Inzi Post-Bob: An Interview

... bigger chart here:

#78 by kaalchakra/#79 by dost-mittar

When we debate on `moderates`, we have to see whether they exist. And if they do, who are they?

I had posted this a while ago on some board. This is very significant because only once we agree who`s an extremist and who`s a moderate, only then we can go forward.

Do see below as to whether there`s a difference between the so-called `moderates` and the so-called `extremists` inside Muslim countries. This survey does not cover expatriate populations whom have their own interests to protect which is obvious:

khurram:

``They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.``

Not necessarily. Let me give some concrete examples: Lahoris love fun and they are at their boisterous best during the Basant festivities. Some mullahs have objected to it and they have been sidelined by simply saying that people need to have fun and it`s good for tourism. But if someone were to argue whether Basant is permissible in Islam or not, I suggest that Mullahs would win because they would undoubtedly find a link between Basant and some obscure or not so obscure Hindu god or goddess. Similarly, there seems to be an emerging trend towards yoga in some circles in Pakistan. But if one has to defend it as permissible according to islam, one may be hard put as the origins of yoga are certainly associated with the worship of Sun and other gods; thus practising yoga would be akin to practising shirk. To give an example from non-islamic world, blood transfusion could be in trouble if Jehovah Witnesses strict interpretation of the practice is to be challenged on religious, rather than medical ground.

Hamidm/Dost Mittar: My additional two cents on the subject:

dost mittar writes I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.

This Saudi propaganda is indeed one of the less discussed issues in newspapers etc. - however, this has been a major factor in replacing the Quran with the Hadees and Sharia (the tools for replacing democracy with kingship, by effectively making the ruler unaccountable to the people and enveloping the ruler in a de facto divine role (as mullah literally did by enveloping himself in a blanket he claimed belonged to the prophet), which of course is the anti-thesis of the Quran.

The fundamental problem - the reason the hadees and sharia finds fertile ground in India (and Pakistan, and in muslim countries elsewhere) is of course the same mindset which causes people to think that by sacrificing a goat on eid is that they will somehow be able to bribe a deity to intervene on their behalf. Such customs may traditionally have been innocuous (except for the goat in question), but have proved disastrous in today`s world where they provide an easy refuge to weak minds seeking to escape the confusion and uncertainty caused by a rapidly changing world.

Also note that the worst acts of terrorism are in fact conducted by ``muslims`` who in fact are totally different from the lota-wielding abdul that Hamidm brings up. Thus, the 9/11 terrorists were clean-shaven babus - and some of them (per newspaper reports) visited a striptease joint on their way to commit their murderous deed. Hardly the actions of a pious man. What they have in common with the lota-wielding abdul (or indeed in milder form those who think that by performing the hajj they will magically wash away their sins, or those millions who focus on rituals rather than on substance) is merely the same irrational mindset which leads them to the same confused and ignorant view of the message of Islam, of politics, economics and everything else.

khurram:

``You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar``

No, some of them have also gone to Oom, Deoband and even Karachi`s Binori Town Madrassa. :)

kaal, zeemax:

I feel differently. As I said in an earlier interact, it`s the constellation of geo-strategic events - the cold war in whcih the West shamelessly exploited Islam, end of the same cold war, the victory of shia islam in Iran, oil rich wahabis flush with cash, Bush, Afghanistan, Iraq- and Internet have put the focus on Islam. I remember that back in the eighties and early nineties, after the Air India bomb, it was Sikh religion that was in focus in Canada. And when there was an anti-racism seminar in Africa a few years ago, it was Hinduism`s caste system that came in for an unfavourable mention. But Islam is more in focus also because of its interenational reach.

zeemax

Agreed completely. Yet, it would be interesting to see what `moderates,` both inside and outside of Islam, think is so special about Islam and its world.

Re: #71, dost-mittar,
``they enter right into the Mullahs` den ....``
They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.

``The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran.....``
You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar and none of the moderates know Arabic.
Apparently, you think all Islamic scholars are of one kind.

#73 by kaalchakra

....the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?

Before DM comes in with his bit, let me jump in here:

It is because the Muslim World is the only one amongst all the foregoing which has the capacity and potential to upset the entire world order as we know it.

