Inzi Post-Bob: An Interview
Nadeem F Paracha March 23, 2007
#1 Posted by Pardaisi on March 23, 2007 11:12:21 am
Inzy should NOT have brought religion to the game, I dont hear anyone saying Lord or Jesus helped them win the game, praise the lord!
Religion has no place in sports. Period.
On the other hand just because Inzi can not speak English means we should make fun of him? did anyone made fun of Zidane for not speaking in English?
Most cricketers in the team are product of our broken school system so what do you expect from them. They can hardly articulate in Urdu.
Players need to realize Allah did not promise them a good score, performance or win, they have to depend on skills.
Religion has no place in sports. Period.
On the other hand just because Inzi can not speak English means we should make fun of him? did anyone made fun of Zidane for not speaking in English?
Most cricketers in the team are product of our broken school system so what do you expect from them. They can hardly articulate in Urdu.
Players need to realize Allah did not promise them a good score, performance or win, they have to depend on skills.
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#4 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 23, 2007 1:54:02 pm
yawn! if someone other than a chowk columnist had written this repetitive, unfunny, piece of crap, so soon after another almost identical piece by the same author, it would not have been published. and given that mr.woolmer has just been murdered it was in poor taste too.
#5 Posted by Love2love on March 23, 2007 2:10:07 pm
Had Mr. Paracha not parodied the Tablighi Jamaat connection with Pakistan team, I`m sure Mr. Naqshbandi would have had different sentiments about this piece. We know you`re a big fan of Junaid Jamshed`s naats ... but the guy`s a babling idiot, really.
Anyho, that`s your point of view Naqshbandi, that`s fine with me. As for some of us, I think us down and out Pakistani cricket fans do need a little bit of satire as well amidst all the hystarics exploding around us regarding the issue. There is absolutely nothing distateful about this piece. It`s satire, and satire is bound to bite.
Anyho, that`s your point of view Naqshbandi, that`s fine with me. As for some of us, I think us down and out Pakistani cricket fans do need a little bit of satire as well amidst all the hystarics exploding around us regarding the issue. There is absolutely nothing distateful about this piece. It`s satire, and satire is bound to bite.
#6 Posted by freethinker on March 23, 2007 2:38:57 pm
Interesting interview. It should have ended with:
Inna lillahay wa inna alayhay raja`ayoon.
Mohammad Gill
Inna lillahay wa inna alayhay raja`ayoon.
Mohammad Gill
#8 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 23, 2007 3:41:40 pm
india are out too!
if this piece had been the first NFP on this topic i wouldn`t have minded so much. what`ve JJs naats got to do with anything? I don;t like TJ as anyone who knows my views will know but this, even as satire, was utterly shite.
if this piece had been the first NFP on this topic i wouldn`t have minded so much. what`ve JJs naats got to do with anything? I don;t like TJ as anyone who knows my views will know but this, even as satire, was utterly shite.
#9 Posted by chaltahai on March 23, 2007 3:45:18 pm
Re: # 8 Nasbandhi, what are you on dude? seriously..the guy wrote something funny..that`s it. No need to frigging overanalyze this. let it go man..
#10 Posted by ali_1 on March 23, 2007 3:51:01 pm
#1 by pardaisi
Inzy should NOT have brought religion to the game, I dont hear anyone saying Lord or Jesus helped them win the game, praise the lord!
It is my pleasure to educate ignorant FOBS (Fresh off the Boat Sikhs) like you in the ways of your new country.
A few weeks back, Tony Dungy the Indianapolis Colts coach and Super Bowl champion said that ``God was responsible for the Colts` 29-17 victory against the Bears.`` In the brief presentation ceremony and the following news conference Dungy used the word ``Lord,`` ``God`` or ``Christian`` 10 times while referring to the Colts` success.
Rail Gaddi has left Ludhiana, you`re in North America now.... loosen the pug and enjoy the fresh air, sardar ji.
Inzy should NOT have brought religion to the game, I dont hear anyone saying Lord or Jesus helped them win the game, praise the lord!
It is my pleasure to educate ignorant FOBS (Fresh off the Boat Sikhs) like you in the ways of your new country.
A few weeks back, Tony Dungy the Indianapolis Colts coach and Super Bowl champion said that ``God was responsible for the Colts` 29-17 victory against the Bears.`` In the brief presentation ceremony and the following news conference Dungy used the word ``Lord,`` ``God`` or ``Christian`` 10 times while referring to the Colts` success.
Rail Gaddi has left Ludhiana, you`re in North America now.... loosen the pug and enjoy the fresh air, sardar ji.
#12 Posted by chaltahai on March 23, 2007 4:03:44 pm
Re: # 10 yeah but he didn;t go and strangle his GM after that :D
#13 Posted by hamidm2 on March 23, 2007 4:17:56 pm
who killed bob ?
......... bismillah-ur-rehman-ur-rahim........... i have a theory and inshallah, hangover permitting, i will expound on it tomorrow morning .......
#14 Posted by asfand on March 23, 2007 4:19:10 pm
``Pak cricket died at 3 am today. May its soul rest in peace. Funeral will be on March 21, after the match against Zimbabwe. Maulana Inzamam ul Haq Multani will lead the janaza prayer.``
This was a SMS messaget quited by Jawed Naqvi on Daily DAWN.
Similarly Indian cricket got killed by Sri Lankans today and that is due to all the boyz on the Paki side ``prayed`` to Allah and made dua that O Allah please let India lose so that we have some face saving when we return to Pakland.
Does Indian Cricket team Captain going to announce his retirement?
This was a SMS messaget quited by Jawed Naqvi on Daily DAWN.
Similarly Indian cricket got killed by Sri Lankans today and that is due to all the boyz on the Paki side ``prayed`` to Allah and made dua that O Allah please let India lose so that we have some face saving when we return to Pakland.
Does Indian Cricket team Captain going to announce his retirement?
#15 Posted by bulleya on March 23, 2007 4:32:55 pm
hmm......india lost, as well......and is out......that is really going to hurt the sponsors as cricket runs on money generated from india......
.......i think india, now, has bigger problems than pakistan, in cricket........four of pakistan`s key players were missing (shoaib, asif, razzaq and afridi).......so once the four players are back, pakistan should be back to normal........
......indian problems are not so straightforward........the whole indian team was fit.........traditionally, indian bowling is considered weak.........however, the bowlers did ok....indian batting, on paper, is the strongest in the world.......yet, it is the batting which failed.....
so, who will be dropped and what changes will be made.......dhoni and yuvraj failed miserably.......however, they are two of the most talented youngsters in the world.....so they cannot be dropped.......that leaves tendulkar, sehwag, dravid, ganguly.........sehwag was the future indian captain and is still young........can he be dropped?......ganguly has played well, after being dropped earlier.......can he be dropped?........dravid is still one of the best players in the world......and is still scoring.....so he is not going to be dropped.....nor will he resign, like inzi did........
this leaves tendulkar and the new guy uthapa.......uthapa is filling in a slot, which remains unfilled.......so dropping him isn`t going to change much.........does this mean, it is the end of the road for tendulkar`s one day career?.........
.......i think india, now, has bigger problems than pakistan, in cricket........four of pakistan`s key players were missing (shoaib, asif, razzaq and afridi).......so once the four players are back, pakistan should be back to normal........
......indian problems are not so straightforward........the whole indian team was fit.........traditionally, indian bowling is considered weak.........however, the bowlers did ok....indian batting, on paper, is the strongest in the world.......yet, it is the batting which failed.....
so, who will be dropped and what changes will be made.......dhoni and yuvraj failed miserably.......however, they are two of the most talented youngsters in the world.....so they cannot be dropped.......that leaves tendulkar, sehwag, dravid, ganguly.........sehwag was the future indian captain and is still young........can he be dropped?......ganguly has played well, after being dropped earlier.......can he be dropped?........dravid is still one of the best players in the world......and is still scoring.....so he is not going to be dropped.....nor will he resign, like inzi did........
this leaves tendulkar and the new guy uthapa.......uthapa is filling in a slot, which remains unfilled.......so dropping him isn`t going to change much.........does this mean, it is the end of the road for tendulkar`s one day career?.........
#16 Posted by anil on March 23, 2007 5:11:02 pm
Re: # 15
Romair:
I think so too. Indian Cricket has a major problem. Its problem is systemic that, it is less rewarding and more exploitative and bureaucratic.
India now has a center of gravity, should do major reorganization on the U.S. NFL basis. Let players be free-agents who can be sponsored by consortiums and league clubs purchase contracts for their service. Both of these acts will bring match fixing and gambling money into the system, as players` sponsors will get returns. This spectator sports business should be opened to all players from the world who can come and play and earn returns. Such spectator approach can be several billion dollars a year spectator sports.
Romair:
I think so too. Indian Cricket has a major problem. Its problem is systemic that, it is less rewarding and more exploitative and bureaucratic.
India now has a center of gravity, should do major reorganization on the U.S. NFL basis. Let players be free-agents who can be sponsored by consortiums and league clubs purchase contracts for their service. Both of these acts will bring match fixing and gambling money into the system, as players` sponsors will get returns. This spectator sports business should be opened to all players from the world who can come and play and earn returns. Such spectator approach can be several billion dollars a year spectator sports.
#17 Posted by vanguard on March 23, 2007 5:19:44 pm
NFP, I think you have lost it. After the earlier slightly ranting cum boring article, you came up with a cliched device of an interview to drive the same points that you so boringly raised in the earlier article.
Though Mohammad Gill also possesses an article churning machinery but at least they are on a different topic each time.
Can`t the Pakistani music industry take more of your diatribes. Or is it that you only specialize in flogging dead horses.
Though Mohammad Gill also possesses an article churning machinery but at least they are on a different topic each time.
Can`t the Pakistani music industry take more of your diatribes. Or is it that you only specialize in flogging dead horses.
#18 Posted by samb on March 23, 2007 6:03:20 pm
this article is in very, very poor taste especially considering that Bob was murdered and that the investigation is still ongoing. you should have restricted yourself to Inzi and the team. there`s no need to bring in Bob in this.
#20 Posted by subhashjoshi on March 23, 2007 7:11:03 pm
Re: # 13 hamidm
Urstruly`s rheory on other thread is good enough. Have a rest. Ek peg aur lagao hangover ke liye.
Urstruly`s rheory on other thread is good enough. Have a rest. Ek peg aur lagao hangover ke liye.
#22 Posted by Folio on March 23, 2007 7:19:36 pm
LOL. It`s hilarious.
Exressing sentiments is OK. Many people in sports does this. The effing Danis Kaneria does live pooja everytime takes a wicket. He looks really funny. May be it`s in Pak genes of this overt religious fervour!
