Justice, Judiciary and Journalist

Dear Pakis,

Nobody in his/her right mind would advocate dictatorship - especially a military one. Everyone wants democracy, but there is no quick fix, no cheap freedom, and no instant cure for insanity. Pakistan has NEVER experienced a sustained even limited democracy. Jinnah was basically a universally-accepted autocrat, a one-man show, who needed no ratification of his whimsical ideas. Muslims have an uncanny habit of elevating even the most mediocre of their leaders to positions approaching divinity.

Democracy means much more than mob rule. Majority rule does not mean that a vote can decide the life or death of any hated minorities, confiscation of their wealth, or designation of their community as non-Muslim, naPaak, or discrimination against them in employment, business, or education. There must be concrete, sacred, and inalienable rights assured to ALL citizens - such as in the Bill of Rights. There must be protection for smaller states/provinces, otherwise Delaware would have never joined the United States.

Pakistan has had only two orderly, legal, and fair transitions of power. The first was in the `50s when the Bengali-dominated Awami League and Suharwardy beat the incumbent Muslim League. The second was when an Urdu-speaking Mohajir COS, Mirza Aslam Beg, transferred power to a victorious Benazir Bhutto in 1989. Forget the fact that Gen Aslam Beg was a chutiya when it came to knowledge of military matters - he was the fool who considered helping the Bosnians achieve military success as a futile effort and bound for failure. But he did supervise fair elections and did not grab power for himself - unlike Ayub, Yahya, Zia, and Mushy.

The question to ask is what replaces Mushy in the future? Another two rounds of twiddle dee and twiddle dum will not do. The military must be there ONLY for the defense of the country against FOREIGN enemas - something it has NEVER succeeded in doing effectively. The military should not become a tool of a single province or ethnicity to lord over the rest of the country. The provinces should enjoy full local power - including taxation, police, education, and local legislation. The days of the One Unit and Basic Democracy crap are over. Will Pakis rise to the challenge or are we to expect more of the same? Throwing bricks, burning tires, and smashing windows are not the solution.

Even the rats are abandoning the sinking ship

Altaf threatens to review ties with government

By Azfar-ul-Ashfaque

KARACHI, March 18: Muttahida Qaumi Movement leader Altaf Hussain warned on Sunday that his party will review its relationship with the government if the use of ‘state violence’ was not stopped immediately.

“We did not support the government’s action of imposing restriction on the press or its acts of violence against peaceful lawyers. MQM is closely monitoring the current situation and demands that the president and the prime minister should stop the use of state power, otherwise the MQM will be absolutely free to exercise all its options in the near future,” Mr Hussain said. He did not elaborate.

He was addressing his party’s activists and supporters gathered here to celebrate the 23rd Foundation Day of the MQM.

He said that the MQM had always raised its voice against injustice and it would continue to do so without any fear of ‘consequences’.

He spoke at length about the current internal political situation, the threats being faced by the country, situation in tribal areas and in Balochistan and the current judicial crisis.

With regard to the presidential reference against Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, he clarified that neither the MQM had been taken into confidence nor was it consulted on the matter.

Criticising the government for not consulting the MQM before or after filing of the reference, he said that it was high time to decide whether it wanted to continue working with the MQM, which always supported the government even in difficult times, or it wanted pseudo-friends.

However, he maintained that it was a constitutional and legal matter and all Pakistanis should leave the matter to the Supreme Judicial Council to reach a decision in accordance with the Constitution and law. “This matter should not be used for scoring political points,” he added.

He appealed opposition leaders to lodge their protest in a peaceful manner keeping in view the critical situation the country was facing.

He said MQM believed in freedom of expression and it was concerned over various government restrictions on the media. He condemned the police action on the Islamabad office of Geo News and recent incidents of police violence against protesting lawyers. The MQM leader observed that the government had mishandled the situation in Balochistan and tribal areas and the recent protests of lawyers.

He said that President Gen Pervez Musharraf himself had admitted that some conspiracy was being hatched against him. He urged the president to unmask the conspirators and to take action against them in accordance with the Constitution and the law.

He said that Pakistan’s relations with its neighbouring countries, Iran, Afghanistan and India, were not normal.

He said that the MQM always urged the government to resolve the issue of Balochistan and tribal areas through dialogue, but unfortunately the rulers did not pay heed. He said that the situation in Balochistan was not satisfactory.

He called upon the president, the prime minister and the policy-makers to give complete provincial autonomy and stop interference by the federation into the affairs of the provinces for the sake of solidarity and integrity of Pakistan.

“People of former East Pakistan wanted their rights and they gave them the country. I request the authorities not to adopt similar practices, lest instead of giving provincial autonomy you give them countries,” he said.

He prayed to the Almighty to grant wisdom to the rulers to take decision in national interests.

He asked the government to immediately release all lawyers, political leaders and workers.

Mr Hussain congratulated MQM workers and supporters on the 23rd Foundation Day.

A large number of MQM workers and supporters attended the gathering. The address of Mr Hussain was relayed simultaneously in 20 cities of Pakistan, where the party’s foundation day was celebrated.

Courtesy, Dawn - March 19, 2007 Monday Safar 29, 1428

http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?no=350562&rel_no=1

this site has published a shocking picture, of the state of affairs in the god forsaken country of pakistan.

Also ....

It is thought that two very important cases were to be seen in the supreme court in the coming months

The case inquiring the dual nationality of the Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and his eligibility to be Prime Minister.
The case to whether or not the President Pervez Musharraf could run the election for the next Presidency term


Some usually outspoken ministers clearly detached themselves from the ongoing judicial crisis and became neutral; that`s not common in pakistans political history.

Dr. Sher Afghan, surgeon turned constitutional expert and minister for parliamentary affairs daringly choose to clarify his position that he is not a party and he has respect for the judiciary.

Naeem Bokhari mentioned in his controversial open letter that Justice Chaudhry changed the verbally announced decision in a case of Dr. Sher Afghan.

Ruling party president Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain preferred to go abroad instead of staying here to face the music at the climax of the judicial crisis. After landing at JFK airport New York he told reporters that the present judicial crisis is a power tussle between the judiciary and the army. ``I have no role in this big game so I came here to take rest and medication.``

Later on his statement was contradicted but the facts are facts that are never changed.


Unexpectedly, the sacked minister of information, now railway minister, Sheikh Rashid also criticized the insulting behavior of officials towards the chief justice of Pakistan.

``I am a political worker, I know how badly affected the people of my constituency are by this sad incident, the manhandling of Justice Chaudhry by police and undercover secret agents, shame on us,`` he said while he was hurriedly addressing a press conference Wednesday evening.

Rashid claimed that the top judge tried to paralyze the government by summoning high profile officials to the court. He added that Chaudry`s activism for the common people proved fatal, but that all this could not justify what the government did to him and his family.

He said that detention of the entire family of chief justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry was unfair.

