Inzi Post-Bob: An Interview

Dost-mittar #98: ``Not at all. I am aware of the Evangelical beliefs but, as far as I know, none of the Repulican leaders has sought votes on the agenda of fulfilling that Biblical prophecy.``

This is correct. However, no one in MMA or most other religious party has ever sought votes on the agenda of fulfilling any Islamic, ``prophecies`` either.......All of them, seek votes on religious issues in the domestic arena, turning them into political issues......On foreign policy, they portray issues to be political, although the background motivation is, once again religious.......i.e free Palestine......the main motivation is that the Palestinians are Muslims......

I would once again encourage you to study the detials of the Evangelical and Religious Right movements in the USA......Read the books, follow the leaders, watch their videos.....This is the most powerful politically religious group in the world.....No group in the Islamic world can even have close to the international clout this group carries......

Until Bush messed everything up, this group had reached the stage where they were the deciding factor in who becomes the US president.......They had moved ahead of the NRA and AIPAC.....Even now, look at the way McCain is pandering to them, even though he despises them.........

The foreign policy of the USA has a huge influence of this group......And this group does decide its foreign policy through Biblical prophecies......Bush may not directly declare that, however, it is certainly a deciding factor in making foreign policy, as he has to keep this group happy.........It is no different than abortion, gay marriage, etc........All these are interpreted through the Bible........Secularism supports abortion and gay marriage......Religion does not.......The Middle East foreign policy of the USA also has Biblical prophecies in the background......

``There has been a radical change in the Quebec scene tonight. ADQ`s `Super` Mario will be in the driver`s seat in the new Quebec government.``

I am actually moving back to Pakistan in a few weeks........So I have not been following Canadian domestic politics too closely.....I have been somewhat disappointed by the first Pakistani MP, who turned out to be a lota..........Pakistani politics, at the moment, is far more interesting.........

Re: # 96

Romair:

I understand your question. All I answer is to me even a single death is too high a price to pay. Therefore, death can be a measure. Your question indicates that you measure destruction and severity in terms of deaths, whereas I do not.

My yardstick is more complex and measures destruction and severity more accurately in terms of factors that affect civilian society, like economic, social, education and development.

My thesis is that Institutionalized religions have been harmful and have always used religious thoughts and values to benefit for the few for deliverance of believers, accumulation of power and wealth. Horror and ghastly stories of corruption, misuse of power and wealth included in their history.

It so happens that Institutionalized Islam is right now under pressure and that upsets many people who in my mind should take responsibility and help preserve great values of Islamic thoughts, and not hesitate in discarding the indefensible.

Do you agree with me that Fatwa and Jihad are the concepts that are hurting Islam more than anything? If so, then what are you doing as a responsible follower of Islam? Why answer to Palestinian problem must be found from Islamic tenets, or in terms of Fatwa and Jihad?

Why would you not reject these, are you afraid someone will stop calling you Muslim? Even if someone does, then why must your religion should care for what others call you, as long as you are happy to call yourself Muslim.

I wonder why not the Tableegheezies hold this game of cricket as a satanic pastime (`Lehwo-lehb` in Quranic terms) as Dr. Israr often proclaimed. But perhaps they believed more in the famous Bollywood film dialogue ``Namaz meri farz he aur cricket mera pesha``.

bulleya#97:

``I truly hope you are joking!.........``

Not at all. I am aware of the Evangelical beliefs but, as far as I know, none of the Repulican leaders has sought votes on the agenda of fulfilling that Biblical prophecy. Whatever Bush might believe, he is seeking support in the name of fighting for Democracy and against Terror and not to hasten the second coming of Christ. The Christian Right also seeks vote to support its conservative agenda, e.g., against abortion, homosexual rights and family values, for which it can even get support from Muslims and other religious communities.

``I certainly agree with you that Islamic societies need to re-evaluate Islam and study it and re-interpret it......``

Hopefully, this starts with reinterpreting, if not abandoning altogether, the concept of immutability of the original message.

