The Day We Killed Bob Woolmer
Zarrar Said March 19, 2007
#161 Posted by bhairav on March 22, 2007 9:55:49 am
RE - # 148 and # 149 masadi
http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=NjIzNzQ0MDk5
Slavery `still exists` in Mauritania
Published Date: March 22, 2007
NOUAKCHOTT: They do not wear chains, nor are they branded with the mark of their masters, but slaves still exist in Mauritania. In the Saharan Islamic state, a centuries-old system of bondage is resisting the rise of democracy in the largely desert former French colony. Herding camels or goats out in the sun-blasted dunes of the Sahara, or serving hot mint tea to guests in the richly carpeted villas of Nouakchott, Mauritanian slaves serve their masters and are passed on as family chattels from generation to generation. They may number thousands, anti-slavery activists say. A shocking anomaly in the 21st century, this is widely accepted in a racially diverse, hierarchical society dominated by a Moorish elite and a brand of Islam that preaches submission. ``It`s like having sheep or goats. If a woman is a slave, her descendants are slaves,`` said Boubacar Messaoud, who was born a slave and is now his country`s leading anti-slavery campaigner.
He says a 1981 decree outlawing slavery is a dead letter and slavery is alive in Mauritania, with all its manifestations of non-paid work, punishment, forced sex and other abuses. Mauritania`s military rulers, who are handing over to civilian rule in democratic elections, shy away from discussing the issue and prefer to talk of ``vestiges of slavery``. Some members of the light-skinned elite which has traditionally ruled the country deny slavery exists at all. Questions about it can draw anger, mistrust and silence. But anti-slavery campaigners say the master-slave relationship and its social repercussions are branded into the minds of all Mauritanians, just as class-consciousness still haunts social discourse in Britain and other European states. ``There is slavery in our country, in all of our society. You need laws to eliminate it. The fact people try to hide what exists just complicates things,`` said Messaoud Ould Boulkheir, a black Mauritanian and descendant of slaves. ``It doesn`t have to have chains to be there,`` added Boulkheir, who ran for the presidency in an election this month, finishing fourth out of 19 candidates.
`Born a slave`
In Nouakchott`s sprawling, dirt-poor slums, most of whose inhabitants are black, the testimonies about enduring slavery are repeated, and heartfelt. ``Yes, it`s true,`` said Abdarahman Ould Mohamed Abd, 52, a street vendor sitting outside his ramshackle hut. ``In the interior of the country, it`s the worst. You see it in the way some people treat others. Sometimes, they (the masters) have even killed children,`` he added. His own surname means ``son of Mohamed Slave`` as ``Abd`` is the Arabic word for slave. ``It comes from a long way back. But it should end,`` he said. Anti-slavery groups, such as SOS-Slaves run by Messaoud, say the fear and secrecy cloaking the issue make it difficult to bring cases of slavery to light, let alone to court. But victims periodically surface, such as Matalla, a black Mauritanian who two years ago escaped from members of a Berber warrior tribe, the Reguibat. They were holding him and his family in the isolated deserts of northeast Mauritania. ``I was born a slave. All my family, all my ancestors were slaves of that group.
My aunt, my brothers are still slaves with them,`` he said with lowered gaze. He told Reuters he herded camels for his masters, ate only leftovers from their table and suffered occasional beatings. ``I have a scar here,`` he said, pointing to his right cheekbone, ``from where they hit me with a stick``. Asked how many slaves his masters had he answered: ``There are more than can be counted``. Anti-slavery activists say it is impossible to tell how many people remain enslaved in Mauritania, a mineral-rich country twice the size of France whose 3 million population mixes white and black Moors and black Mauritanians of several ethnic groups. Diplomats in Nouakchott say the outgoing junta declined an offer from the European Union to fund an investigative study. ``It`s probably fairly widespread. In the houses of the Moors, you see young black boys serving tea. I don`t know what their work contracts are but I would not like to have theirs,`` said one diplomat, who asked not to be named. He said Mauritania`s new president, to be elected in a March 25 run-off between two white Moor frontrunners, would have to tackle slavery and enduring social and racial inequality: ``It`s at the heart of this country`s imbalances.`` Historians say slavery developed in Mauritania from the 7th century, when Arab invaders pushed south into Sub-Saharan Africa, bringing their Islamic religion which explicitly allowed the enslavement of non-believers.
