Is this Pakistan’s Democratic Revolution?

Folio (VRV) & Harish,

Your mutual sixtynining (yes mouthfull and all..) is only digressing from the topic of this board.

Comeback to the present. Understand that viewpoints diametrically opposed to your own may also be valid. Sometimes even more valid. Irrational knee jerk reactions to any idea that you do not find acceptable (for whatever reason) only diminish your own standing on Chowk. VRV/ Folio is an established idiot. Harish need not team up with him at all, since he otherwise enjoys a reasonable degree of credibility.

May good sense prevail...

``lingers in my mind``

What a place your mind must be...

#206 by majumdar on March 27, 2007 2:11am PT
Salimbhai,

Pakistan is doing well economically but that is not entirely because of good handling by the current govt. It is benefiting from some extraneous factors ...A civilian admin dominated by PPP Punjabis would have done as well, I would think.

Incidentally Ayub and Zia govt (Pathan, Punjoo) saw good growth for Pak too. But just as in their case, lack of institution buidling could undermine the current govt achievements too.``}

Majumdar Bhai,
I find it difficult to believe that Pakistan has been without a rudder for the past 7+ years. :)
We had civilian and ``democratically-elected`` PPP and Punju administrations under Nawaz Besharif and Bezameer Bhutto for well over a decade and look at what they did. Bangladesh and fundo terrorism are the true legacies of Ayub and Zina Owl Hag. :)

Mushy is a military, albeit a benign, dictator, but give him some credit for steering Pakistan through a very difficult period - especially since 9/11. Thanks.

Re: # 212

PS : Harish mian is a habitual liar ... he knows full well that no such thing happened but he wishes.

Also... nobody has answered the simple question as to why - when Gandhi`s followers were butchering Muslims in and around Calcutta, did Gandhi wait four months before trying to stop them?

Asking Jinnah to call off a strike after the day was infact over was a truly moronic argument worth harish hyd`s reputation ... when infact Jinnah did not wait even a single day before condemning the violence duly condemning it the next morning... but letting Gandhi off the hook for not stopping his goons- who were armed to the teeth according to all reports- even four months from the violence is just novel.... ``because Gandhi did not call for Direct Action Day`` which meant Gandhi did not need to tell his followers not to resort to violence of the worst kind against Muslims... wah.

I suppose Gandhi did not want to restrain his followers because 1. someone had administered a salt enema rendering him speechless 2. he had a vow of silence against all Muslims.

Folio,

The pogroms were carried by the Congress Party not the Muslim League. Abusing Jinnah might one way of defending the racist casteist Hindu fascist bigot Gandhi... but sadly you`ve never been able to back your claims against Jinnah...

Dear Harish mian,

1. Just because you say something, it does not stand ``proved``. I know you are quite delusional about your self importance, but please allow me to say it is not true.

2. If Lal Bahadur Shastri resigned for the train accident, so was Suhrawardy removed and replaced with Nazimuddin. So your point is what... because what you are arguing as usual does not make any sense.

3. So since Jinnah called for direct action day, a peaceful day of protest, Gandhi`s goons were free to maim and murder Muslims left right and center?

4. There is no definitive answer to who started what. But all reports speak of Muslims with sticks and stones and Hindus with guns etc... so it is clear that it was Congress that had planned the whole thing well in advance to bring down the Muslim League government.

He justifies hate and pogroms and ethnic cleansings of Muslim League and cuts sorry figure with a straight face for the current plight of Pak polity & society not forgetting that the present heat was actaully flowing from the grave of Jinnah.

I can see the vandalism of MantoDIES on Wikipedia. Harish, I`d like to know if his arse was burnt beyond recognition for such vandalism?

He justifies hate and pogroms and ethnic cleansings of Muslim League and cuts sorry figure with a straight face not forgetting that the current heat was actaully flowing from the grave of Jinnah. BJ once said it & still lingers in my mind: Jinnah started a small grave and his followers never started digging it deeper and deeper even today.

#208 by Yasser

How logical... So ... when the British hand over power to the Congress instead of the league they were being balanced but when they made a statement against the Congress they were pro-Muslim League ... brilliant objectivity.