``However I detour off from what you, hamidm and anil etc. are saying, the moment either of you try to pass on the total blame of terrorism, violence etc. onto the Muslims and Islam etc......Specially when the blame is passed on exclusively.....``

...and when did I do that?

P.S: There has been a radical change in the Quebec scene tonight. ADQ`s `Super` Mario will be in the driver`s seat in the new Quebec government.

Dost-Mittar #92: ``And while the evangelicals are a force to reckon with in the US, very few of them invoke Biblical prophecies for the Middle East to support Bush.``

I truly hope you are joking!.........Please take some time and study the Evangelical and Religious Right movement in the USA.....Please study it in detail......When you do so, you may understand, why I keep highlighting that it is the actions of the US which are fueling this violence, and that the terrorism from the Arab side, will not die down until the violence from the US side dies down.......

I certainly agree with you that Islamic societies need to re-evaluate Islam and study it and re-interpret it......I spend a good % of my reading time, trying to do that.....However I detour off from what you, hamidm and anil etc. are saying, the moment either of you try to pass on the total blame of terrorism, violence etc. onto the Muslims and Islam etc......Specially when the blame is passed on exclusively.......I rely on statistics, i.e. who is killing more of whom.........who is occupying more of whom.......Not because I happen to be a Muslim, but because I happen to be a human being........and I belive in everyone`s human rights`.....Not just in the human rights of th citizens of successful states......

Following is from the UK Gaurdian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,820528,00.html

`` In a country where weekly church attendance is about 20 times the level it is in Britain (40% v 2%), the relationship between religion and politics in the US is intense. And there is little doubt that, last spring, when President Bush dithered and dallied over his Middle East policy before finally coming down on Israel`s side, he was influenced not by the overrated Jewish vote, but by the opinion of Christian ``religious conservatives`` - the self-description of between 15 and 18% of the electorate. When the president demanded that Israel withdraw its tanks from the West Bank in April, the White House allegedly received 100,000 angry emails from Christian conservatives.

What`s changed? Not the Book of Genesis......What has really changed is the emergence of the doctrine known as ``dispensationalism``, popularised in the novels of the Rev Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. LaHaye and Jenkins may not mean much to you or to the readers of the New York Times Book Review, but the ninth volume of their Left Behind series sold three million hardback copies in the US last year, eclipsing John Grisham.

Central to the theory - based on a reading of scripture Brown would prefer not to discuss - is the Rapture, the second coming of Christ, which will presage the end of the world. A happy ending depends on the conversion of the Jews. And that, to cut a long story very short, can only happen if the Jews are in possession of all the lands given to them by God. In other words, these Christians are supporting the Jews in order to abolish them.``

Within the context of the US/Israel/Arab/Jewish/Muslim violence/terrorism there are three, ``religious`` items that need to be discussed. Not just one. I am not stating that you should not discuss Islam and/or Muslims, what I am stating is that discuss the remaing two also, i.e.:

- The concept of a Return to the Holy Land of Israel, and its affects on the world`s geo-political situation, violence and terrorism (A jewish religious concept, which laid the foundation of the current violence)
- The concept of the Rapture and the Second Coming of the Christ and its affects on the world`s geo-politcal situatino and violence and terrorism (a concept which is currently the basis of US foreign policy in the region)

Let`s spread the debate to all issues, which is all I am suggesting. Rather than the Anil/hamidm view, which disregards the above two, and narrows in solely on Islam/Muslims. Lets call all spades to be spades. Let`s call OBL, Bush and Sharon all terrorists, since they are all linked at the hip in this global war........Let`s hang them all........And let`s do so without any biases towards any country or religion.........

Anil #94: You are mixing two things.........I think it is because you are taking the US view of everything......And the US view is about as out of date as the OBL view.......I had asked you a long time ago, whether Muslims are killing more people of other religions, or vice-versa.......I had listed every religion, knowing the statistics myself........However, you refused to answer the question, at that time.......I will ask you the question again.....Have Muslims, in the present day world, killed more Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. than vice-versa........

If the statistics point to a Yes answer, then I am willing to consider your argument........However, if if the answer is No, i.e. more Muslims are getting killed, than vice-versa, then I would suggest you, at least, consider my argument..........