This blossomed into a Trans-Saharan Slave Trade that captured black Africans several centuries before the peak of the European-run Atlantic Slave Trade. Some historians argue the practice of slavery already existed in black Africa. This religious sanctioning of slavery and the establishment of Arabicised Berber ruling castes whose wealth was partially based on it-has marked Mauritanian society. ``There is a racial policy here. It`s the politics of domination,`` said Boulkheir, adding that Islamic law and succession rights guaranteed the perpetuation of slavery, passing on ownership from master to son. He said the 1981 ban ``doesn`t exist`` in practice. ``It gives the right of compensation to the master,`` he added. ``The state has never prosecuted anyone. We need a law that criminalises slavery,`` Messaoud said. The activists said they had asked the outgoing junta head, Col Ely Ould Mohamed Vall, to include a prohibition of slavery in the constitution, but he rejected the idea. Slavery was so engrained in Mauritania`s society that it had even crossed racial and social barriers, they said. ``There are white slaves. There are blacks with black slaves. There are even freed slaves who have slaves,`` Boulkheir said. He said many Mauritanians remained ``slaves in their heads`` even after freedom. Asked if he forgave his former masters, Matalla shook his head: ``No they are bad people.`` - Reuters
http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=NjIzNzQ0MDk5
Slavery `still exists` in Mauritania
Published Date: March 22, 2007
NOUAKCHOTT: They do not wear chains, nor are they branded with the mark of their masters, but slaves still exist in Mauritania. In the Saharan Islamic state, a centuries-old system of bondage is resisting the rise of democracy in the largely desert former French colony. Herding camels or goats out in the sun-blasted dunes of the Sahara, or serving hot mint tea to guests in the richly carpeted villas of Nouakchott, Mauritanian slaves serve their masters and are passed on as family chattels from generation to generation. They may number thousands, anti-slavery activists say. A shocking anomaly in the 21st century, this is widely accepted in a racially diverse, hierarchical society dominated by a Moorish elite and a brand of Islam that preaches submission. ``It`s like having sheep or goats. If a woman is a slave, her descendants are slaves,`` said Boubacar Messaoud, who was born a slave and is now his country`s leading anti-slavery campaigner.
He says a 1981 decree outlawing slavery is a dead letter and slavery is alive in Mauritania, with all its manifestations of non-paid work, punishment, forced sex and other abuses. Mauritania`s military rulers, who are handing over to civilian rule in democratic elections, shy away from discussing the issue and prefer to talk of ``vestiges of slavery``. Some members of the light-skinned elite which has traditionally ruled the country deny slavery exists at all. Questions about it can draw anger, mistrust and silence. But anti-slavery campaigners say the master-slave relationship and its social repercussions are branded into the minds of all Mauritanians, just as class-consciousness still haunts social discourse in Britain and other European states. ``There is slavery in our country, in all of our society. You need laws to eliminate it. The fact people try to hide what exists just complicates things,`` said Messaoud Ould Boulkheir, a black Mauritanian and descendant of slaves. ``It doesn`t have to have chains to be there,`` added Boulkheir, who ran for the presidency in an election this month, finishing fourth out of 19 candidates.
`Born a slave`
In Nouakchott`s sprawling, dirt-poor slums, most of whose inhabitants are black, the testimonies about enduring slavery are repeated, and heartfelt. ``Yes, it`s true,`` said Abdarahman Ould Mohamed Abd, 52, a street vendor sitting outside his ramshackle hut. ``In the interior of the country, it`s the worst. You see it in the way some people treat others. Sometimes, they (the masters) have even killed children,`` he added. His own surname means ``son of Mohamed Slave`` as ``Abd`` is the Arabic word for slave. ``It comes from a long way back. But it should end,`` he said. Anti-slavery groups, such as SOS-Slaves run by Messaoud, say the fear and secrecy cloaking the issue make it difficult to bring cases of slavery to light, let alone to court. But victims periodically surface, such as Matalla, a black Mauritanian who two years ago escaped from members of a Berber warrior tribe, the Reguibat. They were holding him and his family in the isolated deserts of northeast Mauritania. ``I was born a slave. All my family, all my ancestors were slaves of that group.
