Understanding the Death Fatwa on Taslima Nasreen

``[Kaal realizes that the true seductive power of Islam was not the Islam of the Sword but the Islam of the Sufis.]

Read up on Sufism and Islam, dickhead. Sufism has borrowed most of its philosophy from Hinduism, especially the Bhakti traditions in Hinduism. Sufi mysticism has nothing to do with Islam.

Do some reading before shooting off your mouth.``

I have done reading and don`t need to learn shit from you, you Brahmin motherfukker. Now shut the fukk up before I bitch slap your ass back to Banaras. Bhainchod.


[What I don`t understand is why Sattar even gives power to a Kaffir to define Islam to begin with. Was Mohammad the left testicle of Kaalchakra or the right one of Zeemax that they have the power to define Islam. One is a Kaffir and the other a Taqfeeri, both should be told to fukk off. ]

And you think that as a ass-licker dhimmi, you have the right to tell people to ``fukk off``? ``

Well, I am telling u to fukk off right now, aren`t I, u polluted product of a Devdasi and Brahmin.

``Ask your master HP how a dhimmi (especially a closet-dalit freak-job like yourself) should be treated by a Muslim like HP as prescribed in the koran. ``

I would rather teach your whore of a mother not to raise a son who talks back to her pimp.

It is hilarious to watch all these `real` and `tolerant` muslims, sufis, liberals, moderates, shamimists, and other assorted kanjars, pimps and bhands appear one by one on their `chobaras` and `kothas`, writhing in the colic pain of their helpless fury, tossing buckets of garbage on the all-conquering caravan passing below proceeding ever undeterred onwards to its ever renewed destinations.

In the end, for these it will be: `Karvan guzar gaya, ghubar dekhte rahe`.

(Or, as our great literati Beej. K. Singh had translated it: Gone is caravan - seek my eyes in vain; All I see is dust - dust full cloudy train)

Haha .. :)

#369 by stuka

[Kaal realizes that the true seductive power of Islam was not the Islam of the Sword but the Islam of the Sufis.]

Read up on Sufism and Islam, dickhead. Sufism has borrowed most of its philosophy from Hinduism, especially the Bhakti traditions in Hinduism. Sufi mysticism has nothing to do with Islam.

Do some reading before shooting off your mouth.


[What I don`t understand is why Sattar even gives power to a Kaffir to define Islam to begin with. Was Mohammad the left testicle of Kaalchakra or the right one of Zeemax that they have the power to define Islam. One is a Kaffir and the other a Taqfeeri, both should be told to fukk off. ]

And you think that as a ass-licker dhimmi, you have the right to tell people to ``fukk off``? Ask your master HP how a dhimmi (especially a closet-dalit freak-job like yourself) should be treated by a Muslim like HP as prescribed in the koran.

Just to look up one datapoint, I checked out one country where I thought conditions should be excellent and most favorable to this REAL and updated Word from our own Punjabi Messiah of Islam - Bangladesh.

No, the situation does NOT look good. :(

But may be, all this craziness and inability to see the TRUE Light has something to do with backwardness and hopelessness of (non-Punjabi) Indic tradition itself! Sattar bhai, we will now wait for some information from you about the Ahmedi goings on in other Muslim countries.

Huh? I thought I had deleted these two consecuative paragraphs:

``Now, in Pakistan we know the situation - - - - would naturally be born bigots, genetically wedded to the ``wrong`` Islam.`` And

``So we must look for light everywhere else - - - - (Where he would actually be welcome, being in a large company of other REAL Muslims like himself)].``

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Darn, this may be divine punishment. A clear sign from On High :(

Stuka, bjkumar

I love you guys; really, and there is nothing either of you can say that I will take amiss. I KNOW stuka. So this is the end of my discussion with him on this subject.:)

Unless, of course, he wants to ask me any questions, which I will be pleased to answer to the best of my ability and time.

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Jang, to be fair to sattar bhai, # 363 was inappropriately placed. It belonged to the i-log musings section (if anyone recalls that`s where I first recorded my doubts about sufism). But since the mistake has been made, I am stuck with it. So let`s continue, being fully ready to jettison these speculations entirely if they turn out to be unsupported by data that is important for our purposes as concerned outsiders.

The parallelism with Sufism to which you alluded is of course quite relevant, in as much as we are talking, even here, of Islam. And about obviously unislamic things claiming to be ``real`` Islam from time to time (that is a wonderful strength of Islam which zeemax will appreciate; not sure about our obviously good friends stuka and beej bahadur :)).

