Façade of Pseudo Feminism

Re:#58
neembu begum( the famous pseudo feminist)

takes yet another fp board hostage to her pagalpun, bigotry, hateful propaganda and height of jealousy............

Re: # 57

and Zeena Begum takes yet another fp board hostage to her pagalpun. :)

mamoon sahib

Just wait and see, how neembu begum( the pseudo feminist) will come back with more hateful remarks for me and for this article................LOL

But, best bet is to laugh @ their moronish posts..........

#47 mamoon sahib
Re:-[[If women carry themselves with grace and confidence, I think they will only get respect from any one who is reasonable despite being educated or not. ]]

And this is what Miss Farzana Versey is all about. Miss Farzana Versey is very well known in all Indo Pak literary world.

In this sentence you just described Miss Versey`s personality.

Dear Mamoon sahib

Since, this article is about pseudo feminists and their pseudo propagandas.
Please, permit me to introduce you to a REAL LADY of chowk. May be you already know her.

But, to add to this article, I wish to dedicate this post for a real, genuine and brave and intellectual lady of chowk.com who was our ex-chief editor..............

neembu begum( pseudo feminist).

Read this and then compare your self with Miss Versey........You`re nothing and Miss Versey is everything when it comes to intellect and sensitivities.................

neembu begum

Miss Farzana versey is highly intellectual, respectable, dignified,talented, very famous Indian writer with lots and lots of self esteem.
Miss Versey is very polished person with finesse and well groomed personality.She is also very sensitive , sensible and kind hearted....she is a real woman with all her ideology.
She goes out of her way to help poor oppressed Indian women......she never claims to be this pseudo feminist S**T.........but, she is always there for the needs of the poor people regardless of gender/cast or religion.

God has given her beauty and brain , both.............I wish I could be like her just 25%, but, I am just an humbled soul............

God( almighty) bless our lady Miss Farzana Versey . Ameen.

neembu begum

You`re just another jealous body with NO soul left............you`re just full of hatred for real women.....

You lost my respect, when you showed your extreme hatred for our Lady Miss Farzana Versey when she became Chief Editor of chowk.com. You called me names and fight with her on each and every board of Front Page just our of your own hateful propaganda, b/c you could not tolerate Miss Farzana versey to be CE of chowk......While she was competent and you were incompetent............

Yes, I do admit on Front Page that , in the beginning I never used to read Miss Versey`s articles and I always misunderstood her........... later when she became CE, in the beginning I was not quite happy about it, b/c I thought she won`t be a good CE and chowk will go down the drain..........

But, to my pleasant surprise, our Miss Farzana Versey did EXCELLENT job as a CE, she proved herself the best writer and admin. She worked hard to up grade this chowk.com.

And that was the time when I became her #1 die hard fan...
I wish all Indian and Pakistani women to be like her............

#47 mamoon
Re:-[[Thanks for the encouragement and you are quite right the issues of women are more regarding their economic empowerment. If women carry themselves with grace and confidence, I think they will only get respect from any one who is reasonable despite being educated or not. ]]

Mamoon sahib

This is the essence of your article. And this is the CONCLUSION of our discussion....
Thank you very much for your kind and respectful words.
I will look forward for more of your articles with unique perspective.......

regards

#50 by neembu on April 20, 2007 5:55pm PT
Re: # 49

Zeena Begum is a plagiarist? Where is Versey to dispute yet this example....]]]

neembu begum

LEAVE MISS FARZANA VERSEY ALONE.



For your kind information read this......And also read post #50.......
[[[Lily Brooklyn
I wish to give you the same dose of your own venom in exactly your own words........for spreading hate among human progeny and for creating a riff between men and women........You`re pseudo feminist........And face it....you are extremist and fascist....

This is back fire to show you your own reflection in exactly in your own words.......to show you mirror...
To all the feminists of this world......