If we assume that the motivation of the Muslims doing the killing is religion, then what is the motivation of those who are killing the Muslims.....Specifically, since in nearly each and every case, it is the Muslims whose land and whose life were the original targets......

When I look at such things, I try to do so objectively, outside the domain of my own religion, nationality etc........If statistically speaking, more Muslims` land has been occupied and more Muslims have been killed, then your argument does nothing more than force the victim to accept the blame........That goes against human rights.....

Hence, I still stand by my original claim:.....There is terrorism amongst Mulsims......And those terrorists should be hanged........But what about terrorists like George Bush who has killed far more than those killed in the WTC attack......Are you even willing to consider Bush and cronies as terrorists..........I think most Arabs and Muslims consider them to be such......

If you aren`t, then I am afraid your argument will not resonate to any Muslim (moderate or otherwise).......It will be the pot calling the kettle black........If you are then, I would suggest, we try Bushs and the OBLs and solve the problem of violence in a comprehensive manner, without prejudice.........

Zeemax

People are not yet ready to hear that words don`t possess invariant meanings across different national, religious, and cultural boundaries.

For now we are stuck believing that a Chinese moderate is the same as an Indian moderate, the same as a Pakistani moderate, the same as an American moderate, the same as a Saudi Arabian moderate, and so on. Also a Budhist moderate is the same as a Christian moderate, a Hindu moderate, an Islamic moderate, a Jain moderate, and so forth.

What psychological hurdle keeps people from empirically (or theoretically) investigating this assumption isn`t easy to understand...It`s just far easier (and for some strange reason, more `moral`) to assume sameness and to keep abusing/deriding/fighting against everyone than to acknowledge divergent intergroup individual and social requirements, better learn what such differences are, and to use that understanding to construct creative solutions to the problem of sharing a common earth.

How misdirected and distorted our sense of `right` and `wrong` can get! Endless discussions, and nothing remotely like a common language!!

Re: # 87

Religious thoughts and beliefs offer value in human development, and will remain needed within the confines of individuals. Institutionalized religion is under threat. It has been 600 years since the last religious institution was created. These institutions played role to deliver more believers and in accumulating wealth and power.

With the rise of economic power and spread of education outside these institutions, their power has eroded. Roman Catholic Church saw its power reduced, except among the poor. Shankaracharyas delivered India to Hinduism almost 1,500 years ago, and nothing else. Lately, institutionalized Islam has not delivered anything other than terrorism. Many will dispute this, but which institution has ever owned the responsibility for doing harmful things, unless it is defeated. Only when the U.S. is seeing a defeat in Iraq that it is recognizing Iraq war was not about democracy.

That institutionalization of Islam is so easy, is one of the most intriguing aspect that any terrorist or disgruntled Muslim can create a terror institution. Even the right wing attackers in Oklahoma Bombing could not create such institution of massive power and reach. LTTE cannot either.

There is something very deadly in Fatwa, Jihad and easy oil money. These two words and concept have no other parallel in creation of institutions of death and destruction, and turning the world against all that is good in Islam. Sadly, people who could make the difference think that the fault lies in Israel or elsewhere.

Even in war, a proactive strategy works. So what, even if the fault lies in Israel or elsewhere. What is Islam’s answer, as it is portrayed to be Islam’s answer - not Palestinian answer or Arabic answer. Why all such answers have Jihad and Fatwa?

The first reform in Islam should be to get rid of these concepts. They have no value in modern societies. They hurt Islam more than even the act of OBL.

NFP @66: Hate is a pretty strong word, a lot of people just found it boring, unoriginal and not very representative of your fiction writing skills. So is this what you`re going to be doing from now on? Is this truly the end of the ``Cactus Gas`` days? :(

bulleya#87:

Nobody is forcing people to choose between atheism and religion - within Hindu religion itself, there are dozens of in-between possibilities and, if my undestanding of that religion is correct, one can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time. But I do agree that people in general are becoming more religious. Hopefully, it is just a phase.