Yet, focusing too much on that parallelism may also be, I fear, misleading. In its nature, Ahmedism appears to be radically different from Sufism. It will appeal to very different kind of people. And it will require very different behaviors from its real followers like sattar bhai. Sufism had an egalitarian heart. Ahmedism appears to possess an elitist gene. Sufism spoke of love. Ahemdism seems to possess nothing but one underlying, tacit purpose - spreading hatred (sorry, again, sattar bhai. I hope you have stopped reading what I write :(, and group-level arguments are not at all a guide to judge individuals.). I can go on, but I hope you get the point.

But there is one immeasurably large difference here with sufism. Ahmedism, if it becomes anything nontrivial, appears to be a REAL and genuine threat to Islam. That`s why outside of Chowk, educated and concerned Muslims may not accept it as one of their own or celebrate it as a tremendous Islamic achievement (Muslims, as groups of human beings, are NOT the brainless idiots that many chowki analysts continuously insist we must believe them to be).

Now, in Pakistan we know the situation, more or less. But what happens there can not support a compelling argument. As Indians, we can easily assume, in agreement with sattar bhai, that (non-Punjabi) Pakistanis are all brainless idiots who have never heard of the (real?) Quran. Particularly since the days of Bhutto. And agree further with sattar bhai`s experience that those post-Bhutto non-Punjabi Pakistanis who might have heard of the Quran and who take Islam seriously would naturally be born bigots, genetically wedded to the ``wrong`` Islam.

So we must look for light everywhere else within the Islamic world, as far as this new and improved ``REAL Islam`` is concerned. [Let`s face it: Any thing that appeals as REAL Islam only to our friendly stuka and bj duo (other than to Sattar bhai) is unlikely to have much credibility in the eyes of the Divine God who worked so hard to create Islam. And if these two dear Hindu friends really are the only ones who can see this REAL islam, then sattar bhai should immediately revert to Hinduism (Where he would actually be welcome, being in a large company of other REAL Muslims like himself)].

Thus, the first thing that any serious outsiders must find out: Is Ahmedism (with its hot advertizing in hot suits and its even hotter arabic accents, combined with the lure of the fulfilment of core Islamic prophesies) at least treated ``officially`` as part of the great Islamic discourse within the larger Islamic world? Are the great Islamic societies of the world willing to let Ahmedis create significant institutions and build open and powerful presence within them?

If the answer is yes, then all my current reasoning about ahmedis will hold no water. It will be back to drawing board time, with sincere apologies to sattar bhai, and many questions to zeemax as to where this understanding of Islam (there is only one - no my islam or your islam) went wrong.

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Sattar bhai, in trying to understand Ahmedism, do you know anything that might help us answer the question in #362?:

Do you have any information or reference on the numbers and religious activism of Ahmedis in Muslim countries other than Pakistan? Whichi is their next biggest base?

Thanks again.

#369 by stuka

My dear Stuka, with all due respect, that interact is way off-the-mark. Let me clarify something which perhaps I have only done a thousand times before:

(1) The “problem” that “Islam” is currently encountering is not a “public relations” problem to be fixed through supplies from the lipstick factory! There are real jihadis blowing up real people! The solution is that those jihadis be disarmed (singing praises of Sufism is easier but also pointless in solving the “problem”).

(2) The people creating this “problem” are doing so from the INSIDE. There are real mullahs invoking, there are real families sending in their young as fodder and there are real political figures trying to capitalize.

For those truly concerned, perhaps it is worthwhile to deal with the “problem” inside. If one does that, what those located on the “outside” say – will cease to matter.

And if the objective is indeed to address the “problem”, perhaps a bit of “honesty” will work better. Perhaps start by examining WHY what you call “Zeemax type Islam” could become the sole version of Islam – a concern that you expressed (I doubt it personally, because I still put stock in people to put stock in common-sense).

WHY WOULD IT?

And if you answered: “because the circle of time wants it to be that way”, I doubt anybody will buy that!

There is inherent dishonesty in equating Kaal’s leg-pulling of Sattar2 with Zeemax’s deliberate promotion of a radical agenda.

``. It would be hilarious if Bin Laden turns out to a closet Hindu, who managed to get USA to go after ummah in the land of the pure. The irony would instantly kill zeemax … ``

HAHAHA...I can just imagine Zeemax clutching his heart as he collapses...

stuka,

You know better what this hinduvta politics is all about. Dealing with kaal with the first time for me, and therefore a bit messy … kinda like sex.

With nukes aplenty and fanatics vying for power on both sides … is not a comforting thought. It would be hilarious if Bin Laden turns out to a closet Hindu, who managed to get USA to go after ummah in the land of the pure. The irony would instantly kill zeemax …

``I have been stunned by lack of coherence of our rambling philosopher (kaal miaN) and his unwarranted mudslinging.
``

Sattar: Actually, Kaal is very coherent. Its just that you are used to fighting self described fundamentalists within Islam and were not intellectually prepared for a flanking attack.