[[ Pseudo feminism is just plain wrong belief. I wish I could give these people the benefit of the doubt, but their arguments are counterfactual, unsubstantiated, paranoiac, hateful, and boring. They either reject the facts of normal society or, when they can no longer sustain their fantastic denials.

They behave as fascists as we know them now, saying, ``We want this exactly the way we wish to and that`s the right way only and natural way.``I hate the pseudo feminists who do not believe in existence of genetic differences among men and women and they are always threatened by the very facts of genetics................

Their slogans are, MY WAY or NO WAY..........]]

Enjoy the taste of your own hatred....

neembu begum

If you will call me liar and hypocrite...I will call you liar and hypocrite.........
If you will call me beyaatch, I will call you beyaatch..........
You along with your abusive gang have had been harrassing me a lot on un plugged and on front page.......................

It looks like you have NO life............get a life.....You are abusive towards me and you have had been abusive towards Miss Farzana Versey.........you are pseudo feminist sociopath, just here on chowk for your own paranoia......

Again, you are counterfactual, unsubstantiated, paranoiac, hateful, and boring pseudo feminist like Lily Brooklyn......

Now, harrass me more, abuse me , call me names...........as you always do...and do not forget to call your abusive gang...

Well, JG aka teja_seth is here.....call others as well......NO life...

#49 teja_seth aka JG

Well, JG sahib

How many times I have requested you NOT to act as neembu`s puppet. Use your own mind if you can?

And also, on Un plugged, when you called me names and tried your best to insult me and abuse me for no reason recently just b/c neembu begum e-mailed you to insult me and as a hired puppet and dummy for neembu, you made it your life time mission to insult me.....

I also requested you to ignore me and be a gentleman.....b/c I have had been extremely gentle and nice with you........

Anyway, today you proved that you`re also shameless like your boss neembu and I guess that it is useless to ask you ignore me...........

Anyway, JG sahib
For your kind information read this......And also read post #50.......
[[[Lily Brooklyn
I wish to give you the same dose of your own venom in exactly your own words........for spreading hate among human progeny and for creating a riff between men and women........You`re pseudo feminist........And face it....you are extremist and fascist....

This is back fire to show you your own reflection in exactly in your own words.......to show you mirror...
To all the feminists of this world......

[[ Pseudo feminism is just plain wrong belief. I wish I could give these people the benefit of the doubt, but their arguments are counterfactual, unsubstantiated, paranoiac, hateful, and boring. They either reject the facts of normal society or, when they can no longer sustain their fantastic denials.

They behave as fascists as we know them now, saying, ``We want this exactly the way we wish to and that`s the right way only and natural way.``I hate the pseudo feminists who do not believe in existence of genetic differences among men and women and they are always threatened by the very facts of genetics................

Their slogans are, MY WAY or NO WAY..........]]

Enjoy the taste of your own hatred....

Bye.

Now, keep on spreading this hateful propaganda.....I don`t care.]]

Why you are always ready to attack me?

I know where you live? If, you wish I can come and visit you with my brother and husband and will have a meeting @ dinner......You can bring your boss neembu, too.

And then face to face, you can tell me , why are you itching for fight? Do not take my politeness as my weakness..........

Besides
Get a lilttle life...........LOL

Yes, I counter attacked Lily Brooklyn in her own words...I always kill the snake by giving them their own poison...............

If, you will call me a Beyaatch.....I will call you SOB

Just to make you feel, how others feel when you call them names and when you attack them with your bigot remarks......

If, you`ll call me Jihadi/fundo/Mullah...I will call you Indian Jihadi/fundo/mullah......

So, does that make me plagiarist? absolutely not.


Also I am not a writer or journalist.......so, SUE ME........LOL

NOw, this JG will come up with more name calling , insults, he will e-mail madam neembu and will come up with more bright ideas( in fact retarded) ideas to down play my stand against pseudo feminists..................But, at the end JG will get the same dose ............LOL


Get a life, JG....There are plenty of good hobbies in Brooklyn other than attacking me, other than insulting me.............Or you`re being paid by neembu begum to call me names?