But comparing what is happening in the Islamic world to what is happening in other religions is akin to our desi folks saying that there is corruption in every society (Enron in the US, sponsorship scandal in our own country). Rahul Dravid has not taken to doing a knotty tuft of hair (choti) or trying to convert Zaheer Khan or Pathan). Yes, the BJP is a force in India and it certainly has an anti-muslim bias but I dont remember any BJP leader digging into the vedas to seek support for itself. And while the evangelicals are a force to reckon with in the US, very few of them invoke Biblical prophecies for the Middle East to support Bush.

hamidm2 #89: ``......... let me remind you what you said :``I don`t don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims.``

Yes, I did say that......Now where in the world did you see the word, ``Jew`` in there?.......Perhaps you should stop extrapolating, as you are not too good at it.......A friendly suggestion to you: It`s about time, you pulled your head out of your rear, rather than perpetualy telling everyone else to pull their heads out.......

Wake up!.......Bill O`Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Wolfowitz, Feith, Gonzalez, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle are out of fashion now....Your neo-cons lost......Their ideas are going down the drain......I tried to highlight the inabilities of W to you years ago.......You did not listen......You bet on the wrong horse...Look what that has done to you and to the Republican party.......The world is far more violent now than it ever was.......Even US`s own think tanks are stating that......As are Israel`s........

Israel and USA are two political entities.........And I do think, this violence is not going to end, until these two entities stop their killings........I am not highlighting the correctness or incorrectness of their killings.......I am simply stating a simple fact.......I am not the only one who thinks that......I think much of the world thinks that.........This, of course, does not justify any terrorism against them........But lets not be too naive and lets accept the fact that they have committed extensive amounts of state terrorism, and have killed orders of magnitude more individuals through state terrorism than they have lost........

All this violence and terrorism did not spring up from thin air........It is part of a political cycle........A cycle, which has its basis in Israel and Palestine.........That is the catalyst........Now it has grown to an extent, where whole countries are being bombed and attacked and whole skyscrapers are being blown up.......Don`t you think this has something to do with it.....

Or do you really think it is actually based on Dost-mittar`s interpretation of a few verses in a holy book? Do you also think the Sikhs blew up the airliner in Canada, because of Guru Granth, or was it because of the politics of Punjab....Do you think the Tamil Tigers are blowing themselves up because of the Hindu Vedas or because of the politics of Sri Lanka?

One can expect such incoherent commentary from the US politicians and radio talk show hosts, but one would expect something more coherent from you..........After all, you are something more than a naive American.......You spent time in Lahore.........

Re: # 89


captain,

......... let me remind you what you said :``I don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims..`` .......... i guess you blame it on the bahais living in both these countries ....... but, like i said before, i still believe that little green men are to blame for all the ills that afflict abdul and his camel ...........

hamidm2 mian#: .....I believe I never mentioned Jews anywhere in my post........You seem to see them everywhere.......

......I did mention your good friend W........And yes, I do think he is responsible for much of the violence in the world.......I am not the only one......Most of the world thinks so.....There are, individuals, other than him, who are also responsible for some of the violence also....OBL is one of these.....

Hence, an end to this violence involves controlling people like yourself, who have wholeheartedly supported W.......It is this support which has resulted in more violence than anything else.......I thus find it odd, when you are lecturing others on non-violence and moderation.......And end to violence also involves controlling people who support OBL.......However, on this site, I have yet to run into anyone who supports OBL.........If you know of someone, kindly point it out........

In any case, I don`t see how this circle of violence will be solved until the Israel-Palestine issue is resolved.........The rest of us are mere bystanders in this war with you and W on one side and OBL and his version of you on the other........

Personally, I am neither with us nor against us, and would be more than happy if W and OBL blew each other up.......I, myself, however, would like to stay as far away from their war as possible, as I don`t want to get caught in the crossfire.........That, I think, is the best policy for every country and individual.......

Re: # 87

captain cluless,

...... instead of wastng our time and valuable cyberspace you could have simply said ``the jews are responsible for 9/11 and all the mayhem in the world !`` .......... personally, i think it is all bcause of the lttle green men who just landed in you back yard .......

