Feroz R Khan March 19, 2007
#26 Posted by masadi on March 20, 2007 10:25:24 pm
arjun writes <<< So sez the guy who was rejected for teaching in the land of the pure...and we all know what high standards(cough cough) they have there... >>>
Fool, you don`t have a clue about what you write. Nobody rejected me, I still teach at one of the largest public universities in the country. An MBA school, and there are dozens that have cropped up decided they didn`t need a sociologist to muddy the ``beautiful`` picture of America they were presenting to their students as they prepare them for peonship of the West...
Bulleya is correct, the top leadership of the Pak Army is firmly in the grip of the US. The divergent factions exist at lower levels and are easily defeated. Bulleya is wrong that the army has retreated faced by the lawyers and the press, the army has not retreated, it has stood down...
Fool, you don`t have a clue about what you write. Nobody rejected me, I still teach at one of the largest public universities in the country. An MBA school, and there are dozens that have cropped up decided they didn`t need a sociologist to muddy the ``beautiful`` picture of America they were presenting to their students as they prepare them for peonship of the West...
Bulleya is correct, the top leadership of the Pak Army is firmly in the grip of the US. The divergent factions exist at lower levels and are easily defeated. Bulleya is wrong that the army has retreated faced by the lawyers and the press, the army has not retreated, it has stood down...
#25 Posted by fuzair on March 20, 2007 7:12:32 pm
#9 HP Sain-munjho,
We`ve had our pronounced differences in the past and I don`t want to start that again; asking a genuine question. If, as you say, CJ Sajjad was doing the Army`s bidding in moving against Nawaz Sharif, why did Karamat refuse to provide him with security against the goondas of the PML? Didn`t he ask for protection, which the Army refused?
In keeping with your thesis, which I admit is the most interesting take on the situation I`ve seen so far, which element in the Army was trying to stage the palace-coup? Presumably the pro-US faction?
We`ve had our pronounced differences in the past and I don`t want to start that again; asking a genuine question. If, as you say, CJ Sajjad was doing the Army`s bidding in moving against Nawaz Sharif, why did Karamat refuse to provide him with security against the goondas of the PML? Didn`t he ask for protection, which the Army refused?
In keeping with your thesis, which I admit is the most interesting take on the situation I`ve seen so far, which element in the Army was trying to stage the palace-coup? Presumably the pro-US faction?
#24 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on March 20, 2007 9:27:32 am
Maybe it`s time to ditch Mushy. Let a really powerful ``Sher da Puttar`` Pakistani Punjaibi Paindoo dictator, like Zia Ul Haque, take over. Mushy is too wishy washy and soft on the vandals roaming the streets, shitting bricks, and destroying property - the fact that the miscreants are mostly lawyers makes it worse.
Had Mushy thrown a necktie party for the PPP ``democratically-elected`` ex-PM Nawaz Besharif, like Zia did to ZAB, everyone would get in line. I am disgusted with Mushy.
Had Mushy thrown a necktie party for the PPP ``democratically-elected`` ex-PM Nawaz Besharif, like Zia did to ZAB, everyone would get in line. I am disgusted with Mushy.
#23 Posted by ferozk on March 20, 2007 9:25:58 am
Re: HP # 9
HP, thanks for a detailed and thoughtful post.
I agree with you that CJP is a political post, but that does not make it correct. The CJP post should be apolitical and in the past, justices were not aligned with any political group. The mess started when the judiciary allowed the other branches to overstep into the judicial affairs. HP, I remember from my own experience that that 30 years ago, judges in Pakistan were not even allowed a telephone line lest they came into contact with the outside world.
The question is not about the variety of judicial activism, but the manner in which to deal with it. By the same token, we can also blame the executive for its own version of activism.
Is it judicial activism or the fact that the CJP`s actions were attempting to hold the government responsible that might be the cause of the offical ire against him?
As to suo motto cases, most of the landmark cases of CJP were petitioned such as the Steel Mills case or the Gwadar landscam.
Agreed; Musharraf adminisration made a bad decision in how to deal with the issues and it was the government and not the lawyers who made the issue into a political one.
HP, the point that is that it may be a political issue, but the manner in which it is being debated is constitutional and that is because the legal profession wants to take this case and create a legal precedent in Pakistani constitutional law that finally secure the judiciary`s indenpendence from the executive.