#50 neembu begum sahiba

You are extremely retarded and highly moronish.........You have never ever made any sense in the past, doesn`t make sense currently and will never ever make sense in the future.

I have told you million times NOT to interact or respond to my posts. But, it lookss like you have NO self respect left what so ever.

You are obsessed with fighting with strangers on internet 24/7. You are pathetically shameless woman who has NO life other than accusing others for No reason at all.........

You have your own inferior complexes..........and you always come back with your pseudo feminist disgusting agenda..............well, the fact is, you are just good for nothing.

You are blaming me for being plagiarist here and jumped to the conculsion along with your HIRED # 1 CHAMCHA JG aka Tesha_seth who is also shameless like you.

Lily Brooklyn is another pathetic pseudo feminist................yes, I did read her senseless pathetic comments full of hatred for men.............And, yes I counter attacked pseudo feminists like Lily Brooklyn and her ilks like you and back fired in her own language...........

I gave her the taste of her own poison...........

This is my style............When these Indians call all Pakistanis Jihadis/Talibans/fundos and full of hatred comments..................I always back fire and always give them the taste of their own poison in exactly the same hateful words that they use for us......................

Yes, I call them extremists/fascists/Jihadis/Talibanis and fundos...........just to show them the mirror.....................

This is tit for tat. What goes around that comes around................every action has the similar reaction................to hit you back............

Yes, neembu begum.............

I counter attacked all the pseudo feminists with the same hate full words, which you used for others..................and I wanted to re attack Lily Brooklyn and I did also with the same words.............

Yes, I am repeating the saem thing here again....{{{It`s just plain wrong belief. I wish I could give these people the benefit of the doubt, but their arguments are counterfactual, unsubstantiated, paranoiac, hateful, and boring. They either reject the facts of normal society or, when they can no longer sustain their fantastic denials.

They behave as fascists as we know them now, saying, ``We want this exactly the way we wish to and that`s the right way only and natural way.``I hate the pseudo feminists who do not believe in existence of genetic differences among men and women and they are always threatened by the very facts of genetics................

Their slogans are, MY WAY or NO WAY..........]]]

And, I do not regret even for a moment to use these same words for pseudo feminists like you and like Lily Brooklyn..............if and whenever you and anyone will attack others with your unreasonable harte full venom.................

Now come up with more hatefull venom....................LOL...

Do you think I care? I don`t.....SUE ME......

Re: # 49

Zeena Begum is a plagiarist? Where is Versey to dispute yet this example....

Re: # 46

I wish I could give these people the benefit of the doubt, but their arguments are counterfactual, unsubstantiated, paranoiac, hateful, and boring. They either reject the facts of our hegemonic society or, when they can no longer sustain their fantastic denials, they reveal themselves for the fetishizing fascists we knew them to be all along, saying, ``That`s the way it`s supposed to be; that`s the natural order.``

Hahahahaha Zeena, why must you steal from feminist bloggers while trashing feminists on chowk?