My aunt, my brothers are still slaves with them,`` he said with lowered gaze. He told Reuters he herded camels for his masters, ate only leftovers from their table and suffered occasional beatings. ``I have a scar here,`` he said, pointing to his right cheekbone, ``from where they hit me with a stick``. Asked how many slaves his masters had he answered: ``There are more than can be counted``. Anti-slavery activists say it is impossible to tell how many people remain enslaved in Mauritania, a mineral-rich country twice the size of France whose 3 million population mixes white and black Moors and black Mauritanians of several ethnic groups. Diplomats in Nouakchott say the outgoing junta declined an offer from the European Union to fund an investigative study. ``It`s probably fairly widespread. In the houses of the Moors, you see young black boys serving tea. I don`t know what their work contracts are but I would not like to have theirs,`` said one diplomat, who asked not to be named. He said Mauritania`s new president, to be elected in a March 25 run-off between two white Moor frontrunners, would have to tackle slavery and enduring social and racial inequality: ``It`s at the heart of this country`s imbalances.`` Historians say slavery developed in Mauritania from the 7th century, when Arab invaders pushed south into Sub-Saharan Africa, bringing their Islamic religion which explicitly allowed the enslavement of non-believers.
This blossomed into a Trans-Saharan Slave Trade that captured black Africans several centuries before the peak of the European-run Atlantic Slave Trade. Some historians argue the practice of slavery already existed in black Africa. This religious sanctioning of slavery and the establishment of Arabicised Berber ruling castes whose wealth was partially based on it-has marked Mauritanian society. ``There is a racial policy here. It`s the politics of domination,`` said Boulkheir, adding that Islamic law and succession rights guaranteed the perpetuation of slavery, passing on ownership from master to son. He said the 1981 ban ``doesn`t exist`` in practice. ``It gives the right of compensation to the master,`` he added. ``The state has never prosecuted anyone. We need a law that criminalises slavery,`` Messaoud said. The activists said they had asked the outgoing junta head, Col Ely Ould Mohamed Vall, to include a prohibition of slavery in the constitution, but he rejected the idea. Slavery was so engrained in Mauritania`s society that it had even crossed racial and social barriers, they said. ``There are white slaves. There are blacks with black slaves. There are even freed slaves who have slaves,`` Boulkheir said. He said many Mauritanians remained ``slaves in their heads`` even after freedom. Asked if he forgave his former masters, Matalla shook his head: ``No they are bad people.`` - Reuters
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#162 Posted by bhairav on March 22, 2007 10:08:56 am
http://www.kbc.co.ke/story.asp?ID=41638
Kenya Broadcasting Corporation
Probe of Darfur `slavery` starts
Written By:Muthoni Kariuki/bbc , Posted: Wed, Mar 21, 2007
Lawyers in Sudan`s Darfur region are investigating reports of slavery during the conflict.
``There are many cases of abductions,`` a Sudanese lawyer told the BBC.
They are too afraid of possible reprisals from either militias or state security agents to give their names but say there is strong evidence.
``It is happening but on a smaller scale than in the south,`` one Sudanese human rights worker said. Some 11,000 people were enslaved in the north-south war.
Arab pro-government ``Murahaleen`` militias rode their horses into southern villages, killing men, raping women, looting anything they found and burning the huts.
The Darfur conflict broke out just as the war in the south was coming to an end and eyewitness reports bear a striking similarity of atrocities committed by the militias, known in Darfur as the Janjaweed.
One of the worst affected parts of south Sudan was Bahr al-Ghazal - just south of the border with the largely Arab north and not far from South Darfur.
Sudanese human rights workers say some members of the Arab Rezeigat community have been in both the Janjaweed and the Murahaleen but most of the Janjaweed are from different Arab tribes.
