Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen

Bkisan # 412

Wow!

Just to make sure, have you checked these are the same stories? I haven't followed the discussion.

Bkisan,

Are you pakistani? Would you please capture the spiritual core of Shanti (aka Islam in Arabic) so that we could indianize Shanti.

Re: # 274

HP commented that he had not read any of these stories before and tried to caste doubt upon them. He has in fact read them previously and commented upon them too:

He read them here:
http://www.chowk.com/interacts/7342/1/0/144#170277

Romair bhai: Here are the answers to your questions. Since it is quite long I will just put up a little part here and the URL and allow you to read the rest for yourself:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4intro.htm

Part Four
The judgements concerning those who think
the Prophet imperfect or curse him

Section Two
The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who
curses the Prophet or finds fault with him


The Qur`an says that Allah curses the one who harms the Prophet in this world and He connected harm of Himself to harm of the Prophet. There is no dispute that anyone who curses Allah is killed and that his curse demands that he be categorised as an unbeliever. The judgement of the unbeliever is that he is killed.

Allah says, ``Those who harm Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and in the Next, and has prepared for them a humiliating punishment.`` (33:57). He said something similar about those who kill the believers. Part of the curse on them in this world is that they are killed. Allah says, ``Cursed they will be. Wherever they are found, they are seized and all slain.`` (33: 61) He mentions the punishment of those who fight, ``That is humiliation in this world for them.`` (5:45) ``Killing`` (qatl) can have the meaning of ``curse``.[6] Allah says, ``May the conjecturers be killed!`` (51:11) and ``May Allah fight them! How they are perverted!`` (9:30) i.e. may Allah curse them.

This is because there is a difference between their harming Allah and His Messenger and harming the believers. Injuring the believers, short of murder, incurs beating and exemplary punishment. The judgement against those who harm Allah and His Prophet is more severe - the death penalty.

Allah says, ``No, by your Lord, they will not believe until they have you judge between them in what they disagree about.`` (4:65) He removes the badge of belief from those who find an impediment in themselves against accepting the Prophet?s judgement and do not submit to him. Anyone who disparages him is opposing his judgement.

Allah says, ``O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet and be not loud in your speech to him as you are loud to one another lest your actions fail.`` (49:3). Such an action only comes about through disbelief and the unbeliever is killed.

Allah says, ``When they come to you, they greet you with a greeting which Allah never greeted you with.`` Then He says, ``Jahannam is enough for them, an evil homecoming.`` (58:9)

Allah says, ``Among them are those who harm the Prophet and say that he is all ear,`` (9:61) and, ``Those who harm the Messenger of Allah have a painful punishment.`` (9:63)

Allah says, ``If you ask them, they will say, `We were only plunging and playing.` Say, `What, were you then mocking Allah, His signs and His Messenger? Make no excuses. You have disbelieved after your belief.``` (9:67-68) The commentators say, ``You have disbelieved`` refers to what they have said about the Messenger of Allah.

We have already mentioned the consensus. As for the traditions, al-Husayn ibn `Ali related from his father that the Messenger of Allah said in respect of this matter, ``Whoever curses a Prophet, kill him. Whoever curses my Companions, beat him.``[7]

In a sound hadith the Prophet commanded that Ka`b ibn al-Ashraf be killed. He asked, ``Who will deal with Ka`b ibn al-Ashraf? He has harmed Allah and His Messenger.`` He sent someone to assassinate him without calling him to Islam, in distinction to other idol-worshippers. The cause of that lay in his causing harm to the Prophet. That indicates that the Prophet had him killed for something other than idol-worship. It was for causing harm. Abu Rafi,` who used to harm the Messenger of Allah and work against him, was also killed.

Similarly on the Day of the Conquest, he ordered the killing of Ibn Khatal and his two slavegirls who used to sing his curses on the Prophet.

In another hadith about a man who used to curse the Prophet, the Prophet said, ``Who will save me from my enemy?`` Khalid said, ``I will,`` so the Prophet sent him out and he killed him.