I found the above paragraph in your post in this blog dated January 24, 2007. :D

Re: # 45

Zeena Begum, channeling Phyllis Schafly, Anita Bryant and Johnny Walker at the same time can`t be good for your mental health. :)

````Let me give you my example..........I always wear jeans in Pakistan( even in rural areas)...I never ever felt any kind of harassment).......all they do is respect me and love me.....

Most of the times, rural poor men take me to their families and introduce me to their wives and advice them to listen to me and do exactly what I tell them.....they do not get offended....Men I have experienced are more supportive and like to change their women folks.................. ````

Thanks for the encouragement and you are quite right the issues of women are more regarding their economic empowerment. If women carry themselves with grace and confidence, I think they will only get respect from any one who is reasonable despite being educated or not.

mamoon sahib
Besides,

It`s just plain wrong belief. I wish I could give these people the benefit of the doubt, but their arguments are counterfactual, unsubstantiated, paranoiac, hateful, and boring. They either reject the facts of normal society or, when they can no longer sustain their fantastic denials.

They behave as fascists as we know them now, saying, ``We want this exactly the way we wish to and that`s the right way only and natural way.``I hate the pseudo feminists who do not believe in existence of genetic differences among men and women and they are always threatened by the very facts of genetics................

Their slogans are, MY WAY or NO WAY..........

Re#42 mamoon sahib
Thanks for your intelligent response.

[[No idea why so many of these men or women are frustrated and giving such negative reactions. ARe they all New york times journalists asked by Chowk to edit articles?]]

Exactly....LOL
Don`t worry, they will always coem up with their pseudo propagandas and will try to harrass you , if, you will not agree with them. This is the way they are. They will always be negative , if, your ideology won`t suit their minds. They are self righteous. And don`t forget, they are pseudo feminists means full of hatred and negativity, they act like champions for women rights...................

But, remember as I stated earlier, they will never ever go out of their ways to help really poor and oppressed women who are really in need.................and yes all of them have a delusion that they are some sort of NY times journalists hired by chowk staff to edit articles.....LOL...well said!!!

[[I said pseudo feminism in the garb of feminism or they think feminism is the most pure activist and academic initiative ever started and why because it is started by `Women``so I am all the more SINFUL who questioned it.

Every thing in this world can be questioned and ridiculed but not FEMINISM. Well that is the problem. Have not we notice same inflexibility in the point of Fundmentalists who are not ready to listen to anything other than their point of view.]]

Yes, they have this delusion and illusion that feminism is some sort of pure activity which , if, questioned will be SINFUL...........quite right.

Yes, they think they are LIBERALS and OPEN MINDED..........as a matter of fact they are a walking talking examples of FUNDAMENTALISTS , exactly the same mind sets.........they are intolerant , prejudiced, inforgiving and inflexable and full of hate, lies and double standards.................just like pseudo Mullahs. I call them fascists and fanatics.
Yes, they never listened to anyone, but, their own pseudo agendas...............they are exactly like dictators ready to choke your throat, if, you disagree with them..........

[[In the start of my article I say femisism and women empowerment is all the more important but I question pseudo feminism in the garb of feminism and women rights.

. Now the frustrations show that most associated themselves with pseudo femisism and thus all frustrated . Well not only I write articles, in my personal life also I am very vocal about it and quite right some times it is a cause of my social exclusion and gets frustrating but I am not gonna give it up. ]]

I understand your views right from the start and that was the main reason I admired your intellectual views and this article...........very valid and so true....You rock.

Indeed you showed your uniqueness and intelligence................Bravo.

I do not believe in this word feminism, I believe in standing for the rights of all the humans regardless of gender/cast/religion/nationality without spreading hate ful pseudo agendas......Please, never stop raising your true and intellectual voice just b/c they dislike your views............remember, never get frustrated, if, you`ll be frustrated then there won`t be any difference between you and them.......they are frustrated and let them be....

Never giveup your ideology.........your ideology is much more brighter than most of interactors....

