imran Farhat, Faisal Iqbal & Shahid Nazir go to International madani markaz of Dawat-e-Islami Faizan-e-Madinah (Karachi) and they have also done bayt to Ameer-e-Ahle Sunnat Hazrat Moulana Muhammad Ilyas Attar Qadri Sahib (damat barkathum).. while doing bayt Alhamdulilah these brothers have taken the right path (the path to Jannah InshaAllah) and they pledge to Allah and asked for forgivness..
May Allah forgive these brothers and show all the Ummah of Hazoor paak the right path...Ameen

:-)

The Tableeghis are mindless dullards. Most of them don`t even have an education. What Fatass should have said was that the team needs ``taleem`` not Deeni Taleem. I`m sure a couple of classes in evolutionary bio or physics would have slapped the beards right off their faces. My sympathies with Danish and Yusuf`s families for having to deal with this madness. But what can one do... Pakistan is not a secular nation and will not be for years to come.

Abu-safwaan and Arjun,

Are you guys going for the Beavis-Butthead awards here ? The terminal fixation
Abu-safwaan has about cow excreta, about martial Pakistani men who strike terror in
Hindus/Jews/Christians and women of Heera Mandi, and his own fictional manhood is a bit
troubling.
Arjun, Prophet Mohammad did things that would qualify him as a murderous pedophile
thug in recent times. However, he would have the entire Hindu pantheon of gods and
goddesses for company. These guys just didn`t have the moral compass we have. Kya
karein ?

p.s: and cool it off on the IT thingie. It comes off as being colossally insecure.

tahmed32
#56
I apprecaite your intervention on behalf of abu_safwaan, but you are pathetically biased. Being an elder and self styled moderator amongst the community, you ought to have shown more neutrality.

abu_safwaan started this tit for tat by using a particular word in #8. Some saner person who happened to be Indian questioned him and he just let loose and tit for tat began. Now you appear to be taking sides in a dirty game the precursor to which was abu_safwaan.
Secondly, if you all are so religious, howcome you write or support filth on the same page where Quranic Ayaats appear. Have a heart.

Do you wish that Pakistanis like me move to better moderated boards because of some zealots want to marginalise everyone other than their brand of beliefs and intellectuals like you support them.

Nicely written NFP :)

Inzi seems like a really nice guy- it`s a pity this Tableeghi bunch got their claws into him. And if refusing to toe the religious line is why Shoaib is out of the World Cup, then Pakistan have bigger problems than who`ll use the new ball?

abu_safwaan sounds suspiciously like porkershark from UP!

Re: # 42

You don`t seem to understand. The indepth report attempted to compare groups by matching families by socioeconomic factors and the educational background of parents and even then Indians did much better than other groups. In fact Indian Muslims ranked higher than Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. It is a topic of curiosity among Britishers themselves as I was asked by a visiting professor at MIT why this was the case. What I am trying to communicate is that the daughter of a Gujerati tailor who is Hindu will do much better academically than a daughter of a tailor who is Paksitani/ Bangladeshi. I will find try to find the report (it is online) and post it. The most underperforming group is actually Pakistani boys. This is not somehting I find amusing or am gloating about. It is distressing. Similar trends are occuring in Canada. Also when you consider there is something like 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world it has not gone unnoticed that in the most intellectually rigorous fields they are sorely underrepresented. Take cryptography for instance I have a cousin doing his Phd at a top institiute. Who dominates the field? Jews, Chinese, Indians and Europeans (far fewer Americans). You can look up top research labs across the world and the same holds true.

A renowned Swedish scientist remarked privately that the two groups you will rarley come across doing cutting edge research are Arabs and Blacks. Much to do has been made about the Golden Age of Islam but if you scratch beneath the surface you will realize the the Arabs for the large part incubated knowledge from Persians, Indians etc... and transmitted it to Europe. In fact the original translator give generous due to original sources. The latest UN report about the Arab world is a damning one, its the only place where literacy is decreasing! There is not culture of reading and intellectual inquisitiveness. I am talking about countries that have billions of dollars of oil wealth. But the question is why have they failed to produce students that are vied for across the world? I mean the head of Oxford Chris Patten is traveling to India to entice students to study at Oxford and he publicly stated he has to in order to compete with like of Harvard, Stanford etc...Can you honestly imagine him or anyone doing the same for Muslim students? It amuses me to no end the wholesale derision some Pakistanis have for Indic culture while having reverence for Arabic culture. Funny no one else in the world shares that tendency. That includes btw Chinese and Japanese.