Sudan`s veteran anti-slave campaigner James Aguer, however, says they are exactly the same groups, just with a different name.
Sudan`s government has strongly denied claims it mobilised first the Murahaleen and then the Janjaweed to terrorise civilian populations seen as rebel sympathisers.
It also denies there are slaves in Sudan, instead using the euphemism ``abdcutees``.
But some analysts say the similar methods used could be because they have undergone the same training.
One aid worker said that in both cases, after local groups took up arms against the government, Arab tribal leaders were told that black Africans were trying to take their land and needed to be resisted. The Arabs were given weapons with horrific results, he said.
Until now, a key difference between the two conflicts is that despite all the other atrocities committed, there have been no reports of people in Darfur being abducted and held for more than a few weeks.
A court in Khartoum has heard evidence that some 40 women and girls were abducted two years ago from the village of Wadi Saleh by a group of Janjaweed.
One of the militiamen sought a court order to let him legally marry one of the women but after he admitted how they had met, the judge refused his request.
Both the woman and the man said the 40 had been divided up between the raiders as a form of booty.
But the woman has since disappeared.
There is no independent confirmation of the claims but the testimony closely resembles that of some of the southerners who were abducted during raids on their villages and spent years in slavery in the north before returning home following the north-south peace deal.
One of the lawyers now investigating the reports says he has personally met two people who were forced to work for a prominent Janjaweed leader for six months, before another member of the militia helped them escape.
One reason why there seems to be less slavery in Darfur could be religion.
Both Darfur and south Sudan are mostly inhabited by black Africans but southerners are mostly Christian and animist, while Darfuris are generally Muslim, like the Arabs who have traditionally dominated Sudan.
Forced conversion seemed to be one motivation behind the abduction of southerners - they were mostly given Islamic names and told they were now Muslim.
One group of abductors was known as the Muhajadeen [Islamic holy warriors].
But this justification cannot be used in Darfur.
``Muslims are strictly forbidden to enslave fellow Muslims,`` the lawyer said.
While they proceed with their investigations, the lawyers are extremely concerned for their safety.
The Hague-based International Criminal Court has already issued an arrest warrant for a top Sudanese official over the conflict in Darfur - and says it is investigating others.
As a result, anyone seen asking questions about possible war crimes such as enslavement would be seen as a potential ICC spy, the lawyers fear.
Kenya Broadcasting Corporation
Probe of Darfur `slavery` starts
Written By:Muthoni Kariuki/bbc , Posted: Wed, Mar 21, 2007
Lawyers in Sudan`s Darfur region are investigating reports of slavery during the conflict.
``There are many cases of abductions,`` a Sudanese lawyer told the BBC.
They are too afraid of possible reprisals from either militias or state security agents to give their names but say there is strong evidence.
``It is happening but on a smaller scale than in the south,`` one Sudanese human rights worker said. Some 11,000 people were enslaved in the north-south war.
Arab pro-government ``Murahaleen`` militias rode their horses into southern villages, killing men, raping women, looting anything they found and burning the huts.
The Darfur conflict broke out just as the war in the south was coming to an end and eyewitness reports bear a striking similarity of atrocities committed by the militias, known in Darfur as the Janjaweed.
One of the worst affected parts of south Sudan was Bahr al-Ghazal - just south of the border with the largely Arab north and not far from South Darfur.
Sudanese human rights workers say some members of the Arab Rezeigat community have been in both the Janjaweed and the Murahaleen but most of the Janjaweed are from different Arab tribes.
Sudan`s veteran anti-slave campaigner James Aguer, however, says they are exactly the same groups, just with a different name.
Sudan`s government has strongly denied claims it mobilised first the Murahaleen and then the Janjaweed to terrorise civilian populations seen as rebel sympathisers.
It also denies there are slaves in Sudan, instead using the euphemism ``abdcutees``.
But some analysts say the similar methods used could be because they have undergone the same training.
One aid worker said that in both cases, after local groups took up arms against the government, Arab tribal leaders were told that black Africans were trying to take their land and needed to be resisted. The Arabs were given weapons with horrific results, he said.