Let me confess here something here infront of you......there was a certain time period in my life time, when I got carried away by the slogans of pseudo feminists and started acting exactly like them, but, I guess that was just the exploration time......later when I realized that their ideology is screwed up and twisted....I came in to my senses and now, I laugh @ myself for that......
Please, write more articles like this .....I will wait for them to be published. thanks

[[Regarding Pakistani women they are indeed so repressed that anything they say and do is justified. Though not applicable for Pakistani women who have spent significant time in the West as then they should be smart enough to realise what is a fad and what is not. So I guess this article may look a bit of out of place me sitting here in the West interacting and going about doing things in an environment which is entirely different then Pakistani environment where even if a woman comes out on a street in jeans there is some possibility of harassment. ]]

Yes, Pakistani women are suppressed and oppressed. I admit, but, you know why? b/c of lack of education,basic health needs and lack of opportunities.........
I have had been to so many remote villages in Pakistan( both Punjab and NWFP) and Azad Kashmir...........for different projects. But, it is not only Pakistani women, it is about 80% of Pakistanis ( living in rural areas) regardless of gender who are suffering b/c of lack of their basic life needs................

Let me give you my example..........I always wear jeans in Pakistan( even in rural areas)...I never ever felt any kind of harassment).......all they do is respect me and love me.....

Most of the times, rural poor men take me to their families and introduce me to their wives and advice them to listen to me and do exactly what I tell them.....they do not get offended....Men I have experienced are more supportive and like to change their women folks..................

At the end.....do not change your ideology , if, you will do, you`ll lose yourself in the spin.....

regards

#41 by nb on April 19, 2007 0:09am PT
Re: # 40
[[Zeena, how do you blame the Virginia Tech killings on feminism???]]

nb sahiba
First of all you asked me a totally twisted question..........that doesn`t fit right here...
Please, re read my posts below and come up to something more valid.

If, you don`t mind, may I correct your question.......
You could have asked......
[[Zeena, why do you think Virginia Tech Sociopath had just the same mind set as pseudo feminists have???]]

My dear
Sociopaths are full of hate for others, they always believe their rights have had been denied based on their gender,cast , religion or socioeconomic status. That`s exactly what happened with virginia Tech sociopath and that`s exactly what pseudo feminists ha ve had been spreading hateful speeches...........they never really helped poor oppressed women , especially from third world countries....their only mean motive is to create a riff between social setup and disruption , creating more chaos which can lead to killings.....just think about it.....................

Regards

#31 by neembu on April 18, 2007 5:24pm PT
Re: # 24

Says the NumberOneFan of the Hifsa Klan]


Hifsa Klan brave sisters are not FEMINISTS.

Yes, I am proud I did not compromise and I stood up for the right action of Hifsa clan.
That doesn`t make me feminists by any chance....

Thank God I am not pseudo feminist. I hate this term feminist.......that makes me puke...........yuk

Dear Zeena,

No idea why so many of these men or women are frustrated and giving such negative reactions. ARe they all New york times journalists asked by Chowk to edit articles?

I said pseudo feminism in the garb of feminism or they think feminism is the most pure activist and academic initiative ever started and why because it is started by `Women``so I am all the more SINFUL who questioned it.

Every thing in this world can be questioned and ridiculed but not FEMINISM. Well that is the problem. Have not we notice same inflexibility in the point of Fundmentalists who are not ready to listen to anything other than their point of view.

In the start of my article I say femisism and women empowerment is all the more important but I question pseudo feminism in the garb of feminism and women rights.

. Now the frustrations show that most associated themselves with pseudo femisism and thus all frustrated . Well not only I write articles, in my personal life also I am very vocal about it and quite right some times it is a cause of my social exclusion and gets frustrating but I am not gonna give it up.

Regarding Pakistani women they are indeed so repressed that anything they say and do is justified. Though not applicable for Pakistani women who have spent significant time in the West as then they should be smart enough to realise what is a fad and what is not. So I guess this article may look a bit of out of place me sitting here in the West interacting and going about doing things in an environment which is entirely different then Pakistani environment where even if a woman comes out on a street in jeans there is some possibility of harassment.

Re: # 40
Zeena, how do you blame the Virginia Tech killings on feminism???

