Inzi Post-Bob: An Interview

#62 by hamidm2 on March 25, 2007 8:06pm PT
Re: # 61

dost-mittar,

........... i agree with you 100% and that is what i keep on trying to tell nice, well-meaning but hopelessly naive moderate muslims like tahmed ........``moderate Muslims will never win against jihadis as long as they keep in denial that there are certain things that need to be condemned regardless of whether or not they are permissible in Islam``

You two appear to be seriously delinquent in your knowledge of history and politics.

This is the first instance in the Muslim history that fanatics, not orthodox have taken control of the political landscape in the Muslim world. The Muslim fanatics have blindsided the moderate Muslims and the western media is playing that up for its own political and territorial goals.

Barring the first few years of Islam, political leadership of the Muslims had always been moderate. The Umayyads or the Abbasids in Baghdad and the Umayyads in Spain were not fanatics. The Mughals and the rulers before them were not fanatics. Some rulers might have been more orthodox than the others but mostly they maintained a moderate polity. The Sassanids, or the other Persians rulers were not fanatics by any means. The Turkish Empire was perhaps the most secular administration in the Muslim world. However, some of them did use Islam when politically expedient. They were many movements sponsored by fanatics in Islam but that is not uncommon in other religions too.

Why the fanatics control the debate in the Islamic world can be rationalized in several ways but it mostly has to do with the general political conditions in the Islamic world which is controlled by the moderate Muslims in every country.

The moderate leadership in the Islamic countries avoids liberalism and modernism like plague thus allowing the fanatics to become the only alternate for the political opposition. The fanatics have also used sensationalism and other means such as terrorism to place the average Muslim on the defensive.

Many things have to happen to change the control of the political debate in the Muslim world. Such as:
1. The governing coalitions in the Muslim world should be encouraged to embrace liberal policies.
2. A culture of tolerance, promotion of cultural values not derived from Islam and education at all levels will need enormous encouragement from people around the world.

All this requires sustained efforts as change does not happen overnight.

The moderate Muslims will win the dialog because history is on their side. Any effort to force the issue militarily or through calling people evil doers will not work. As we see now in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Some people loved this piece and some totally hated it. There seem to be no in-betweens. It has had a remarkably polarizing effect … quite like religion. :)

But mind you, I too have a beard, if not as divine as Inzi’s or as fancy as the ones shown by Sir bjkumar (#60). Lovely.

NfP

I felt Bob`s death is only incidental to this piece and is not THE subject of this piece. I wonder why people are making such a song and dance about it.

#67
Exactly. Pakistanis needed a hero from the ashes of this world cup and Woolmer’s sad demise gave them one. Woolmer is incidental here, and Paracha actually sympathizes with him by alluding how terrible it would have been for Bob to be caught in Inzamam’s Raiwindism.

Why I wanted to read this as follows:

Interviewer: But what about the boys’ cricket and form? Not very clean and decent.

Inzi: Yes not clean and decent uniform, it should be black and white or a sword or kalma on it.

Re: # 75

Hamidm Sahib:

``no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... ``

Such an act if it happened is at best glorification of abominable practice. To convince millions of suffers that they should remain slaves as one day it can happen to them also.

In Bihar, hindu practice includes worshipping poor - they are even called Daridra (= poor) Narayan (= God). People in power do that all the time, as it allows them to maintain a status quo. To convnce millions of suffers that they should remain Daridra, as one day they can be Narayan also.

``the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice ..... ``

Enlightened or otherwise moderation are clever plays on words, if there is no Zero Tolerance on outlawing (= reforming) abominable, dehumanizing and humiliating practices in a society. Caste system is institutionalized and has taken its toll. Economic improvement, and less rigidity is indeed showing up among the well-off segments. Economic betterment and empowerment through education are very strong forces to counter.

Although from what I know of Islam, it additionally suffers a unique closeness that comes from the absolute finality of the book and the messenger. This in my view is the root cause, that is completely artificial and in direct conflict with all natural laws. Till this is reformed, you will have better luck with you booze example, as people, including Tahmed Sahib will not stop shutting their mind off.

Can you tell me if this basic can be reformed?

Such an absolutism makes, OBL think he is so absolutely right also. To an outsider, it seems like Bhains ke aage been bajaye, bhains khadi pagraye. And the changes are lost. No other religious thought in present world has such absolutes, that is why even societies following hindu practices have a chance to evolve as a result of economic betterment and empowerment through knowledge. It does not mean that other societies do not have its shares of dogmatic believers. However, dogmatic believers cannot say that you are not a believer becuase you do not believe in absolutes, and there are now Mirzais or whatever.

Re: # 70

hair of the dog and other silly stories

....... tahmed mian .... when i was younger i would get up on saturday mornings and have a bloody mary or two because i believed that the only way to fight the effect of alcohol was with more alcohol ........ i refused to believe that there was anything wrong with drinking like an idiot on friday night ............ and, like you, i still refuse to believe that alcohol can kill you - i have this line, similar to yours about religion, about drinking in moderation !