#various Sattar2,

Sattar2 sahib, I read some of your posts on this board. I think those are well intentioned and you should be praised for trying to bring about harmony to this alway-fighting web-site. I don’t think the circle of time should try to rile you up (with the apparent complicity of others)!

(If I see him, I promise to look for a stick to beat him up with.)

(Meanwhile, you should refuse to fall for his ruse and stop asking him to do physical acts which are anatomically impossible. Your clearly keen sense of humor - exhibited to Hamidm2, works much better instead.)

There is always a wide gap in the way any religion is “supposed to be” versus the way it is actually practiced (most often, in the laziest possible way – consistent with the First Law of human nature!) – a wider gap than most people are willing to admit – especially those who profess to be its most ardent admirers!


#Zee max
Earlier, I should not have called you VG, nor “Zee-kambakhat”! I apologize.
(Perhaps the term “Veggie” would be appropriate, though!)

stuka,

Those are astute observations. I have been stunned by lack of coherence of our rambling philosopher (kaal miaN) and his unwarranted mudslinging.

I have seen such behavior from urstruly, echo, zee … diehard, faithful Muslims; but perhaps never from a non-Muslim with little knowledge of Islam and no conceivable interest in it. So you may on to something for all I know …

Muhammad (pbuh) is now gone. But zeemax, Urstruly are around and claim to be acting on his behalf, while supporting suicide bombings. So pardon me if I refuse to get too close to them. But I did tell kaal exactly what you suggested. Although bj thinks it is physically impossible ... we`ll see ...

bjkumar,

I think HP’s assessment has at least some validity, in that Ahmadis are a fairly educated middle-class group, with access to economic opportunities. They are not ghettoized, as bulk of Pakistani population does not have issues with Ahmadis.

This assessment holds more true in larger cities, than it does in small villages. Village politics is more influenced by local mullahs, who are more likely to use Ahmadi issue as a ploy to exercise local influence (post #352 from harish gives a relevant example).

Only a small percentage of Ahmadis have suffered violent persecution; mostly in rural areas. Therein lies the dilemma - that of placing this persecution in its proper context.

A minor 0.001% chemical imbalance in a person’s body can give rise to severe headaches. Great majority of Palestinians are not suicide bombers, but suicide bombings there continue to influence people’s perceptions all over the world.

Hence, a small number, when placed in proper context, may seem larger than it did in its raw form.

In a way Ahmadi issue is not an issue at all; they are a small community and may disappear overnight without anyone noticing they are gone. This issue however involves Pakistan at large. It represents direction in which Pakistani politics is heading, with religious right looking to exercise more influence, and at times getting away with blatant gunda gardi. If this keeps up, Pakistan may risk drifting slowly into its own version of “dark ages”.

When seen from this viewpoint, Ahmadi persecution raises some disturbing issues involving greater Pakistan. And this is one of the key points lost in the Muslim/non-Muslim debate ... which again, serves the purpose of religious right.

Kaalchakra is the ultimate Hindu fanatic; his aim is to tear down anything soft about Islam (be it Sufism or the goodu ggody nature of Sattar) and make it reductive as a stark ``other`` to something like Hinduism. The more Zeemax type Islam becomes the mainstream (and ultimately sole) version of Islam, the more it becomes the polar opposite of Hinduism. Hence, the lines are drawn and opposition to the other becomes easier. Kaal realizes that the true seductive power of Islam was not the Islam of the Sword but the Islam of the Sufis. And once the Sufi seduced the non-believer in to the fold of Islam, it did not take long for the Wahabbi impact to seep in to the mindset. Whereas Islam of the Sword is easy to objectify and oppose, Sufi Islam is harder to concieve as the ``other``. Only thing is that leads to Zeemax taking Kaal`s adjectives as compliments and Sattar is left claiming to be Muslim and not realizing that his vision of Islam is anti-thetical to the bucket that Kaal has already put his Islam in.

What I don`t understand is why Sattar even gives power to a Kaffir to define Islam to begin with. Was Mohammad the left testicle of Kaalchakra or the right one of Zeemax that they have the power to define Islam. One is a Kaffir and the other a Taqfeeri, both should be told to fukk off.

#various Sattar

Dear Sattar2,

Some of the concluding acts that you are asking the circle of time to conduct are physical impossibilities!

#360 HP

HP my dear, that was a good response! Most unexpected from you, I would have added, except for the fleeting suspicion that you actually wrote this one while you were actually sober! :)

Is it fair to say that the situation of the Ahmedis in Pakistan is analogous to that of the Sikhs in India - with the obvious difference that the Sikhs in India are looking to be treated as a distinct group from the mainstream Hindus whereas the Ahmedis (perhaps out of fear of persecution) wish to be lumped with the mainstream (Sunnis)?