Shivnarine Chandepaul does complete bow to the land whenever he made a century. Krish Srikkanth did repititive touching of his amulet and remembering Sun god. Goran Ivanisevic moves his hands in cross direction to say thanks to his god. Carl Hooper is a self-proclaimed Christain but I doubt he led his teammates to Sunday church service.
I hope that these religious nuts relinquish sports and become monks, mullahs and sanyasis.
People who enjoy Art Buchwald kinda pieces wud like this write-up. Laughter is the best medicine. LOL.
Exressing sentiments is OK. Many people in sports does this. The effing Danis Kaneria does live pooja everytime takes a wicket. He looks really funny. May be it`s in Pak genes of this overt religious fervour!
Shivnarine Chandepaul does complete bow to the land whenever he made a century. Krish Srikkanth did repititive touching of his amulet and remembering Sun god. Goran Ivanisevic moves his hands in cross direction to say thanks to his god. Carl Hooper is a self-proclaimed Christain but I doubt he led his teammates to Sunday church service.
I hope that these religious nuts relinquish sports and become monks, mullahs and sanyasis.
People who enjoy Art Buchwald kinda pieces wud like this write-up. Laughter is the best medicine. LOL.
#23 Posted by ballukhan on March 23, 2007 8:47:01 pm
That was hilarious.
I think NFP has hit the nail on the head. I agree, once you get too much focus onto divine providence and luck you stop working hard.
I think this too much focus on praising the almighty all the time leads to complacency. It makes one lazy and one just assumes that all the good things in life would just fall on their laps if they sit and pray all the time.
There is a deep theological tension with this concept of divine providence, divine will, prayers and one`s action that no mullah can resolve. It can be done only through one`s commonsense.
I have heard that Inzi had an argument with Bob because he refused to come for the practice session.
I think NFP has hit the nail on the head. I agree, once you get too much focus onto divine providence and luck you stop working hard.
I think this too much focus on praising the almighty all the time leads to complacency. It makes one lazy and one just assumes that all the good things in life would just fall on their laps if they sit and pray all the time.
There is a deep theological tension with this concept of divine providence, divine will, prayers and one`s action that no mullah can resolve. It can be done only through one`s commonsense.
I have heard that Inzi had an argument with Bob because he refused to come for the practice session.
#24 Posted by nb on March 23, 2007 10:38:31 pm
Re: # 10
Ali, you`re right, people say it all the time-and other people do laugh at them too! :)
Ali, you`re right, people say it all the time-and other people do laugh at them too! :)
#25 Posted by asfand on March 23, 2007 11:25:30 pm
Indian bookies are now chasing the Bangladesh players. I am sure huge offers are being made to Bangali players so that they lose against bermuda. This will enable India to compete in the next level super 8.
#26 Posted by supersize on March 24, 2007 2:14:12 am
This article captures well the ridiculous nature Pakistan cricket got into in the last many years. The last line ```` You are good Muslim. Here, have a Pepsi```` spot on hits on the contradiction Inzi and his team became.
#27 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on March 24, 2007 2:31:51 am
Paracha
Funny. Agree there are too many beards.
And not decent trimmed beards but wild growth with no end - like the Taliban.
This intentional display of religosity is quite a turn off.
NHK
#28 Posted by Pardesi on March 24, 2007 4:16:20 am
Re: # 10 Ali 1
``Rail Gaddi has left Ludhiana, you`re in North America now.... loosen the pug and enjoy the fresh air, sardar ji.``
Naujawan, pardaisi seems to be from your neighborhood. You might be confusing him with me :)
``Rail Gaddi has left Ludhiana, you`re in North America now.... loosen the pug and enjoy the fresh air, sardar ji.``
Naujawan, pardaisi seems to be from your neighborhood. You might be confusing him with me :)
#29 Posted by rf786 on March 24, 2007 4:44:18 am
NFP
Hilarious, great article.
On Bobs death....Inzi`s reply:
``Bismillah...Thanks to Allah, Boyzz played well``
Hilarious, great article.
On Bobs death....Inzi`s reply:
``Bismillah...Thanks to Allah, Boyzz played well``
#31 Posted by rf786 on March 24, 2007 5:05:25 am
Re: #10
Colts versus Bears? Both Amerikee, both Christian, both nothing to do with Cricket. So the Colts coach is another moron, atleast he has something to celebrate, unfortunately for Pakistan our coach is not in this world anymore. More importantly, did Jesus get paid for winning the match? I dont think so. Hiding behind Jesus or Mohammed doesnt change anything, what matters is professionalism and performance.
Colts versus Bears? Both Amerikee, both Christian, both nothing to do with Cricket. So the Colts coach is another moron, atleast he has something to celebrate, unfortunately for Pakistan our coach is not in this world anymore. More importantly, did Jesus get paid for winning the match? I dont think so. Hiding behind Jesus or Mohammed doesnt change anything, what matters is professionalism and performance.
#32 Posted by nasah on March 24, 2007 7:53:09 am
The prayer disease afflicts equally well the subcontinent along the Iodine deficient belt that extends on both sides of the borders from Peshawar to Dhaka along the Grand Trunk Road -- even Hitler ( now Hitler can be quoted in civilized company thanks to our George Bush era) had complained about the subcontinent being a perpetual praying machine.
Hindus despite their myriads of simian and elephantine multiple armed multiple legged gods and godesses can seprate religion from sports and from science and from software business -- but for the poor insecure Pakistani hypothyroid cretins -- verbal Islam is like a crack addiction -- it binds every cell every fiber of their bodies and souls in a convulsive rigor mortis if it is not invoked and ingested on time.
religion is such an obssession with the stupid naive Pakistanis -- they can`t even fart without invoking Islam 5 times.
Finally God of Islam got so tired being pestered day and night by the pesky Pakistanis pests for such small things like cricket championships -- He not only made them lose to the Insignificant Irish -- He killed their coach as well -- ``nu rahega baaNs nu bajegi baaNsuree``.
Hindus despite their myriads of simian and elephantine multiple armed multiple legged gods and godesses can seprate religion from sports and from science and from software business -- but for the poor insecure Pakistani hypothyroid cretins -- verbal Islam is like a crack addiction -- it binds every cell every fiber of their bodies and souls in a convulsive rigor mortis if it is not invoked and ingested on time.
religion is such an obssession with the stupid naive Pakistanis -- they can`t even fart without invoking Islam 5 times.
Finally God of Islam got so tired being pestered day and night by the pesky Pakistanis pests for such small things like cricket championships -- He not only made them lose to the Insignificant Irish -- He killed their coach as well -- ``nu rahega baaNs nu bajegi baaNsuree``.
#33 Posted by nasah on March 24, 2007 9:41:47 am
btw Paracha sahib thanks for a great cricket interview with that potbellied beehive-bearded Maulana Inzimamulhaque Multani on his prayer rug playing field.
#34 Posted by Folio on March 24, 2007 2:47:20 pm
IF, the breaking news is true then the overtly religious Mullah Inzi and Mullah Mustaq are just another bunch of hypocrites who killed Bob. Religiosity is not imparting any virtues here, it seems.
IFF the news is true then that`s the lowest the Pak cricket team as well as Pakistan can go.
IFF the news is true then that`s the lowest the Pak cricket team as well as Pakistan can go.
#35 Posted by sr56 on March 24, 2007 3:51:45 pm
NFP, you`re article is in extremely bad taste.
It wasn`t funny just sick.
The whole world and it`s wife are mourning Bob`s sad demise but NFP here decides to write a satire poking fun!
It wasn`t funny just sick.
The whole world and it`s wife are mourning Bob`s sad demise but NFP here decides to write a satire poking fun!
#36 Posted by kiranNY on March 24, 2007 6:19:44 pm
Preety funny....well i think since all crickters talked about Islam..they should have won the match then..it`s like insulting the religion...man god knows wat`s wrong with ppl..Allah won`t help his ppl until his ppl will helpthemselves.....wake up ..helllo...
#37 Posted by drantivirus on March 25, 2007 1:59:56 am
NFP seems to have some serious grudge against Raiwind`s Tableeghi jamat.. i really feel sorry for NFP for mocky someone`s relegious, i guess its the only thing he does whenever he`s tense ...had the team performed well ,nobody would have associated them with tableegh
#38 Posted by ballukhan on March 25, 2007 5:50:27 am
I would not be surprised if Tableeghi Jamaat bookies are involved in Bob woolmer`s murder.
#39 Posted by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 6:46:21 am
........ this ignominious loss is yet another nail in al-lah mian`s coffin - he is dead and should now be buried with some dignity along with his favourite prophet ! ...........
........... look at the state of the ummah from morocco to indonesia - politically, economically and socially they are getting their prayer-raised butts whopped by everyone from the puny isrealis to the dal-eating hindoos ............ and now al-lah`s mighty cricket team gets buggered by the followers of a little known prophet whose sole claim to fame has been driving out snakes from a little island - no visits to heaven or splitting the moon like mo of mecca ......... what more proof do we need that we have been worshiping a false god ? ....... even if he is a real god, it is clear that al-lah mian and mo are no match for st paddy, jesus son of mary, hanuman the monkey king, and the black lady from the bronx who can tell your future and cure your gout for twenty dollars ...... it is time we dumped these imposters and hitched our wagon to someone who is more competent .......
#40 Posted by subhashjoshi on March 25, 2007 7:58:51 am
Re: # 39 hamidm
Hanumanji bhi fail ho gaye, janaab. Henceforth, FSM will be my god.
Hanumanji bhi fail ho gaye, janaab. Henceforth, FSM will be my god.
#41 Posted by subhashjoshi on March 25, 2007 8:06:29 am
Could someone check this please:
I read this at http://forum.classicalarchives.com/messages/1000/1001.html?1172486092
The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
Is this a correct quote from Koran?
I read this at http://forum.classicalarchives.com/messages/1000/1001.html?1172486092
The following verse is from the Koran, (the Islamic Bible)
Koran (9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.
Is this a correct quote from Koran?
#42 Posted by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 9:45:44 am
......... before some muslim with a bruised forehead and calloused ankles jumps out of his shalwar to ptotest that al-lah mian has nothing to do with cricket and other such mundane things, i would like to tell him if that is true then he should stop invoking his name everytime he and his friends pick up a cricket bat or pass gas .......... it is sickening to watch these people preface everything with bismillah and inshallah if they really don`t think al-lah mian is not interested in their silly antics on the field .......... stop it !........ this nonsensical arabic gibberish is extremely irritating ! ......... let`s use `gesundheit` and `shalom` like other civilized people (and you there!... stop clasping your hands and muttering nonsense in sanskrit or whatever - that is just as disgusting as sallamo`laikuming all over the place)
#43 Posted by shandana on March 25, 2007 10:33:12 am
actually, this was pretty funny. i mean i read it, and then a few minutes later i started grinning. i`m grinning right now, even! whats that smell though? huh? what..? shit!?? i set fire to my shirt! frikkin cherries!??