Is it true that they officially say prayers everytime a PIA plane takes-off????

dm

Is the Muslim world facing greater external and internal turmoil than the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?

tahmed#70:

````Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.


...But when one seeks to justify every statement by saying that it is in conformity with Islam, one seems to be interested more in the defence of Islam that the cause one is espousing. As I said, this is entering Mullah`s territory and dangerous. If a cause is desirable, it should not need the seal of approval of any book.

pandit#67 (and tahmed32):

You are right in the sense that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not wake up in the morning shouting takbir with swords in their hands. Most Muslims, like any other people, are tolerant, non-violent and peaceful citizens of their countries - always have been and probably always will. But a constellation of geo-political factors, globalisation and Internet have brought Islam -and thereby Muslims- into focus as never before. Muslims in places like Bosnia, Chechnya, Indonesia, Thailand and Phillipines who were always well integrated in their respected society and cultures are suddenly discovering that they are part of an ummah and being asked to pay allegiance to it.

The Muslim world is facing an unprecedented external and internal turmoil. Externally, Islam is being scrutinised as never before and enemies of Islam are eagerly searching in the quran and ahadith for any evidence of associating Islam and its prophet with violence and backwardness. Internally, Muslims are facing tremendous pressures, especially from Wahabis. I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.

I think that the moderates can win the battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims as long as they use rational arguments and commonly accepted human values to advance their cause but when, instead of regardless, they add qualifiers such as ``and this is also the true message of the quran``, they enter right into the Mullahs` den from which they generally come out bloodied and wounded. The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran with reference not only to dozens of the ahadith but also to history and to other prophets and their holy books.

I also think that the battle will be fought perhaps most vigorously in Pakistan where you have a influential civil society and a strong madrassa culture of the fundamentalist type, vying for the hearts and minds of a basically tolerant people whose emotional attachment to Islam can however be easily exploited. Thus, you have a free, open discussions, music videos, etc. on TV while at the same time a taleban-type set-up emerging in the Frontier region.

hamidm/dost mittar: greetings my friends (good to see dost mittar on chowk after a long time). your saying ``Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.

Islam didnt create the seven deadly sins - not to mention illiteracy, poverty, disease, military coups, corruption, abuse of women, abuse of the poor - and just saying ``Islam is the solution`` is not going to solve them. If you chose not to understand this basic point, then you are just as determined in pushing your claim that ``Islam is the problem`` as the mullah is in claiming that ``Islam is the solution``.


btw, check out the video on Pakistan on the nyt website today.

The General vs the Housewife

Re: # 70

hair of the dog and other silly stories

....... tahmed mian .... when i was younger i would get up on saturday mornings and have a bloody mary or two because i believed that the only way to fight the effect of alcohol was with more alcohol ........ i refused to believe that there was anything wrong with drinking like an idiot on friday night ............ and, like you, i still refuse to believe that alcohol can kill you - i have this line, similar to yours about religion, about drinking in moderation !

........ mian ji, as long as we keep on insisting that there is nothing wrong with the basic teachings of our religion and try to put some distance between us and some of its more abhorrent practices, we will stay mired in this morass ........... for example, there is no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice .....

........... similarly, it is foolhardy to keep on insisting that islam is a peace loving religion and that the word `jihad` means anything other than violent conflict against the infidels ......... all this cockamamie about jihad being a peaceful internal struggle is a big distraction from the main issue .......... as long as moderates like you keep on denying the violent nature of jihad, the jihadis will continue to blow themselves up .......

.......... trust me, bloody marys in the morning do not work ..........

Re: # 75

Hamidm Sahib:

``no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... ``

Such an act if it happened is at best glorification of abominable practice. To convince millions of suffers that they should remain slaves as one day it can happen to them also.

In Bihar, hindu practice includes worshipping poor - they are even called Daridra (= poor) Narayan (= God). People in power do that all the time, as it allows them to maintain a status quo. To convnce millions of suffers that they should remain Daridra, as one day they can be Narayan also.

``the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice ..... ``

Enlightened or otherwise moderation are clever plays on words, if there is no Zero Tolerance on outlawing (= reforming) abominable, dehumanizing and humiliating practices in a society. Caste system is institutionalized and has taken its toll. Economic improvement, and less rigidity is indeed showing up among the well-off segments. Economic betterment and empowerment through education are very strong forces to counter.

Although from what I know of Islam, it additionally suffers a unique closeness that comes from the absolute finality of the book and the messenger. This in my view is the root cause, that is completely artificial and in direct conflict with all natural laws. Till this is reformed, you will have better luck with you booze example, as people, including Tahmed Sahib will not stop shutting their mind off.

Can you tell me if this basic can be reformed?

Such an absolutism makes, OBL think he is so absolutely right also. To an outsider, it seems like Bhains ke aage been bajaye, bhains khadi pagraye. And the changes are lost. No other religious thought in present world has such absolutes, that is why even societies following hindu practices have a chance to evolve as a result of economic betterment and empowerment through knowledge. It does not mean that other societies do not have its shares of dogmatic believers. However, dogmatic believers cannot say that you are not a believer becuase you do not believe in absolutes, and there are now Mirzais or whatever.