As I have said before, the personality of the CJP does not matter or his past actions in supporting the government. The fact is that lawyers are using this crisis to establish a constitutional point. The question is about the legality of the reference and not about the reference itself.
I fully agree with you that in Pakistan, it has always been the proteges who have undone their mentors and the downfalls have always started from internal reasons and rarely from outside reasons.
I did not miss the attack on GEO; just did not include it in this essay. :)
Ciao
HP, thanks for a detailed and thoughtful post.
I agree with you that CJP is a political post, but that does not make it correct. The CJP post should be apolitical and in the past, justices were not aligned with any political group. The mess started when the judiciary allowed the other branches to overstep into the judicial affairs. HP, I remember from my own experience that that 30 years ago, judges in Pakistan were not even allowed a telephone line lest they came into contact with the outside world.
The question is not about the variety of judicial activism, but the manner in which to deal with it. By the same token, we can also blame the executive for its own version of activism.
Is it judicial activism or the fact that the CJP`s actions were attempting to hold the government responsible that might be the cause of the offical ire against him?
As to suo motto cases, most of the landmark cases of CJP were petitioned such as the Steel Mills case or the Gwadar landscam.
Agreed; Musharraf adminisration made a bad decision in how to deal with the issues and it was the government and not the lawyers who made the issue into a political one.
HP, the point that is that it may be a political issue, but the manner in which it is being debated is constitutional and that is because the legal profession wants to take this case and create a legal precedent in Pakistani constitutional law that finally secure the judiciary`s indenpendence from the executive.
As I have said before, the personality of the CJP does not matter or his past actions in supporting the government. The fact is that lawyers are using this crisis to establish a constitutional point. The question is about the legality of the reference and not about the reference itself.
I fully agree with you that in Pakistan, it has always been the proteges who have undone their mentors and the downfalls have always started from internal reasons and rarely from outside reasons.
I did not miss the attack on GEO; just did not include it in this essay. :)
Ciao
#22 Posted by ejazharoon on March 20, 2007 9:17:11 am
A pox on the Paki military. Its a shame our tax dollars perpetuate its hold on power.
#21 Posted by ferozk on March 20, 2007 9:02:28 am
Re: Mantolives # 14
Yasser, there is always a revolution within a revolution and the radicals/extermists will always try to hijack a revolution. From the time of Jacobins to Iran in 1979, it has happened. PPP shying away from an alliance with MMA is that PPP does not share the same philosophical vision that MMA has and it should not imply that PPP is secular because it is not; it has done enough in the past to pander to the mullahs and has played the religious card when it suited it.
I agree with you, but I also think that we are still not at a critical mass. I think that the forces unleashed by Musharraf - free media, economic liberalization, social changes vis-a-vis the women`s rights - have developed an interest of their own and might be difficult to roll-back as the government learned in the example of the botched putsch on GEO offices. It is early, but there are clear signs of a momentum even though it is confused and at times seems contradictory.
Incidently, another interesting and encouraging sign is that debate is more pronounced in the lower middle classes than it is in the middle or even the upper middle classes. This is the group that will attain critical mass and not our ``chowk group`` because our group is a status quo group.
Ciao
Yasser, there is always a revolution within a revolution and the radicals/extermists will always try to hijack a revolution. From the time of Jacobins to Iran in 1979, it has happened. PPP shying away from an alliance with MMA is that PPP does not share the same philosophical vision that MMA has and it should not imply that PPP is secular because it is not; it has done enough in the past to pander to the mullahs and has played the religious card when it suited it.
I agree with you, but I also think that we are still not at a critical mass. I think that the forces unleashed by Musharraf - free media, economic liberalization, social changes vis-a-vis the women`s rights - have developed an interest of their own and might be difficult to roll-back as the government learned in the example of the botched putsch on GEO offices. It is early, but there are clear signs of a momentum even though it is confused and at times seems contradictory.
Incidently, another interesting and encouraging sign is that debate is more pronounced in the lower middle classes than it is in the middle or even the upper middle classes. This is the group that will attain critical mass and not our ``chowk group`` because our group is a status quo group.
Ciao
#20 Posted by ferozk on March 20, 2007 8:51:26 am
Re: # 19
Interesting observations. Unity is the key but politicans in Pakistan cannot unify at the cost of their personal interests. Sadly, it is the over importance of the personal interest over a principle that has always led Pakistani to a disaster.