#44 Posted by anil on March 25, 2007 12:19:48 pm
Re: # 42
Shanti, shanti, Hamidm sahib. Itna gussa Hamidm sahib ko kyon aata hai?
Shanti, shanti, Hamidm sahib. Itna gussa Hamidm sahib ko kyon aata hai?
#45 Posted by sadiarizwan on March 25, 2007 12:24:52 pm
There is a thin line between constructive cynicism and criticizing for the sake of criticism. This article surely doesn`t observe any such boundaries and limitations. Mr. Paracha goes on and on about influence of `mullaism` over cricket until it ceases to be funny. Now, I am not a `mulla` supporter and frankly, quite disappointed by Pakistan`s defeat. However, none of it justifies the above article.
#46 Posted by bjkumar on March 25, 2007 1:34:17 pm
Interviewer: Hello Baaghi …
Baaghi: Bismillah-ur-Rehman-ur-Rahim … first, thanks to Almighty Allah for this interview and …
Interviewer: Of course … so tell us, what made you write this admittedly funny crap?
Baaghi: Bismillah-ur-Rehman-ur-Rahim … firstly, thanks to Almighty Allah, the team went flop …
Interviewer: You mean they lost …
Baaghi: No, they went flop …
Interviewer: Okay, but they did not play well …
Baaghi: No, they went flop – because it matches better with my next line which goes – then Bob went plop…
Interviewer: Right. Now, can we talk about the write-up for a change?
Baaghi: Why?
Interviewer: What do you mean, why? You’re a chowk writer!
Baaghi: Bismillah-ur-Rehman-ur-Rahim, mostly thanks to my existential angst …
Interviewer: That happened many years ago.
Baaghi: Yes, I know … I also learn math in order to carry out a perfect foil …
Interviewer: Right. So, what went wrong with this write-up?
Baaghi: I came out of my existential hiding …
Interviewer: And...
Baaghi: I needed somebody’s hide …
Interviewer: And just then, Bob died…!
Baaghi: You see the magic of the rhyme, too!
Interviewer: I don’t care how it rhymes, tell me why you picked one person’s tragic ending to take a jab at the inadequacies of another? Why were you so spineless?
Baaghi: Writers don’t have spine. Thanks to Almighty Allah, satirists are writers, too!
Interviewer: So, about the write-up. What went wrong?
Baaghi: Bob died.
Interviewer: Yes, but the poor chap died after you guys crashed out of the World Cup.
Baaghi: Very unfortunate his death … very unfortunate. I think it was lack of a sense of history and socio-political purpose.
Interviewer: Baaghi, you are talking matha-phore-ically.
Baaghi: Mathaas are haraam. Look what happened to the Beej?
Interviewer: What happened to the Beej?
Baaghi: He died.
Interviewer: I thought he was killed.
Baaghi: No, you nonsense!
Interviewer: Sigh. Okay, tell us what was you biggest achievement in this write-up?
Baaghi: Good talk, good talk … we boys say Karma …
Interviewer: You mean, as in singing the bhajan!
Baaghi: Yes, yes, I like aloo ki bhaaji also, especially with Paracha, I mean paratha …
Interviewer: What nonsense!
Baaghi: No, no nonsense … if aaloo, I mean Laloo, become Muslim, Pakistan surely inshallah, mahshalla win cup!
Interviewer: But…
Baaghi: Exactly. But for the cut…!!
Interviewer: Baaghi, sorry to say this, but for long it has been noticed that with all this capitalism-gaining-ground and capitalism-bashing-going-nowhere happening, you and some of your chowk boys have started to lose not only your verbiage and form, but your grip on reality as well …
Baaghi: Are you saying my boys are indecent? Firstly, thanks to its management, all boys now naik and clean and decent …
Interviewer: And it’s not even your usual write-up anymore. It has been taken over, mauled, finished!
Baaghi: No, only you gone – the cynical sell-out and glorifier of mediocrity!
Interviewer: But you guys are paid to write, not to bite.
Baaghi: No, only you – you deluded recluse!
Interviewer: Never mind. Thank you for talking to me, Baaghi. And good luck.
Baaghi: No, thanks to The Arousal and the Almighty Allah …
Interviewer: Yes, him too.
Baaghi: You are good muffin!
Interviewer: Here, have a Pepto-Bismal!
#47 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 25, 2007 1:36:25 pm
Re: # 41
Koran 9:11 actually reads:
[9.11] But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.
Koran 9:11 actually reads:
[9.11] But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.
#48 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 25, 2007 1:38:06 pm
hamidm i have never met anyone who hates themselves as much as you do. you must seriously have been abused as a child to display such an inferiority complex.
#49 Posted by zeemax on March 25, 2007 2:14:13 pm
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#50 Posted by zeemax on March 25, 2007 2:41:42 pm
#49 was filtered perhaps due to a misunderstanding. Hamidm quoted that incident himself ...
#51 Posted by tahmed32 on March 25, 2007 3:23:33 pm
Naqshbandi: Hamidm I think deliberately overstretches here (i.e. into Shalom and Gesundheit) in order to make an important point: Allah does not need us to reassure Him we are thinking of Him every time we, e.g., go to do batting (as in this case). And to think such reassurances (not to mention more overt forms of bribery like sacrificing a lamb) will cause Him to over-ride the Law amounts to reducing him to the level of, say, a Patwari.
I have no problem with tradition. But in Pakistan we have gone too far because we have reduced islam to mere voodoo magic , and thus replaced responsible behavior (e.g. playing cricket without taking drugs, or doing proper maintenance on airlines, or having no individual above the law) with gimmicks (i.e. chanting Allahs name when going in to bat in case of cricket; chanting Allah`s name before a PIA flight, and chanting Allah`s name and ignoring the constitution).
I have no problem with tradition. But in Pakistan we have gone too far because we have reduced islam to mere voodoo magic , and thus replaced responsible behavior (e.g. playing cricket without taking drugs, or doing proper maintenance on airlines, or having no individual above the law) with gimmicks (i.e. chanting Allahs name when going in to bat in case of cricket; chanting Allah`s name before a PIA flight, and chanting Allah`s name and ignoring the constitution).
#52 Posted by dryiabbasi on March 25, 2007 3:34:30 pm
I don`t think is should be anybodies business if someone wants to be religious or not, it`s entierly their choice. There are numerous sportspersons in every sport who thank there God after a victory. Those who don`t know this need to read more.
Personally I am disappointed with Mr Paracha`s mock interview. We still have a colonial mindset where English is a standard to judge the goodness of a person. Why do we really need to speak English? Most Europeans, Koreans, Japanese, Turkish etc do not KNOW and do not WANT to speak in English, then why is it so important to us? To make fun of some one on his ability to speak a second language is really in bad taste !!!
Personally I am disappointed with Mr Paracha`s mock interview. We still have a colonial mindset where English is a standard to judge the goodness of a person. Why do we really need to speak English? Most Europeans, Koreans, Japanese, Turkish etc do not KNOW and do not WANT to speak in English, then why is it so important to us? To make fun of some one on his ability to speak a second language is really in bad taste !!!
#53 Posted by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 3:53:14 pm
Re: # 51
tahmed,
............ thank you for your understanding,
............ look, i have nothing against soft-headed individuals practicing their silly superstitions as long as they don`t turn it into a mass obsession that leads people to blow themselves up or commit mass suicide ....... there was absolutely nothing wrong with jim jones and his followers splattering themseves with chicken blood and dancing around the fire, but you will agree that the jonestown mass murder and suicide was taking it a bit too far .......... similarly, if inzimam and the other mullahs on the team wanted to make fools out of themselves five times a day it is fine by me, but they have no right to shove their religiosity into the faces of spectators, fans and innocent bystanders ......... i wouldn`t be at all surprised if one of these bearded fools killed poor bob because they heard a voice telling them to do it !
........... to your point, i stopped flying pia when the pilots handed over control to al-lah and the fat stewardesses began to grow moustaches .........
tahmed,
............ thank you for your understanding,
............ look, i have nothing against soft-headed individuals practicing their silly superstitions as long as they don`t turn it into a mass obsession that leads people to blow themselves up or commit mass suicide ....... there was absolutely nothing wrong with jim jones and his followers splattering themseves with chicken blood and dancing around the fire, but you will agree that the jonestown mass murder and suicide was taking it a bit too far .......... similarly, if inzimam and the other mullahs on the team wanted to make fools out of themselves five times a day it is fine by me, but they have no right to shove their religiosity into the faces of spectators, fans and innocent bystanders ......... i wouldn`t be at all surprised if one of these bearded fools killed poor bob because they heard a voice telling them to do it !
........... to your point, i stopped flying pia when the pilots handed over control to al-lah and the fat stewardesses began to grow moustaches .........
#54 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2007 4:21:31 pm
hamidm2
People do and say such things to reassure themselves and to motivate others. So there may be clear benefits to all. Fact is, even the most reassured and motivated people may sometimes fail. Such failure implies nothing about specific beliefs. :)
The assumption here is that the said beliefs and words do not engender a negative personal and/or social dynamic, in which case, in time, `bad` consequences will accompany `good` ones.
People do and say such things to reassure themselves and to motivate others. So there may be clear benefits to all. Fact is, even the most reassured and motivated people may sometimes fail. Such failure implies nothing about specific beliefs. :)
The assumption here is that the said beliefs and words do not engender a negative personal and/or social dynamic, in which case, in time, `bad` consequences will accompany `good` ones.
#55 Posted by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 4:57:04 pm
Re: # 54
kaal,
........... i agree that ``Such failure implies nothing about specific beliefs`` ........ however, i would also add `unbeliefs`........... i will accept the fact that there are some unintended `good` consequences of such beliefs but, by and large, religion has been a curse for mankind ........ it is an ill wind and even iller when it blows from the deserts of the mid-east (inspite if my derision for the horrible hindoos, i find their silly beliefs to be somewhat less harmful than christianity and islam)
kaal,
........... i agree that ``Such failure implies nothing about specific beliefs`` ........ however, i would also add `unbeliefs`........... i will accept the fact that there are some unintended `good` consequences of such beliefs but, by and large, religion has been a curse for mankind ........ it is an ill wind and even iller when it blows from the deserts of the mid-east (inspite if my derision for the horrible hindoos, i find their silly beliefs to be somewhat less harmful than christianity and islam)
#56 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2007 5:04:50 pm
hamidm2
LOL, OK. In the silliness of our religious beliefs, it is true, we have a permanent hold on the World Cup. :)
LOL, OK. In the silliness of our religious beliefs, it is true, we have a permanent hold on the World Cup. :)
#57 Posted by bulleya on March 25, 2007 5:19:43 pm
Could it actually be that enough people in the team did not have beards.......As opposed to too many having beards........The following facts would indicated the former:
1. Inzi started growing out his beard after becoming captain..........Ever since he has become the captain (with a beard), with a very new and young team mind you, he has had the highest ODI batting average of any captain in the world.......At 44+, he is ahead of all non-bearded captains, Ponting and Dravid included.......