Until now, a key difference between the two conflicts is that despite all the other atrocities committed, there have been no reports of people in Darfur being abducted and held for more than a few weeks.
A court in Khartoum has heard evidence that some 40 women and girls were abducted two years ago from the village of Wadi Saleh by a group of Janjaweed.
One of the militiamen sought a court order to let him legally marry one of the women but after he admitted how they had met, the judge refused his request.
Both the woman and the man said the 40 had been divided up between the raiders as a form of booty.
But the woman has since disappeared.
There is no independent confirmation of the claims but the testimony closely resembles that of some of the southerners who were abducted during raids on their villages and spent years in slavery in the north before returning home following the north-south peace deal.
One of the lawyers now investigating the reports says he has personally met two people who were forced to work for a prominent Janjaweed leader for six months, before another member of the militia helped them escape.
One reason why there seems to be less slavery in Darfur could be religion.
Both Darfur and south Sudan are mostly inhabited by black Africans but southerners are mostly Christian and animist, while Darfuris are generally Muslim, like the Arabs who have traditionally dominated Sudan.
Forced conversion seemed to be one motivation behind the abduction of southerners - they were mostly given Islamic names and told they were now Muslim.
One group of abductors was known as the Muhajadeen [Islamic holy warriors].
But this justification cannot be used in Darfur.
``Muslims are strictly forbidden to enslave fellow Muslims,`` the lawyer said.
While they proceed with their investigations, the lawyers are extremely concerned for their safety.
The Hague-based International Criminal Court has already issued an arrest warrant for a top Sudanese official over the conflict in Darfur - and says it is investigating others.
As a result, anyone seen asking questions about possible war crimes such as enslavement would be seen as a potential ICC spy, the lawyers fear.
#163 Posted by bhairav on March 22, 2007 11:13:33 am
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518
Saudi sheik: `Slavery is a part of Islam`
Leading government cleric, author of country`s religious curriculum
Posted: November 10, 2003
5:00 p.m. Eastern
2003 WorldNetDaily.com
A leading Saudi government cleric and author of the country`s religious curriculum believes Islam advocates slavery.
``Slavery is a part of Islam,`` says Sheik Saleh Al-Fawzan, according to the independent Saudi Information Agency, or SIA.
In a lecture recorded on tape by SIA, the sheik said, ``Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.``
His religious books are used to teach 5 million Saudi students, both within the country and abroad, including the United States.
Al Fawzan a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia`s highest religious body says Muslims who contend Islam is against slavery ``are ignorant, not scholars.``
``They are merely writers,`` he said, according to SIA. ``Whoever says such things is an infidel.``
Al-Fawzan`s best-known textbook, ``Al-Tawheed Monotheism,`` says most Muslims are polytheists, and their blood and money are therefore free for the taking by ``true Muslims.``
SIA said although the Saudi government claims religious curriculum is being reformed, Al-Fawzan`s books are still in wide use.
Al-Fawzan is a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, Saudi Arabia`s main center of learning for the strict Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.
SIA noted Al-Fawzan, a leading opponent of curriculum reform, opposes elections and demonstrations as Western influences, is against Arab women marrying non- Arab Muslims and has issued a fatwa forbidding the watching of television.
Al-Fawzan has threatened to behead a Saudi writer and scholar, Sheik Hassan Al-Maliki, for his criticism of Wahhabism, according to SIA. Al-Maliki was fired from his position with the ministry of education after writing a 50- page paper criticizing Al-Fawzan`s book ``Al-Tawheed.``
#164 Posted by rajiv2303 on March 22, 2007 11:42:58 am
Jesus H Christ!!!Where does Poor Bob figure in all this!!!why have we got sidetracked to Islamic Slavery in Darfour and Mauretania??!!!
I have been to that Country on the edge of the Sahara...and found a Ship`s agent who was a fan of Hema Malini and Dharmendra..I kid you not.In Noadhibou..a place where you`d imagine
French Legionnairre`s in Kepis about....
Will someone please stop this digression?