Dost-mittar #: There is a return to religion, quite a few places in the world.........It is showing its face through different means..........In India, USA, the Muslim world etc.......I think it will show up in China soon also, as it becomes more free.........And Russia also....I think the philosophical contradictions of secularism are coming to the forefront and people are being forced to chose between religion and athiesm.......And at a political level, many people are chosing religion...........

Religiously conservative forces now completely control politics in USA....Had Bush not screwed it up for them, it would be impossible for Democrats to win anything, as USA is fully in control of the Evangelicals and Religious Right.........BJP has the strongest or second strongers votebase in India.......Religious parties in many, if not most, Muslim countries will win outright elections......Pakistan, is infact, an exception in this case......Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. fall under religious political influence....

Europe is the only place where religion is going down......

The actual reasons behind the current, ``microscope`` on Muslims has little to do with jihad etc....It has more to do with the influence of Israel in US politics, which has now lead to a conflict between USA and Arabs, which is spreading out to all Muslims.......Had there been jihad carried out against the Sri Lankan govt., I doubt anyone would have bothered and there would have been no microscope.....However, since the USA is iinvolved, the publicity is huge.......

I don`t see this ending, for the simple reason that it is not a one-sided conflict......Regardless of how much the USA media tries to portray it, as such....It is not, as if, Muslims are Arabs started fighting the USA......Quite the other way around......Israel occupied land, killed Arabs, who then fought back, and were attacked by USA and so on.....

So, I don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims.......I don`t see that happening anytime soon, because the geopolitics are such that USA will keep bombing Muslim countries and Israel will keep occupying Palestine.......

....There is another factor you are not considering......You are looking at everything from an expat point of view......The only Muslims who are under scrutiny are expat Muslims........It is only their lifestyles which are affected by these conflicts.......They constitute a microscopic % of the total Muslims in the world........The Muslims who remain in their own country are not too bothered about how their actions affect the ex-pat Muslims.......Hence, they have no motivation to tone their end of the violence.......

If a guy yells, ``Go Ahmadinijad`` in USA, he could get hunted down.....However, if he yells it any Muslim country, he would be cheered.......I am not sure what would happen if he yelled it in India........

I think this vicious circle is going to keep growing.......Just the killings in Iraq by the USA, must have created tens of thousands of angry Arabs, whose family members have died........They are probably ready to carry out some violence against the USA, UK etc.......

Their motivation through religion will be about as much as Bush`s motivation through religion (or Vajpayee`s etc.), i.e........their main aim will be political or personal, and it will be channeled through religion........Not the other way around, as you are suggesting........

So, the moral of the story is that tahmad, hamidm, you or anyone else (moderate, athiest or otherwise) is not going to be able to do much.......If every moderate Muslim in the world got up and started singing, it wouldn`t do much to convince the guy whose brother has been killed by an F-16 fired rocket..........That guy is going to want revenge, and at the moment the path to revenge he sees is through religiously motivated militant factions..........

My guess is that, as this circle gets bigger, the USA will keep bombing one Muslim country after another.........And militant Islamic factions will continue to target US airplanes, buidlings etc........until one day there will be a nuclear explosion in New York........

If the profile of the 9/11 hijackers is correct, they had more in common with hamidm, then with OBL.........Hence the solution to all this does not lie in moderate Muslims doing anything.......They are nothing, but innocent bystanders......It is a political problem and the solution lies in a two-state Palestine-Israel resolution..........

Re #82, dost-mittar,
The vast majority of Lahoris celebrating Basant actually consider it permissible in Islam. And you will find a group of `mullahs` supporting it too. That is the `official` postion too. In Pakistan, govt. can`t get away with saying that something is against Islam but let`s do it for tourism etc.
Same with yoga and blood transfusion. Some people can argue that they are not permissible in a religious tradition. Others can argue from within the same tradition that they are permissible. Why do you presume that the 2nd group will lose? You are making a pre-judgement in favor of one group.