Similarly the Prophet commanded that a group of unbelievers who used to injure and curse him, like an-Nadr ibn al-Harith and `Uqba ibn Abi Mu`ayt, be killed. He promised that a group of them would be killed before and after the conquest. They were all killed except for those who hurried to become Muslim before they were overpowered. Al-Bazzar related from Ibn `Abbas that `Uqba ibn Abi Mu`ayt cried out, ``O company of Quraysh, why is it that I alone among you am to be killed without war?`` The Prophet said, ``For your disbelief and your forging lies against the Messenger of Allah.``

`Abdu`r-Razzaq mentioned that a man cursed the Prophet, causing the Prophet to say, ``Who will save me from my enemy?`` Az-Zubayr said, ``I will.`` He sent az-Zubayr and he killed him.

It is related that a woman used to curse the Prophet and he said, ``Who will save me from my enemy?`` Khalid ibn al-Walid went out and killed her.

It is related that a man forged lies against the Prophet and he sent `Ali and az-Zubayr to kill him.

Ibn Qani` related that a man came to the Prophet and said, ``Messenger of Allah, I heard my father say something ugly about you, so I killed him,`` and that did not distress the Prophet.

Al-Mujahir ibn Abi Umayya, the Amir of Yemen, reported to Abu Bakr that a woman there in the time of the Ridda[8]chanted curses against the Prophet, so he cut off her hand and pulled out her front teeth. When Abu Bakr heard that, he said to him, ``If you had not done what you already did, I would have commanded you to kill her because the hadd regarding the Prophet is not like the hadd regarding others.``

Ibn `Abbas said that a woman from Khatma[9] satirised the Prophet and the Prophet said, ``Who will deal with her for me?`` A man from her people said, ``I will, Messenger of Allah.`` The man got up and went and killed her. He told the Prophet who said, ``Two goats will not lock horns over her.``[10]

Ibn `Abbas said that a blind man had an umm walad who used to curse the Prophet. He scolded her and restrained her, but she would not be restrained. That night she began to attack and revile the Prophet, so he killed her. He told the Prophet about that and he said he had shed her blood with impunity.[11]

In the hadith of Abu Barza as-Aslami it says, ``One day I was sitting with Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and he became angry at one of the Muslim men.`` Qadi Isma`il and other Imams said that the man had cursed Abu Bakr. An-Nasa`i related it as, ``I came to Abu Bakr and a man had been rude and answered him back. I said, `Khalif of Allah, let me strike off his head!` He said, `Sit down. That is not for anyone except the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace.`

Qadi Abu Muhammad ibn Nasr said, ``No one disagreed with him.`` So the Imams take this, as a proof that anyone who does anything that might anger, harm or curse the Prophet in any way should be killed.


There is also the letter of `Umar ibn `Abdu`l-`Aziz to his governor in Kufa. He had asked his advice about killing a man who had cursed `Umar. `Umar wrote back to him, ``It is not lawful to kill a Muslim for cursing anyone except the Messenger of Allah. Whoever curses him, his blood is lawful.``

Harun ar-Rashid asked Malik about a man who had reviled the Prophet and he mentioned to him that the fuqaha` of Iraq had given a fatwa that he be flogged. Malik became angry and said, ``Amir al-Mu`minin! There is no continuation for a community after it curses its Prophet! Whoever curses the Companions of the Prophet is to be flogged.``

I do not know which of those Iraqi fuqaha` gave Harun ar-Rashid that fatwa. We have already mentioned that the school of the people of Iraq[12] is that he be killed. Perhaps they were among those who were not known for knowledge or those whose fatwas were unreliable or idiosyncratic, or it is possible that what the man said was not taken to be a curse and there was a dispute as to whether or not it was a curse or he had retracted it and repented of it. None of these things were mentioned to Malik at all. However, the consensus is that anyone who curses him is to be killed as we have already stated.

That he is to be killed can be deduced by reflection and consideration. Anyone who curses or disparages the Prophet has shown clear symptoms of the sickness of his heart and proof of his real convictions and belief. That is why most of the `ulama` judge him to be an apostate. This is what is transmitted by the people of Syria from Malik, al-Awza`i, ath-Thawri, Abu Hanifa and the people of Kufa.