........ mian ji, as long as we keep on insisting that there is nothing wrong with the basic teachings of our religion and try to put some distance between us and some of its more abhorrent practices, we will stay mired in this morass ........... for example, there is no point in denying that slavery florished under islam even though bilal the black rode in on a camel while mo walked by his side ...... the fact of tha matter is that slavery is an abominable practice and regardless of the fact that islam does not ban it outright, it is something that we cannot tolerate in this day and age ......... and no, it doesn`t matter if thomas jefferson was a slave owner ! ..... the same is the case with polygamy, regardless of the reasons why mo kept a well stocked harem it is not a defensible practice .....

........... similarly, it is foolhardy to keep on insisting that islam is a peace loving religion and that the word `jihad` means anything other than violent conflict against the infidels ......... all this cockamamie about jihad being a peaceful internal struggle is a big distraction from the main issue .......... as long as moderates like you keep on denying the violent nature of jihad, the jihadis will continue to blow themselves up .......

.......... trust me, bloody marys in the morning do not work ..........

hamidm/dost mittar: greetings my friends (good to see dost mittar on chowk after a long time). your saying ``Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.

Islam didnt create the seven deadly sins - not to mention illiteracy, poverty, disease, military coups, corruption, abuse of women, abuse of the poor - and just saying ``Islam is the solution`` is not going to solve them. If you chose not to understand this basic point, then you are just as determined in pushing your claim that ``Islam is the problem`` as the mullah is in claiming that ``Islam is the solution``.


btw, check out the video on Pakistan on the nyt website today.

The General vs the Housewife

pandit#67 (and tahmed32):

You are right in the sense that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not wake up in the morning shouting takbir with swords in their hands. Most Muslims, like any other people, are tolerant, non-violent and peaceful citizens of their countries - always have been and probably always will. But a constellation of geo-political factors, globalisation and Internet have brought Islam -and thereby Muslims- into focus as never before. Muslims in places like Bosnia, Chechnya, Indonesia, Thailand and Phillipines who were always well integrated in their respected society and cultures are suddenly discovering that they are part of an ummah and being asked to pay allegiance to it.

The Muslim world is facing an unprecedented external and internal turmoil. Externally, Islam is being scrutinised as never before and enemies of Islam are eagerly searching in the quran and ahadith for any evidence of associating Islam and its prophet with violence and backwardness. Internally, Muslims are facing tremendous pressures, especially from Wahabis. I went into a couple of mosques in Delhi and found copies of English translations of the Quran which gave verses of the quran along with explanations of a wahabi type, frequently with the help of ahadith. I tried to obtain a copy of it from the bookstore attached to the mosque but learnt that they were not for sale and were only provided free to mosques by the Saudi embassy.

I think that the moderates can win the battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims as long as they use rational arguments and commonly accepted human values to advance their cause but when, instead of regardless, they add qualifiers such as ``and this is also the true message of the quran``, they enter right into the Mullahs` den from which they generally come out bloodied and wounded. The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran with reference not only to dozens of the ahadith but also to history and to other prophets and their holy books.

I also think that the battle will be fought perhaps most vigorously in Pakistan where you have a influential civil society and a strong madrassa culture of the fundamentalist type, vying for the hearts and minds of a basically tolerant people whose emotional attachment to Islam can however be easily exploited. Thus, you have a free, open discussions, music videos, etc. on TV while at the same time a taleban-type set-up emerging in the Frontier region.

tahmed#70:

````Islam is the problem`` is just as meaningless as the mullah saying ``Islam is the solution``.


...But when one seeks to justify every statement by saying that it is in conformity with Islam, one seems to be interested more in the defence of Islam that the cause one is espousing. As I said, this is entering Mullah`s territory and dangerous. If a cause is desirable, it should not need the seal of approval of any book.

dm

Is the Muslim world facing greater external and internal turmoil than the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?

Is it true that they officially say prayers everytime a PIA plane takes-off????

#73 by kaalchakra

....the Buddhist world, the Christian world, the Hindu world, the Sikh world etc? Why should that be so?

Before DM comes in with his bit, let me jump in here:

It is because the Muslim World is the only one amongst all the foregoing which has the capacity and potential to upset the entire world order as we know it.

Re: #71, dost-mittar,
``they enter right into the Mullahs` den ....``
They have to, or else they wil be sidelined as nominal muslims.
If you argue from outside Islam then you change the debate to Islam vs. some other universal value system.

``The reason is simple: the moderates, more often than not, have only read a translation of the quran whereas the mullahs have spent a life time dissecting each and every verse of the quran.....``
You think all the mullahs went to Al-Azhar and none of the moderates know Arabic.
Apparently, you think all Islamic scholars are of one kind.

zeemax

Agreed completely. Yet, it would be interesting to see what `moderates,` both inside and outside of Islam, think is so special about Islam and its world.

kaal, zeemax:

I feel differently. As I said in an earlier interact, it`s the constellation of geo-strategic events - the cold war in whcih the West shamelessly exploited Islam, end of the same cold war, the victory of shia islam in Iran, oil rich wahabis flush with cash, Bush, Afghanistan, Iraq- and Internet have put the focus on Islam. I remember that back in the eighties and early nineties, after the Air India bomb, it was Sikh religion that was in focus in Canada. And when there was an anti-racism seminar in Africa a few years ago, it was Hinduism`s caste system that came in for an unfavourable mention. But Islam is more in focus also because of its interenational reach.