Ciao
Interesting observations. Unity is the key but politicans in Pakistan cannot unify at the cost of their personal interests. Sadly, it is the over importance of the personal interest over a principle that has always led Pakistani to a disaster.
Ciao
#19 Posted by bulleya on March 20, 2007 8:34:30 am
I have always stated the reason the mlitary is able to dominate the civil side, is not because of guns and its large size.....It is because its leadership remains united to its institution.......It never breaks up......In addition, it has internal traditions, which take precedence over everything else........
Quite a few civilians have tried to breakup the military........All have been unsucessful......Nawaz tried it against Musharraf and lost his job......When Musharraf was appointed COAS, an hour later Gen Ali Kuli (who was senior to him) resigned, as per tradition......
I have also always stated that if any civilian institution shows similar unity it will be able to dominate the military.....However, none has been able to do so........Due to which the military has conveniently broken them up and played one against the other........
That was, until now.......For the first time, I have seen two civilian groups fully internally united......The legal community and the press (sidenote: I have also always stated that these two are the only groups in Pakistan with some backbone)........They have not allowed themselves to be broken.........And look at the result.........The military, who everyone assumed ruled because it had guns, has retreated so fast, at the face of a few hundred journalists and a few thousand lawyers, it is hard to keep up with it......
.........Now the next phase is the bench, i.e. judiciary portion of the legal profession.....Judges are always very weak in keeping unity in their ranks...However, if they learn from the bar, and support the CJ, then Musharraf is finished......He will be hugely weakened.......
Unfortunately, the politicians are divided again......They must be the most opportunistic group around, with far too many skeletons in their closets.......PPP, primarily due to BB is not participating........Neither is MQM.......This is despite the fact, that PPP and MQM are the two parties which have always faced the brunt of miltiary rule (though MQM has joined the military this time).........BB wants the cases dropped against her, and has quickly ditched Nawaz Sharif sensing she can get back into power.......
There is something the politiicans need to learn.........First and foremost in any battle, one must shift the battle into one`s own arena.........into one`s own backyard, so to speak........in this case, from a military domain to a political domain......Only afterwards, should one fight one`s internal battles.........The army has maulvi generals, secular generals, generals who drink and generals who pray six times a day......However, when their institution is threatened, they unite........They don`t divide into secular or religious groups.........They first win the confrontation and then divide up.........I am sure journalists and lawyers have similar groups, however, they have stuck together......
Politicians need to do the same.........However, they are allowing the govt. to play the secular/religious card and divide them........They, should, firstly forget their differences........All of them, together, should take on the govt., regardless of secular or religious tendencies of political parties......Once the military is out, then they should fight out their internal ideological battles..........But firstly they need to, in a united fashion, move the fight into their political domain.........They will not be able to do so, if they continue to let the military dictate whether Pakistan should have a secular or religious govt, and who should be in power........
Its pretty simple......Quite easy to deal with the miltiary, if unity is maintained, as I have always stated.......And politicians are far more powerful than lawyers and journalists - provided politicians remain united........
Quite a few civilians have tried to breakup the military........All have been unsucessful......Nawaz tried it against Musharraf and lost his job......When Musharraf was appointed COAS, an hour later Gen Ali Kuli (who was senior to him) resigned, as per tradition......
I have also always stated that if any civilian institution shows similar unity it will be able to dominate the military.....However, none has been able to do so........Due to which the military has conveniently broken them up and played one against the other........
That was, until now.......For the first time, I have seen two civilian groups fully internally united......The legal community and the press (sidenote: I have also always stated that these two are the only groups in Pakistan with some backbone)........They have not allowed themselves to be broken.........And look at the result.........The military, who everyone assumed ruled because it had guns, has retreated so fast, at the face of a few hundred journalists and a few thousand lawyers, it is hard to keep up with it......
.........Now the next phase is the bench, i.e. judiciary portion of the legal profession.....Judges are always very weak in keeping unity in their ranks...However, if they learn from the bar, and support the CJ, then Musharraf is finished......He will be hugely weakened.......
Unfortunately, the politicians are divided again......They must be the most opportunistic group around, with far too many skeletons in their closets.......PPP, primarily due to BB is not participating........Neither is MQM.......This is despite the fact, that PPP and MQM are the two parties which have always faced the brunt of miltiary rule (though MQM has joined the military this time).........BB wants the cases dropped against her, and has quickly ditched Nawaz Sharif sensing she can get back into power.......