The other position is that it is not a proof of disbelief, and so the person in question is killed by the hadd-punishment but he is not adjudged to be an unbeliever unless he persists in his words, not denying them nor refraining from them. To be judged an unbeliever, his statement must either be a clear statement of disbelief, like calling the Prophet a liar, or originate from mocking words and censure. His open avowal of what he said and lack of repentance for it is an indication that he finds it lawful and this constitutes disbelief, so there is no disagreement that he is an unbeliever. Allah says about people like this, ``They swear by Allah that they did not speak. They said the words of disbelief. They disbelieved after their Islam.`` (9:76)

The commentators said that this refers to the statement, ``If what is said by Muhammad is true,[13] we are worse than monkeys.``

It is said that it refers to what one of them[14] said, ``Our likeness with respect to that of Muhammad is only as the words of the one who says, `Feed your dog and it will devour you.` When we return to Madina, the mighty will drive out the weaker.``

It is said that even if the one who says this conceals it, the same judgement applies to him as to the heretic and he is killed because he has changed his deen. The Prophet said, ``Strike off the heads of all who change their deen.``

Because upholding the Prophet`s honour is an obligation owed by his entire community and anyone who curses a free man of his community is given a hadd-punishment, the punishment of someone who curses the Prophet is that he is to be is killed because of the immensity of the worth of the Prophet and his elevation over others.

He then commented upon them here:
http://www.chowk.com/interacts/7342/1/0/128#170293

Taslima Nasreen wrote the following interesting article after this fatwa fiasco:

OPINION
It Feels, Speaks, Smells Like Home
If not East Bengal, perhaps West Bengal? All I want is to be with people of my culture, to write in my language.


Taslima Nasreen


| e-mail | one page format | feedback: send - read |


What is my crime? My crime is that I have found that Islam does not consider woman a separate human being. Man is the original creation and womankind was created secondarily for the pleasure of man. Islam considers woman a slave, a sexual object and a son-producing machine. The Hadith says that two prayers that never reach the heavens are: those of escaping slaves and of women who frustrate their husbands at night.

Islam considers women psychologically inferior. In Islamic law, the testimony of two women is worth that of one man. In a case where a man suspects his wife of adultery or denies the legitimacy of the offspring, his testimony is worth that of four witnesses.



Bangladesh doesn`t want me. So if India gives me a home, why should it concern Bangladesh at all?


A woman does not have the right to charge her husband likewise. Women cannot inherit property equally with their brothers.

And after all the rights and freedom, after getting all the sexual pleasure and pleasure of being the masters, men will


be rewarded with wine, food, and 72 virgins in Paradise, including their wives on earth. And what is the reward for a pious woman? Nothing. Nothing but the same old husband, the same man who caused her suffering while they were on earth. It became clear to me that the male of the species had written the holy Quran for its own interest, its own comfort, its own fun. Then I studied other religions, and I found they, too, oppressed women. Far too many women are trafficked and sold into slavery. Men throw acid on their bodies, burn their faces, smash their noses, melt their eyes, and walk away with impunity.

They are beaten, flogged, stoned to death. Women are raped, then accused of having allowed the rape, and the rapists are set free. Violence against women in not a crime in my country.

Nobody taught me to protest, but from an early age I learnt the importance


Some say this might worsen India`s ties with Bangladesh. When I stay in America or Europe, do their relations worsen?




of fighting against oppression. I wanted to write books so that I could change this. Wanting to do something constructive, I wrote about the need for women to understand why they are oppressed and why they should fight back. For centuries, women have been taught that they must not speak out against their abusers. Through my writings, I tried to encourage women to fight for their rights and freedom. My voice gave women the chance to think differently.

That did not please the religious fundamentalists, of course. They grew enraged when I said that religious law, which discriminates against women, needs to be replaced by a secular law with a uniform civil code. Before long, hundreds of thousands of extremists appeared on the streets and demanded my execution by hanging. A fatwa was issued against me, setting a price on my head. The government, instead of taking action against the fundamentalists, took action against me. I was charged with blasphemy. An arrest warrant was issued. I had to go into hiding, and later, in 1994, forced to leave my country. Since then, I have tried to go back home many times, but with no luck. Instead of being able to live where I was born and brought up, I had to go and live in western Europe, where I was condemned to a life term as an outsider. How to express that hopeless, helpless feeling: a stranger in my own country, and a stranger in the West.