Besides, feminists are also like Virginia tech sociopath expanding their horizons of gender hatred and creating a riff....bet. men and women..........net results.......murders and killings of innocent people.....

Retard Taslima is also a famous feminist..............mind it.

Virginia Tech sociopath reminded me of some hateful Indians here on chowk who are busy 24/7 for their hateful propaganda...................

And mind it Taslima is also a sociopath who has a disturbed thought process like Virginia Tech Sociopath who killed 32 innocent kids for no reason................sad fact

These are the radical feminsists who wish to TALIBANIZE all the women. These radical feminists are another face of mullahs of chowk.............LOL

Dear writer
[[Nevertheless, the attention should also be drawn to the pseudo Feminism in the garb of women rights which has taken its roots some time ago in the West and has thrown a very simple and urgent issue of women empowerment into a spiral of confusion and conflict. Women rights have become another tragedy of commons in social anthropology of urban activism.]]
This so very true.....

As I told you earlier in my earlier post..........be careful there are some highly intellectual feminists here on chowk......LOL....

Yes, they are feminists..........they stand still for the rights of all women of Pakistan....
They go to Pakistan to help rural poor Pakistani women............LOL
Yes, they have started way too many projects for these poor women...........LOL

Yes, they are doing everything possible for those deserving Pakistani women........but, here on chowk by typing words and dishing them on your face..............and trying their best to convince you, how good they are and how much feminist champion they could be....LOL......but,only here on chowk..........

B/c chowk is the best place to raise your voice against oppression of Pakistani women....

I hope you understand......

Good luck with chowk feminists...........LOL

#31 neembu sahiba
I do not wish to interact with you on any board. And best bet for you is to ignore all my posts. Do not read them. Do not waste your precious time in reading my useless posts.

Better try to utilize your precious internet time in interacting with your likeminded Indians and some Pakistanis. Try to have fun............

Regards

PS:-thanks for putting me on ignore.

#31 by neembu on April 18, 2007 5:24pm PT
Re: # 24

Says the NumberOneFan of the Hifsa Klan]

neembu

I do not wish to interact with an idiot and retard like you. Go, play with your likeminded retards........

Thanks

Re: # 27

hahahaha You are one crazy cat mamoon :D

Re: # 13

Oh wow... so you were jilted by a chick.

Re: # 6
Anyway from your comments I have deducted your intellectual IQs so any effort to explain myself would be quite futile even if i write pages over pages.

HUH?

If deducting intellectual IQ doesn`t help, have you tried adding emotional IQs?

Goddammit.. I should have submitted my essays for chowk`s consideration a long time back.

Re: # 24

Says the NumberOneFan of the Hifsa Klan...

Re: # 27

Chowk Editors,

Could you kindly not post FP ``articles`` that are devoid of any plausible scholarship save the author`s own questionable and tangential experiences?

It just stinks of desperation and male insecurity.

and in any case, I can`t see what a party going out of hand has to do with your article.

Re: # 27
I honestly don`t get your point-you are the one calling the rest of us names because we don`t agree with you.

LOL

I wonder how pathetic some men and women get when they hear a point of view, they fail to comprehend out of certain psycological apprehensions....And the reactions are even funny

Talking abt reactions, let me entertain you by sharing a small account......


Some good years ago I was invited to a gatherring by a certain canadian girl (a hard core feminist) who was living with a British and a srilankan girl (The bonding of trio was feminism)......it was more of an after party invitation....Anyway they picked some guys from the party along with their own friends to have some further hangin out........the apartment was hustlin and bustling with good crowd ...........as i enterred the lounge one of the hosts was doing lap dance of sorts.....with two guys.....Most were chilling and talking.....Soon after the lap dancer disappeared in the alley with two of her dudes.....and after 5 minutes or so I saw a guy smashing the door and falling into the lounge and after a sec the second guy jumping on him......A fight broke out it seemed....well the lap dancer got in the way stopping both guys ...then the other hosts jumped in....but the other guy was too drunk to stop....so i guess it took a good 1 minute to disentangle all of them...

Now the hosts got into some kind of hysteria...Calling the cops......shouting at him and insulting the guy (though he was an old friend) who started the argument or fight.....Anyway I politely asked the girl who was calling the cops not to do so..she listenned....they soon kicked the guy out.....