Guys

Go and read my ilog.

Re: # 66

Interesting...I am familiar with most of it. The stories of the prophet cannodling with the young Coptic slavegirl much to the annoyance of his wives is no news to me. Neither is the promise of young boys in heaven or Arab imperialism masked as a faith.

Hey Abu here is a link on the long history of pederasty in the Islamic world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_the_Islamic_lands

Your holy prophet himself warned about the temptions of beardless youth. Part and parcel of the sexual hypocrisy that Islam perpetuates. The criticism of western licentiousness is a joke...Muslims societies have long been considered a gay man`s heaven. A lot of the Orientalists were drawn to Arabia for this very reason. Kind of explains how a group of men can sustain themselves in remote hidden caves. I mean are they actually celibate?

Last question Abu, so please remind us who have your ancestors been riding? Or should I ask who is riding you :)?

ijaz_gul: I came into this discussion a bit late, and had not read abu_safwan`s post #8. So, please dont assume that I have read every post on this board - hell, i havent even read the article yet, and I just jumped in when I saw one of hamidm`s entertaining posts.

I have read #8 now that you mention it, and I see that you are referring to a_s reference to christians as ``bhangis``. I am not obliged to make my views known on every single thing any poster writes, because please understand that would then require me to spend 100 hours each day on chowk.

Nevertheless, not that I owe you any comments on anything anyone else wrote, I can say that I have in the past seen such language used for christians and have in fact spoken out against it. Specifically, I have on such occassions noted that all individuals, regardless of religion, are equal per the Quran (and indeed a truly ``educated`` person does not need the Quran to understand this simple proposition). The fact that many Pakistanis persist in looking down upon sweepers and servants and so forth, and for using the term for sweepers (``bhangis``) to ridicule christians simply reflects shortcomings in their own character.

You also refer to me as a self-style moderator and thus swing the other way from accussing me of not making comments on what someone wrote. I do of coure comment on posts written by others - but that is no more than what everyone else and does not make me a ``self-styled moderator``. For inappropriate language (which you also refer to), please be more specific my cutting and pasting what you found objectionable.

A boo boo Safainwala,

That`s wrong to sidetrack the issue here. Pl stick to the point(s) raised by Nadeem.

Re: # 68

All people regardless of religion are equal as per Quran? That`s news to me! You mean agnostics, atheists, Taoists, Buddhists etc...? So according to the Quran if my Persian friend converts to Christianity after marrying a Chinese Christian she is not supposed to be stoned to death? According to her that is the prescribed punishment and its exactly what the highest moral authority would decide in Iran let alone other Muslim nations. Egregious crimes, mob rule, fanaticism, intolerance, racism, elitism exist everywhere. I think Islamic nations are unique in having their highest moral authority sanction the death sentence for apostasy. Oh and the equality bit...please you have got to be kidding. Go to the Gulf states and look at their labor laws.

#68 by tahmed32
So the lesson learnt is to never comment on an issue without having deliberated. It suits the multinickers but not you.

Though there is a passing reference to a particular word in #8, there has been a spate of blasphemous remarks on Hinuism and Islam including the pasting of a cartoon. As a Pakistani well aware of the perils of Pakistan Penal Code Section 295C, I find it strange that shady Characters like Abu_Safwaan can ingnite such hatred and then tolerate it.

Is sab kuch se to mujey bhi sharam atti hai.

Cheerios

Re: # 71

Q: What`s a multinicker?

Eik aurat, hazar khasam.
Same individual with many IDs. So if one gets banned, he still keeps appearing.

Re: # 55

FYI: Abu Safwaan is also the name of one of Lawrence of Arabia`s lovers. Is that why you choose you moniker? I knew you had a thing for blondes :D. Sorry Beckham is married and straight.