2. Yusuf (Yohana) started growing out his beard, after converting to Islam.......Ever since then, he has risen to the top of the world`s batting charts........behind only the non-bearded Ponting........Yusuf`s rating is the highest ever by any Pakistani.......Higher than the clean-shaved Miandad, Hanif etc.........In the process, Yusuf, broke the record for the most runs in a year and most 100s in a year, held by the great Viv Richards (who by the way also has a beard)
3. The third most prominent soul on the Pakistani team with a beard is coach Mushtaq Ahmad......In his pre-beard days, Mushtaq was rolling around aimlessly in county and domestic cricket......Lo and behold, he grows a beard and, since then, has been the top wicket-taker in country cricket over the past three years......In his clean-shave days, he was never top in anything.......
4. Afridi, after romaing around endlessly, started growing a beard.......All of a sudden, his numbers went up so high that, for the first time, he became a regular member of both the ODI and Test squad.......Then he shaved his beard and his averages fell.....thereby losing his place in the Test and ODI squad........Now he is growing it out again, and is back in the ODI squad.......I think, once it gets a little longer, his Test numbers will improve also.......
Now, lets look at how the non-bearded, clean-shaven guys are doing:
- Shoaib and Asif - out of the team on drug use
- Razzaq: broke his leg (if he had a beard, there is it possible that he would not have broken his le?)
- Openers: Not a single one has a beard, and not a single one has been able to do anything.....(though Imran Nazir has started growing out one, last week, and immediately got a record 160 against Zimbabwe)
- Kaneria: He has been doing fine, but he is not a Muslim, hence the beard rule does not apply to him......
The only non-bearded player to have some success, is Yunis Khan........Hence the conclusion is that more players have to have beards, not less.......
1. Inzi started growing out his beard after becoming captain..........Ever since he has become the captain (with a beard), with a very new and young team mind you, he has had the highest ODI batting average of any captain in the world.......At 44+, he is ahead of all non-bearded captains, Ponting and Dravid included.......
2. Yusuf (Yohana) started growing out his beard, after converting to Islam.......Ever since then, he has risen to the top of the world`s batting charts........behind only the non-bearded Ponting........Yusuf`s rating is the highest ever by any Pakistani.......Higher than the clean-shaved Miandad, Hanif etc.........In the process, Yusuf, broke the record for the most runs in a year and most 100s in a year, held by the great Viv Richards (who by the way also has a beard)
3. The third most prominent soul on the Pakistani team with a beard is coach Mushtaq Ahmad......In his pre-beard days, Mushtaq was rolling around aimlessly in county and domestic cricket......Lo and behold, he grows a beard and, since then, has been the top wicket-taker in country cricket over the past three years......In his clean-shave days, he was never top in anything.......
4. Afridi, after romaing around endlessly, started growing a beard.......All of a sudden, his numbers went up so high that, for the first time, he became a regular member of both the ODI and Test squad.......Then he shaved his beard and his averages fell.....thereby losing his place in the Test and ODI squad........Now he is growing it out again, and is back in the ODI squad.......I think, once it gets a little longer, his Test numbers will improve also.......
Now, lets look at how the non-bearded, clean-shaven guys are doing:
- Shoaib and Asif - out of the team on drug use
- Razzaq: broke his leg (if he had a beard, there is it possible that he would not have broken his le?)
- Openers: Not a single one has a beard, and not a single one has been able to do anything.....(though Imran Nazir has started growing out one, last week, and immediately got a record 160 against Zimbabwe)
- Kaneria: He has been doing fine, but he is not a Muslim, hence the beard rule does not apply to him......
The only non-bearded player to have some success, is Yunis Khan........Hence the conclusion is that more players have to have beards, not less.......
#58 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2007 5:31:23 pm
bulleya, that is a solid, fact-based argument. The only way to refute it (if your facts are correct) is that while beards improved personal scores, they made the challenge of everybody working together, and pulling together as a seamless team harder. Of course, that may or may not be true.
#59 Posted by ujjiz on March 25, 2007 6:17:11 pm
so they keep beards for modesty and thank God, big deal.
very intellectual ppl here.
very intellectual ppl here.
#60 Posted by bjkumar on March 25, 2007 6:50:56 pm
#58
| Solid, Fact-based Proofs of Successful People with Beard | |
| Sri Hamidm |  |
| Sri Kaura |  |
| Sri Tauheed |  |
| Sri Kaal (a bit short) |  |
| Sri Burpinder |  |
| Sri Subroto |  |
| Sri U-no-Hu |  |
| Sri Folio |  |
| Sri Chauhan |  |
| Sri Paracha |  |
| Sri Gopinath |  |
#61 Posted by dost_mittar on March 25, 2007 7:12:50 pm
hamidm2:
I just watched an amazing interview at CBS 60 minutes of a 26 year old British ex-jihadi. It is at: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/23/60minutes/main2602308.shtml
Some excerpts:
``He became one of the network’s star fundraisers. Over the next couple of years, he says he raised $300,000.
His biggest contributors? ``Doctors. People who were businessmen. Professional people basically who wanted to donate substantial amounts of money,`` Butt tells Simon.
Butt says he openly told them he was raising funds for Jihad.``
And I was thinking of some of my moderate friends at chowk when I heard him say the following:
`` The position of moderate Muslims is that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. Do you buy that?`` Simon asks.
``No, absolutely not. By completely being in denial about it`s like an alcoholic basically. Unless an alcoholic acknowledges that he has a problem with alcohol, he`s never gonna be able to go forward,`` Butt argues. ``And as long as we, as Muslims, do not acknowledge that there is a violent streak in Islam, unless we acknowledge that, then we are gonna always lose the battle to the militants, by being in complete denial about it.``
This is very similar to my very first interact at chowk some 8-9 years ago. I had then stated that Hindu reformers did not fight Sati by saying that it is against Hindu religion (if they had, they would have been defeated by the protagonists of Sati of whom there were many 100 years ago!) but by fighting against it. Similarly, moderate Muslims will never win against jihadis as long as they keep in denial that there are certain things that need to be condemned regardless of whether or not they are permissible in Islam.
I just watched an amazing interview at CBS 60 minutes of a 26 year old British ex-jihadi. It is at: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/23/60minutes/main2602308.shtml
Some excerpts:
``He became one of the network’s star fundraisers. Over the next couple of years, he says he raised $300,000.
His biggest contributors? ``Doctors. People who were businessmen. Professional people basically who wanted to donate substantial amounts of money,`` Butt tells Simon.
Butt says he openly told them he was raising funds for Jihad.``
And I was thinking of some of my moderate friends at chowk when I heard him say the following:
`` The position of moderate Muslims is that Islam has nothing to do with terrorism. Do you buy that?`` Simon asks.
``No, absolutely not. By completely being in denial about it`s like an alcoholic basically. Unless an alcoholic acknowledges that he has a problem with alcohol, he`s never gonna be able to go forward,`` Butt argues. ``And as long as we, as Muslims, do not acknowledge that there is a violent streak in Islam, unless we acknowledge that, then we are gonna always lose the battle to the militants, by being in complete denial about it.``
This is very similar to my very first interact at chowk some 8-9 years ago. I had then stated that Hindu reformers did not fight Sati by saying that it is against Hindu religion (if they had, they would have been defeated by the protagonists of Sati of whom there were many 100 years ago!) but by fighting against it. Similarly, moderate Muslims will never win against jihadis as long as they keep in denial that there are certain things that need to be condemned regardless of whether or not they are permissible in Islam.
#62 Posted by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 8:06:00 pm
Re: # 61
dost-mittar,
........... i agree with you 100% and that is what i keep on trying to tell nice, well-meaning but hopelessly naive moderate muslims like tahmed ........``moderate Muslims will never win against jihadis as long as they keep in denial that there are certain things that need to be condemned regardless of whether or not they are permissible in Islam`` .............. sometimes you just have to throw out the baby with the bath water - the baby will be a little bruised and shaken but it will survive (unfortunatley, as far as i am concerned)
dost-mittar,
........... i agree with you 100% and that is what i keep on trying to tell nice, well-meaning but hopelessly naive moderate muslims like tahmed ........``moderate Muslims will never win against jihadis as long as they keep in denial that there are certain things that need to be condemned regardless of whether or not they are permissible in Islam`` .............. sometimes you just have to throw out the baby with the bath water - the baby will be a little bruised and shaken but it will survive (unfortunatley, as far as i am concerned)
#63 Posted by burpinder on March 26, 2007 12:16:38 am
Bad bad piece.
NFP, I think the shock of the defeat and Woolmer`s death and pushed you over the edge. This is terrible- not funny in the least.
Pity...it could have been so good.
NFP, I think the shock of the defeat and Woolmer`s death and pushed you over the edge. This is terrible- not funny in the least.
Pity...it could have been so good.
#64 Posted by rf786 on March 26, 2007 12:31:17 am
Re: # 57
Bulleya Sahib,
Beard per se may not be the culprit, but surely the mindset behind it is the real culprit. You have made some very interesting statistical comments, to which I quote from Navjot Sidhu:
``Statistics are like miniskirts, they reveal more than what they hide``
1. Yes its true Inzi has a better batting average as captain when compared to other captains, but what u did not mention is that Ricky Ponting`s Australian team has a much much better track record when compared to Inzimam`s Pakistani team. As we all know, cricket is a team sport, not an individuals game. Another way to assess Inzi batting performance is the steady downhill decline in performance, whatever averages he has are from his younger and beardless days and the stats quoted by u r dependent upon performances on flat tarcks of the sub-continent with sub-standard teams.
2. Mohd Yusuf (Moyo) or Yusuf Yuhana was always the same brilliant batsman that he is today. His bearded performance no doubt exceptional and remarkable but was made possible because he finally came to terms with his religious conversion. Another angle to this theory, these Tablighees deprived Pakistan and the world of cricket the excellence of that batsman for three years when he was undergoing religious indoctrination and great social turmoil. Just imagine, had he been left alone to concnentrate on cricket only? Then again that wud be another algorithmic exercise of simulation.
