Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen

``#394 by krishna_abcd on April 29, 2007 4:17pm PT
#382 by stuka

[I have done reading and don`t need to learn shit from you, you Brahmin motherfukker. Now shut the fukk up before I bitch slap your ass back to Banaras. Bhainchod. ]

It is one thing to say these things on Chowk. It is quite another to carry out these threats in person. While it is not really pertinent to the argument, the chances are quite high that if we met in person, I would be able to shove your foot inside your mouth. ``

And chances are that I would leave your asshole gaping like the Chunnel.

``But that is neither here nor there. ``

Exactly!!!

``I think you have to look into your own upbringing and genes to figure out why you are at the lower end of every performance index academically, while thousands of Brahmins from families far poorer than yours perform far above you at every level of academics.

But that would require some thought. So might as well go and queue up outside V.P. Singh`s office. ``

Actually you have to figure out how we can game a system where your caste is approaching complete powerlessness from a socio-economic standpoint. Check out the UP elections for instance, the Brahmin is a political orphan nowhere close to the epicenter of power.



``[Well, I am telling u to fukk off right now, aren`t I, u polluted product of a Devdasi and Brahmin.

I would rather teach your whore of a mother not to raise a son who talks back to her pimp. ]

My mother is the end product of thousands of years of erudition and culture. If you ever were in the same room as my mother, you, and everyone else present would see the obvious difference in class, character and personality. You are a no-good low-class closet-dalit trying to blame every Brahmin for your lack of brains and every other shortcoming. ``

Actually I have no shortcoming. If I was to stand next to you and your mother, I would see obvious differences in terms of you lot being a bunch of hate filled bigots and I being very comfoptrable in my skin hating you Nazi lot right back.

``I think your time would be better spent greasing up and bending over for assorted mooslas like HP and Urstruly. Because pretty soon your pedophile-worshipping girlfriend is going to be applying that pencil sharpener to your excuse for a penis. ``

And that`s what ot somes down to, you erudite Brahmin piece of shit. If anything its your unstaisfied Brahmin mom who must have opened her thighs for HER KHATRI CHOWKIDAR. NO WONDER U ARE SO FULL OF PISS AND VINEGAR. hahaha! Fucking dickhead ABCD!!

#396 Sattar2

Sattar2 sahib. For what it is worth, I do not personally believe that hatred is a defining aspect of Islam – any more than it is for any other religion – in the sense that hatred is a core emotion which afflicts all humans in varying degrees and at varying times!

What I do believe is that many followers of Islam (i.e., those on the “inside”) find themselves at a disadvantage in asking questions of enquiring nature and they may have misgivings but may be unable to even suggest those questions because the followers of the Mullah-types insist it is a REQUIREMENT for a believer to read from prepared script. This would stifle the ability of individuals (from the “inside”) to be able to ask questions that may perturb them – for fear of being “found” apostates.

Unlike what you say, I do not believe that all of the Ummah’s “problems” stem from within. However, the weaknesses which stop it from disallowing the projection of any core hatred of perhaps what is a numerically very small minority to a larger population – those weaknesses certainly appear to lie within.

That is why the likes of the Gill make every attempt to encourage a questioning mind – and the reason why the likes of this interactor value him – crappy write-up and all!

That is how I see it – I, of course, have no expertise on this subject.

Nor on any other subjects! (I seem to utterly lack the power of clairvoyance, from all accounts.)

bjkumar (#376),

I think stuka was merely explaining kaal’s motives, without necessarily suggesting that Islam’s problem is merely that of PR.

Yes, there are real jihadis blowing up people. An outlook marred by such hatred is perhaps a defining aspect of mainstream Islam in this day and age. Ummah’s problems stem from within, and not from an external source - agreed. And in that sense, kaal is on the right track when he suggests that Ahmedism appears to be a real and genuine threat to Islam.

kirshna (#380),

I should interject on issue of (supposedly crappy) treatment of a dhimmi by a Muslim.

While such treatment of non-Muslims may be supported by ummah, it squares off neither with my understanding of Islam, nor with my take on issues pertaining to human dignity. There is Islam, and then there is Islam; and the two can be very different.