Now there were some 2-3 men still left inside......And suddenly all these guys started cribbing, accusing the other guy and showed their utmost displeasure and shock......and most of these guys were no bodies like me. The two guys who had the argument had been some good friends with the hosts and the girl was apparently flirting with both of them at the same time.....

So these nobodies had a good situation in hands......drunck and pissed off women looking for sex.....evening spoiled....some good words of sympathy and any one might get lucky.....

Any way the kicked out guy stayed outside the apartement trying to say something as if he is sorry........whereas every one was insulting the chap....anyway i was eventually given the responsibility to keep an eye on the guy as other guests were leaving.....and I let him in with the understanding that he comes in and say his apologies...

He did come in and apologised...but the crowd showed a lot of disgust.....

Evening over all gone home.....

but there were two good lessons i learnt within few days..

1. I became the bad guy fr trying to solve the situation by not participating in that confusion or exploiting it.

2. The other guy who was all insulted remained the friends of those hosts

3. The guys who tried to expolit the situation were all pissed off as I spoiled the whole game for them

So #26 and all the other guys who have responded negatively on the article are the men if they are men who are quite similar to the nobodies who are invited in the parties, try to say what ever shit they can to get into the pants of women, and are quite hilarous. And sadly the feminist women are themselves so insecure and being complacent to such men as if it is their way of confirming men are listenning to them.

So hilarious are the expressions and pathetic are some mind sets.

on second reading, here are my comments

the author needs to get his stress situation sorted out ..... The Hague is not far from the streets of amsterdam and I am sure he will find a decent place there where his ``specific needs`` can be met. Ofcourse for a price.

Once done. He should revist this piece and I am sure he will reconsider his theory in light of his new enlightened and unburden, and less weighty self.

Till then Dawood, I am sure you will do well with the enlightened Dutch women.

Dutch women, no bloody wonder you are in such a state......untangle your chaddis man. And you can enjoy the pleasures of the nether lands better!

``women are the prime causality for such social and economic injustices``

cool! so woman are to be blamed for their troubles.

What a bleeding dickhead the author is.....
or as they lady sayeth

Are women the ``causality`` or ``casualty``

I doubt if the authors knows the difference, let alone the answer

(a finger wagging icon here) its not amusing,

its hilarious. For once we have an unintentional MCP here....

[[I do believe that of all the other good things said and done, women empowerment would also materialise in this very century. However it would not happen under the current wave of contradictry spirals of practicing masculine detest by pseudo feminists and their retailers. Many need to grow out of this feminist obsession of dominance and act in confidence and grace to participate progressively in knitting a less contradictory and conflicting global social net. ]]

Well said, Mr.Mamoon.....

This time you hit the nail in the head.............

I am finding it more and more incomprehensible that chowk could have published this. There are many people who make similar arguments coherently. The writer is not one of them.

Following is my email correspondence to a message we recieved from one of the gender expert on open forums of the Institute. The original email contants we recieve are in the bottom. So read it if you are interested and i hope it would enable my point to get across.

Dear ABC,

Thank you for posting this video. The title of the email got me interested to go to the link as well but with much respect I would like to add my disappointment here. The images and the subsequent contents of the video were nothing but some good piece of dum dum. The way feminism is used or abused in this video fails to make much of a point regarding socalled conflict between the West and Islam.

The video has confirmed my fears that feminism like other idealistic notions is increasingly becoming victim of social confusion of the so-called wise and aware. Intellect seems to be the biggest casualty of our social grooming and career orientations. I guess only few really feel the sensitization of gender as a positive, progressive and socially inclusive phenomenon and more would rather write but simply propagate the half truths in form of half baked ideas to the masses to satisfy their own insignificant political motives among some what confined and exclusive audience all in name of simplicity and thus a more interest wielding methodology. The video u attached is prime example of it and its presence in ISS email forums is the subtle proof of how swift and unconsciously participatory the propaganda of contradiction infested feminist activism has become without we ever questioning it as then it would mean risking one self to be crucified for being politically incorrect on a topic of even greater urgency and that is `women rights and their due and rightful all round empowerment` .