Re: # 73

Well I have never been active on this site before. It might comes as a suprise but most of my views are shared by a large constituency of progressive mined people from ALL walks oflife and varying faiths and ethnicities. NOT confined to Indians or Hindus. I guess this is particularily hard to digest. That is why I choose to participate.

ijazgul: you my friend, are a gentleman. i still remember the wonderful manner in which you responded to last years earthquake by organizing your own relief truck to go to the affected areas.

f chowk was a moderated board, you would have only intelligent, self-respecting individuals posting on chowk. However, chowk has proved incapable and/or unwilling to implement its interact guidelines. As a result it has stagnated, and instead of attracting large numbers of people of your caliber while getting rid of those who see it as a safe and secure forum to insult others, chowk serves to attract a handful of individuals ranging from true ladies and gentlemen to individuals who can only be described as lab specimen and/or clinically insane.

cheers. :-)

Re: # 76

I think I posited a legitimate reply to your assertion that everyone, regardless of their religion is considered equal as per Quran. So my Persian friend is wrong? I am curious to hear your reply.

If Islam so egalitarian and tolerant as you seem to suggest, why is it the only religion that specifies death for apostasy. Most schools of Islamic thought support this. Please spare me the bit about no compulsion in reilgion. That was the tagline when it was a weak. I really want to understand why so many Muslim countries specify death for apostasy.

Re: # 77

eastmwest:

Why are you so upset. You say that you are a liberal and yet you stereotype Muslims. Look at chowk. Lets take some of the sensible Muslims here: Hamid, tahmed and masadi. Heck they disagree on everything. If schools of Islamic thought prescribe something what can most Muslims do. These schools won`t even let a guy like masadi near them. As far as zeemax and urstruly are concerned they may only accept their donations and nothing else. I do not want to go into it again but even Mr. Bin Laden is opposed to most of these schools (I am not saying that BL does not support death for apostasy .... I do not know).

So please do calm down. And also do not force poor old tahmed to repeat his thoughts again and again. If you are interested in his individualistic Islam just check his earlier posts.

I wish you well ... and welcome to chowk.

The reason I am emphatic about this is that I am not suprised at all by the course taken by the Pakistani cricket team. Natural extension when you look at the laws of the land. In Saudi Arabia the punishement for being a Bahia is death penalty.

Re: # 78

The reason I am so irate has partly stems from my frustration with people who want tolerance but often unwittingly are themselves agents of intolerance. In the 1980`s there was a large migration of Bahia`s, members of probably one of the most enlightened progressive religions in the world. Do you know who the mullahs executed with fury? Well the first female surgeon of Iran for example. This was way before 9/11, Irag (complete miscarriage of justice) and Muslims feeling scorned for their faith. In Egypt everyone has to carry an identity card and they can choose only one of three faiths: Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Please give me one example of Muslim outrage and subsequent collective action to demonstrate and protect minority rights. I have countless examples of the reverse.

Lastly: Why are Muslim countries the ONLY ones in the world who think it is totally normal to kill someone because they want to leave Islam? I am really skeptical that the majority of Muslims have a problem with this which really creeps out the rest of the world.

#79 by eastmwest
Back to cricket.
Inzi is now lost. His LUMS show gave ample indicators that he considers himself the sole manager of cricket at international level. He went to the extent of saying that Woolmer only does the coaching that he tells him to do and words like, `mein ne us ko bahir kar diya, us ko ander kar diya` As regards your comment, well the tip of the iceberg is like the iceberg.

When I comment on cricket, or any event for that matter, I do so after verification. Inzi is now lost and a victim of his own foolhardiness. So now there is discord in the team. I reproduce below the following:
..............................................................................................................................
Karachi, March 16: Internal bickerings and disagreement on several issues in the Pakistan team management have demotivated players taking part in the World Cup, according to sources in their camp.

They said that already there have been a couple of incidents which highlight there is friction in the squad and captain Inzamam-ul-Haq was not handling things well.
``There is no doubt about the ability of this team to go all the way in the World Cup. The talent, experience and skills are there. What is lacking is motivation and a collective agreement on the strategy to be adopted for each match,`` one of the well-informed sources informed from Kingston, Jamaica.