There is something the politiicans need to learn.........First and foremost in any battle, one must shift the battle into one`s own arena.........into one`s own backyard, so to speak........in this case, from a military domain to a political domain......Only afterwards, should one fight one`s internal battles.........The army has maulvi generals, secular generals, generals who drink and generals who pray six times a day......However, when their institution is threatened, they unite........They don`t divide into secular or religious groups.........They first win the confrontation and then divide up.........I am sure journalists and lawyers have similar groups, however, they have stuck together......
Politicians need to do the same.........However, they are allowing the govt. to play the secular/religious card and divide them........They, should, firstly forget their differences........All of them, together, should take on the govt., regardless of secular or religious tendencies of political parties......Once the military is out, then they should fight out their internal ideological battles..........But firstly they need to, in a united fashion, move the fight into their political domain.........They will not be able to do so, if they continue to let the military dictate whether Pakistan should have a secular or religious govt, and who should be in power........
Its pretty simple......Quite easy to deal with the miltiary, if unity is maintained, as I have always stated.......And politicians are far more powerful than lawyers and journalists - provided politicians remain united........
#18 Posted by arjun2 on March 20, 2007 7:36:53 am
#13 by masadi on March 20, 2007 1:26am PT
with sprinklings of worship of Western names and all things Western
So sez the guy who was rejected for teaching in the land of the pure...and we all know what high standards(cough cough) they have there...
when`re you getting back to publishing on lulu.com?
with sprinklings of worship of Western names and all things Western
So sez the guy who was rejected for teaching in the land of the pure...and we all know what high standards(cough cough) they have there...
when`re you getting back to publishing on lulu.com?
#17 Posted by MantoLives on March 20, 2007 7:20:30 am
``A VERY GRATEFUL PAKISTANI NATION SALUTES ITS JUDGES WHO RESIGNED AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE:
Judge Rajesh Chandar Rajput - First Civil Judge-Sukkur
Judge Ashraf Yar - First Civil Judge - Karachi
Judge Pir Asad Rashdi - Fourth Civil Judge - Central
Judge Mustafa Safwan - senior Civil Judge
Judge Allah Bachaio Gabol - senior Civil Judge
Justice Jawad S Khawaja - Lahore High Court ``
DITTO
#16 Posted by Urstruly on March 20, 2007 7:15:10 am
A VERY GRATEFUL PAKISTANI NATION SALUTES ITS JUDGES WHO RESIGNED AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE:
Judge Rajesh Chandar Rajput - First Civil Judge-Sukkur
Judge Ashraf Yar - First Civil Judge - Karachi
Judge Pir Asad Rashdi - Fourth Civil Judge - Central
Judge Mustafa Safwan - senior Civil Judge
Judge Allah Bachaio Gabol - senior Civil Judge
Justice Jawad Owais Khawaja - Lahore High Court
On behalf of a very grateful nation - THANK YOU.
#15 Posted by Urstruly on March 20, 2007 6:59:19 am
``The people who are alleged to be missing, have disappeared on their own. My government does not make people disappear``........ Says Pakistani Dictator
Meanwhile, political activist Khawaja Khalid, who was pursuing the case for the recovery of thousands of ``disappeared`` citizens, was again put in jail, incommunicado, under the anti-terrorism law:

Meanwhile, just about when dictator was excreting his droppings as quoted above, a pediatrition named Dr. Amanullah was made to ``disappear`` in Attock city.
#14 Posted by MantoLives on March 20, 2007 4:57:29 am
Ferozk,
A very good article which is properly backed up. I can understand why some have grown weary of your usage of Marbury v. Madison 1803... any discourse not colored with verses of the Holy Quran seems to lose focus for some here...
The problem is that too many people are looking to see whether Musharraf will stay or go as the definitive marker of whether this revolution is successful or not. Musharraf`s regime and its end may well be decided elsewhere... but this is actually a matter that will have a long lasting impact on Pakistani polity and you are probably the only commentator who has expressed this. Whatever happens... and my guess is that Musharraf will retreat and things will go back to normal for the time being... judiciary has already become independent in my view. Jawad S Khawaja resigned ... needless to say whoever the ruler ... military or civilian... it might not be easy now to go after the Supreme Court...
Also... it kind of reminds me of what Saima Shah said in one of her articles a few months ago... when she predicted that Pakistan was ripe for democracy. In a way, the Punjab-dominated Pakistan has finally evolved to that critical mass where the right amount of bourgeoisie and the right amount of middle class has thrown up enough educated people who no longer want arbitrary military rule....