3. Mushtaq Ahmed or MiniMe, take your pick. The only reason he is the Asst Coach now caretaker is because of his friendship with Inzimam. County cricket cannot be compared to international cricket nor does it provide any statistical relevance for players performance. English players have always been weak against leg spin thus the seemingly improved performance by Mushtaq Ahmed with the beard. Count cricket has many overseas or foreign players Without Beards, you have failed to mention their performance.
Bulleya Sahib,
Beard per se may not be the culprit, but surely the mindset behind it is the real culprit. You have made some very interesting statistical comments, to which I quote from Navjot Sidhu:
``Statistics are like miniskirts, they reveal more than what they hide``
1. Yes its true Inzi has a better batting average as captain when compared to other captains, but what u did not mention is that Ricky Ponting`s Australian team has a much much better track record when compared to Inzimam`s Pakistani team. As we all know, cricket is a team sport, not an individuals game. Another way to assess Inzi batting performance is the steady downhill decline in performance, whatever averages he has are from his younger and beardless days and the stats quoted by u r dependent upon performances on flat tarcks of the sub-continent with sub-standard teams.
2. Mohd Yusuf (Moyo) or Yusuf Yuhana was always the same brilliant batsman that he is today. His bearded performance no doubt exceptional and remarkable but was made possible because he finally came to terms with his religious conversion. Another angle to this theory, these Tablighees deprived Pakistan and the world of cricket the excellence of that batsman for three years when he was undergoing religious indoctrination and great social turmoil. Just imagine, had he been left alone to concnentrate on cricket only? Then again that wud be another algorithmic exercise of simulation.
3. Mushtaq Ahmed or MiniMe, take your pick. The only reason he is the Asst Coach now caretaker is because of his friendship with Inzimam. County cricket cannot be compared to international cricket nor does it provide any statistical relevance for players performance. English players have always been weak against leg spin thus the seemingly improved performance by Mushtaq Ahmed with the beard. Count cricket has many overseas or foreign players Without Beards, you have failed to mention their performance.
#65 Posted by pundit on March 26, 2007 12:44:04 am
#62 by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 8:06pm PT
Re: # 61
dost-mittar,
........... i agree with you 100% and that is what i keep on trying to tell nice, well-meaning but hopelessly naive moderate muslims like tahmed ........``moderate Muslims will never win against jihadis as long as they keep in denial that there are certain things that need to be condemned regardless of whether or not they are permissible in Islam``
You two appear to be seriously delinquent in your knowledge of history and politics.
This is the first instance in the Muslim history that fanatics, not orthodox have taken control of the political landscape in the Muslim world. The Muslim fanatics have blindsided the moderate Muslims and the western media is playing that up for its own political and territorial goals.
Barring the first few years of Islam, political leadership of the Muslims had always been moderate. The Umayyads or the Abbasids in Baghdad and the Umayyads in Spain were not fanatics. The Mughals and the rulers before them were not fanatics. Some rulers might have been more orthodox than the others but mostly they maintained a moderate polity. The Sassanids, or the other Persians rulers were not fanatics by any means. The Turkish Empire was perhaps the most secular administration in the Muslim world. However, some of them did use Islam when politically expedient. They were many movements sponsored by fanatics in Islam but that is not uncommon in other religions too.
Why the fanatics control the debate in the Islamic world can be rationalized in several ways but it mostly has to do with the general political conditions in the Islamic world which is controlled by the moderate Muslims in every country.
The moderate leadership in the Islamic countries avoids liberalism and modernism like plague thus allowing the fanatics to become the only alternate for the political opposition. The fanatics have also used sensationalism and other means such as terrorism to place the average Muslim on the defensive.
Many things have to happen to change the control of the political debate in the Muslim world. Such as:
1. The governing coalitions in the Muslim world should be encouraged to embrace liberal policies.
2. A culture of tolerance, promotion of cultural values not derived from Islam and education at all levels will need enormous encouragement from people around the world.
All this requires sustained efforts as change does not happen overnight.
The moderate Muslims will win the dialog because history is on their side. Any effort to force the issue militarily or through calling people evil doers will not work. As we see now in Iraq and Afghanistan.
#66 Posted by baaghiraja on March 26, 2007 1:17:53 am
Some people loved this piece and some totally hated it. There seem to be no in-betweens. It has had a remarkably polarizing effect … quite like religion. :)
But mind you, I too have a beard, if not as divine as Inzi’s or as fancy as the ones shown by Sir bjkumar (#60). Lovely.
NfP
But mind you, I too have a beard, if not as divine as Inzi’s or as fancy as the ones shown by Sir bjkumar (#60). Lovely.
NfP
#67 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2007 3:00:14 am
I felt Bob`s death is only incidental to this piece and is not THE subject of this piece. I wonder why people are making such a song and dance about it.
#68 Posted by Love2love on March 26, 2007 5:31:51 am
#67
Exactly. Pakistanis needed a hero from the ashes of this world cup and Woolmer’s sad demise gave them one. Woolmer is incidental here, and Paracha actually sympathizes with him by alluding how terrible it would have been for Bob to be caught in Inzamam’s Raiwindism.
Exactly. Pakistanis needed a hero from the ashes of this world cup and Woolmer’s sad demise gave them one. Woolmer is incidental here, and Paracha actually sympathizes with him by alluding how terrible it would have been for Bob to be caught in Inzamam’s Raiwindism.
#69 Posted by goonga on March 26, 2007 5:45:50 am
Why I wanted to read this as follows:
Interviewer: But what about the boys’ cricket and form? Not very clean and decent.
Inzi: Yes not clean and decent uniform, it should be black and white or a sword or kalma on it.
Interviewer: But what about the boys’ cricket and form? Not very clean and decent.
Inzi: Yes not clean and decent uniform, it should be black and white or a sword or kalma on it.
#70 Posted by tahmed32 on March 26, 2007 6:31:02 am
hamidm/dost mittar: greetings my friends (good to see dost mittar on chowk after a long time). your saying ``Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.
Islam didnt create the seven deadly sins - not to mention illiteracy, poverty, disease, military coups, corruption, abuse of women, abuse of the poor - and just saying ``Islam is the solution`` is not going to solve them. If you chose not to understand this basic point, then you are just as determined in pushing your claim that ``Islam is the problem`` as the mullah is in claiming that ``Islam is the solution``.
btw, check out the video on Pakistan on the nyt website today.
The General vs the Housewife
Islam didnt create the seven deadly sins - not to mention illiteracy, poverty, disease, military coups, corruption, abuse of women, abuse of the poor - and just saying ``Islam is the solution`` is not going to solve them. If you chose not to understand this basic point, then you are just as determined in pushing your claim that ``Islam is the problem`` as the mullah is in claiming that ``Islam is the solution``.
btw, check out the video on Pakistan on the nyt website today.
The General vs the Housewife
#71 Posted by dost_mittar on March 26, 2007 7:44:57 am
pandit#67 (and tahmed32):
You are right in the sense that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not wake up in the morning shouting takbir with swords in their hands. Most Muslims, like any other people, are tolerant, non-violent and peaceful citizens of their countries - always have been and probably always will. But a constellation of geo-political factors, globalisation and Internet have brought Islam -and thereby Muslims- into focus as never before. Muslims in places like Bosnia, Chechnya, Indonesia, Thailand and Phillipines who were always well integrated in their respected society and cultures are suddenly discovering that they are part of an ummah and being asked to pay allegiance to it.
The Muslim world is facing an unprecedented external and internal turmoil. Externally, Islam is being scrutinised as never before and enemies of Islam are eagerly searching in the quran and ahadith for any evidence of associating Islam and its prophet with violence and backwardness. Internally, Muslims are facing tremendous pressures, especially from Wahabis. I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.
I think that the moderates can win the battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims as long as they use rational arguments and commonly accepted human values to advance their cause but when, instead of regardless, they add qualifiers such as ``and this is also the true message of the quran``, they enter right into the Mullahs` den from which they generally come out bloodied and wounded. The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran with reference not only to dozens of the ahadith but also to history and to other prophets and their holy books.
I also think that the battle will be fought perhaps most vigorously in Pakistan where you have a influential civil society and a strong madrassa culture of the fundamentalist type, vying for the hearts and minds of a basically tolerant people whose emotional attachment to Islam can however be easily exploited. Thus, you have a free, open discussions, music videos, etc. on TV while at the same time a taleban-type set-up emerging in the Frontier region.
You are right in the sense that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not wake up in the morning shouting takbir with swords in their hands. Most Muslims, like any other people, are tolerant, non-violent and peaceful citizens of their countries - always have been and probably always will. But a constellation of geo-political factors, globalisation and Internet have brought Islam -and thereby Muslims- into focus as never before. Muslims in places like Bosnia, Chechnya, Indonesia, Thailand and Phillipines who were always well integrated in their respected society and cultures are suddenly discovering that they are part of an ummah and being asked to pay allegiance to it.
The Muslim world is facing an unprecedented external and internal turmoil. Externally, Islam is being scrutinised as never before and enemies of Islam are eagerly searching in the quran and ahadith for any evidence of associating Islam and its prophet with violence and backwardness. Internally, Muslims are facing tremendous pressures, especially from Wahabis. I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.
I think that the moderates can win the battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims as long as they use rational arguments and commonly accepted human values to advance their cause but when, instead of regardless, they add qualifiers such as ``and this is also the true message of the quran``, they enter right into the Mullahs` den from which they generally come out bloodied and wounded. The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran with reference not only to dozens of the ahadith but also to history and to other prophets and their holy books.
I also think that the battle will be fought perhaps most vigorously in Pakistan where you have a influential civil society and a strong madrassa culture of the fundamentalist type, vying for the hearts and minds of a basically tolerant people whose emotional attachment to Islam can however be easily exploited. Thus, you have a free, open discussions, music videos, etc. on TV while at the same time a taleban-type set-up emerging in the Frontier region.
#72 Posted by dost_mittar on March 26, 2007 8:00:44 am
tahmed#70:
````Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.
...But when one seeks to justify every statement by saying that it is in conformity with Islam, one seems to be interested more in the defence of Islam that the cause one is espousing. As I said, this is entering Mullah`s territory and dangerous. If a cause is desirable, it should not need the seal of approval of any book.
````Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.
...But when one seeks to justify every statement by saying that it is in conformity with Islam, one seems to be interested more in the defence of Islam that the cause one is espousing. As I said, this is entering Mullah`s territory and dangerous. If a cause is desirable, it should not need the seal of approval of any book.
#73 Posted by KaalChakra on March 26, 2007 8:01:19 am
dm
Is the Muslim world facing greater external and internal turmoil than the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?
Is the Muslim world facing greater external and internal turmoil than the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?
#74 Posted by Folio on March 26, 2007 8:18:09 am
Is it true that they officially say prayers everytime a PIA plane takes-off????