``I can`t understand the logic behind it. Why are school-going innocent children not allowed to attend classes? How could any sane person think to deprive even a common man from medicine or a doctor? Unfortunately all this has happened to the chief justice of Pakistan, the guarantor to provide justice to every Pakistani,`` he said.

``What a shameful scene. The whole world has seen the chief justice knocking on the closed door of his own court for justice, and he had to wait for 15 minutes in the din.``

Geo and ARY one world, the premier satellite channels, immediately telecast the sensitive portions of the speech, but then the shadows became active and the sensitive parts of his press conference were censored in the print media.

Zeena #5 from UP {``PPP and Nawaz league are together now against Mushy...Any idea why? ``

Zeena,
Very good question. These former ``democratically-elected`` ex-PMs now see a good chance to continue with their taking turns while looting Pakistan with both hands and both feet. They loot with their hands and then run with their feet to London, Switzerland, Abba Dabba Doobuy, and Soodi Rabia.

When Nawaz Besharif left in 1999, Pakistan`s economy was a mess. Foreign exchange was dried up. Capital investment was disappearing. Corruption was rampant. The Paki rupee was in free fall. Mushy came in - kicked out the thugs, reduced corruption, stabilized the Paki Rupee, encouraged investment and capital expenditure. and revived the economy.

Now these thieves see another opportunity to get rich at the expense of the poor hard-working Pakis - Punjabi and Sindhi subsitence farmers, exploited Baluchis, opium-growing Pathans, and enterprising Mohajirs.

They have their ``liberal`` PPP goondas and hooligans, like PPP lawyers, coming out in the streets to conduct mayhem, violence, and arson. Soon, the bearded brigade will join them to force Mushy into retirement and Pakistan into a civil war. May Allah strike these traitors dead in their aim to destroy what`s left of Pakistan.

Sun Tani and Jeemax,
I have been following your wet dreams about a united Poonzab and honestly, I find myself in total agreement with you. The forced departure of the noble Sikhs from West Punjab created a vacuum that has resulted in this unfortunate half century of hooliganism, PPP misbehavior, corruption, and deadly violence. The brave Sikhs had a history of administration and culture and provided a rule of law and order under the glorious Sikha Shahi based in Lahore.

Having said that, I noticed several problems and being land-locked would be the least of your miseries. I have been following the interesting results of the world cup cricket matches in Maghribi (Pachim) Hindustan. :) Here are some observations:

Physique was not a factor in the outcome of the two significant matches - The team with the better physique won in the Ireland/Pakistan match, but the team with the better physique was defeated in the Bangladesh/India contest.

Height was not a factor - the taller Irish beat the shorter Pakis, but the shorter Bengalis beat the taller Injuns.

Skin color was also not a factor - the white-skinned Irish beat the dark Pakis, but the dark-skinned Bengalis whipped the lighter-skinned Injuns.

Islam was definitely not a factor - the Catholic Irish beat the crap out of the Muslim Pakis (including a recycled apostate), but the entirely Muslim Bengalis humiliated the mostly Hindu Injuns (there was only one Muslim on the losing Injun side).

The number of Punjoo players on each team was a definite factor - The victorious Irish included no Punjus, the losing Pakis were mostly PPP (Paki Punju Paindoos). The successful Bengalis included no Punjus, but the defeated Injuns had a few Punjus. The side with the most Punjus performed the poorest of all four.

These are the facts - now do you really want a united Punjab and field a team consisting of ALL Punjus? :)

Re: # 15
Romair Sir you have elaborated all crimes of cj which angered some people.
Establishment will like to punish CJ as PUNITIVE measures.
I appreciate your elaboration.

``I do not think that Pakistani muslims are agitating to restore CJ or anyone, or for establishing democracy or for ending corruption.....these all are not the basis of political support in Pakistan, after all Pakistanis distributed sweets when Musharaff staged the coup and opposed kargil withdrawl........Pakistanis loved every bit of Musharaff`s growl and threat at India and his commondo style behaviour ..............It appears that Pakistanis are angry with Musharaff because of his u turn after 9/11................``

Pakistani want the supremacy of law in their country, not the supremacy of army. It is as simple as that, nothing to do with 9/11. Musharraf has never obeyed the law, infact laws are crafted for him e.g. ammendment to allow him to hold two offices.

Revolt is brewing in the ranks of Pak army, 6 corps commanders have expressed discontent with the Pervez Musharraf. It is also reported that Tariq Aziz orchestrated the attack on Geo news:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/mar/17pakcj.htm

I do not think that Pakistani muslims are agitating to restore CJ or anyone, or for establishing democracy or for ending corruption.....these all are not the basis of political support in Pakistan, after all Pakistanis distributed sweets when Musharaff staged the coup and opposed kargil withdrawl........Pakistanis loved every bit of Musharaff`s growl and threat at India and his commondo style behaviour ..............It appears that Pakistanis are angry with Musharaff because of his u turn after 9/11................

WhEN BUDDHA BECAME HITLER IN INDIAN BENGAL


The Gestapo of modern day – the communist controlled cops of West Bengal butchered innocent farmers of Nandigarm. The killings were unprovoked. It was planned massacre the same way Chinese kill their own farmers. The style was that of fascist. Guess who led all that – the contemporary Buddha of India!

What happened in Nadigram requires United Nations intervention. Government of India and Indian Army will not stop the Gestapo of West Bengal. The cops in West Bengal on the order from Communists to protect oligarchs of India did the same all across the state. They killed and injured countless innocent farmers who want their land back that was snatched illegally from them. Tata wants to build $2250 car in Singur for the Asian markets! The communists want a Special Economic Zones (SEZs) in Nandigram for more tax revenues from export to the West. Tata and communists joined hands to illegally steal lands from the poor farmers. Boeing Corporation of America was thrilled to have Tata fly the F18!

The massacre was typical the way the fascists controlled the crowd and opposition in Hitler’s Germany. Buddhadev Bhattacharya, the communist Chief Minister of West Bengal (known as Buddha of modern day!) is still indifferent about the cold-blooded murder of the farmers in West Bengal. Tata says he wants his cars fast from Singur so that he can buy another ‘Corus’ from Europe. The communists want money from SEZ in Nadigram - they care nothing for the farmers.

So what there is C.J ii Pak or U.S. Attorney BOTH can be fired


White House backtracks in row over U.S. attorneys
POSTED: 12:07 p.m. EDT, March 12, 2007
Story Highlights• Bill would end attorney general`s power to appoint prosecutors minus Senate OK
• Fired U.S. attorneys allege pressure from Justice Department, lawmakers
• Alberto Gonzales agrees to let aides testify about dismissals without subpoenas
• Reversal abrupt for administration known for standing firm despite opposition
Adjust font size:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Slapped even by GOP allies, the Bush administration is beating an abrupt retreat on eight federal prosecutors it fired and then publicly pilloried.

Just hours after Attorney General Alberto Gonzales dismissed the hubbub as an ``overblown personnel matter,`` a Republican senator Thursday mused that Gonzales might soon suffer the same fate as the canned U.S. attorneys.