You are the on the dot about the secular nature of this debate. A word of caution though... when revolutions reach that important phase, we`ve learnt from Iran, populace also becomes susceptible to be hijacked by reactionary extremist forces... this is precisely why I was extremely happy to read Benazir`s statement in which she vowed to continue the protest but keep MMA out of it...
-YLH
A very good article which is properly backed up. I can understand why some have grown weary of your usage of Marbury v. Madison 1803... any discourse not colored with verses of the Holy Quran seems to lose focus for some here...
The problem is that too many people are looking to see whether Musharraf will stay or go as the definitive marker of whether this revolution is successful or not. Musharraf`s regime and its end may well be decided elsewhere... but this is actually a matter that will have a long lasting impact on Pakistani polity and you are probably the only commentator who has expressed this. Whatever happens... and my guess is that Musharraf will retreat and things will go back to normal for the time being... judiciary has already become independent in my view. Jawad S Khawaja resigned ... needless to say whoever the ruler ... military or civilian... it might not be easy now to go after the Supreme Court...
Also... it kind of reminds me of what Saima Shah said in one of her articles a few months ago... when she predicted that Pakistan was ripe for democracy. In a way, the Punjab-dominated Pakistan has finally evolved to that critical mass where the right amount of bourgeoisie and the right amount of middle class has thrown up enough educated people who no longer want arbitrary military rule....
You are the on the dot about the secular nature of this debate. A word of caution though... when revolutions reach that important phase, we`ve learnt from Iran, populace also becomes susceptible to be hijacked by reactionary extremist forces... this is precisely why I was extremely happy to read Benazir`s statement in which she vowed to continue the protest but keep MMA out of it...
-YLH
#13 Posted by masadi on March 20, 2007 1:26:25 am
Feroz writes <<< However, the real reason behind the separation of powers, be it in the American constitution or any other constitution including Pakistan’s, is not to balance power as much as facilitate a sense of political compromises between the three branches of government. >>>
Extreme naivety from a political illiterate. There can be a thousand division in the government that by definition can be said to encourage compromise but when only ONE class and one group of a particular social type fills all sections that ``compromise``, then it is already a case-closed before any discussion begins.
What is completely missing from this analysis, which is quite superficial (with sprinklings of worship of Western names and all things Western as is the case with all FR Khan articles) is the fact that the public at large was largely disconnected and missing from this ``struggle``. How that can then be construed as a victory for constitutionalism or democracy is nonsense. It was a power struggle, and as HP correctly points out, in no power struggle can you ignore the role of the Pakistan Army. Where I disagree with HP regarding the factions of the army is that in my opinion this was also the American dominated group, which is much larger than Musharraf and their plan was not the overthrow of the goverment. That could have been achieved by other means and blamed on the Talibans.
Once the Americans grow weary of one of their slaves, they usually send him various signs to bring him back in line, this was just one of those signs.
Extreme naivety from a political illiterate. There can be a thousand division in the government that by definition can be said to encourage compromise but when only ONE class and one group of a particular social type fills all sections that ``compromise``, then it is already a case-closed before any discussion begins.
What is completely missing from this analysis, which is quite superficial (with sprinklings of worship of Western names and all things Western as is the case with all FR Khan articles) is the fact that the public at large was largely disconnected and missing from this ``struggle``. How that can then be construed as a victory for constitutionalism or democracy is nonsense. It was a power struggle, and as HP correctly points out, in no power struggle can you ignore the role of the Pakistan Army. Where I disagree with HP regarding the factions of the army is that in my opinion this was also the American dominated group, which is much larger than Musharraf and their plan was not the overthrow of the goverment. That could have been achieved by other means and blamed on the Talibans.
Once the Americans grow weary of one of their slaves, they usually send him various signs to bring him back in line, this was just one of those signs.
#12 Posted by ferozk on March 19, 2007 11:23:16 pm
Re: ballukhan # 8
Good points!
However, you must remember that the over reliance on Islamic interpretation in Pakistani politics and constitutionalism is only 30 years old and before that, despite the Islamic preamblic nature of the constitutions, the country maintained a separation between the theocractic and secular issues.
Ciao
Good points!
However, you must remember that the over reliance on Islamic interpretation in Pakistani politics and constitutionalism is only 30 years old and before that, despite the Islamic preamblic nature of the constitutions, the country maintained a separation between the theocractic and secular issues.