My only hope now is West Bengal. I have never distinguished between the two Bengals. For me they are inseparable. My parents were born in undivided India, not I. But I did feel the pain of partition. Nearly a decade ago I wrote: ``India wasn`t a scrap of paper that it could be torn into pieces. The people who fought in 1971 wiped away the two-nation theory, proved that Muslim unity was a myth``; ``we are extending our hands towards each other and between us stands the monster of religious boundaries``. For this, I was called a traitor in Bangladesh.

The torture of innocents inspired me to write my documentary novel Lajja. When I spoke about Hindus being oppressed, Muslims called me a plaything of Hindu fundamentalists. When I received a prestigious literary award in India, I became an outcast in the literary circle of Bangladesh. They called me an agent of raw. I didn`t even know the meaning of raw then!

Since I started writing, I`ve faced lies and constant character assassination. Religion is the biggest obstacle in the path of freedom of women; but whenever I say this, I fall into the clutches of fundamentalists. They were angry with me from the beginning but gradually I found even moderate Muslims became my enemies. When I was forced to leave my country, I kept hoping the situation would improve someday and I`d finally go home. But I couldn`t have been more wrong.

No matter which party came to power in the last 12 years, the government`s agenda remained the same as far as my fate was concerned: I was barred from entering my own country. The political parties thought alike: if they allow me in, they would be labelled anti-religious and lose votes. Western Europe has given me asylum. That`s given me some security, but it`s not home. Repeatedly I tried to return to Bangladesh. Not being able to do so tore me to bits. Then I found the other Bengal. If not home to East Bengal, perhaps I could go to West Bengal, to Calcutta, a place that was almost home? But that wasn`t easy either. India`s doors stayed shut for me for six years, from 1994 to 1999.

The door finally opened—if you can deem it thus—in November `99. I was granted a tourist visa. Any tourist with a European passport can get a visa from an Indian embassy abroad. But my case was different. My appeal had to be sent to Delhi and a visa came with endless caveats. If I wanted a visa for three months, I got it for perhaps three days. After a few visits, I tried for anything that would let me stay here longer: citizenship, if not that, a residential permit.

Was I asking for too much? I am not taking anyone`s job. All I want is to live a writer`s life. As a writer I crave for my language, to live with people who share my culture—is that so unjustified? Western Europe saved my life; I can`t help but hope India will save me as a writer. There are writers who can write in exile, living in a country where no one speaks her language or understands her culture. I can`t. There are many who leave their own country willingly. I haven`t.

As a writer, I need India for many reasons. In Europe and the US, I may find asylum but I will always stand apart as an outsider, either because of my colour or culture. Here in India, no matter which city or state I travel in, I don`t ever feel like a foreigner, I merge easily into the crowd. I need that melting down in order to be able to write.

India is a vast country. From the beginning of history, innumerable people ended up in this cul de sac. Some have visited and then left, others have stayed, sending their roots firmly down. India has always warmly embraced every stranger, people of different colours, languages, religions, ethnicity and opinions. The door was ever open to an outsider. With hundreds of languages and cultures, India is unique in its generosity to the stranger. So why is there no place for me?

I`ve never asked for political asylum from India. All I want is to be able to live here. I might breathe in a distant land somewhere, but my heart is in Bengal. So why is my appeal to live here dealt with politically? Some argue that if India were to grant me citizenship, then her relationship with Bangladesh would worsen. As if I were a common criminal wanted back home that India is harbouring! Fact is, Bangladesh doesn`t want me.So if India gives me a home, why should it concern Bangladesh at all? When I stay in Europe and America, does it worsen their relationship with Bangladesh? Instead, I imagine Bangladesh heaving a sigh of relief if India grants me shelter, like going to an aunt after fighting with your mother.

I can`t help recalling those days when authors from the West joined together to save me. They not only put pressure on their own governments but also prevailed on the European Union to save a writer from oblivion. It was thanks to their efforts that governments in the West were compelled to save me from being hanged. Then followed a kind of tug-of-war between various countries. Norway, Sweden, Germany, everyone wanted me to live with them. Granting me residency or even citizenship was a prestige issue for them: it would ensure them fame.