A short time later, Gonzales and his security detail shuttled to the Capitol for a private meeting on Democratic turf, bearing two offerings:


President Bush would not stand in the way of a Democratic-sponsored bill that would cancel the attorney general`s power to appoint federal prosecutors without Senate confirmation. Gonzales` Justice Department previously had dismissed the legislation as unreasonable.


There would be no need for subpoenas to compel testimony by five of Gonzales` aides involved in the firings, as the Democrats had threatened. Cloistered in the stately hideaway of Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Pat Leahy, D-Vermont, the attorney general assured those present that he would permit the aides to tell their stories.

It was a striking reversal for an administration noted for standing its ground even in the face of overwhelming opposition.

Gone were the department`s biting assertions that the prosecutors were a bunch of ``disgruntled employees grandstanding before Congress.``

And the department no longer tried to shrug off the uproar as ``an overblown personnel matter,`` as Gonzales had written in an opinion piece published Thursday in USA Today.

Agency officials also ceased describing majority Democrats as lawmakers who would ``would rather play politics`` than deal with facts.

The shift from offense to silence was so abrupt that one of Bush`s chief advisers who was speaking out of town apparently missed the memo.

``My view is this is unfortunately a very big attempt by some in the Congress to make a political stink about it,`` presidential adviser Karl Rove said Thursday during a speech at the University of Arkansas Clinton School of Public Service.

Back in Washington, a consensus was emerging among senators of both parties, and Gonzales himself, that the firings had been botched chiefly because the prosecutors had not been told the reasons for their dismissals.

The matter snowballed -- some of those fired complained publicly, and a senior Justice Department official warned one that further complaints in the press would force the agency to defend itself, according to an e-mail made public this week.

On Tuesday, during an eight-hour marathon of congressional hearings, the Justice Department followed through. William Moschella, principal associate deputy attorney general, publicly enumerated the reasons each prosecutor was fired, one by one.

Flash forward two days, to Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, reading Gonzales` USA Today column into the record. He paused.

``One day there will be a new attorney general, maybe sooner rather than later,`` he mused. ``But these [prosecutors] who were plastered across the newspapers all across the country, they will never recover their reputations.``

Two staunch White House allies, Sens. Jon Kyl of Arizona and Jeff Sessions of Alabama, lamented the damage to the prosecutors` resumes -- adding, however, that the uproar had been the result of poor execution rather than a political purge.

The prosecutors weren`t the only ones whose reputations suffered. One, New Mexico`s David Iglesias, said the dismissals followed calls from members of Congress -- Sen. Pete Domenici and Rep. Heather Wilson, New Mexico Republicans -- concerning sensitive political corruption investigations.

Still unclear is whether Gonzales will allow his aides to speak with the Senate panel in private or at a public hearing. The House Judiciary Committee on Thursday also demanded to speak with the officials.

They are: Michael Elston, Kyle Sampson, Monica Goodling, Bill Mercer and Mike Battle.

Sampson is Gonzales` chief of staff, Elston is staff chief to Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty and Mercer is associate attorney general. Goodling is Gonzales` senior counsel and White House liaison, and Battle is the departing director of the office that oversees the 93 U.S. attorneys.

For a country that has no fricking law, there sure are a lot of screaming, shouting, misbehaving lawyers in the Land of the Pure. Can anyone buy a black and white outfit and start to riot?

Reaction in Sindh - obviously there are far more important matters than misbehaving and terrorist lawyers. The treasonous liars are getting no sympathy other than in Poonzab.


SHIKARPUR: CM threatens to dissolve Sindh Assembly

By Our Correspondent

SHIKARPUR, March 15: Sindh Chief Minister Dr Arbab Ghulam Rahim has said that the agitation launched by the lawyers and the opposition on the issue of the action against the chief justice can be considered as a conspiracy against national interests

He warned that if the opposition did not change its attitude, he had the right to dissolve the Sindh Assembly.

He was talking to journalists after prize distribution ceremony of Shikarpur Festival in Wazirabad on Thursday.

Dr Rahim said that the lawyers and the opposition leaders were trying to destroy peaceful atmosphere in the country and particularly in Sindh.

Answering a question about a statement made by Leader of the Opposition in Sindh Assembly, Nisar Ahmed Khuhro, the chief minister said that he wanted to serve the people well hence how could he (chief minister) hurl threats to the people. However, he said if Mr Khuhro was taking his very statement as a threat then ‘my threat to him is to avoid unfair attitude of creating confusion between the people and the government.”

Earlier Dr Rahim visited Shikarpur Festival, witnessed the horse and cattle show and sports festival organized by the district government.

District Nazim Mohammad Arif Mahar presented a shield, an Ajrak and a Sindhi cap to the chief minister.

The chief minister gave away shields to Mr Mahar, DCO Khwaja Shafiq Ahmed, festival coordinator Zahid Memon, convenor Dr Abdullah Sethar and deputy convener Abdul Karim Sehto.

Speaking on the occasion, the chief minister said that district governments would be encouraged to hold cultural festivals and horse and cattle shows throughout the province.

Courtesy - Dawn, March 16, 2007 Friday Safar 26, 1428 (T)

Now it`s all becoming clear. The Paki Mahapunju ex-PM is calling the shots via remote control and the PPPs are all responding:

Nawaz backs protests

By Our Special Correspondent

LONDON, March 15: Former prime minister Nawaz Sharif has appealed to the nation to participate in protests being held across Pakistan on Friday. In a statement issued here on Thursday, the PML-N chief said that the time had come for the people to ensure that those who dared to subjugate the judiciary were held accountable.

Mr Sharif said that after destroying the constitution and subjugating parliament, Gen Musharraf had now launched an attack on the institution responsible for providing justice to the people.

He said that the action against the chief justice had proven that the general was capable of going to any length in violating the tenets of law, civilised norms and morality to safeguard his “unconstitutional, illegal, undemocratic and immoral rule”.

The PML-N leader appealed to the youth, intellectuals, traders, labourers, students, elders and other sections of society to join lawyers in their protest to rid the country of those who had put the very existence of the country at risk.

Mr Sharif pledged to stand shoulder to shoulder with the people in this struggle and to render every sacrifice required.

Courtesy - Dawn March 16, 2007 Friday Safar 26, 1428

#various Nasah

Nasah sahib, you have seen this pattern too often to fall for it all over again.

At least your mind will not fall for it...as far as the heart is concerned...

Woh to dil ka maamla hai! Pointless to address.

The reality is that it is the same sequence every time, somebody pretends to become the savior of the land, to solve all its ills by ousting whoever is the current ruler. They never do anything real even if they can grab power - mian Mushy did the same routine in his own time.

Mushy is faulty in some ways - especially in his belief that any genuine opposition must be suppressed and he will brook no challenge to his own rule while mouthing ``real`` democracy. Other than that, he has few serious faults - he certainly could have been much worse.

Getting rid of the Mushy will not rescue Pakistan - Mushy is more a symptom of the malaise - not its cause.