Aww...now that Jinnah`s culpability has been proven beyond doubt, you had to resort to outright lies, how very surprising! Please show us where I called the British balanced? Looks like all the truth therapy has caused you to lose your mental balance, that`s all!

Those statements, unsourced and inconclusive as they are, were probably used by the Congress to justify its actions.

Show us the evidence, moron! ``Probably`` is not proof.

It goes without saying that Muslim League strongholds and Muslim Majority cities remained peaceful despite complete hartal. Calcutta was chosen by the Congress to taint the Muslim League and bring down its ministry.

And that`s not the point, idiot. We`re talking about what happened in Calcutta on DAD. Who cares what happened elsewhere!

And while you`ve just quoted an editorial, conjectures and surmises, I am giving you actual and circumstantial evidence which shows that the Congress` followers, the Hindus and Sikhs, was involved in the heinous crimes against humanity...

Do do you even know what the word ``conjecture`` means? Lal Bahadur Shastri, a former Indian PM, resigned as the Railways Minister from Nehru`s cabinet because there had been a train accident in which a couple of hundred passengers lost their lives. And here we have the crook, who despite causing almost 4000 deaths, brazenly went on to become the governor general of his country. That shows what a scrupulous person this man was.

Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.

Did Tuker say who started the violence? What`s your point?

At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``

Again, Wavell doesn`t speak about who started it, so I fail to understand what you`re getting at.

The million dollar question is that when Congress was bussing in Hindus and Sikhs into Calcutta, armed to the teeth, what was Gandhi doing? Getting a salt enema administered? or fasting to remain fit?

Idiot, only a absolute moron like you would drag Gandhi into this. Did Gandhi call for DAD? Then why should he bother? Have you taken leave of your senses?

Your failure to answer why Gandhi didn`t stop Hindus and Sikhs - despite incontrovertible evidence that they were butchering Muslims left right and center... shows the real story.

Till now, you haven`t been able to disprove the fact that it was Jinnah`s call that led to violence. Instead you want Gandhi to stop the killings of Muslims, which was in retaliation to Muslim violence unleashed on Hindus and Sikhs in response to Jinnah`s call to Direct Action.

....Jinnah is a blood-thirsty beast.

i/o


Jinnah is a blood-thirsty beat

yasser,

I dont think u can understand history. I know u are educated in Pakistan. I dont think u can read (I dont mean understand, for u are a dodo) all the works of Gandhi. His views on blacks are not unusual. At any rate Gandhi is a saint, Jinnah is a blood-thirsty beat. There`s no comparison.

As for travelling with dirty people, Gandhi did it all the time (travelling III class in trains) whereas the Racist Jinnah avoided contact with the poor and travelled I calss. Jinnah was a super racist.

There`s never a biggest bigot than Jinnah in the history of modern India. There`s never a biggest communalist than Jinnah. If people in Pakistan feel the heat of extremism, it`s the biosphere of hate that was infused into the thinking of the inhabitants of the north west India i.e Pakistan. Live with it.

U have not confirmed if any of ur family members married blacks or at least choorhas.

Dear Harish mian,
Harish mian...

How logical... So ... when the British hand over power to the Congress instead of the league they were being balanced but when they made a statement against the Congress they were pro-Muslim League ... brilliant objectivity.

Those statements, unsourced and inconclusive as they are, were probably used by the Congress to justify its actions. It goes without saying that Muslim League strongholds and Muslim Majority cities remained peaceful despite complete hartal. Calcutta was chosen by the Congress to taint the Muslim League and bring down its ministry.

And while you`ve just quoted an editorial, conjectures and surmises, I am giving you actual and circumstantial evidence which shows that the Congress` followers, the Hindus and Sikhs, was involved in the heinous crimes against humanity...

Sir Francis Tuker says:
Static guards took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue organisation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the `military` areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.

And Lord Wavell wrote:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``


The million dollar question is that when Congress was bussing in Hindus and Sikhs into Calcutta, armed to the teeth, what was Gandhi doing? Getting a salt enema administered? or fasting to remain fit?