I don`t know who decides whether or not I stay in West Bengal. Some say the government wants to please the Muslims. Some say it`s the intellectuals who`re afraid, or jealous. Did West Bengal ever love me? Yes, she did. Annadasankar Roy, a famous free thinker, once said affectionately that ``Bangladesh is Taslima`s mother and West Bengal her aunt``. When I talked of women`s rights, I got a hard kick from Bangladesh and a kiss from West Bengal. Actually it`s not the country which kicks or kisses, but the people. I have noticed that the number of secular and rational people here is far more than in Bangladesh.

And just as I love East Bengal, return again and again at its door even when I`ve been thrown out, just so do I love and return here to West Bengal.

Re: #409

I could say bad things about your mother too.

But ask yourself - you are cursing the Brahmins for holding your community`s progress back - but Brahmins are a relatively recent phenomenon in most parts of the Indian subcontinent - WHY were your forefathers devoid of any literary, scientific, artistic or philosophical achievements BEFORE the Brahmins ever showed up?

Instead of behaving like the snot-nosed little punk that you are, TRY TO ANSWER THIS.

When you find you have no answer, ask me - I`ll tell you.

You may not like the answer too much.

`` I`m sorry to tell you this, but your EEGs are still flat. :)) ``

Dude, outting a :)) after your comment does not make it funny. That was like the lamest comeback ever...



``Now, now. Don`t get emotional. It`s not your fault that you are a low performer. You are doing the best with what you got. ``

And I am quite content. U are the one who seems to be full of rage. Sux to be you I guess.


``Touched a nerve, eh? :) But you can get over you being born into the shallow end of the gene pool. Work hard. Have you tried animal husbandry? Talk to Jang. He`ll fix you up with something. :) ``

Actually, thank you for helping me recognize the true enemy. It is within the Hindu fold and it is called Brahmin.



``Easier said than done, numbnuts. :) We Brahmins are going to order you around as long as we want. :) Heh heh heh... ``

Right, and I will sit here and call you a son of a filth ridden devdaasi whore :) Thank you, come again!!


``We get rewarded on merit. Unlike you lowlives. You mofokkers are the leeches. Not us.

Now go see if you can get a free handout. That`s the best you can do with your low grades. :))
``

Oh puhleeze. At least the Mozzies screw those who are outside of their religion. U lot srew your own co-religionists. It is good to see you lot get your just desserts.

Re: # 402, rahul_capri,

`Religion is both political and spiritual.`

If you permit me, I will slightly modify your comment. Religion, essentially is political and the spiritual aspect of it is just a tool to organize people behind itself for use as a fodder in battles for gaining power. In other words it is rather against the genuine individual spirituality as people would practice if allowed to. In this respect I like the honesty of Zeemax who seldom discusses spirituality aspect of Islam which, he knows, is fast losing its sheen of spirituality. This doesn`t mean that other Abrahmic religions still have that sheen but they have already accepted the fact that religions have lost their spirituality long ago. As for the eastern religions, they have altogether different concept of spirituality, perhaps bordering philosophy.

Samar

#404 by stuka

[HAHA, what flatliner u mofo? I am sitting here in front of my screen typing out curses to a damn Brhamin all thanks to education and socio-economic development and there is nothing your mantra chanting arse can do about it. Hey, Life is good. ]

I`m sorry to tell you this, but your EEGs are still flat. :))



[Dude, are you actually that idiotic? What statement do u have to prove that you are anything beyond a high school grad? Besides, I don`t think I even knew any poor Brahmins. In fact, come to think of it, I didn;t really know any poor people. HAHAHA...So, the poor Brahmins can go screw themselves..I don`t give a shit. ]

Now, now. Don`t get emotional. It`s not your fault that you are a low performer. You are doing the best with what you got.