I have been to that Country on the edge of the Sahara...and found a Ship`s agent who was a fan of Hema Malini and Dharmendra..I kid you not.In Noadhibou..a place where you`d imagine
French Legionnairre`s in Kepis about....
Will someone please stop this digression?
#165 Posted by bhairav on March 22, 2007 12:32:05 pm
http://pakistantimes.net/2005/05/03/national5.htm
Over 2,000 Pakistani camel-jockeys languishing in UAE
Pakistan Times National News Desk
ISLAMABAD: More than 2,000 ailing Pakistani children belonging to poor class are languishing in miserable conditions in so-called protected houses in Abu Dhabi. They were smuggled into the UAE for camel riding.
The presence of the children of less than six years of age has come to the light through courtesy of UAE government officials and some non-governmental organizations working internationally.
This startling disclosure has been made by the Minister of State for Labour, Manpower and Overseas Pakistanis, Tariq Azim, in a chat with noted journalist Muhammad Saleh Zaafir of The News here on Monday evening. The Minister dashed to Abu Dhabi to discuss the matter with Prince Saif Al-Nahyan, the Interior Minister of the UAE. They are meeting in Abu Dhabi Tuesday (today).
The minister revealed that Pakistan`s ambassador in the UAE, Air Marshal Qaiser Hussain, has already got rescued 134 such children from the smugglers` captivity. The death of some children has also been reported.
The UAE government has enacted legislation to deal with this cruel sport wherein small children were used as jockeys. The government has forbidden riding of less than 16-years of age or a child having weight less than 45 kg as jockey of camel. But some cheats are still involved in the business by using illegal means.
They get the age and weight of the children changed by scratching the original documents with the connivance of the airport staff and immigration officials on the both sides, the minister said.
Describing the plight of the children, the minister said that the children who fell off the running camels are either crushed to death or injured. Such children are not even provided with adequate food or proper treatment, he added.
The minister disclosed that in most cases smugglers get hold of abducted children and show them as children of fake mothers hired by them. On reaching the UAE, the fake mothers hand over the children to the ``rider mafia`` and return Pakistan under the pretext of some emergency with the help of some officials. They are given another set of children for the same cycle.
A staff member of Pakistan`s mission in the UAE was sent back recently on the charges of his involvement in such ``trade``, the minister added. The UAE embassy sources told this scribe that the UAE government has taken strict steps to check such activities and severe punishment is given to those involved in children riding.
Over 2,000 Pakistani camel-jockeys languishing in UAE
Pakistan Times National News Desk
ISLAMABAD: More than 2,000 ailing Pakistani children belonging to poor class are languishing in miserable conditions in so-called protected houses in Abu Dhabi. They were smuggled into the UAE for camel riding.
The presence of the children of less than six years of age has come to the light through courtesy of UAE government officials and some non-governmental organizations working internationally.
This startling disclosure has been made by the Minister of State for Labour, Manpower and Overseas Pakistanis, Tariq Azim, in a chat with noted journalist Muhammad Saleh Zaafir of The News here on Monday evening. The Minister dashed to Abu Dhabi to discuss the matter with Prince Saif Al-Nahyan, the Interior Minister of the UAE. They are meeting in Abu Dhabi Tuesday (today).
The minister revealed that Pakistan`s ambassador in the UAE, Air Marshal Qaiser Hussain, has already got rescued 134 such children from the smugglers` captivity. The death of some children has also been reported.
The UAE government has enacted legislation to deal with this cruel sport wherein small children were used as jockeys. The government has forbidden riding of less than 16-years of age or a child having weight less than 45 kg as jockey of camel. But some cheats are still involved in the business by using illegal means.
They get the age and weight of the children changed by scratching the original documents with the connivance of the airport staff and immigration officials on the both sides, the minister said.
Describing the plight of the children, the minister said that the children who fell off the running camels are either crushed to death or injured. Such children are not even provided with adequate food or proper treatment, he added.
The minister disclosed that in most cases smugglers get hold of abducted children and show them as children of fake mothers hired by them. On reaching the UAE, the fake mothers hand over the children to the ``rider mafia`` and return Pakistan under the pretext of some emergency with the help of some officials. They are given another set of children for the same cycle.
