Justice, Judiciary and Journalist

Re: # 40

bulleya;

I meant ... can something be done about the internet access. In any case, if it is just the lawyers and the media then nothing much is going to come from it. Some patching up here and there and that will be about it. If the disgruntled army faction gets in or/and the MMA leadership gets in things may turn worse. But IF the unwashed masses get excited and brush aside leaders and simply air THEIR views then irrespective of whether Musharaf survives or not, only good can happen.

now listen to this latest from Musharraf -- he is backing down -- says Chaudry is still the CJ -- the coward now blames Shaukat Aziz for the firing.!!


ISLAMABAD: President Gen Pervez Musharraf has said the “manhandling” of suspended Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry by security personnel and police was an “unfortunate incident”.

The president said this at a meeting on Wednesday night at which all aspects of the judicial crisis following the chief justice’s suspension were reviewed, a federal minister told Online on condition of anonymity on Thursday.

The president expressed disappointment at the manhandling of the chief justice while he was being taken to the Supreme Court building on Tuesday, the sources said.

He said the incident had bought shame to Pakistan and that Justice Chaudhry must be treated with respect and honour, as he is still chief justice of Pakistan.

He added that he had not issued any directives to withdraw the chief justice’s privileges. He said there was no ban on meeting the chief justice.

Gen Musharraf said that he took the decision to file a reference against the chief justice on the advice of the prime minister and now it was up to the Supreme Judicial Council to decide the case.

The government would not interfere in this matter, he said, according to the sources.(Daily Times)


Uzre Gunah budtur uz Gunah....The `incident` has not brought shame on Pakistan -- Musharraf has brought shame on Pakistan. Iss sadgee peh kaun nu mur jai ai khoda...

yes Omair u may be right -- looks like the Pirzada did it -- his refusal to defend Musharraf pull the rug under Musharraf`s arrogance -- yet the deluded man thinks he is above the `incident`....!

GT#: ....I am in the final days of moving back to the Pakistan area......I didn`t realize my arrival would instigate such a ruckus :-).......Wish I was there, right now......One cannot miss such important historical events.......Sure beats a 9-5 job.......Due to this, I am spending quite a bit of time getting info from Pakistan......However, someone who is actually on the ground would know better........Perhaps Manto....

......What I do know is that I have never seen so much, across the society, support for any one person, i.e. CJ........every site one goes to, everyone one talks to is on his side due a combination of three issues, in which he is directly and indirectly involved:

- America should not be allowed to bomb and kill Pakistanis in Waziristan
- Govt. should not be allowed to pick up people, without a trial, regardless of USA`s GWOT
- CJ should be a figure of higher authority than the COAS

.....This is across the board, from maulvis to IT executives....Only the very pro-Western tiny elite is not supporting this.....Even expats are on the CJ side.......Though perhaps not the USA expats.....

One thing I must say, which I have been saying for the past six months, after spending six months in Pakistan doing research for a book, last year......I discovered that there were only two groups in Pakistan, who took on the govt., without fear: the media and the lawyers.......this conclusion has proven true.....

AndI also discovered that the civil judicial system in Pakistan still has some level of competence......And that people still have some respect for it.......More respect than they have for the police and other govt. depts........Kind of like the respect, they use to have for the military at one time......

I think Musharraf may well be able to ride this out, through a deal with certain politicians and help from USA......But he is permanently damaged........and I think beyond repair......Uptil this time, I think he viewed himself as a figure who was assisting the, ``enlightened`` part of the society against backwardness etc........The English language press, generally and subtely supported him........However, now even the most enlightened parts of the society: lawyers, media, private sector etc. are against him.....

He only has the military supporting him........And I can tell you for a fact, that there is a great amount of disgruntledness in the military against Musharraf for his actions in Waziristan.......this is something else I discovered last year......And the USA is pressuring him to, ``do more``.......

He is truly stuck........

Re: # 34

yes Jang -- the CJ is about to do Indira to Musharraf -- even without an election -- from Musharraf side the time tested delay tactice is in full swing to avert the collapse.

bulleya:

Yes, it seems that something is happening. But I do not know how things will evolve. Need more info from the ground. What is happening to interactors from Pakistan? manto says that internet access is down. Can something be done Romair?

nasah #: ...I am quite sure about the politicians being divided and opportunistic.....Not 100% sure about the judiciary at this time........This is the first time, their own CJ has actually taken on the military.....Previously, those who took on merely resigned......So now maybe the rest of the judges will get some backbone also......

``Even the perenial constitutional pimp of pompous ass coup makers -- Sharifuddin Pirzada, has expressed his inability to represent the government in the Supreme Judicial Council -- this time.``

...Yes this is actually more historic than anything else......If Sharifuddin Pirzada can refuse the govt`s. offer, then, really, anything can happen.........

Two other government lawyers have already refused to represent Musharraf government in SCJ reference case!

Even the perenial constitutional pimp of pompous ass coup makers -- Sharifuddin Pirzada, has expressed his inability to represent the government in the Supreme Judicial Council -- this time.

poor Musharraf -- being kicked by his own when he is down.

reminds me of indira gandhi and allahabad high-court verdict...the whole country was on strike..railways, trade-unions, RSS wallahs, JP Narain and his bihari students.