#75 Posted by hamidm2 on March 26, 2007 8:29:54 am
Re: # 70
hair of the dog and other silly stories
....... tahmed mian .... when i was younger i would get up on saturday mornings and have a bloody mary or two because i believed that the only way to fight the effect of alcohol was with more alcohol ........ i refused to believe that there was anything wrong with drinking like an idiot on friday night ............ and, like you, i still refuse to believe that alcohol can kill you - i have this line, similar to yours about religion, about drinking in moderation !
........ mian ji, as long as we keep on insisting that there is nothing wrong with the basic teachings of our religion and try to put some distance between us and some of its more abhorrent practices, we will stay mired in this morass ........... for example, there is no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice .....
........... similarly, it is foolhardy to keep on insisting that islam is a peace loving religion and that the word `jihad` means anything other than violent conflict against the infidels ......... all this cockamamie about jihad being a peaceful internal struggle is a big distraction from the main issue .......... as long as moderates like you keep on denying the violent nature of jihad, the jihadis will continue to blow themselves up .......
.......... trust me, bloody marys in the morning do not work ..........
hair of the dog and other silly stories
....... tahmed mian .... when i was younger i would get up on saturday mornings and have a bloody mary or two because i believed that the only way to fight the effect of alcohol was with more alcohol ........ i refused to believe that there was anything wrong with drinking like an idiot on friday night ............ and, like you, i still refuse to believe that alcohol can kill you - i have this line, similar to yours about religion, about drinking in moderation !
........ mian ji, as long as we keep on insisting that there is nothing wrong with the basic teachings of our religion and try to put some distance between us and some of its more abhorrent practices, we will stay mired in this morass ........... for example, there is no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice .....
........... similarly, it is foolhardy to keep on insisting that islam is a peace loving religion and that the word `jihad` means anything other than violent conflict against the infidels ......... all this cockamamie about jihad being a peaceful internal struggle is a big distraction from the main issue .......... as long as moderates like you keep on denying the violent nature of jihad, the jihadis will continue to blow themselves up .......
.......... trust me, bloody marys in the morning do not work ..........
#76 Posted by zeemax on March 26, 2007 8:31:24 am
#73 by kaalchakra
....the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?
Before DM comes in with his bit, let me jump in here:
It is because the Muslim World is the only one amongst all the foregoing which has the capacity and potential to upset the entire world order as we know it.
....the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?
Before DM comes in with his bit, let me jump in here:
It is because the Muslim World is the only one amongst all the foregoing which has the capacity and potential to upset the entire world order as we know it.
#77 Posted by khurram on March 26, 2007 9:09:28 am
Re: #71, dost-mittar,
``they enter right into the Mullahs` den ....``
They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.
``The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran.....``
You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar and none of the moderates know Arabic.
Apparently, you think all Islamic scholars are of one kind.
``they enter right into the Mullahs` den ....``
They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.
``The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran.....``
You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar and none of the moderates know Arabic.
Apparently, you think all Islamic scholars are of one kind.
#78 Posted by KaalChakra on March 26, 2007 9:16:29 am
zeemax
Agreed completely. Yet, it would be interesting to see what `moderates,` both inside and outside of Islam, think is so special about Islam and its world.
Agreed completely. Yet, it would be interesting to see what `moderates,` both inside and outside of Islam, think is so special about Islam and its world.
#79 Posted by dost_mittar on March 26, 2007 9:30:54 am
kaal, zeemax:
I feel differently. As I said in an earlier interact, it`s the constellation of geo-strategic events - the cold war in whcih the West shamelessly exploited Islam, end of the same cold war, the victory of shia islam in Iran, oil rich wahabis flush with cash, Bush, Afghanistan, Iraq- and Internet have put the focus on Islam. I remember that back in the eighties and early nineties, after the Air India bomb, it was Sikh religion that was in focus in Canada. And when there was an anti-racism seminar in Africa a few years ago, it was Hinduism`s caste system that came in for an unfavourable mention. But Islam is more in focus also because of its interenational reach.
I feel differently. As I said in an earlier interact, it`s the constellation of geo-strategic events - the cold war in whcih the West shamelessly exploited Islam, end of the same cold war, the victory of shia islam in Iran, oil rich wahabis flush with cash, Bush, Afghanistan, Iraq- and Internet have put the focus on Islam. I remember that back in the eighties and early nineties, after the Air India bomb, it was Sikh religion that was in focus in Canada. And when there was an anti-racism seminar in Africa a few years ago, it was Hinduism`s caste system that came in for an unfavourable mention. But Islam is more in focus also because of its interenational reach.
#80 Posted by dost_mittar on March 26, 2007 9:35:59 am
khurram:
``You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar``
No, some of them have also gone to Oom, Deoband and even Karachi`s Binori Town Madrassa. :)
``You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar``
No, some of them have also gone to Oom, Deoband and even Karachi`s Binori Town Madrassa. :)
#81 Posted by tahmed32 on March 26, 2007 9:47:55 am
Hamidm/Dost Mittar: My additional two cents on the subject:
dost mittar writes I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.
This Saudi propaganda is indeed one of the less discussed issues in newspapers etc. - however, this has been a major factor in replacing the Quran with the Hadees and Sharia (the tools for replacing democracy with kingship, by effectively making the ruler unaccountable to the people and enveloping the ruler in a de facto divine role (as mullah literally did by enveloping himself in a blanket he claimed belonged to the prophet), which of course is the anti-thesis of the Quran.
The fundamental problem - the reason the hadees and sharia finds fertile ground in India (and Pakistan, and in muslim countries elsewhere) is of course the same mindset which causes people to think that by sacrificing a goat on eid is that they will somehow be able to bribe a deity to intervene on their behalf. Such customs may traditionally have been innocuous (except for the goat in question), but have proved disastrous in today`s world where they provide an easy refuge to weak minds seeking to escape the confusion and uncertainty caused by a rapidly changing world.
Also note that the worst acts of terrorism are in fact conducted by ``muslims`` who in fact are totally different from the lota-wielding abdul that Hamidm brings up. Thus, the 9/11 terrorists were clean-shaven babus - and some of them (per newspaper reports) visited a striptease joint on their way to commit their murderous deed. Hardly the actions of a pious man. What they have in common with the lota-wielding abdul (or indeed in milder form those who think that by performing the hajj they will magically wash away their sins, or those millions who focus on rituals rather than on substance) is merely the same irrational mindset which leads them to the same confused and ignorant view of the message of Islam, of politics, economics and everything else.
dost mittar writes I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.
This Saudi propaganda is indeed one of the less discussed issues in newspapers etc. - however, this has been a major factor in replacing the Quran with the Hadees and Sharia (the tools for replacing democracy with kingship, by effectively making the ruler unaccountable to the people and enveloping the ruler in a de facto divine role (as mullah literally did by enveloping himself in a blanket he claimed belonged to the prophet), which of course is the anti-thesis of the Quran.
The fundamental problem - the reason the hadees and sharia finds fertile ground in India (and Pakistan, and in muslim countries elsewhere) is of course the same mindset which causes people to think that by sacrificing a goat on eid is that they will somehow be able to bribe a deity to intervene on their behalf. Such customs may traditionally have been innocuous (except for the goat in question), but have proved disastrous in today`s world where they provide an easy refuge to weak minds seeking to escape the confusion and uncertainty caused by a rapidly changing world.
Also note that the worst acts of terrorism are in fact conducted by ``muslims`` who in fact are totally different from the lota-wielding abdul that Hamidm brings up. Thus, the 9/11 terrorists were clean-shaven babus - and some of them (per newspaper reports) visited a striptease joint on their way to commit their murderous deed. Hardly the actions of a pious man. What they have in common with the lota-wielding abdul (or indeed in milder form those who think that by performing the hajj they will magically wash away their sins, or those millions who focus on rituals rather than on substance) is merely the same irrational mindset which leads them to the same confused and ignorant view of the message of Islam, of politics, economics and everything else.
#82 Posted by dost_mittar on March 26, 2007 9:48:05 am
khurram:
``They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.``
Not necessarily. Let me give some concrete examples: Lahoris love fun and they are at their boisterous best during the Basant festivities. Some mullahs have objected to it and they have been sidelined by simply saying that people need to have fun and it`s good for tourism. But if someone were to argue whether Basant is permissible in Islam or not, I suggest that Mullahs would win because they would undoubtedly find a link between Basant and some obscure or not so obscure Hindu god or goddess. Similarly, there seems to be an emerging trend towards yoga in some circles in Pakistan. But if one has to defend it as permissible according to islam, one may be hard put as the origins of yoga are certainly associated with the worship of Sun and other gods; thus practising yoga would be akin to practising shirk. To give an example from non-islamic world, blood transfusion could be in trouble if Jehovah Witnesses strict interpretation of the practice is to be challenged on religious, rather than medical ground.
``They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.``
Not necessarily. Let me give some concrete examples: Lahoris love fun and they are at their boisterous best during the Basant festivities. Some mullahs have objected to it and they have been sidelined by simply saying that people need to have fun and it`s good for tourism. But if someone were to argue whether Basant is permissible in Islam or not, I suggest that Mullahs would win because they would undoubtedly find a link between Basant and some obscure or not so obscure Hindu god or goddess. Similarly, there seems to be an emerging trend towards yoga in some circles in Pakistan. But if one has to defend it as permissible according to islam, one may be hard put as the origins of yoga are certainly associated with the worship of Sun and other gods; thus practising yoga would be akin to practising shirk. To give an example from non-islamic world, blood transfusion could be in trouble if Jehovah Witnesses strict interpretation of the practice is to be challenged on religious, rather than medical ground.
#83 Posted by anil on March 26, 2007 9:49:55 am
Re: # 75
Hamidm Sahib:
``no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... ``
Such an act if it happened is at best glorification of abominable practice. To convince millions of suffers that they should remain slaves as one day it can happen to them also.
In Bihar, hindu practice includes worshipping poor - they are even called Daridra (= poor) Narayan (= God). People in power do that all the time, as it allows them to maintain a status quo. To convnce millions of suffers that they should remain Daridra, as one day they can be Narayan also.
``the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice ..... ``
Enlightened or otherwise moderation are clever plays on words, if there is no Zero Tolerance on outlawing (= reforming) abominable, dehumanizing and humiliating practices in a society. Caste system is institutionalized and has taken its toll. Economic improvement, and less rigidity is indeed showing up among the well-off segments. Economic betterment and empowerment through education are very strong forces to counter.
Although from what I know of Islam, it additionally suffers a unique closeness that comes from the absolute finality of the book and the messenger. This in my view is the root cause, that is completely artificial and in direct conflict with all natural laws. Till this is reformed, you will have better luck with you booze example, as people, including Tahmed Sahib will not stop shutting their mind off.