A staff member of Pakistan`s mission in the UAE was sent back recently on the charges of his involvement in such ``trade``, the minister added. The UAE embassy sources told this scribe that the UAE government has taken strict steps to check such activities and severe punishment is given to those involved in children riding.
#167 Posted by okhla99 on March 22, 2007 8:09:37 pm
From the Arizona article
<<< 18 months ago the vice police started their new focus of proactively seeking out pimps.
I want to send them to prison penniless, and naked if possible, said Sergeant Bray. And thats what the other 18 vice officers are there to do as well. >>>
Masadi dear, the Arizona police must have made it very uncomfortable for you. Is this why you fled the US ???
#168 Posted by rajiv2303 on March 22, 2007 8:12:11 pm
And now its official.Woolmer was strangled.Should this world cup be aborted?
#169 Posted by rajiv2303 on March 22, 2007 8:29:12 pm
Re: # 165
And what is your global point?Pakistan,DArfour,Mauretania all point to the dark backwardness of Islam??Give it a break..
And what is your global point?Pakistan,DArfour,Mauretania all point to the dark backwardness of Islam??Give it a break..
#170 Posted by rajiv2303 on March 22, 2007 8:31:51 pm
Bhairav,
Sorry.Am a tubelight.I finally got it...you are driving home the point to dear MAsadi san about Islam &Slavery.
Still,what does that have to do with now the alleged murder of an englishman?I am not so clever about these things
Sorry.Am a tubelight.I finally got it...you are driving home the point to dear MAsadi san about Islam &Slavery.
Still,what does that have to do with now the alleged murder of an englishman?I am not so clever about these things
#171 Posted by bhairav on March 22, 2007 9:19:20 pm
I apologize for all the previous cut and paste posts about Slavery, existing in 21st Century, in the Islamic world.
Just got bit tired of imaginary rants of exploitation/discrimination by White-man, made by the Islamist/ Marxist (a real oxymoronic combo if ever there was one) interactor Masadi, when in the Islamic countries Allahs chosen people are doing worse. But of course US/West is to blame for everything. Isnt it?
Was just trying to point out that ALL Slavery/exploitation is/was not done by the White Bogeyman alone. No way am I supporting whites/ Europeans. Whites have acknowledged that slavery/colonialism is bad, done some reparations and are moving on and their societies are as equitable as human nature will possibly allow.
Islamic societies, on the other hand, have a long way to go. If you dont acknowledge you have a problem, how will you solve it?
Just saying Islam means peace; Islam is against slavery; Islam was 1st to give rights to woman Does not amount to hill of beans.
Your actions speak so LOUD, I cant hear what you are saying.
I mean you just have to look at Muslim countries and you get your answer.
Slavery, womens exploitation and killing infidels (non-Muslims) - has religious sanction in Islam. Acknowledge it, and then try to change it.
In India caste-system and treatment of Dalits and women was bad. This has been acknowledged and special laws have been put in constitution to uplift them. Its not perfect but after 60 years of Indian independence, the Dalits/women are little better-off now than in 1947. Moreover the exploited in India (Dalits/women) have been empowered to fight for their own rights and dont have to wait for hand-outs. They have organizations / political parties geared to work for their rights and demands. Most Maoists in Indias most backward states are Dalits who are fighting and hammering away against feudal landlords and labor exploitation.
Chinese are trying to change things their own way with some success and the commies in Calcutta are trying to emulate them with little success.
Thing is exploitation/discrimination happened everywhere because there was not enough wealth to go around and the powerful kept it all to themselves. Times are different now. And change should be easy today. But just keeping on repeating Whiteman = Bad gets old after sometime and does not get you anywhere.
#172 Posted by dharma on March 23, 2007 3:07:51 pm
will indians kill their coach now that they are out of the cup?
na we will just kill their potential to make money. thank you.
they just wont get any endorsements for a while i am sure.
It is market economy vs madarasa economy.
na we will just kill their potential to make money. thank you.
they just wont get any endorsements for a while i am sure.