Ciao
#11 Posted by ferozk on March 19, 2007 11:19:05 pm
Re: bjkumar # 10
Your point # 2 may be valid, but in this case there is a geninue sense of public empathy with the cause of justice in the present crisis and not with the personality. The personality of the chief justice is accidential and even if an understanding is reached, it does not mean that the legal community will stop their protests. The main argument being made, in the legal profession, is for the lawyers and the judges to unite as one against the government.
Your assessment of an understanding between the judiciary and the executive is reasonable, but bear in mind that the lawyers in Pakistan had never supported Musharraf and if the justices go ahead, with a rapprochement, it will divide the legal community in Pakistan over the issue. There is an internal debate talking place in the Pakistani legal community and once that is settled, we will see what the next steps will be in the future.
This is the begining of a process and as a process, it will take its own time to gel into a clearly defined argument and thus, we should not be expectant of instant results or resolutions to the crisis simply on the basis of past experience.
Point # 3 fails in the sense that judiciary did, in reality, help the process by which the executive-military did garner power. As mentioned, it is not the question of what happened in the past, but what will happen tomorrow that is prompting the legal response. Then is there is the issue of a public image dimension to the crisis and through it, the judiciary wants to regain the lost public trust in it as an institution. In the present situation, though the past is good indicator, events suggests that it will not be entirely abided with because no matter what happens, the executive did over reach itself in the crisis and it was stopped from its fiat by another branch of the government on a constitutional basis. Yes, in the past the military got away with its ingresses, but this time it did not and that has made the difference.
The context is that though the military-executive might still be powerful, it has been forced to compromise and the crisis will end in a political-legal compromise and it is the nature of the compromise that will slowly strengthen the idea of separation of powers. The hope is that the present crisis will not necessarily result in the loss of military-executive power but in the arrangement of a balance of power, between the three branches, that would gradually evolve a constitutional separation of powers in Pakistan.
Separation of power does not mean an equality of power but it implies a constitutionally accepted ``inequality of power``. In this case, a debate is fermenting in Pakistan in which the constitution is the fulcrum and has not been sided lined from the start. This is a difference.
Point # 4 is well reasoned and that is why, we cannot predict with certainity what the final outcome might be because the nature of debate is still being decided. Everything hinges on the framing of the arguments; if it is kept to a constitutional limit and the politicans are not allowed to politically dominate the arguments and thus, distract from the main constitutional points, then it will not fizzle out.
The government would love to see politics dominate, because than it would be in a better position to counter-arguments and discredit them, but as things are at the present; the government has no constitutional case. This is why the legality of the reference is more important than the charges and if the arguments are made on the legality of the reference, then the government will have a hard time to justify its actions.
The legal understanding of the issues is that president, has the right to file a reference under Article 209 of the 1973 Constitution, but to the Supreme Judicial Council which then files the reference against the individual itself through an ``in-house proceedings``.
In this case, and what the laywers are complaining is not the right of the president under Article 209 of the constitution, but that that Supreme Judicial Council did not file the reference, but was given the reference. The procedure is that the judiciary and not the executive asks the individual to step down, but it does not mean that person becomes non-functional.
The chief justice of Pakistan, despite the filing of the reference is still the chief justice of Pakistan, but since the reference has been filed against him, it means that he cannot preside over his own triall. It was for this reason that an acting chief justice was nominated and that too, the third most senior, because Rana Bhgwandas, the senior most judge, was out of the nation. Once Bhgwandas returns, he would become the acting chief justice of Pakistan and preside over the case.
Acting chief justice does not mean a replacement of the chief justice in a judicial sense, but in an administrative sense so that the there is a head of the Supreme Court to oversee its functioning and still maintain its heirarchical organization. The word ``acting`` implies a transitory post and not a permanent one.
Point # 5 does not account for the fact that in a crisis situation, it is not the time factor but the ability manage a crisis that make the difference. The military-executive can have all the time in the world and they will be successful if they can manage the crisis and influence and even control the flow of events and if they cannot, then all the time in the world will not help them.
Point # 6 assumes that the mindset has not changed, but the act of resisting when appeasement would have been the norm, does suggest a shift in the mindset.
Point # 7 is a very realistic question when and where power politics are concerned. As said before, it is not the number of divisions but their ability manage the situation that will be the critical nuance.