I think Zeemax and Kaalchakra should open a mutual admiration society. Members, upon paying a (hefty) membership fee, would be allowed to sing unrestricted songs in praise of each other.

I can not afford the membership fee, of course, but will be happy to serve as the treasurer, keeping a small portion of the proceeds as my commission.

#382 by stuka

[I have done reading and don`t need to learn shit from you, you Brahmin motherfukker. Now shut the fukk up before I bitch slap your ass back to Banaras. Bhainchod. ]

It is one thing to say these things on Chowk. It is quite another to carry out these threats in person. While it is not really pertinent to the argument, the chances are quite high that if we met in person, I would be able to shove your foot inside your mouth.

But that is neither here nor there.

I think you have to look into your own upbringing and genes to figure out why you are at the lower end of every performance index academically, while thousands of Brahmins from families far poorer than yours perform far above you at every level of academics.

But that would require some thought. So might as well go and queue up outside V.P. Singh`s office.



[Well, I am telling u to fukk off right now, aren`t I, u polluted product of a Devdasi and Brahmin.

I would rather teach your whore of a mother not to raise a son who talks back to her pimp. ]

My mother is the end product of thousands of years of erudition and culture. If you ever were in the same room as my mother, you, and everyone else present would see the obvious difference in class, character and personality. You are a no-good low-class closet-dalit trying to blame every Brahmin for your lack of brains and every other shortcoming.

I think your time would be better spent greasing up and bending over for assorted mooslas like HP and Urstruly. Because pretty soon your pedophile-worshipping girlfriend is going to be applying that pencil sharpener to your excuse for a penis.

#392 by khurram,

I try khurram, but usually people are not interested in an honest discourse but rather material to hurl back at the other. With those I have had no choice but to become a `Ghazi Illum-Din` :)

Re: #391 zeemax
Great post! Why can`t you always write like this?

#390 by kaalchakra ,

You know, it is shocking how few educated and liberal Muslims even make any remotely serious attempt to study what makes Islam tick, let alone the non-Muslims.

The features of Islam are so vast that these can be quite mind boggling. When Maulanas say ``Islam is a complete code of life (mukammal zaabta-e-hyat)``, they are not wrong but all they`re referring to is the prescribed code of daily life, morality, social values, family values, jurisprudence, penal code, rituals, etc.; that`s just one part. Islam actually is the complete code of all existence and non-existence simplified and put in a few authoritative terms.

I don`t fault the Maulanas for that because they either have no exposure to evolution of western philosophical thought, or even those who do such as Dr. Israr, do not understand them very well or are limited to ancient philosophies of Aristotle and others with again no exposure of recent powerful trends such as existentialism. But I do fault the liberals for doing that.

Most Pakistani liberals do have the necessary exposure to all the above but do not make an attempt to assimilate what they`ve learnt from those and place them vis-a-vis the intrinsic Islamic thought. They dismiss Islam as something archaic and outdated, and kind of stigmatic to even consider. Further, they see it as a threat to their way of life for the reason that their way of life came into being through the industrial revolution and fall of the church (religion), and in an identical manner equate fall of societal / political Islam as a pre-condition to progress of Muslims. That is a fatal mistake and a dreadful miscalculation which can only exacerbate their problems.

Islam is perfectly compatible with progress, `but` towards ultimately egalitarian goals. Accumulation of wealth is fine but running after it blindly and selfishly is `shirk`. Interest (sood) is haram only because making money from money alone rather than rewards of physical activity in business and commerce is unjustified and creates a usurper class. All these are simple concepts which promote progress and innovation, rather than retard it. These are just two examples and far from exhaustive. There are many more.

Next what puts them off is the political Islam which can be ruthless, violent, and unrelenting in achieving its writ. Thereby the label of Islamofascism. It is because Islam does not recognize any authority `above` its own (i.e. sovereignty of Allah) in its own sphere, however big or small it may be. It can coexist on a global basis, but at the very minimum it may be willing to do so on an equal footing and no less. Whenever it is dismissed as unequal, or worse challenged in its own sphere, it will become `Islamofascist` in all connotations of the word. Then it will regenerate in its harshest form from within itself and crush everything in its path. You see, `Allah`s Will` cannot be abandoned or there will be no more Islam.