[And isn`t that the truth as you percieve it you racist sonofabitch. This ultimatly is your Hindutva Dream, Brahmin master race ruling over the rest of the Hindus. Well, ain`t gonna happen. You fcukers have seen the last of your political power..and now with steady erosion of Brahminical influence in the private sector, there will soon be limbo for the Brahmin race in India. The example set by Tamil Nadu will spread across the rest of the country. ]

Touched a nerve, eh? :) But you can get over you being born into the shallow end of the gene pool. Work hard. Have you tried animal husbandry? Talk to Jang. He`ll fix you up with something. :)


[``But I think you should see that it is very obvious to everyone on Chowk how you are constantly trying to cozy up to HP and other mooslas, and them giving you the dhimmi treatment as prescribed in the koran. Why don`t you ``convert`` and become another pedophile-follower?``

You would like that, right? U long to the Hindu Mullah with the power to excommunicate. Wellm screw you. I remain Hindu and Proud. And I hate and despise only one Hindu caste, the Brahmin. The Brahmin is the enemy of the Hindu, to be exterminated from the Hindu religion so that all other castes can coexist in peace. ]

Easier said than done, numbnuts. :) We Brahmins are going to order you around as long as we want. :) Heh heh heh...


[Well, I am quite happy making the grade in the Hindu religion. As far as leaving it, how can I? It is so much easier to destroy the Brahmin`s hold from within, rather than without. You see, I am proud to be a Hindu and I am proud of hating Brahmins. You know lot are parasites]

We get rewarded on merit. Unlike you lowlives. You mofokkers are the leeches. Not us.

Now go see if you can get a free handout. That`s the best you can do with your low grades. :))

#405 Sattar2

[no religion preaches fanaticism]

Very well-said, sir! In fact, doing so would probably negate the very purpose of any religion - the seeking of spiritual satisfaction.

bjkumar (#397),

You have a point in that fanaticism may define all religions, and not exclusively Islam.

My view is that all religions … Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Zorastrianism, Islam, and many others … originated from the same Source. In my view, no religion preaches fanaticism. How followers choose to apply its teachings is a different issue altogether.

Fanatic behavior pattern may emerge as emphasis of followers shifts from peace and justice for all to a power-usurping, political ideology. Present day ummah tends to lean more in favor of rigidity and forceful imposition, and less towards reasoning and compromise.

My comment (hatred being mainstream Islam’s defining aspect in this day and age) was meant to underscore the way in which mainstream Islam is responding, as well as being viewed, across the globe, today.

``
Brahmins have been, are and will always remain amongst the top elites of India in every sphere of life.``

Yup, we agree that they are parasites.

``Nothing that you flatliners can do anything about. Go line up outside V.P Singh`s door for handouts.``

HAHA, what flatliner u mofo? I am sitting here in front of my screen typing out curses to a damn Brhamin all thanks to education and socio-economic development and there is nothing your mantra chanting arse can do about it. Hey, Life is good.



``[Actually I have no shortcoming.]
What do you have to back that statement up? How do you explain your inferior grades and substandard performance in anything competitive? How come much poorer Brahmins scored higher than you?

Eh?``

Dude, are you actually that idiotic? What statement do u have to prove that you are anything beyond a high school grad? Besides, I don`t think I even knew any poor Brahmins. In fact, come to think of it, I didn;t really know any poor people. HAHAHA...So, the poor Brahmins can go screw themselves..I don`t give a shit.



[I being very comfoptrable in my skin hating you Nazi lot right back. ]

``You are inferior. So I don`t blame you for becoming a commie. Because that is one way you can get equal treatment compared to people who actually have brains.``


And isn`t that the truth as you percieve it you racist sonofabitch. This ultimatly is your Hindutva Dream, Brahmin master race ruling over the rest of the Hindus. Well, ain`t gonna happen. You fcukers have seen the last of your political power..and now with steady erosion of Brahminical influence in the private sector, there will soon be limbo for the Brahmin race in India. The example set by Tamil Nadu will spread across the rest of the country.


``But I think you should see that it is very obvious to everyone on Chowk how you are constantly trying to cozy up to HP and other mooslas, and them giving you the dhimmi treatment as prescribed in the koran. Why don`t you ``convert`` and become another pedophile-follower?``

You would like that, right? U long to the Hindu Mullah with the power to excommunicate. Wellm screw you. I remain Hindu and Proud. And I hate and despise only one Hindu caste, the Brahmin. The Brahmin is the enemy of the Hindu, to be exterminated from the Hindu religion so that all other castes can coexist in peace.

``Of course, caste being a big deal amongst cutloos in Pakiland, you will never get to be the equals of types like Ali_1, HP, Mantolives and Urstruly. But you might manage to marry into a family from the lower end. ``

So, you think that Ali, HP and Manto are from the ``higher end``? You mean they are Brahmins who converted to Islam? WOW, your Brahminical status does not have a strong pull if people are converting to Islam right?