Can you tell me if this basic can be reformed?
Such an absolutism makes, OBL think he is so absolutely right also. To an outsider, it seems like Bhains ke aage been bajaye, bhains khadi pagraye. And the changes are lost. No other religious thought in present world has such absolutes, that is why even societies following hindu practices have a chance to evolve as a result of economic betterment and empowerment through knowledge. It does not mean that other societies do not have its shares of dogmatic believers. However, dogmatic believers cannot say that you are not a believer becuase you do not believe in absolutes, and there are now Mirzais or whatever.
Hamidm Sahib:
``no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... ``
Such an act if it happened is at best glorification of abominable practice. To convince millions of suffers that they should remain slaves as one day it can happen to them also.
In Bihar, hindu practice includes worshipping poor - they are even called Daridra (= poor) Narayan (= God). People in power do that all the time, as it allows them to maintain a status quo. To convnce millions of suffers that they should remain Daridra, as one day they can be Narayan also.
``the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice ..... ``
Enlightened or otherwise moderation are clever plays on words, if there is no Zero Tolerance on outlawing (= reforming) abominable, dehumanizing and humiliating practices in a society. Caste system is institutionalized and has taken its toll. Economic improvement, and less rigidity is indeed showing up among the well-off segments. Economic betterment and empowerment through education are very strong forces to counter.
Although from what I know of Islam, it additionally suffers a unique closeness that comes from the absolute finality of the book and the messenger. This in my view is the root cause, that is completely artificial and in direct conflict with all natural laws. Till this is reformed, you will have better luck with you booze example, as people, including Tahmed Sahib will not stop shutting their mind off.
Can you tell me if this basic can be reformed?
Such an absolutism makes, OBL think he is so absolutely right also. To an outsider, it seems like Bhains ke aage been bajaye, bhains khadi pagraye. And the changes are lost. No other religious thought in present world has such absolutes, that is why even societies following hindu practices have a chance to evolve as a result of economic betterment and empowerment through knowledge. It does not mean that other societies do not have its shares of dogmatic believers. However, dogmatic believers cannot say that you are not a believer becuase you do not believe in absolutes, and there are now Mirzais or whatever.
#84 Posted by zeemax on March 26, 2007 10:05:05 am
#78 by kaalchakra/#79 by dost-mittar
When we debate on `moderates`, we have to see whether they exist. And if they do, who are they?
I had posted this a while ago on some board. This is very significant because only once we agree who`s an extremist and who`s a moderate, only then we can go forward.
Do see below as to whether there`s a difference between the so-called `moderates` and the so-called `extremists` inside Muslim countries. This survey does not cover expatriate populations whom have their own interests to protect which is obvious:
When we debate on `moderates`, we have to see whether they exist. And if they do, who are they?
I had posted this a while ago on some board. This is very significant because only once we agree who`s an extremist and who`s a moderate, only then we can go forward.
Do see below as to whether there`s a difference between the so-called `moderates` and the so-called `extremists` inside Muslim countries. This survey does not cover expatriate populations whom have their own interests to protect which is obvious:
#86 Posted by khurram on March 26, 2007 11:36:11 am
Re #82, dost-mittar,
The vast majority of Lahoris celebrating Basant actually consider it permissible in Islam. And you will find a group of `mullahs` supporting it too. That is the `official` postion too. In Pakistan, govt. can`t get away with saying that something is against Islam but let`s do it for tourism etc.
Same with yoga and blood transfusion. Some people can argue that they are not permissible in a religious tradition. Others can argue from within the same tradition that they are permissible. Why do you presume that the 2nd group will lose? You are making a pre-judgement in favor of one group.
The vast majority of Lahoris celebrating Basant actually consider it permissible in Islam. And you will find a group of `mullahs` supporting it too. That is the `official` postion too. In Pakistan, govt. can`t get away with saying that something is against Islam but let`s do it for tourism etc.
Same with yoga and blood transfusion. Some people can argue that they are not permissible in a religious tradition. Others can argue from within the same tradition that they are permissible. Why do you presume that the 2nd group will lose? You are making a pre-judgement in favor of one group.
#87 Posted by bulleya on March 26, 2007 11:41:55 am
Dost-mittar #: There is a return to religion, quite a few places in the world.........It is showing its face through different means..........In India, USA, the Muslim world etc.......I think it will show up in China soon also, as it becomes more free.........And Russia also....I think the philosophical contradictions of secularism are coming to the forefront and people are being forced to chose between religion and athiesm.......And at a political level, many people are chosing religion...........
Religiously conservative forces now completely control politics in USA....Had Bush not screwed it up for them, it would be impossible for Democrats to win anything, as USA is fully in control of the Evangelicals and Religious Right.........BJP has the strongest or second strongers votebase in India.......Religious parties in many, if not most, Muslim countries will win outright elections......Pakistan, is infact, an exception in this case......Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. fall under religious political influence....
Europe is the only place where religion is going down......
The actual reasons behind the current, ``microscope`` on Muslims has little to do with jihad etc....It has more to do with the influence of Israel in US politics, which has now lead to a conflict between USA and Arabs, which is spreading out to all Muslims.......Had there been jihad carried out against the Sri Lankan govt., I doubt anyone would have bothered and there would have been no microscope.....However, since the USA is iinvolved, the publicity is huge.......
I don`t see this ending, for the simple reason that it is not a one-sided conflict......Regardless of how much the USA media tries to portray it, as such....It is not, as if, Muslims are Arabs started fighting the USA......Quite the other way around......Israel occupied land, killed Arabs, who then fought back, and were attacked by USA and so on.....
So, I don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims.......I don`t see that happening anytime soon, because the geopolitics are such that USA will keep bombing Muslim countries and Israel will keep occupying Palestine.......
....There is another factor you are not considering......You are looking at everything from an expat point of view......The only Muslims who are under scrutiny are expat Muslims........It is only their lifestyles which are affected by these conflicts.......They constitute a microscopic % of the total Muslims in the world........The Muslims who remain in their own country are not too bothered about how their actions affect the ex-pat Muslims.......Hence, they have no motivation to tone their end of the violence.......
If a guy yells, ``Go Ahmadinijad`` in USA, he could get hunted down.....However, if he yells it any Muslim country, he would be cheered.......I am not sure what would happen if he yelled it in India........
I think this vicious circle is going to keep growing.......Just the killings in Iraq by the USA, must have created tens of thousands of angry Arabs, whose family members have died........They are probably ready to carry out some violence against the USA, UK etc.......
Their motivation through religion will be about as much as Bush`s motivation through religion (or Vajpayee`s etc.), i.e........their main aim will be political or personal, and it will be channeled through religion........Not the other way around, as you are suggesting........
So, the moral of the story is that tahmad, hamidm, you or anyone else (moderate, athiest or otherwise) is not going to be able to do much.......If every moderate Muslim in the world got up and started singing, it wouldn`t do much to convince the guy whose brother has been killed by an F-16 fired rocket..........That guy is going to want revenge, and at the moment the path to revenge he sees is through religiously motivated militant factions..........
My guess is that, as this circle gets bigger, the USA will keep bombing one Muslim country after another.........And militant Islamic factions will continue to target US airplanes, buidlings etc........until one day there will be a nuclear explosion in New York........
If the profile of the 9/11 hijackers is correct, they had more in common with hamidm, then with OBL.........Hence the solution to all this does not lie in moderate Muslims doing anything.......They are nothing, but innocent bystanders......It is a political problem and the solution lies in a two-state Palestine-Israel resolution..........
Religiously conservative forces now completely control politics in USA....Had Bush not screwed it up for them, it would be impossible for Democrats to win anything, as USA is fully in control of the Evangelicals and Religious Right.........BJP has the strongest or second strongers votebase in India.......Religious parties in many, if not most, Muslim countries will win outright elections......Pakistan, is infact, an exception in this case......Turkey, Egypt, Algeria, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. fall under religious political influence....
Europe is the only place where religion is going down......
The actual reasons behind the current, ``microscope`` on Muslims has little to do with jihad etc....It has more to do with the influence of Israel in US politics, which has now lead to a conflict between USA and Arabs, which is spreading out to all Muslims.......Had there been jihad carried out against the Sri Lankan govt., I doubt anyone would have bothered and there would have been no microscope.....However, since the USA is iinvolved, the publicity is huge.......
I don`t see this ending, for the simple reason that it is not a one-sided conflict......Regardless of how much the USA media tries to portray it, as such....It is not, as if, Muslims are Arabs started fighting the USA......Quite the other way around......Israel occupied land, killed Arabs, who then fought back, and were attacked by USA and so on.....
So, I don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims.......I don`t see that happening anytime soon, because the geopolitics are such that USA will keep bombing Muslim countries and Israel will keep occupying Palestine.......
....There is another factor you are not considering......You are looking at everything from an expat point of view......The only Muslims who are under scrutiny are expat Muslims........It is only their lifestyles which are affected by these conflicts.......They constitute a microscopic % of the total Muslims in the world........The Muslims who remain in their own country are not too bothered about how their actions affect the ex-pat Muslims.......Hence, they have no motivation to tone their end of the violence.......
If a guy yells, ``Go Ahmadinijad`` in USA, he could get hunted down.....However, if he yells it any Muslim country, he would be cheered.......I am not sure what would happen if he yelled it in India........
I think this vicious circle is going to keep growing.......Just the killings in Iraq by the USA, must have created tens of thousands of angry Arabs, whose family members have died........They are probably ready to carry out some violence against the USA, UK etc.......
Their motivation through religion will be about as much as Bush`s motivation through religion (or Vajpayee`s etc.), i.e........their main aim will be political or personal, and it will be channeled through religion........Not the other way around, as you are suggesting........
So, the moral of the story is that tahmad, hamidm, you or anyone else (moderate, athiest or otherwise) is not going to be able to do much.......If every moderate Muslim in the world got up and started singing, it wouldn`t do much to convince the guy whose brother has been killed by an F-16 fired rocket..........That guy is going to want revenge, and at the moment the path to revenge he sees is through religiously motivated militant factions..........
My guess is that, as this circle gets bigger, the USA will keep bombing one Muslim country after another.........And militant Islamic factions will continue to target US airplanes, buidlings etc........until one day there will be a nuclear explosion in New York........
If the profile of the 9/11 hijackers is correct, they had more in common with hamidm, then with OBL.........Hence the solution to all this does not lie in moderate Muslims doing anything.......They are nothing, but innocent bystanders......It is a political problem and the solution lies in a two-state Palestine-Israel resolution..........