Your failure to answer why Gandhi didn`t stop Hindus and Sikhs - despite incontrovertible evidence that they were butchering Muslims left right and center... shows the real story.

Yasser thinks by quoting British officials, who were traditionally pro-ML and vehemently against the Congress, he can get Jinnah off the hook. But here are editorials, statements from Jinnah and his cohorts which make it clear what lay ahead.


This is an editorial from the ‘News Chronicle’ of the 30th July, 1946, which foresaw what was to come a full fortnight before the actual violence took place. Was Jinnah so stupid to not have foreseen what a newspaper editor (and many others) could?

Said the ‘News Chronicle’ of the 30th July, 1946, a day after the passage of the Direct Action Resolution:

“What precisely does Mr. Jinnah think he will achieve by embracing violence-and at a moment when so substantial a part of his claims has been conceded?

“Does he think that communal strife will benefit India or even the Muslim part of India? He has only to look at other parts of Asia to see what lies at the end of that tunnel.

“Does he want his country to become another China, ravaged and utterly impoverished by interminable Civil War?

“It is hopeless, of course, if Mr. Jinnah is wedded to complete intransigeance-if, as now seems the case he really is thirsting for a holy war.

“If Mr. Jinnah nosy resorts to violence, it will be very difficult to save India from disaster.”


Some of the things said by Jinnah on this occasion:

“What we have done to-day is the most historic act in our history. Never have we in the whole history of the League done anything except by constitutional methods. But now we are forced into this position. Today we bid good-bye to constitutional methods.”

“To-day we have forged a pistol and are in a position to use it.”

“We mean every word of it. We do not believe in equivocation.”

“If you seek peace, we do not want War. But if you want War, we will accept it unhesitatingly.”


Nawabzada Liaqat Ali Khan, later Prime Minister of the Dominion of Pakistan, elucidating the implications of the Direct Action threat, said:

“Direct Action means resort to non-constitutional methods, and that can take any form which may suit the conditions under which we live. We cannot eliminate any methods. Direct Action means any action against the Law.”

Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar, later a member of the Pakistan Government, declared:

“Pakistan can only be achieved through shedding blood of ourselves, and if need be, and if opportunity arose, by shedding blood of others. Muslims are no believers in Ahimsa.”

Raja Ghanzafar Ali Khan, later also member of the Pakistan Government, speaking to a huge Muslim gathering at Lahore on the 31st August, 1946 outlined the Muslim League Direct Action as the economic political and social boycott of the Congress and ‘the following of a scorched earth policy.’

Jinnah held out the threat that Direct Action by Muslims would lead to one hundred times more destruction than the Direct Action of the Hindus (meaning the Congress).

Ghulam Mustafa Shah Gilani said:

“Any attempt to prevent the establishment of Pakistan would lead to bloodshed.”

Sardar Shaukat Hyat Khan said:

“The Punjab Muslims do not believe in non-violence and should not, therefore, be given cause for grievance because once the Muslim lion is infuriated it would become difficult to subdue him.”

Sir Feroze Khan Noon said:

“I tell you this much that if we find that we have to fight Great Britain for placing us under one Central Hindu Raj, then the havoc which Muslims will plays will put to shame what Jenghez and Halaku Khan did.”

Sir Ghulam Hussain Hadayatullah, at that time Premier of Sind and later under Pakistan, Governor of the same Province, said:

“The Congress should understand that unless they make friends with us and accede to our demands there will he no peace in India.”

All these make amply clear as to what was in store, but only Yasser and his cohorts have trouble comprehending. Ah well!

Salimbhai,

Pakistan is doing well economically but that is not entirely because of good handling by the current govt. It is benefiting from some extraneous factors like overall strong growth globally, financial aid/inflows following 9/11 and the fact that Arabs who are finding West a more unreliable place to invest in are now shifting funds to Pak (incidentally India too). A civilian admin dominated by PPP Punjabis would have done as well, I would think.

Incidentally Ayub and Zia govt (Pathan, Punjoo) saw good growth for Pak too. But just as in their case, lack of institution buidling could undermine the current govt achievements too.