``As far as coach Bob Woolmer is concerned, he is more interested in his columns and diaries for a website and improving his public relations in the cricket fraternity. He apparently has lost communcation channels with the captain and many of the players and is just counting his day before his contract expires in June,`` one source said.

He said that since the Pakistan Cricket Board had not bothered to get Woolmer`s contract vetted when it was prepared in 2004, it had a number of clauses in it which allowed the former England player to not only write in the media but also take up other assignments.

``His influence is now negligent and the truth is that Inzamam does not bother to listen to either manager Talat Ali or media manager Pervez Mir and does what he likes,`` the source said.

The source also disclosed that in a recent incident, Inzamam had behaved harshly with Mir and refused to attend a press conference when he went to fetch him.

``Mir went and complained to the manager and he simply said welcome to the club. Mir than went to Board Chairman Nasim Ashraf and demanded action be taken against Inzamam for refusing to attend the conference and was told it would be better if he took either Woolmer or vice captain Younis Khan instead to the conference,`` the source revealed.

In another incident which reflects there is a collective agreement on all matters missing in the team, many of the players felt that fast bowler Mohammad Sami should play instead of the out of form Rana Naved but after a decision on this at the team meeting, Inzamam decided to stick with Naved on the morning of the match.

The team sources said there was also no unison on what to do after winning the toss with one group insisting on batting first and the other one backing Inzamam and Woolmer`s viewpoint to field first on the relaid pitch.

The source also disclosed that after the defeat to West Indies in the World Cup opener, Inzamam had tried to give a dressing down to the players in an emergency team meeting in the dressing room but it ended up with an hot exchange of words with his deputy Younis Khan.

``Inzamam castigated Imran Nazir for playing a loose shot and getting out recklessly despite being told by the coach not to repeat the same shot. At this time, Younis said he had said that it would be better to select Yasir Hameed instead of Nazir,`` the source said.

``Inzamam rebutted him and reminded him that he (Younis) had also played a bad shot and brought pressure on the other batsmen. Younis reacted to this and said than Inzamam should instead bat at number three and he would go lower down the order,`` the source said.

These sort of happenings in the Pakistan team are not new and have happened in the past. ``Infact, one of the biggest enemies of the Pakistan cricket team has been their ability to shoot themselves in the feet despite the emotional attachment the people of Pakistan have with cricket and the effect it has on the nation`s mood and psyche``, the source added.
.................................................................................................................................
Cheerios.

Re: # 79

I already knew that Saudi Arabia has some of the most hypocritical and barbaric laws in the world, but I did not know that they kill Bihais just because they are Bihais. Can you please give a reference? Thanks.

eastmwest #77 sorry, i didnt read your earlier reply. normally, i would not discuss issues about islam with indians given that most of the indian posters seem to be here looking for arguments. however, you seem to have a legitimate interest, and so i am appreciate your interest and am pleased to answer.

On apostasy: there is no muslim country i know of except afghanistan (which has its own version of tribal traditions confused with islam), that specifies death (or any other punishment) for ``apostasy``. Even in the exception that proves the rule (afghanistan), the only time they tried to implement it there was an international outcry and the afghan government dropped the matter.

The very concept of ``apostasy`` is rooted not in islamic tradition, but in the christian church of the middle ages (the severity with which this was regarded no doubt being driven not by religion but by money - loss of church members meant loss of revenue to the church). The term ``apostasy`` does not even a corresponding word in urdu or arabic that i am aware of!! Indeed, when the muslims made their initial rapid advance across north africa and into spain and gascogne, they were either neutral and some cases even discouraged conversions into islam because the money incentive worked the other way for them (the jaziya tax from non-muslims made it profitable not to have too many conversions!!)

Some islamist extremists no doubt once in a while will issue calls for death to apostates (including some hot air balloons on chowk), but they have no roots in islamic tradition and certainly not in the Quran which, as i have always pointed out, has been overwritten by the hadees. And despite what you think - the Quran is very strict in telling the self-styled judges on religious issues (those seeking to impose sharia law in pakistan for example) to go to hell (figuratively and literally) since these are matters for God to judge.