It is market economy vs madarasa economy.
#173 Posted by PM on March 23, 2007 3:11:44 pm
bhairav:
No need for apologies. Your posts were completely relevant to the turn the discussion had taken.
shree rajiv, perhaps you`re new to chowk, but it`s taken as a given, and accpetable, that interacts go off on tangents. No one could ever accuse us chowkies of being excessively lateral thinkers. :-)
waisey, bhairav, to my understanding, while slavery was (is?) completely acceptable in Islam, the Prophet himself admonished his followers to treat slaves with a modicum of kindness.
But then, that`s not so different from the white slave owner`s often benighted `caring` for his slaves, now is it, retarded masadi?
No need for apologies. Your posts were completely relevant to the turn the discussion had taken.
shree rajiv, perhaps you`re new to chowk, but it`s taken as a given, and accpetable, that interacts go off on tangents. No one could ever accuse us chowkies of being excessively lateral thinkers. :-)
waisey, bhairav, to my understanding, while slavery was (is?) completely acceptable in Islam, the Prophet himself admonished his followers to treat slaves with a modicum of kindness.
But then, that`s not so different from the white slave owner`s often benighted `caring` for his slaves, now is it, retarded masadi?
#174 Posted by rajiv2303 on March 23, 2007 11:28:06 pm
Re: # 173
PM,
I am surprised that as yet no retort has come to bhairav`s responses,which are actually based on fact from MASADI the MArxist-Islamist(if such the thing is possible)
So India is out of the world cup.Great.Any game where a coach of one of the contenders gets killed in a mutinational tournament needs some cold water thrown on it.
I hope the hype fades.I hope Sachin,Saurav,Dravid have the good sense and the grace to go when the timing is right.And I hope sadly ,and in vain,that no one assaults them ,burns their effigies,and other such crap.Just let those poor guys lick their wounds in peace..
Enough already.
PM,
I am surprised that as yet no retort has come to bhairav`s responses,which are actually based on fact from MASADI the MArxist-Islamist(if such the thing is possible)
So India is out of the world cup.Great.Any game where a coach of one of the contenders gets killed in a mutinational tournament needs some cold water thrown on it.
I hope the hype fades.I hope Sachin,Saurav,Dravid have the good sense and the grace to go when the timing is right.And I hope sadly ,and in vain,that no one assaults them ,burns their effigies,and other such crap.Just let those poor guys lick their wounds in peace..
Enough already.
#175 Posted by masadi on March 24, 2007 2:51:42 am
PM writes <<< But there`s this little thing called Probable Cause. Heard of it? See how your theses start to wither on these grounds once the players` own words are matched against contrary contentions >>>
The thesis does not wither because one person claims to love the other or the other in his subordinate role claims to see the superior as a father figure...by the way most colonials treated their subordinates as if they had a child mentality and needed instruction and couldn`t think for themselves. Probable cause is not established in this nonsense manner in which you are suggesting, you have to look much deeper, at the effects; a person claims that his best friend is black, yet he blocks all opportunities for them based on race by sweet talk that makes them feel good but gets them nowhere, does that ``prove`` that he is a non-bigot? Of course not. Now when the authorities investigate murder are they going to let off the players just because they said that he was like ``their father``? Get real fool...
The thesis does not wither because one person claims to love the other or the other in his subordinate role claims to see the superior as a father figure...by the way most colonials treated their subordinates as if they had a child mentality and needed instruction and couldn`t think for themselves. Probable cause is not established in this nonsense manner in which you are suggesting, you have to look much deeper, at the effects; a person claims that his best friend is black, yet he blocks all opportunities for them based on race by sweet talk that makes them feel good but gets them nowhere, does that ``prove`` that he is a non-bigot? Of course not. Now when the authorities investigate murder are they going to let off the players just because they said that he was like ``their father``? Get real fool...
#176 Posted by rajiv2303 on March 24, 2007 4:15:45 am
Re: # 175
Masadi,
this is getting way too tiresome,pal.Wake up and smell the coffee
Masadi,
this is getting way too tiresome,pal.Wake up and smell the coffee
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