Point # 1 does not even apply in Britain or the United States let alone in Pakistan! lol
Ciao
Your point # 2 may be valid, but in this case there is a geninue sense of public empathy with the cause of justice in the present crisis and not with the personality. The personality of the chief justice is accidential and even if an understanding is reached, it does not mean that the legal community will stop their protests. The main argument being made, in the legal profession, is for the lawyers and the judges to unite as one against the government.
Your assessment of an understanding between the judiciary and the executive is reasonable, but bear in mind that the lawyers in Pakistan had never supported Musharraf and if the justices go ahead, with a rapprochement, it will divide the legal community in Pakistan over the issue. There is an internal debate talking place in the Pakistani legal community and once that is settled, we will see what the next steps will be in the future.
This is the begining of a process and as a process, it will take its own time to gel into a clearly defined argument and thus, we should not be expectant of instant results or resolutions to the crisis simply on the basis of past experience.
Point # 3 fails in the sense that judiciary did, in reality, help the process by which the executive-military did garner power. As mentioned, it is not the question of what happened in the past, but what will happen tomorrow that is prompting the legal response. Then is there is the issue of a public image dimension to the crisis and through it, the judiciary wants to regain the lost public trust in it as an institution. In the present situation, though the past is good indicator, events suggests that it will not be entirely abided with because no matter what happens, the executive did over reach itself in the crisis and it was stopped from its fiat by another branch of the government on a constitutional basis. Yes, in the past the military got away with its ingresses, but this time it did not and that has made the difference.
The context is that though the military-executive might still be powerful, it has been forced to compromise and the crisis will end in a political-legal compromise and it is the nature of the compromise that will slowly strengthen the idea of separation of powers. The hope is that the present crisis will not necessarily result in the loss of military-executive power but in the arrangement of a balance of power, between the three branches, that would gradually evolve a constitutional separation of powers in Pakistan.
Separation of power does not mean an equality of power but it implies a constitutionally accepted ``inequality of power``. In this case, a debate is fermenting in Pakistan in which the constitution is the fulcrum and has not been sided lined from the start. This is a difference.
Point # 4 is well reasoned and that is why, we cannot predict with certainity what the final outcome might be because the nature of debate is still being decided. Everything hinges on the framing of the arguments; if it is kept to a constitutional limit and the politicans are not allowed to politically dominate the arguments and thus, distract from the main constitutional points, then it will not fizzle out.
The government would love to see politics dominate, because than it would be in a better position to counter-arguments and discredit them, but as things are at the present; the government has no constitutional case. This is why the legality of the reference is more important than the charges and if the arguments are made on the legality of the reference, then the government will have a hard time to justify its actions.
The legal understanding of the issues is that president, has the right to file a reference under Article 209 of the 1973 Constitution, but to the Supreme Judicial Council which then files the reference against the individual itself through an ``in-house proceedings``.
In this case, and what the laywers are complaining is not the right of the president under Article 209 of the constitution, but that that Supreme Judicial Council did not file the reference, but was given the reference. The procedure is that the judiciary and not the executive asks the individual to step down, but it does not mean that person becomes non-functional.
The chief justice of Pakistan, despite the filing of the reference is still the chief justice of Pakistan, but since the reference has been filed against him, it means that he cannot preside over his own triall. It was for this reason that an acting chief justice was nominated and that too, the third most senior, because Rana Bhgwandas, the senior most judge, was out of the nation. Once Bhgwandas returns, he would become the acting chief justice of Pakistan and preside over the case.
Acting chief justice does not mean a replacement of the chief justice in a judicial sense, but in an administrative sense so that the there is a head of the Supreme Court to oversee its functioning and still maintain its heirarchical organization. The word ``acting`` implies a transitory post and not a permanent one.
Point # 5 does not account for the fact that in a crisis situation, it is not the time factor but the ability manage a crisis that make the difference. The military-executive can have all the time in the world and they will be successful if they can manage the crisis and influence and even control the flow of events and if they cannot, then all the time in the world will not help them.
Point # 6 assumes that the mindset has not changed, but the act of resisting when appeasement would have been the norm, does suggest a shift in the mindset.
Point # 7 is a very realistic question when and where power politics are concerned. As said before, it is not the number of divisions but their ability manage the situation that will be the critical nuance.
Point # 1 does not even apply in Britain or the United States let alone in Pakistan! lol
Ciao
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