Without trivializing individual sacrifices (no, mouthing stuff on chowk is not to be considered a sacrifice - but getting beaten up with sticks indeed is) let`s get serious.

A country`s rescue comes from working on the ground and building upwards - not from street rabble-rousing by a bunch of penguin-like-dressees!

GaaoN ma aag lagat he, aur susrey punjaibi buRhyaaN kahat hen ke koi humrey kanghan nahin dekhat he.

Today, the swarthy swarms of PPPs are marching, screaming, shouting, and throwing bricks against Mushy. Tomorrow these qismat ke maray haramzaaday will be marching, screaming, shouting, and throwing bricks at Ameer-ul-Momineen Hajrat Fajlur Rehman against having only two weeks to grow a foot long beard. :)

Zeemax,

You are right. I am getting tired of having to type Paki Punju Paindoo over and over again. In the future I will use the acronym of PPP - regardless of the fact that it refers to another set of mindless, violent, and cruel thugs who have a record of looting our beloved land.

BTW, have you heard from your long-lost PPP friend, Urstruly? He was caught red-handed spreading malicious lies about the First Lady of Pakistan

On a personal note, thanks for asking about me. My family and I are fine - just concerned a bit over the upcomiing wholesale massacre looming over Karachi as the PPPs get all excited with unholy firewater.

Salim_Chauhan,

Are you ok? You seem to be under some sort of stress. Is it domestic? Or something else?

#41 by nasah

The son of a bi**h is lying. Shaukat Aziz is no more than his lapdog who doesn`t even go to piss without this b`tards permission.

Folks,
Nothing new here. It`s the age-old Paki Punju Paindoos vs the rest of Pakistan fight.

Paki Punjus vs Bengalis 1971
Paki Punjus vs Sindhis 1979
Paki Punjus vs Mohajirs 1990 - 1996
Paki Punjus vs Kashmiris - 1948- 2007
Paki Punjus vs Baluchi 1974, 2006
Paki Punjus vs Pathans 2005, 2006, ...

#40 by bulleya on March 16, 2007 10:29am PT


Sure beats a 9-5 job


The last time you said that was in the days after 9/11 when you were dying to quit your job and join the american attack on afghanistan....t-shirt with paki flag and all..how times change..now you`ve gone from the US to canickistan to pakiland....

GT Sahib,
Mushy is just a puppet and a facade for the Paki Punju Paindoo feudal.military establishment. MMA is waiting in the wings. Mohajirs are fed up with all of them. What the lawyers in black and white are doing is the sudden softening of the liberal cause. While Mohajirs and liberal Paki Punju Paindoos fight, the die-hard sworn TallyBan among the Wana Wana NWFP Lallas and Paki Punju Paindoos (like Urstruly, Atif2, and Ali1) will take over the land. Then, no one will be able to watch Shipa Shetty strut her stuff in the Land of the Pure. :)

Re: # 43

Chauhan sahib:

Our own manto is marching there in black and white ... his statement in BBC was far from stupid. But yes, one does hope that the protest is not hijacked by the MMA leadership. On the other hand if it is hijacked by the unwashed masses then great.

These foolish liars in black and white, who are marching up and down, throwing bricks, and giving stupid and illogical interviews to foreign news services (I am talking about Mr. Paracha :) ) are paving the path to their own destruction. They are accelerating the rise of the Paki Tally Ban and MMA. Then, one day we will see them shouting, marching, throwing bricks against having to grow a long beard in only two weeks.

Re: # 40

bulleya;

I meant ... can something be done about the internet access. In any case, if it is just the lawyers and the media then nothing much is going to come from it. Some patching up here and there and that will be about it. If the disgruntled army faction gets in or/and the MMA leadership gets in things may turn worse. But IF the unwashed masses get excited and brush aside leaders and simply air THEIR views then irrespective of whether Musharaf survives or not, only good can happen.

now listen to this latest from Musharraf -- he is backing down -- says Chaudry is still the CJ -- the coward now blames Shaukat Aziz for the firing.!!


ISLAMABAD: President Gen Pervez Musharraf has said the “manhandling” of suspended Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry by security personnel and police was an “unfortunate incident”.

The president said this at a meeting on Wednesday night at which all aspects of the judicial crisis following the chief justice’s suspension were reviewed, a federal minister told Online on condition of anonymity on Thursday.

The president expressed disappointment at the manhandling of the chief justice while he was being taken to the Supreme Court building on Tuesday, the sources said.

He said the incident had bought shame to Pakistan and that Justice Chaudhry must be treated with respect and honour, as he is still chief justice of Pakistan.

He added that he had not issued any directives to withdraw the chief justice’s privileges. He said there was no ban on meeting the chief justice.

Gen Musharraf said that he took the decision to file a reference against the chief justice on the advice of the prime minister and now it was up to the Supreme Judicial Council to decide the case.

The government would not interfere in this matter, he said, according to the sources.(Daily Times)


Uzre Gunah budtur uz Gunah....The `incident` has not brought shame on Pakistan -- Musharraf has brought shame on Pakistan. Iss sadgee peh kaun nu mur jai ai khoda...

yes Omair u may be right -- looks like the Pirzada did it -- his refusal to defend Musharraf pull the rug under Musharraf`s arrogance -- yet the deluded man thinks he is above the `incident`....!

GT#: ....I am in the final days of moving back to the Pakistan area......I didn`t realize my arrival would instigate such a ruckus :-).......Wish I was there, right now......One cannot miss such important historical events.......Sure beats a 9-5 job.......Due to this, I am spending quite a bit of time getting info from Pakistan......However, someone who is actually on the ground would know better........Perhaps Manto....

......What I do know is that I have never seen so much, across the society, support for any one person, i.e. CJ........every site one goes to, everyone one talks to is on his side due a combination of three issues, in which he is directly and indirectly involved:

- America should not be allowed to bomb and kill Pakistanis in Waziristan
- Govt. should not be allowed to pick up people, without a trial, regardless of USA`s GWOT
- CJ should be a figure of higher authority than the COAS

.....This is across the board, from maulvis to IT executives....Only the very pro-Western tiny elite is not supporting this.....Even expats are on the CJ side.......Though perhaps not the USA expats.....

One thing I must say, which I have been saying for the past six months, after spending six months in Pakistan doing research for a book, last year......I discovered that there were only two groups in Pakistan, who took on the govt., without fear: the media and the lawyers.......this conclusion has proven true.....

AndI also discovered that the civil judicial system in Pakistan still has some level of competence......And that people still have some respect for it.......More respect than they have for the police and other govt. depts........Kind of like the respect, they use to have for the military at one time......

I think Musharraf may well be able to ride this out, through a deal with certain politicians and help from USA......But he is permanently damaged........and I think beyond repair......Uptil this time, I think he viewed himself as a figure who was assisting the, ``enlightened`` part of the society against backwardness etc........The English language press, generally and subtely supported him........However, now even the most enlightened parts of the society: lawyers, media, private sector etc. are against him.....