This is what you see happening in Pakistan right now and the federal interior minister almost got killed yesterday. If he had not miraculously escaped death, the process would be accelerated through Govt retaliation and blow-backs and Pakistan would be on fire. That was the intentional provocation which appears to have been staved off for the time-being. The same thing happened to the Algerian PM on 11th April, and a day later in Iraq`s parliament. I.e. direct attacks on the highest seats of Government.

The points of all the above are three. Firstly, Islam will not be suppressed. Secondly, it will not negotiate on a less than equal footing .... it will achieve an equal footing through whatever means before it will negotiate and; Thirdly Islam is a friend, not an enemy and does not pose a threat to people of any lifestyle or career ambition. It just requires commitment. If that`s not understood and its regarded as enemy, all bets are off.

Again, you know it`s not for your consumption. I`ll therefore also post this as an iLog.

Regards.

(P.S. Re one of your comments in #387, you may be a non-Muslim, (and you should remain so), but certainly no non-Believer. Being born Muslim does not make a Muslim. Neither does reciting a Kalima. Often it makes Munafiqs. What you talk about, you can`t be anything other than God`s humble and favoured servant, just as the believers are, only perhaps more so)

zeemax

In hindsight, I wasn`t as respectful of sattar sahib as I should have been. Whatever Ahmedism obviously is, Sattar sahib, without a doubt, WANTS to be a Muslim. Nor can any remotely doubt the total sincerity and great depth of his instinctive dislike of and hatred toward kufr - as you explained it. And, it`s no ordinary commitment and tenacity on his part to hold on so firmly to his burning religious passion and dedication despite the sometimes less than friendly reception he receives from both Muslims and non-Muslims.

So on your behalf and mine, I am glad to offer him a public apology. My only request would be that he please not go around calling you and other Muslims demons, and Islam, demonology, even though, we understand, he would like to put in its place something he calls `real Islam.`

That makes matters so much harder for others and for him. But hopefully, all this can be put behind peacefully.

---

As to the rest, the reactions of both Muslims and non-Muslims would have left me speech, had it not been expected. It does confirm the fear that creating a situation of respectful and honest Muslim-nonMuslim dialogue is going to take a lot of hard and difficult work. The root of the problem lies squarely in the unstated and unchallenged Gandhi-like fanaticism and bigotry of almost all non-Muslims. They remain steadfast in their refusal to systematically consider the possibility of any fully-developed and alternative mode of religiosity and being, significantly different from their own....:(

I will take a break soon to consider if a better, more effective and more efficient method of establishing a mutually beneficial dialogue can be found....

Kaalchakra,

You have tried in all sincerity, and now stand accused in their `katehra` (dock) with fingers pointed in amazement and personal abuse in rage as in ``How could you? Of all the people?`` by those your own; such that you were never subjected to in my 8 years of interaction on Chowk. You were always a respected sage. Now you`re a criminal.

That`s exactly what happened to each one in the early days who realized what Muhammad was saying, i.e. immediate ostracisation! And much worse, like dragging on burning hot sand and flogging while tied down ... even women .... also all by their own.

It was all to be expected and still is. Nothing new. That is why `Seerat` (character of Muhammad, and broadly his Companions) is as important as Qura`an itself in understanding Islam as Muhammad himself had asserted in his last sermon. He had asked people to follow both.

That is why Yvonne Ridley, after having been ostracised and punished, stands smiling in a crowd and says ``What extremists? I don`t know any!``.

People who quote Qura`anic verses, assign interpretations, and leave all else out are either ignorant or malicious. Precisely to remove these doubts, which he had foreseen, Muhammad had prescribed the above since he and his companions actually LIVED the Qura`an.

Islam emerged and spread in the light of history. Interpretations can be assigned to individual events or decisions, but in their totality their overall meaning cannot be denied.