#88 Posted by hamidm2 on March 26, 2007 12:02:33 pm
Re: # 87
captain cluless,
...... instead of wastng our time and valuable cyberspace you could have simply said ``the jews are responsible for 9/11 and all the mayhem in the world !`` .......... personally, i think it is all bcause of the lttle green men who just landed in you back yard .......
captain cluless,
...... instead of wastng our time and valuable cyberspace you could have simply said ``the jews are responsible for 9/11 and all the mayhem in the world !`` .......... personally, i think it is all bcause of the lttle green men who just landed in you back yard .......
#89 Posted by bulleya on March 26, 2007 12:50:19 pm
hamidm2 mian#: .....I believe I never mentioned Jews anywhere in my post........You seem to see them everywhere.......
......I did mention your good friend W........And yes, I do think he is responsible for much of the violence in the world.......I am not the only one......Most of the world thinks so.....There are, individuals, other than him, who are also responsible for some of the violence also....OBL is one of these.....
Hence, an end to this violence involves controlling people like yourself, who have wholeheartedly supported W.......It is this support which has resulted in more violence than anything else.......I thus find it odd, when you are lecturing others on non-violence and moderation.......And end to violence also involves controlling people who support OBL.......However, on this site, I have yet to run into anyone who supports OBL.........If you know of someone, kindly point it out........
In any case, I don`t see how this circle of violence will be solved until the Israel-Palestine issue is resolved.........The rest of us are mere bystanders in this war with you and W on one side and OBL and his version of you on the other........
Personally, I am neither with us nor against us, and would be more than happy if W and OBL blew each other up.......I, myself, however, would like to stay as far away from their war as possible, as I don`t want to get caught in the crossfire.........That, I think, is the best policy for every country and individual.......
......I did mention your good friend W........And yes, I do think he is responsible for much of the violence in the world.......I am not the only one......Most of the world thinks so.....There are, individuals, other than him, who are also responsible for some of the violence also....OBL is one of these.....
Hence, an end to this violence involves controlling people like yourself, who have wholeheartedly supported W.......It is this support which has resulted in more violence than anything else.......I thus find it odd, when you are lecturing others on non-violence and moderation.......And end to violence also involves controlling people who support OBL.......However, on this site, I have yet to run into anyone who supports OBL.........If you know of someone, kindly point it out........
In any case, I don`t see how this circle of violence will be solved until the Israel-Palestine issue is resolved.........The rest of us are mere bystanders in this war with you and W on one side and OBL and his version of you on the other........
Personally, I am neither with us nor against us, and would be more than happy if W and OBL blew each other up.......I, myself, however, would like to stay as far away from their war as possible, as I don`t want to get caught in the crossfire.........That, I think, is the best policy for every country and individual.......
#90 Posted by hamidm2 on March 26, 2007 1:30:38 pm
Re: # 89
captain,
......... let me remind you what you said :``I don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims..`` .......... i guess you blame it on the bahais living in both these countries ....... but, like i said before, i still believe that little green men are to blame for all the ills that afflict abdul and his camel ...........
captain,
......... let me remind you what you said :``I don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims..`` .......... i guess you blame it on the bahais living in both these countries ....... but, like i said before, i still believe that little green men are to blame for all the ills that afflict abdul and his camel ...........
#91 Posted by bulleya on March 26, 2007 2:22:25 pm
hamidm2 #89: ``......... let me remind you what you said :``I don`t don`t see how this cycle is going to end, until Israel and USA stop killing Arabs and other Muslims.``
Yes, I did say that......Now where in the world did you see the word, ``Jew`` in there?.......Perhaps you should stop extrapolating, as you are not too good at it.......A friendly suggestion to you: It`s about time, you pulled your head out of your rear, rather than perpetualy telling everyone else to pull their heads out.......
Wake up!.......Bill O`Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Wolfowitz, Feith, Gonzalez, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle are out of fashion now....Your neo-cons lost......Their ideas are going down the drain......I tried to highlight the inabilities of W to you years ago.......You did not listen......You bet on the wrong horse...Look what that has done to you and to the Republican party.......The world is far more violent now than it ever was.......Even US`s own think tanks are stating that......As are Israel`s........
Israel and USA are two political entities.........And I do think, this violence is not going to end, until these two entities stop their killings........I am not highlighting the correctness or incorrectness of their killings.......I am simply stating a simple fact.......I am not the only one who thinks that......I think much of the world thinks that.........This, of course, does not justify any terrorism against them........But lets not be too naive and lets accept the fact that they have committed extensive amounts of state terrorism, and have killed orders of magnitude more individuals through state terrorism than they have lost........
All this violence and terrorism did not spring up from thin air........It is part of a political cycle........A cycle, which has its basis in Israel and Palestine.........That is the catalyst........Now it has grown to an extent, where whole countries are being bombed and attacked and whole skyscrapers are being blown up.......Don`t you think this has something to do with it.....
Or do you really think it is actually based on Dost-mittar`s interpretation of a few verses in a holy book? Do you also think the Sikhs blew up the airliner in Canada, because of Guru Granth, or was it because of the politics of Punjab....Do you think the Tamil Tigers are blowing themselves up because of the Hindu Vedas or because of the politics of Sri Lanka?
One can expect such incoherent commentary from the US politicians and radio talk show hosts, but one would expect something more coherent from you..........After all, you are something more than a naive American.......You spent time in Lahore.........
Yes, I did say that......Now where in the world did you see the word, ``Jew`` in there?.......Perhaps you should stop extrapolating, as you are not too good at it.......A friendly suggestion to you: It`s about time, you pulled your head out of your rear, rather than perpetualy telling everyone else to pull their heads out.......
Wake up!.......Bill O`Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Wolfowitz, Feith, Gonzalez, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Pearle are out of fashion now....Your neo-cons lost......Their ideas are going down the drain......I tried to highlight the inabilities of W to you years ago.......You did not listen......You bet on the wrong horse...Look what that has done to you and to the Republican party.......The world is far more violent now than it ever was.......Even US`s own think tanks are stating that......As are Israel`s........
Israel and USA are two political entities.........And I do think, this violence is not going to end, until these two entities stop their killings........I am not highlighting the correctness or incorrectness of their killings.......I am simply stating a simple fact.......I am not the only one who thinks that......I think much of the world thinks that.........This, of course, does not justify any terrorism against them........But lets not be too naive and lets accept the fact that they have committed extensive amounts of state terrorism, and have killed orders of magnitude more individuals through state terrorism than they have lost........
All this violence and terrorism did not spring up from thin air........It is part of a political cycle........A cycle, which has its basis in Israel and Palestine.........That is the catalyst........Now it has grown to an extent, where whole countries are being bombed and attacked and whole skyscrapers are being blown up.......Don`t you think this has something to do with it.....
Or do you really think it is actually based on Dost-mittar`s interpretation of a few verses in a holy book? Do you also think the Sikhs blew up the airliner in Canada, because of Guru Granth, or was it because of the politics of Punjab....Do you think the Tamil Tigers are blowing themselves up because of the Hindu Vedas or because of the politics of Sri Lanka?
One can expect such incoherent commentary from the US politicians and radio talk show hosts, but one would expect something more coherent from you..........After all, you are something more than a naive American.......You spent time in Lahore.........
#92 Posted by dost_mittar on March 26, 2007 2:33:40 pm
bulleya#87:
Nobody is forcing people to choose between atheism and religion - within Hindu religion itself, there are dozens of in-between possibilities and, if my undestanding of that religion is correct, one can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time. But I do agree that people in general are becoming more religious. Hopefully, it is just a phase.
But comparing what is happening in the Islamic world to what is happening in other religions is akin to our desi folks saying that there is corruption in every society (Enron in the US, sponsorship scandal in our own country). Rahul Dravid has not taken to doing a knotty tuft of hair (choti) or trying to convert Zaheer Khan or Pathan). Yes, the BJP is a force in India and it certainly has an anti-muslim bias but I dont remember any BJP leader digging into the vedas to seek support for itself. And while the evangelicals are a force to reckon with in the US, very few of them invoke Biblical prophecies for the Middle East to support Bush.
Nobody is forcing people to choose between atheism and religion - within Hindu religion itself, there are dozens of in-between possibilities and, if my undestanding of that religion is correct, one can be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time. But I do agree that people in general are becoming more religious. Hopefully, it is just a phase.
But comparing what is happening in the Islamic world to what is happening in other religions is akin to our desi folks saying that there is corruption in every society (Enron in the US, sponsorship scandal in our own country). Rahul Dravid has not taken to doing a knotty tuft of hair (choti) or trying to convert Zaheer Khan or Pathan). Yes, the BJP is a force in India and it certainly has an anti-muslim bias but I dont remember any BJP leader digging into the vedas to seek support for itself. And while the evangelicals are a force to reckon with in the US, very few of them invoke Biblical prophecies for the Middle East to support Bush.
#93 Posted by CheGuevara on March 26, 2007 3:29:59 pm
NFP @66: Hate is a pretty strong word, a lot of people just found it boring, unoriginal and not very representative of your fiction writing skills. So is this what you`re going to be doing from now on? Is this truly the end of the ``Cactus Gas`` days? :(
#94 Posted by anil on March 26, 2007 4:21:58 pm
Re: # 87
Religious thoughts and beliefs offer value in human development, and will remain needed within the confines of individuals. Institutionalized religion is under threat. It has been 600 years since the last religious institution was created. These institutions played role to deliver more believers and in accumulating wealth and power.
With the rise of economic power and spread of education outside these institutions, their power has eroded. Roman Catholic Church saw its power reduced, except among the poor. Shankaracharyas delivered India to Hinduism almost 1,500 years ago, and nothing else. Lately, institutionalized Islam has not delivered anything other than terrorism. Many will dispute this, but which institution has ever owned the responsibility for doing harmful things, unless it is defeated. Only when the U.S. is seeing a defeat in Iraq that it is recognizing Iraq war was not about democracy.
That institutionalization of Islam is so easy, is one of the most intriguing aspect that any terrorist or disgruntled Muslim can creat
Religious thoughts and beliefs offer value in human development, and will remain needed within the confines of individuals. Institutionalized religion is under threat. It has been 600 years since the last religious institution was created. These institutions played role to deliver more believers and in accumulating wealth and power.
With the rise of economic power and spread of education outside these institutions, their power has eroded. Roman Catholic Church saw its power reduced, except among the poor. Shankaracharyas delivered India to Hinduism almost 1,500 years ago, and nothing else. Lately, institutionalized Islam has not delivered anything other than terrorism. Many will dispute this, but which institution has ever owned the responsibility for doing harmful things, unless it is defeated. Only when the U.S. is seeing a defeat in Iraq that it is recognizing Iraq war was not about democracy.
That institutionalization of Islam is so easy, is one of the most intriguing aspect that any terrorist or disgruntled Muslim can creat