He only has the military supporting him........And I can tell you for a fact, that there is a great amount of disgruntledness in the military against Musharraf for his actions in Waziristan.......this is something else I discovered last year......And the USA is pressuring him to, ``do more``.......

He is truly stuck........

Re: # 34

yes Jang -- the CJ is about to do Indira to Musharraf -- even without an election -- from Musharraf side the time tested delay tactice is in full swing to avert the collapse.

bulleya:

Yes, it seems that something is happening. But I do not know how things will evolve. Need more info from the ground. What is happening to interactors from Pakistan? manto says that internet access is down. Can something be done Romair?

nasah #: ...I am quite sure about the politicians being divided and opportunistic.....Not 100% sure about the judiciary at this time........This is the first time, their own CJ has actually taken on the military.....Previously, those who took on merely resigned......So now maybe the rest of the judges will get some backbone also......

``Even the perenial constitutional pimp of pompous ass coup makers -- Sharifuddin Pirzada, has expressed his inability to represent the government in the Supreme Judicial Council -- this time.``

...Yes this is actually more historic than anything else......If Sharifuddin Pirzada can refuse the govt`s. offer, then, really, anything can happen.........

Two other government lawyers have already refused to represent Musharraf government in SCJ reference case!

Even the perenial constitutional pimp of pompous ass coup makers -- Sharifuddin Pirzada, has expressed his inability to represent the government in the Supreme Judicial Council -- this time.

poor Musharraf -- being kicked by his own when he is down.

reminds me of indira gandhi and allahabad high-court verdict...the whole country was on strike..railways, trade-unions, RSS wallahs, JP Narain and his bihari students.

``So the judiciary is still divided and the politicians are still divided, which is why the Army still remains strong, as it is undivided......`` (Bulleya)

are u sure it is?

GT/jang #: ......I think the politicians are all being quite opportunistic......I suppose that is part and parcel of politics......They are waiting to see which way the ball bounces and the cookie crumbles.......You may have noticed that none of the major politicians of the govt. have openly supported Musharraf either.......

.......I think they are all waiting for the SJC decision.......If it is in favor of the CJ, then it will set in a process where the courts will, themselves, weaken Musharraf.....And the politicians (read PPP) can then put him under extreme pressure and get all the cases dropped against BB and take power......

........If the SJC rules in favor of Musharraf, then an agitation might occur, at which point I think various political parties will try to lead that agitation.......That is when MMA will start burning KFCs.......

........The MQM and the ruling PML(Q) will quitely roll over as they see the tide turning and join whomever they think will be in power.......The day Musharraf is weakened, the MQM will, en masse, dump him.......And the PML(Q) politicians will, one by one, apologize for their sins, and try to join some other party.......

......The main party is really the PPP.......MMA doesn`t have a strong enough base in the country......Whichever way PPP rolls is the way the politics will role.........One would have thought that it would be on the forefront of this event, as it is the biggest victim, historically, of Army rule........However, I think the personal interest of its leader (Benazir) is taking precedence over its workers` direction........Had the PPP been led by Aitezaz Ahsan (a PPP minister and lawyer of the CJ), I think it would agitating at the moment........Keep in mind, the Musharraf govt. really went after various PPP leaders. They were kept in jail, without trials for years........One of its top leader was only recently released, without trial, after five years!!....I am quite sure they would all want to go after Musharraf........

Further to: # 26

There are two more issues because of which religious political parties have absolutely lost their face. Now every Pakistani understands that they are just another facade of the corrupt ruling class that oppresses Pakistan:

1. They ``legitimized`` this dictator by signing onto his Constitutional Ammendements. (Even though this legitimization has no value in the eyes of people of Pakistan and/or constitutionally, but just another act of treason). So if Mushrraf is the one who raped the constitution; the political molvis were the one who aided him in this gang rape.

2. On the issues of Hadud laws their stance and behavior was shameful. If they cannot stop dictator from imposing unIslamic laws on this nation and still remain a part of his political establishment then why do we need them. They have disqualified themselves by clearly defying the edict of Holy Prophet (pbuh); they are no more worthy of our leadership.

The third issue is becoming more and more obvious as the time passes by with the CJ debacle. It is becoming evident that they (the sarkari molvis) are trying to divert pressure from the dictator by weaseling out at this critical juncture,

Three strikes and you are out.

Re: # 29

django:

I am not very sure this time. It would be nice if Manto, Raw Dust, masadi etc. send more real time info. as well as their perceptions.

i suspect that MMA protests are token too..only the leaders were ``arrested`` peacefullyl. if it were a real protest, karachi, lahore peshawar would be shut-down and at least 4 KFCs would be torched. considering now even a dunkin-donut express counter is vandalized, its a staged protest.

Re: # 24

manto:

Are the common people involved, or is it just the upper classes? If it is just the latter, then there is a large possibility that the outcome would be worse than the status-quo. Also a small suggestion: According to bulleya it seems that the MMA is involved. Since the MMA is also an elitist party you guys seriously need to think about the outcome. Religion is OK, the MMA is not.

All the best .... keep your cool ... and do not get over excited.

It is interesting to notice that the political parties still remain divided.........

The party with the most street power in Pakistan is MQM.....Altaf Hussein, its head in exile, can shut down Karachi with one gesture....MQM has had some violent conflicts with the Army......Yet it joined the Army, in this govt........In return it recieved the governorship in Sind......So far the MQM has not joined this event....

.....The largest political party in Pakistan is PML.....However, it is now divided into seven or eight pieces.....This, now, makes the PPP the largest political party, which is only divided into three pieces......So far, PPP has not done much....This is despite the fact that every military govt. goes after the PPP the most......And PPP`s workers and leaders spend the most time in jail........PPP is sitting on the fence in this event, waiting to see whether it should do a deal with the govt. or whether it should protest.....

.....Most of the PML is already with the govt.....The remaining part (around 15-20% of the original party) is protesting.....

....The maulvi brigade is protesting.........Its the only party whose whole top leadership is now under arrest........If this blows up into a more major event, it will be the MMA which will lead everything, because PPP is sitting on the fence.......Interestingly, MMA actually is in a coalition govt. with Musharraf in Baluchistan - the province of the CJ!

......Imran Khan`s PTI is participating, however, they have little street power.......

.......All the other smaller parties are participating, however, they have little street power also.......

So with the PML, PPP and MQM out, things are going to fall in the MMA court.....And I have a feeling, if this turns into a political struggle, MMA will be the biggest beneficiary......In a sense, they deserve it, because, unlike other parties, they are not sitting on the fence......

So the judiciary is still divided and the politicians are still divided, which is why the Army still remains strong, as it is undivided......

Re: # 18

I don`t see any such chance in near future as long as the core integrity of the Constitution of 1973 remains unchanged. The reason being that that the Constitution gurantees the Islamic nature of the governance; so the next item on a voters agenda becomes the wordly issues like economy, jobs, healthcare, less corruption, efficient government etc. In this regard, religious parties have neither an agenda nor an objective that is sale-able enough. More Islam would not solve economics problems of this nation, but a targeted agenda item might. So that is the core reason an ordinary voter sees religious parties nothing but an instrument of status quo.