I`m not a proselytizer, nor about to blow up anytime soon taking a few (innocents) with me (to the disappointment of many here), nor even about to depart on a radical mission in the path of Allah. I`m just as much or less of a career person as anyone else here. Islam has no issue with that. It just requires one in-the-least to be a `believer` which I fortunately am.

Just my two pennies worth on your post:

Islam too can work only when people who are to follow it, actually do follow it.

As long as there`re just a dozen Muslims left, the rest all killed, the `Alam` (Flag) will remain aloft and spread. Lord Nazir of Britain was saying the other day while chiding the House of Lords that how come we`re told there were 20,000 Taliban when we`ve killed 40,000?

There`s a lot of hoo-ha over that video of a 12 year old boy beheading a traitor. What no one noticed is that 12 year old boy is wearing a neatly-pressed brand-new freshly-tailored military uniform as are all around him. The point being made is not the beheading (that`s no big deal), but the depth of the movement. There were three generations in uniform (and not rag tag like before) in that video. That was significant. No one noticed that but everyone got stuck on indoctrination of children and stuff. The point being made was how many can you kill?

Particularly, when it was revealed to be so simple and straightforward a message that even the simplest person with the most basic comprehension and reasoning abilities can understand it.

I think Sattar said Qura`an is esoteric. That`s totally wrong. Qura`an lays out conclusions at the end of each verse so there`s no ambiguity in interpretation for the common person. However, if one wants to delve into the ``why`s``, that`s quite esoteric and anyone who wishes to do so may do so. But in the end, the only answer he`ll find is exactly as it was written in the first place in those simple verses ending in ``Allah is all Wise``, ``All Knowing`` and the such.

...who pull desperately ... to generate new meanings for every-day words, do so deliberately because they have no faith whatsoever in anything that they know Islam clearly says .... They are kafirs.

I wouldn`t go as far as that yet ... Kaal. At-least not for Sattar Saheb. There`re many Mushriks here (who hold other things dearer over Allah), Many Munafiqeen (who pretend but aren`t), but only a few Kafirs. I don`t regard Sattar as one of them. Again, not yet. The only definition of Kafir is `enemy of Allah` (and not all non-Muslims as many people think), and that is beyond redemption. Kufr is a dark state in which if a person falls, even the harshest punishment can only be euthanasia.

....it seems extremely doubtful that the God of Islam would have wanted this sort of dishonest Quranism to be the beginning and the end of Islam, or even central to it.

It isn`t central to it at all. That`s what Iqbal is saying here and the `believers` know it very well, almost all of whom have never even heard of Iqbal, but know Muhammad:



Although I do swear, I communicate directly with God.

I have absolutely no doubt that you do.

Regards.

#381 by zeemax on April 28, 2007 0:13am PT

My dear Zee, you need to stop your obsession with my meager and long-forgotten-by-the-rest contributions on this web-site – such as those dealing with caravans and associated objects (persons, places, and vegetables) lest you become ground to dust yourself.

Remind yourself that you are part of the caravan, only headed the wrong way from the rest of the travelers! :(

Hopefully, you will realize the folly while there is still time!

stuka, Beej

I am more with stuka on this. We really have to stop this obsession with ``problems with Islam.`` That is not going to work. It is self-defeating, as Sattar bhai of all-Islam-is-evil-except-whatever-I-have-made-up-to-be-``My-Islam`` fame will, sooner or later, find out.

Stuka, I understand what REAL Islam is. It is not rocket science. Nor was it ever meant to be.

---

Zeemax

You need to find a way (since only you can do it) to help our friends get out of this ``problem with Islam`` mindset. Like anything else, after all, Islam too can work only when people who are to follow it, actually do follow it. Particularly, when it was revealed to be so simple and straightforward a message that even the simplest person with the most basic comprehension and reasoning abilities can understand it.

As an important sidenote, zee, the inescapable conclusion is that people who make it all very complex - with interpretations upon interpretations piled a mile high - who pull desperately from Aramatic to AJAX to generate new meanings for every-day words, do so deliberately because they have no faith whatsoever in anything that they know Islam clearly says.