``I`m not sure what is stopping you from leaving the Hindu religion. Go join the pedophile worshippers. That`s one place you`ll make the grade. :)``

Well, I am quite happy making the grade in the Hindu religion. As far as leaving it, how can I? It is so much easier to destroy the Brahmin`s hold from within, rather than without. You see, I am proud to be a Hindu and I am proud of hating Brahmins. You know lot are parasites :)

#398 by stuka

[Actually you have to figure out how we can game a system where your caste is approaching complete powerlessness from a socio-economic standpoint. Check out the UP elections for instance, the Brahmin is a political orphan nowhere close to the epicenter of power. ]

Brahmins have been, are and will always remain amongst the top elites of India in every sphere of life.

Nothing that you flatliners can do anything about. Go line up outside V.P Singh`s door for handouts.



[Actually I have no shortcoming.]

What do you have to back that statement up? How do you explain your inferior grades and substandard performance in anything competitive? How come much poorer Brahmins scored higher than you?

Eh?


[I being very comfoptrable in my skin hating you Nazi lot right back. ]

You are inferior. So I don`t blame you for becoming a commie. Because that is one way you can get equal treatment compared to people who actually have brains.

But I think you should see that it is very obvious to everyone on Chowk how you are constantly trying to cozy up to HP and other mooslas, and them giving you the dhimmi treatment as prescribed in the koran. Why don`t you ``convert`` and become another pedophile-follower?

Of course, caste being a big deal amongst cutloos in Pakiland, you will never get to be the equals of types like Ali_1, HP, Mantolives and Urstruly. But you might manage to marry into a family from the lower end. And forget about marrying into a cutloo family from Iran or anywhere in the middle east. They treat your masters like dogs, so they won`t even spit on you.

I`m not sure what is stopping you from leaving the Hindu religion. Go join the pedophile worshippers. That`s one place you`ll make the grade. :)

samar, the way I see it is..God is spiritual . Religion is both political and spiritual.(because it is about identity). So from an atheist`s point of view, a believer would probably stress more on the spiritual aspect, than the political.(There is someone like advani who says he is an atheist/political Hindu)So.....my apprehension when zeemax talks about political context of religion. But may be this yardstick does not apply to Islam because Islam , as zeemax said, is ``the complete code of all existence and non-existence simplified and put in a few authoritative terms.``

Re: # 400, rahul_capri,

It needs no ``westoxicated education`` to contend that if you believe in God then believing in anything other than God is not believing in God and therefore is blasphemy. So you are right that not only Zees on Chowk but everyone who believes in scriptures and their interpretations by some human beings are atheists or agnostics. When you know beforehand you stop trying to know. You only have concepts which is not God.

Samar

It following sentences by kaal and zee helped me understand the interaction on this board.
``Still, to reiterate, at this time, this view is based on nothing more than semi-deductive guess work and hunches.``
``Islam actually is the complete code of all existence and non-existence simplified and put in a few authoritative terms.``
If I ever need religion, I have got enough pointers here..(Though it may be a different religion and I may reach different answers).
On another note,kaalchakra, I am surprised how someone can believe in religion to the extent you do without believing in God. By that token, I consider zeemax too as a closet atheist,since he seems to believe in religion more than he believes in God. But of course ,I realize that seeing God and religion as separate is more the result of my ``westoxicated education`` (thanx echo) ,than anything else.

kaal,

Commenting on your half-baked theories would be futile.

MiaN, you may also pass gas, tell me it smells good, and ask me “why”. One plausible explanation would be that … you’re finally getting used to having your head stuck up your arse. I offer the same explanation to your ideas about Ahmedism; hope this suffices for now.

+++

zeemax (#386),

Problem lies not with carrying the “flag”, but with wearing a suicide belt! And don’t overlook the possibility that liberals may be shunning Islam … due to its forceful imposition by your ullema in the first place. Entertaining this possibility may open doors to a better formulation of your dilemma.

C’mon now, do you really want me to quote Maudoodi??? Or you may simply ask Urstruly about Islamic punishment for apostasy, adultery, and blasphemy.