However, there is no doubt that a very strong radical political element is emreging fast and gaining political power. This religious element does not belive that this system can be made any better by remaining with in the same system. Their slogan is ``change the system, not the faces``. Currently, this element has no united front and it is not represented by a political party - religious or otherwise - but its members assume the role of guides and preachers and prepare a certain mindset in the people so that when time comes, the change emerges at the grass root level.

The forces of darkness and opression has sensed this threat to themesleves and call this phenomenon the `talibanization of Pakistan`` and call themselves liberals, seculars, moderates, or progressives etc.. But the matter has become far serious than chosing a snazzy name. As the time passes by, the conflict is headed towards an all out civil war, becuase although this so called liberal group is tiny but they have had political and military power on their side since they inherited Pakistan from British.

in the Words of Justice (r) Fakhruddin G Ibrahim , Pakistan is again at a defining Moment in History.


The Issue is not CJ and COAS/Pres/CEO


its about the role ( Future as well as current ) of the organs and insitituions of Pakistan.
for times to come.

its outcome will decide, will Pakistan come out of the quaqmire, or will it keep sliding downhill.

The government tried to block the internet all over Pakistan... then our phones....

GEO`s offices were attacked by the government....

Spread the word... the regime may come crumbling down...

Pakistan zindabad.

Guys

Go and read my ilog.

Zeemax sahib,

(By all indications, Rana Bhagwan Das has been sent on forced leave and there`re doubts he will return anytime before the SJC gives its recommendations. )

I am sure you will approve that. You wouldn`t want a kaffir to be the CJ of ur country, would you?

Regards

#19 by mimazhar ,

Justice Rana Bhagwandas ... on leave till 23 March .. Rumors .. that he has been forcibly kept away.

By all indications, Rana Bhagwan Das has been sent on forced leave and there`re doubts he will return anytime before the SJC gives its recommendations. It has now emerged that CJ was first asked to resign by musharraf but he refused. Then he too was asked to go on long leave so an acting CJ could be appointed, but he refused that as well. Then he was placed under house arrest and an acting CJ appointed in his place anyway. It is extremely significant to note that NO reference had been filed against him at the time he was made `non-functional` (or even by the first SJC sesion on 13th March). So it was a completely illegal act and merely kidnapping of a sort.

Top lawyers of the country including Sharif u din pirzada and Khalid Anwar has refused to plead for the government in the Supreme Judicial Council. What the learned readers of chowk say about this?

It is because the CJ has no case to answer and the top lawyers all know that. There`re some interactors who are saying that let the SJC look into the charges, but they forget that the veracity of the charges is quite meaningless in this case. It is because of the following reasons:

(1) the SJC has no jurisdiction to hear ANY charges against anyone because it is illegally constituted. Only the senior-most serving judge can head it. Being on leave doesn`t matter.

(2) there is no provision to make a CJ as non-functional through an executive order even if there`re the most serious and blatant charges against him. He continues to be CJ while SJC enquires into the charges.

(3) an acting CJ cannot be appointed while there`s a sitting CJ unless he`s on leave from his duties or has been declared mentally or physically unsound.

It is for the above reasons of the Government astoundingly chosing to forcibly remove a CJ, place him under house-arrest, and look for charges and file them later that all the top lawyers know that the very grounds of the Government in removing him are indefensible, and the enquiry will probably not even come to arguing on the charges. Thereby their distancing themslelves from government`s case to save their reputations.

Rgds

This is what happens to pakis who get uppity...it`s funny cause the paki junta is getting it from all sides...mushy sends his goons to pick them up..and then there`s US forces bombing/picking up pakis who show a jihadi streak...

i`m sure pakis are enjoying this new found strategic depth...

Without a trace

They vanish quietly and quickly. Some are dragged from their beds in front of their terrified families. Others are hustled off the streets into a waiting van, or yanked from a bus at a lonely desert junction. A windowless world of sweat and fear awaits. In dark cells, nameless men bark questions. The men brandish rubber whips, clenched fists, whirring electric drills, pictures of Osama bin Laden. The ordeal can last weeks, months or years.

These are Pakistan`s disappeared - men and women who have been abducted, imprisoned and in some cases tortured by the country`s all-powerful intelligence agencies. The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan has counted 400 cases since 2002; it estimates hundreds more people may have been snatched. The phenomenon started with the great sweeps for al-Qaida suspects after September 11, but has dramatically increased in recent years, and now those who disappear include homegrown ``enemies of the state`` - poets, doctors, housewives and nuclear scientists, accused of terrorism, treason and murder. Guilty or innocent, it`s hard to know, because not one has appeared before a court.

An angry Pakistani public wants to know why. The disappearances are increasingly perceived as Pakistan`s Guantánamo Bay - a malignant outgrowth of the ``war on terror``. This week, the issue moved centre stage with the showdown between President Pervez Musharraf and Pakistan`s chief justice, Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. Many believe the judge is being victimised for championing the cases of the disappeared. ``These are Gestapo tactics,`` says Iqbal Haider, a former minister. ``The more we protest, the more innocent people are being hurt. And what frightening stories they tell.``

For Abid Zaidi it started with a phone call one afternoon last April. The softly spoken 26-year-old was at work at Karachi University`s department of zoology in a cavernous room of stuffed animals, sagging skeletons and yellowing name tags. The voice on the phone instructed him to report to Sadder police station in the city centre. There, a handful of men were waiting for him: he believes they belonged to Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), the army`s powerful spy agency. They clapped cuffs on his wrists, wrapped a band around his eyes and drove him to a cell. Then, he says, the torture started.

The men beat him, he says, with a chain, until he collapsed. He was brought to a military hospital; there doctors brushed off his pleas for help. Then he was flown to another detention centre, where he was shown graphic images of torture. ``People`s skin was being removed with knives and blades and they were being drilled,`` he says. ``It was really terrible.`` Then they hung him upside down from a butcher`s hook, his face dipping into a pool of sewage water.

The interrogators wanted Zaidi to admit his supposed part in the Nishtar Park bombings. In early April, a suicide bomber had killed 50 people at a Sunni religious gathering in central Karachi. The officials accused Zaidi, a prominent young Shia, of orchestrating the massacre. Zaidi tried to explain he was more interested in zoology than zealotry. They did not believe him.

In July, an official told him he had been sentenced to hang. Zaidi wrote a will. ``I felt at peace because I knew God was with me,`` he says. But it was a ruse. At 4am on the morning of the ``execution``, having refused to admit his guilt, a dramatic reprieve was announced. Shortly afterwards, he underwent a lie detector test and on August 18 he was flown to Karachi. The blindfold was lifted. Zaidi was driven through the city. The car stopped, a man handed him 200 rupees (£1.80) and pushed the car door open. ``He said, `Don`t open your eyes,``` says Zaidi. When the engine noise had receded, he found himself standing at a bus stop near Karachi University. He got down on his knees and prayed. Then he phoned his brother to take him home.