They are kafirs.

Only much worse (in my opinion, at least) since they are consciously using God-given talent to trick both God and man. Real Kafirs are, at worst, just ignorant or are simply not blessed with faith.

If I had faith, I would become a Muslim in an instant. These days Quranism, it seems, is all the rage. The idea seems to be that you can do, say, believe anything and everything you please so long as you can pull out of some odd fragment from the Quran and claim that that fragment supports your choice, words, and actions - none of which arose from the simple and straightforward Islam in the first place.

I am no Muslim, but it seems extremely doubtful that the God of Islam would have wanted this sort of dishonest Quranism to be the beginning and the end of Islam, or even central to it.

Khair, what do I know? Not being a Punjabi I can`t even claim for myself the title of a new Prophet. Although I do swear, I communicate directly with God.

(That last bit is supposed to be a stupid joke. Given how easy it is convincing people who know how to wear suites, I would hate to start receiving applications for followerships.)

#377 by kaalchakra

...obviously unislamic things claiming to be ``real`` Islam from time to time (that is a wonderful strength of Islam which zeemax will appreciate;..

You bet I do. They all carry the `Flag`. They may whimper, grumble, mumble, beg, plead, make faces, whine ... knowingly or unknowingly, whatever, but they`ll always carry that flag. They just can`t lay it down because they are nothing without it :)

Kaal:

``
So we must look for light everywhere else within the Islamic world, as far as this new and improved ``REAL Islam`` is concerned. [Let`s face it: Any thing that appeals as REAL Islam only to our friendly stuka and bj duo (other than to Sattar bhai) is unlikely to have much credibility in the eyes of the Divine God who worked so hard to create Islam. And if these two dear Hindu friends really are the only ones who can see this REAL islam, then sattar bhai should immediately revert to Hinduism (Where he would actually be welcome, being in a large company of other REAL Muslims like himself)]. ``

Please don`t flatter me. I have no claim to know the REAL Islam. My point is, neither do you. But you claim to recognize Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto as a supreme spokesperson of Islam after the prophet Mohammad since you take his assertion of Ahmedis being Non Muslims as fact.

Zeemax, notice why I am not abusing you. Because you are truly, genuinely an idiot. You are not even intelligent enough to be a bigot. You are just another stupid old man whose best days are behind him and who mouths off trying to live a life bigger than its own pathetic existence.

``(1) The “problem” that “Islam” is currently encountering is not a “public relations” problem to be fixed through supplies from the lipstick factory! There are real jihadis blowing up real people! The solution is that those jihadis be disarmed (singing praises of Sufism is easier but also pointless in solving the “problem”).``

No BJ, It is not Islam that is killing people, it is a subset of Muslims. And yes, let us all agree to kill that subset.


``(2) The people creating this “problem” are doing so from the INSIDE. There are real mullahs invoking, there are real families sending in their young as fodder and there are real political figures trying to capitalize.

For those truly concerned, perhaps it is worthwhile to deal with the “problem” inside. If one does that, what those located on the “outside” say – will cease to matter.``

Inside of what? The Koran? No, inside of Muslim societies. So yeah, bomb them.

``And if the objective is indeed to address the “problem”, perhaps a bit of “honesty” will work better. Perhaps start by examining WHY what you call “Zeemax type Islam” could become the sole version of Islam – a concern that you expressed (I doubt it personally, because I still put stock in people to put stock in common-sense).``

What honesty? I am being as hoonest as I can. If you want to sit here and bitch about Semitic religions versus eastern religions, sure, I can do that. But if you want to isolate Islam from Judaism and expect me to take Chutiyas like Krishna ABCD who have read three articles on Islam on the web to be taken seriously, you are very much mistaken.


``There is inherent dishonesty in equating Kaal’s leg-pulling of Sattar2 with Zeemax’s deliberate promotion of a radical agenda. ``

No there is not. Ultimately, anyone who wants to suppress freedom of thought is equally the enemy.