Regards

Now how is Civil and Military Gazette a pro Muslim League paper? That is just amazing. It is an editorial... hence a point of view. You keep making up news facts...

If the violence waged on four days... it was Congress goons who were being bussed in. How could Jinnah stop them? And where the hell was Gandhi ... oh I know he did not issue a statement till November 03 1946.... four months after the violence had abided.

So far you`ve not produced anything that can remotely be used against the Muslim League...

Meanwhile ... Sir Francis Tuker says:
Static guards took over from police guards and a party of troops under Major Littleboy, the Assistant Provost-Marshal, did valuable work in the rescue organisation for displaced and needy persons. Outside the `military` areas, the situation worsened hourly. Buses and taxis were charging about loaded with Sikhs and Hindus armed with swords, iron bars and firearms.


And Lord Wavell wrote:

``Last weekend has seen dreadful riots in Calcutta. The estimates of casualties is 3000 dead and 17000 injured. The Bengal Congress are convinced that all the trouble was deliberately engineered by the Muslim League Ministry, but no satisfactory evidence to that effect has reached me yet. It is said that the decision to have a public holiday on 16th August was the cause of trouble, but I think this is very far-fetched. There was a public holiday in Sind and there was no trouble there. At any rate, whatever the causes of the outbreak, when it started, the Hindus and Sikhs were every bit as fierce as Muslims. The present estimate is that appreciably more Muslims were killed than the Hindus``


I think it is quite clear who armed who... and your selective quoting of some newspaper editorial will NOT change the facts about Calcutta Killings... besides if violence was what was required... the League could have done it better elsewhere. And the greatest beneficiary of this violence was the Congress Party which got an excuse for keeping the League out of the government.

So circumstantial and well as direct evidence proves that it was Congress which did it to taint Muslim League- which till then had been a strictly constitutional party- with violence.

#201 by broken record Yasser

If your claim about my running away are true, why is it that you are still missing in action on atleast 15 different boards despite my repeated offers to you to answer direct questins...

Hahahaha! And pray tell us what those boards might be? The fact that you`ve been caught with your pants down so frequently for fleeing boards where it gets too hot is clearly playing on your mind, and to redeem yourself, you have to accuse others of doing the same thing...LOL!

As for Your questions, they have all been answered adequately here and on other boards as well.

Can you please point to the specific points in your posts where they`ve been answered? Because all is see is a sea of words full of obfuscation and propaganda.

Now If direct action day was 16th August 1946 exclusively... what ``movement`` was Jinnah supposed to call off on the 17th? The busloads of Congress workers being brought in by Patel and the lot? This is just amazing logic...

The violence, fool. Even though Jinnah supposedly called a ``peaceful`` DAD for one day, violence raged on for four full days. For someone who is supposed to have read a great deal of the history surrounding the independence movement, you sure come across as rather ignorant. But then, reading and understanding are two entirely different things.

Now what newspaper is that ... did you just invent it like everything else?

It is ``The Civil & Military Gazette of Lahore``, a pro-League paper...this is what it had to say:

“We have termed the jeremiads of Muslim Leaguers ‘near hysterical nonsense,’ but they represent a trend of thought and a psychological attitude which hold the utmost danger for the whole country. Words are being broadcast everyday which will make fanatics of law-abiding citizens and throw them into the same camp with the lowest of goondas.

“Authentic reports from all parts of India describe the country as a powder-magazine, and at the moment the Muslim League is holding a torch which may send it sky-high. If the spark is applied, the present League leadership (in case, you didn`t know what it meant, it is Jinnah) will have to shoulder responsibility for events which will not only blast for ever all hopes of Hindu-Muslim co-operation in any field, but which will ruin all chances of India’s progress for decades.”

So even a lowly newspaper editor understands who must be blamed, but the supposedly Rutgers-educated ``attorney at law`` working for ``one of Pakistan`s top law firms`` doesn`t...LOL!

Re: # 202

PS: The great irony is that while reports speak of Muslims armed with sticks and bottles... all reports show that Hindus and Sikhs were armed to the teeth with Guns, fire arms and swords...