Zaidi`s account cannot be verified because, officially speaking, he was never in government custody. However a senior police officer familiar with the case describes it as a major embarrassment. ``That boy was picked up by a young officer,`` says the official, who asks not to be named. ``[The police] knew it was the wrong guy. But they refused to listen.``

The ISI is the most powerful arm of Pakistan`s intelligence establishment, commonly referred to as ``the agencies``. Founded by a British army officer in 1948 and headquartered at an anonymous concrete block in Islamabad, the ISI is famed and feared in equal part. Its influence soared during the 1980s, when it smuggled vast amounts of American-funded weapons to mujahideen guerrillas fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. More recently, it has organised guerrilla groups fighting Indian troops in Indian-controlled Kashmir. The other major agencies in Pakistan are Military Intelligence and the civilian Intelligence Bureau, and all three of these major agencies have variously been accused of rigging elections, extra-judicial assassinations and other dirty tricks.

Justice Rana Bhagwandas is the most senior judge after Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. He is on leave till 23 March and is in India. He is in contact with his family but not appearing on media. Rumors are there that he has been forcibly kept away. Top lawyers of the country including Sharif u din pirzada and Khalid Anwar has refused to plead for the government in the Supreme Judicial Council. What the learned readers of chowk say about this?

A serious question for Urstruly.

Sir, do you ever foresee a future when religious parties can be elected in Pakistan - in a free and fair election?!

Re: # 13 Abbas jeffery: Read todays`s Dailytimes. The President General says that he will abide by the decision taken by the Supreme Judicial Council (SJC)! This is what he said:

---

See text below

---

Daily Times- Lahore March 16, 2007

See: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 03 16 story_16-3-2007_pg1_2

Govt will accept SJC verdict: Musharraf

GUJRANWALA: President Pervez Musharraf said on Thursday that he would accept the Supreme Judicial Council (SJC)’s verdict on the reference filed against Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry. “This is a constitutional and judicial matter. The decision will be constitutional and be taken by the judiciary itself ... whatever decision it (SJC) takes will be acceptable to me,” Gen Musharraf said in an address to a big public meeting here. He said he believed the SJC would “deliver justice”, but the opposition was politicising the issue through the lawyers’ community. He rejected the notion that lawyers were not with the government, saying that a several lawyers were at the public meeting. The protests by lawyers in front on the Supreme Court building in Islamabad and in Lahore included only a small proportion of lawyers, who were there for “political purposes”. He said he could not say more, since the matter was sub-judice, but added: “Once the decision is taken by the SJC, I will address the nation on TV and take them into confidence on the issue.” END

Now arn`you feeling better?
Now have a cup of good masala Chai and go to bed, Yar. The darkness will be over soon!

Kamath

Dear interactors,

Relax, yaaran! There are only two possibilities:

(1) The ninety-nine percent likelihood: Mushy will weather this one out because

(a) he is smart and quick on his feet,
(b) nobody is very smart (or better) among those who wish to get rid of him,
(c) the US is comfortable with him.

(2) The one percent likelihood: Somebody else from the khakis replaces him. No big deal – just set your clocks back to 1999 – rewind and start the replay!

I feel depressed and I am not even a Pakistani!

:(

interesting write-up on the cj by fridaytimes.......when i was in pakistan recently, i heard something interesting a bout this cj.........the police was extremely scared of him......he used to call senior police officers into court and tear them apart.......they were afraid of entering his court.........

``Mr Chaudhry, unlike his not-so-illustrious predecessors, has been stepping on the toes of the establishment for many months now. He shot down the New Murree scheme and Basant so beloved of the Punjab chief minister. He overruled the privatization of the Pakistan Steel Mills so beloved of the prime minister. He dragged senior police officers and bureaucrats to Islamabad and castigated them for spurning the rights of the poor and exploited. He stopped avaricious property sharks and conniving officials from turning public parks into golf courses or commercial centers for the rich. He ticked off factory owners for tearing up the environment laws of the country. He stopped sham educationists from setting up sub-standard medical universities. He took “suo moto” notice of thousands of everyday social and economic injustices against the downtrodden. But his worst crime was his insistence on enforcing the writ of habeas corpus in favour of hundreds of persons who had been abducted by the secret agencies of the military and confined without due process of law. Indeed, under his stewardship, the supreme court veritably became a custodian of human and fundamental rights as enshrined in the constitution. This was anathema to the establishment which has got used to its unaccountable and domineering status. But that is not the only reason why he had to go.``

My message to President of Pakistan through his website

Subject: Chief Justice
The one reading this message:

If you have the slightest of courage and an iota of shame, kindly forward my message to the people concerned.

I bet, I challenge you to find me a single Pakistani - beyond the filth Pervez Musharraf has gathered around him of course – who is not spitting and cursing the top command of Pak Fauj.

To be very honest, we have come to realize that Pervez Musharraf personally is very much involved in the ongoing loot of public money. He himself takes a part of the plunder [maal-e-ghanimat in military jargon].

The shameful sale of Pakistan Steel Mills is proof of my claim. Shaukat Aziz was previously money laundering for Zardari and Co. Today he collects “batha” for Pervez Musharraf.

The PSM robbery (and all other dubios deals going on) was definitely not possible without personal approval of Musharraf. Every primary school student understands very well what is going on.

Not a single institution is left in the country that has not been crushed under the filth of GHQ.

I swear to God that I have never felt this much repulsion for anything what I am doing right now for you people.

Take my words for it, there will be no one to shed tears when people will be digging you out from your pitholes and chasing you like mad dogs.

Re: # 11

Thanks for your advice, however, the issue is not limited to CJ only and by standing up and raising once voice does not necessarily means taking to streets. our concern should be related to issues not a person or a group. I do agree with you that we should let the justice prevail. However, we know for a fact our smart leader has made number of foolish mistakes and also have no interest in supremacy of justice, human rights and values. If our current leadership had the will and even the desire we should have seen some changes to our social, political and economic condition. We have seen time and time again the institution which is represented by our smart leader has been instrumental in dismantling of our civil institutions.

i somehow suspect there must be some sexual impropriety type allegations..that is why its kept so hush-hush...or the CJ would have leaked it.

Re: # 10
AbbasJeffery Yar:

Before you get possessed by emotions and take to street, why don`t you wait for the verdict - outcome of the trial? Ther may be indeed real evidence of corruption and micconduct of the judge. Why not wait and see if other judges examine the case through legal and orderly process or become simply collaborators and uphold law of necessity? Afterall you can not condemn all judges.

General President Musharaff is supposed to be the smartest among all military rulers of Pakistan. Do you think he would make a fool of himself when times are running rough nowadays in Pakistan?



Corruption in judiciary. lawyers and miscarriage of justice etc. is nothing new in every society. So wait wait!