``So the judiciary is still divided and the politicians are still divided, which is why the Army still remains strong, as it is undivided......`` (Bulleya)

are u sure it is?

GT/jang #: ......I think the politicians are all being quite opportunistic......I suppose that is part and parcel of politics......They are waiting to see which way the ball bounces and the cookie crumbles.......You may have noticed that none of the major politicians of the govt. have openly supported Musharraf either.......

.......I think they are all waiting for the SJC decision.......If it is in favor of the CJ, then it will set in a process where the courts will, themselves, weaken Musharraf.....And the politicians (read PPP) can then put him under extreme pressure and get all the cases dropped against BB and take power......

........If the SJC rules in favor of Musharraf, then an agitation might occur, at which point I think various political parties will try to lead that agitation.......That is when MMA will start burning KFCs.......

........The MQM and the ruling PML(Q) will quitely roll over as they see the tide turning and join whomever they think will be in power.......The day Musharraf is weakened, the MQM will, en masse, dump him.......And the PML(Q) politicians will, one by one, apologize for their sins, and try to join some other party.......

......The main party is really the PPP.......MMA doesn`t have a strong enough base in the country......Whichever way PPP rolls is the way the politics will role.........One would have thought that it would be on the forefront of this event, as it is the biggest victim, historically, of Army rule........However, I think the personal interest of its leader (Benazir) is taking precedence over its workers` direction........Had the PPP been led by Aitezaz Ahsan (a PPP minister and lawyer of the CJ), I think it would agitating at the moment........Keep in mind, the Musharraf govt. really went after various PPP leaders. They were kept in jail, without trials for years........One of its top leader was only recently released, without trial, after five years!!....I am quite sure they would all want to go after Musharraf........

Further to: # 26

There are two more issues because of which religious political parties have absolutely lost their face. Now every Pakistani understands that they are just another facade of the corrupt ruling class that oppresses Pakistan:

1. They ``legitimized`` this dictator by signing onto his Constitutional Ammendements. (Even though this legitimization has no value in the eyes of people of Pakistan and/or constitutionally, but just another act of treason). So if Mushrraf is the one who raped the constitution; the political molvis were the one who aided him in this gang rape.

2. On the issues of Hadud laws their stance and behavior was shameful. If they cannot stop dictator from imposing unIslamic laws on this nation and still remain a part of his political establishment then why do we need them. They have disqualified themselves by clearly defying the edict of Holy Prophet (pbuh); they are no more worthy of our leadership.

The third issue is becoming more and more obvious as the time passes by with the CJ debacle. It is becoming evident that they (the sarkari molvis) are trying to divert pressure from the dictator by weaseling out at this critical juncture,

Three strikes and you are out.

Re: # 29

django:

I am not very sure this time. It would be nice if Manto, Raw Dust, masadi etc. send more real time info. as well as their perceptions.

i suspect that MMA protests are token too..only the leaders were ``arrested`` peacefullyl. if it were a real protest, karachi, lahore peshawar would be shut-down and at least 4 KFCs would be torched. considering now even a dunkin-donut express counter is vandalized, its a staged protest.

Re: # 24

manto:

Are the common people involved, or is it just the upper classes? If it is just the latter, then there is a large possibility that the outcome would be worse than the status-quo. Also a small suggestion: According to bulleya it seems that the MMA is involved. Since the MMA is also an elitist party you guys seriously need to think about the outcome. Religion is OK, the MMA is not.

All the best .... keep your cool ... and do not get over excited.

It is interesting to notice that the political parties still remain divided.........

The party with the most street power in Pakistan is MQM.....Altaf Hussein, its head in exile, can shut down Karachi with one gesture....MQM has had some violent conflicts with the Army......Yet it joined the Army, in this govt........In return it recieved the governorship in Sind......So far the MQM has not joined this event....

.....The largest political party in Pakistan is PML.....However, it is now divided into seven or eight pieces.....This, now, makes the PPP the largest political party, which is only divided into three pieces......So far, PPP has not done much....This is despite the fact that every military govt. goes after the PPP the most......And PPP`s workers and leaders spend the most time in jail........PPP is sitting on the fence in this event, waiting to see whether it should do a deal with the govt. or whether it should protest.....

.....Most of the PML is already with the govt.....The remaining part (around 15-20% of the original party) is protesting.....

....The maulvi brigade is protesting.........Its the only party whose whole top leadership is now under arrest........If this blows up into a more major event, it will be the MMA which will lead everything, because PPP is sitting on the fence.......Interestingly, MMA actually is in a coalition govt. with Musharraf in Baluchistan - the province of the CJ!

......Imran Khan`s PTI is participating, however, they have little street power.......

.......All the other smaller parties are participating, however, they have little street power also.......

So with the PML, PPP and MQM out, things are going to fall in the MMA court.....And I have a feeling, if this turns into a political struggle, MMA will be the biggest beneficiary......In a sense, they deserve it, because, unlike other parties, they are not sitting on the fence......

So the judiciary is still divided and the politicians are still divided, which is why the Army still remains strong, as it is undivided......