Similarly, some islam-haters (including some hot air balloons on chowk), try once in a while to treat the views of the islamists extremists as representing true islam - but that is simply not true if one examines muslim history or tradition as i have tried to summarize above.

Hope this clarifies the confusion surrounding this question.

Raiwind IX ? I thought there were XI players in a cricket team ...

#83 by tahmed32,

tahmed, do you have a propensity to pick the smelliest of them all? Now you`re smelling this eastmwest character ...

#78 by GT

As far as zeemax and urstruly are concerned they may only accept their donations and nothing else.

What does this remark mean?

#85 it is hard to tell what someone smells like through the internet. :-)

but seriously, this was the first post from eastmwest i read and since it seemed to be a genuine question chose to respond.

Re: # 83

Thanks for your reply. I am defnitely a universalist and abhor relgious fanatacism by any group. It is no one`s business what religion a person wants to follow. Besides I have always been a fan of Chisti ``Love towards all, malice towards none`` and his Sufi compatriots. Your reply was informative and I do hope (I don`t read arabic) accurate.

But what about the Blasphemy laws? Perhap that`s what I was referring to. I mean why are people in Pakistan, Iran etc... condemned to death for questioning Mohammed? Not to be a smart alek but who would want their daughter to marry such a man. Marrying Safiyyah after killing her husband and father! I am sure you have heard all the negative comparisons but I mean why not question and debate (that includes Zionism, Hindutva nuttiness etc..)

ps Bahi`as in Saudi are not allowed to worship publicly and only if they prosytelize ie. try to convert Muslims is the death punishment rendered but that goes for any group.

Here is info on Bahi`as in Egypt:Yalla Bye-Bye, Ya Baha`i
Not content to arrest peaceful demonstrators, jail leading opposition figures for years on trumped-up charges, or have plainclothes security officers photographed kicking defenseless civilians in the streets, the Egyptian regime has pulled another doozy: denying the Baha`i religion exists.

We`ve been following the plight of Baha`is in the Middle East for a while now, though primarily in Iran - where 100,000+ Baha`is are not only outlawed but face a range of official persecution (and a covert yet official policy of ethnic cleansing). The problem is that Baha`is follow a prophet who came after Muhammad, thus breaking the glass ceiling that allows for ``tolerated`` dhimmi religious minorities. That sticky fact has created problems for Baha`is across the region. (One random example: Baha`is are not legally recognized in Tunisia.)

While Egypt apparently has only 2,000 Baha`i citizens, they have now become a political hot potato. (Read a quick overview of Baha`is in Egypt over the past 150 years.) A Baha`i couple recently wrote ``Baha`i`` in the ``religion`` section of a government form - and promptly had their IDs confiscated. Egypt does not recognize Baha`is, and so the case has gone to court. Unsurprisingly, the Muslim Brotherhood and other hotheads have weighed in on the infidel-ity of the Baha`i. And now Egypt’s Supreme Administrative Court has ruled against the Baha`i family.

But Kudos to the Egpytian Initiative for Personal Rights - which has boldly defended individual religious freedom despite the odds and helped represent the Baha`is in court. EIPR describes a nasty scene there:

Lawyers and other individuals seated in the courthouse interrupted and heckled defense counsel each time they tried to address the court and yelled insults at them, calling them “infidels” and threatening them with physical violence during the hearing. Unable to impose order in the courtroom, the Court briefly adjourned the hearing before resuming the proceedings in camera. When the hearing was adjourned, courthouse security officers refused to protect lawyers who were surrounded by members of the crowd, verbally threatened, pushed, shoved and not allowed to walk away from the area.

Sounds like the good ol` days in the American South, when African-Americans seeking basic legal rights not only lost rigged court cases but had to face a hostile mob. Today, in 2006, the treatment of Baha`i in Egypt - and in states across the Middle East - is a litmus test of civil rights repression. Hopefully the court ruling can be reversed and a glimmer of light can at last shine on one of the region`s proud indigenous religions.

UPDATE: Here is a moving appeal by the Baha`i community:

- We cannot move securely in Egypt, our dear nation.
- We cannot document our marital contracts.
- We cannot obtain birth certificates for our children. Obtaining death certificates has also become a problem.
- We canno