Kamath

Washington

These events should not have come as a surprise to our nation as they the same people who illegal removed a democratically elected government and these acts were given legitimacy by the same institution which is under attack. We as nation have allowed these military goons to run our lives, systemically dismantle the civil institution’s. As a nation specially the middle class (whatever is left) allow this to happen for such a longtime. They have been instrumental and successful in creating the nationalist organization, the religious fundamentalist, and so called political elite’s and constitution experts who serve as there agents. I wish and hope that we as nation wake up and rise to occasion to stand for our rights, safe guard our institution which makes nations and society civil. I believe the time has come and we are a crossroad to make a decision to weather we continue to allow these goon’s to run us or forever change the course of our nation and country and join the league of civil nations.

jang #1: ``i just dont get it. there are allegations against the cj, and legal method is to refer the matter to his peers. this is one legal thing done by the gormint ...``

......these allegations have been around for a while......why not pass them on earlier.....why now?.....obviously it is politically motivated, which is clear to the public.....in addition, what are the allegations?.......they have not been disclosed.......of the ones that are being discussed, the only one that has any feet is that his son was transferred into the police, though a side door......granted a crime in places like the usa......but in pakistan, a sifarish for a son is standard procedure.......every single person does it.......if this is the only thing one can find against such a senior govt. figure, it actually indicates that the guy was a pretty honest man!.......

...in addition, it is illegal to suspend a chief justice and put him in house arrest....the constitution allows raising a case against him, but not suspending or jailing him....much like when impeachment against a president is started, he remains the president, untill actually impeached........

``there were many other illegal ones but there was not this much hue and cry (on the chowk). anyhoo..``

......so far the victims of these illegalities had generally been politicians.....people don`t have sympathy for politicians in pakistan....so when nawaz sharif was locked, as constitutionally illegaly as the cj has been, people actually celebrated.........due to this, no one has come on the street against musharraf, if the politicians are doing the calling.....

......however, as i highlighted earlier, people in pakistan still have some respect for the judiciary......so when this happened, people did respond.......while they would not respond when this happened to nawaz and bb etc........

......in addition, you have to look at the issue under discussion.......the cj had told the govt. to bring to court all the people whom it had arrested and who had then disappeared.....a great deal of them, if not most of them, are related to the GWOT......musharraf picks them and then they disappear.......they are tortured by the military and/or are handed to the us authorities.....people have become very anti-usa and anti-musharraf, ever since he has allowed the usa to bomb waziristan........the usa has, in the process killed a family and a whole set of students in a school.......i doubt the usa would bomb an american school, even if had info that timothy mcveigh was hiding there......people are also angry at musharraf for picking up pakistani citizens and handing them to the usa for GWOT.......without a trial....

.......this has further increased their support for the cj, since he was ruling against this.....

``since the islamic parties, mqm (read those with street power) and the US state dept are with musharaff things are cool.``

islamic parties are no longer with musharraf......they are his targets now, and he is theirs......the us state dept still fully supports him and will stop its, ``do more`` legislations if they see him getting weak.......mqm is with him but it is sitting on the fence....it will flip if it sees him getting weak.......

.......the real key group is ppp....it has the largest following in pakistan......what will it do......it could go either way......

Re: # 6

Bhai, I agree with you totally. I do not have much faith either that society is still capable of launching a massive political uprising. So it is going to be either of two extremes - one, that is the scenario that you present i.e. it will lose steam over time; and two, which I anticipate, that is a civil war. I think that in our society the doors of politics have been welded shut and instruments of activist politicss are closed for good.

In this hopeless scenario, Iftekhar Ch. can become a Messiah; he has a potential te be; if he holds his ground.

Re: # 5
Though the possibility cannot be rules out for such a wishful blindness on both sides, but given the history of CJP and that the matter has gone beyond the point of return, it sems unlikely that the two men would want to reconcile.

The man who calls himself the President, certainly most Pakistanis dont accept him as that, appears to be too confident of what he is doing. To make matters worse he has a group of clowns (one of the journalists called a sitting minister that..and rightfully so) who have only his interest to serve. The goverment and the President a.k.a CEO a.k.a Army General a.k.a. Loser, continue to state that the matter is being politicized. Even if it is, why not when they as politicians ( not including the President as a politician - I wonder if he knows what he really is) appear to be masters of constitution.

What my true worry is that the people in general, and some protesting groups (lawyers etc) in particular, over time may lose interest in the whole thing and the government will get its way. All those who have said that this is the deining moment, how true they are, and hopefully people will not back off from their protests no matter how long it takes. The General has single handedly destryed every civil (and military to some extent) institution in the country. Many can argue that he did the right thing. The essence of the system on which the country ran, however stands destroyed. I never knew that in our military academies these boys are taught how to run countries instead of defending them.

What really bothers me is a scenario where CJ and dictator strike a u-scratch-mine-I-scratch-urs deal after this debacle. There will be face saving of course; by judicial council summarily examining charges against CJ and finding him not guilty of any impropriety and in return Cj would ``forgive and forget`` the President`s reference against him by saying that ``President acted constitutionally and with in his powers; but since no harm done lets bygone be bygones``.

If this situation happens then dictator will cash the ``respect`` earned by CJ to legitimize his own dictatorship in the next general elections and his own ``election` by current assemblies by a seal of approval from CJ. Everybody understands how CJ would be made a `larger than life`` figure in the history of judiciary by the propagandists before that happens.

I think Iftekhar Chowdry bears the burden of entire nation upon himself. His conduct in the comming days might become the fate of this nation for many decades to come.

#3 Sadia you are being reactive.
Eitherway it suits the President. He will wriggle out anyway. He is someone who plans an exit strategy before he puts a plan into action.

Re: # 1
Dear jang,

As you might be aware, maulana`s along with the entire opposition is calling for country wide strike on Friday. However, MQM prefers not to choose sides when the matter is still controversial, not just in the said matter but since they started being `politically correct`. American senate has passed a bill today asking for `fair and just election and democracy in Pakistan`, not very likely under current crisis. So our dear President is not as safe as we might like to think he is.

Lets fend off the temptation to be utopian. Lets face realities.
Judiciary in Pakistan is another institution that needs a complete overhaul.

It laid the foundations of the `Law of Nessecity` and failed forever to ever invoke the Precedence of Previous Law.

It voluntarily (albeit brief cases carried by Tarrar) brought down a Chief Justice who single handedly wanted to take on the politicians and establishment for making the constitution a Joke.

Now Chaudary`s own colleagues sit in judgement over him.

Day in and Day out, Lower Courts churn out dubious judgements based on which way the cash flows.

In the final analysis, Chaudary may come out clean and everyone will say, `we respect the verdict`. If this happens than the next elections may find a new alliance. MMA will be traded off for PPPPPPPPP.

i just dont get it. there are allegations against the cj, and legal method is to refer the matter to his peers. this is one legal thing done by the gormint ...there were many other illegal ones but there was not this much hue and cry (on the chowk). anyhoo..since the islamic parties, mqm (read those with street power) and the US state dept are with musharaff things are cool.