Here the image of Paris Hilton was used to question but also somewhat ridicule her recent hyped up persona. Why not any other image from the West? Why not Madonna or Brittany Spears or so many who have become a household name and much like Paris Hilton are selling on the front pages of magazines sometimes bare naked if it suits their aesthetics. Paris Hilton is indeed taking a lot of heat outside the world of fashion n glamour. What is with this obsession about her and why would she all be hated as well and thus be used yet another of zillion times in this substandard video you would forward? Well she is extremely rich, a kid born with silver spoon and would dye her hair blond like many or any woman may like to do and she seems to say and do what she pleases. This makes her an empowerred woman with the right definition of modern day view of femisnism. She wants to be a sex symbol for women which is an obsession well justified considering her limited options of adventurous and differentiated life style due to her status profile upon birth.

Her presence in this odd video which is not even remotely related with her and where the other comparison was an unknown human sketches of a scarf clad women substantiates my point and questions the sincerity of the people who wanted to sell this video and their half baked idea under some noble headlines. The subtle conclusion after going through the imagery is that these are only men transformed into war mongerring machines and if left to women the eternal peace would be achieved. Is it quite so?

Let us not talk about world problems but take the dutch example. Yesterday I went to a bar and asked the lady across the counter whether she earns the same salary as any male bar attender. She nodded in yes. I asked her then whether women earn the same as men on average. She was well aware of the facts and quite alloquently summed up the gender scenerio in dutch labor force by suggesting `` Higher the women reach in management level jobs, difference between salaries between men and women seems to increase`. There is still a general perception among women in Netherlands that it is difficult for women then men to get recognised in certain male dominated professions i.e, corporate sector etc. Now whether their qualms are an outcome of genuine discrimination or statistically they are less efficient than men on average in certain work profiles are the only two logical answers to above mentioned concerns. Definitely, I like most others choose to believe it is the former case. Then the question arises why so, esspecially in a country which has been managed by a dynamic woman at the top most level which is her highness ``The Queen``. The role of Queen in holland might be unlike other monarchies in Europe. Here culturally the dutch are rather more attached to the Queen as well as dutch politics. Queen is a brand name in herself in holland. One evidene is the tradition of popular celebration of Queen`s Night where the whole country celebrates the event unlike any other event. Even Christmas celebration get pailed against the general enthusiam shown by ducth public on Queens night. Definitely the Dutch quite passionately associate themselves with the Queen and rightly so. Queen Batrix is not only a Royalty but she is a smart corporate manager, holding a part of owner ship of may be one of the most socially aware oil company in the globe namely `Shell`. Or atleast that is the impression Shell advertises on her website. The newly found feminine side of shell is achieved by whom is any body`s guess. But a strong link with an aware Queen might has a lot to do with it. Further more many inititatives of social contribution to the developing world are ample in Queen`s portfolio to substantiate her international contribution to the welfare of the world`s down trodden . Dutch society as a whole seems to be extremely gender sensitised in their own national domain and on average try to keep themselve abreast with problems of women in larger world. The rise of Hirsi Ali from a refugee to a parlimentarian may be a small but important indicator to this effect. Freedom of speech is encouraged and practiced well. Thus all seems to be rosy and versatile in dutch social culture much like their own well known and well kept tulips garden. It is a big question then that why would women still be a victim of economic biasness in such an aware and well cultured society? Are Islamic fundamentalists and abusing menfolk of Islamic origin have to be blamed for this apparent making no sense what so ever reality of economic discrimination of women? What is going on? Are the attentions been diverted to avoid any fruitful challenge to gender status quo existing in holland? Is dutch society being manipulated by some unknown and un coordinated but mutual interest oriented mafia, to keep them busy with issues of international dimensions though in a confusing settings and manipulated definitions?

I think there are some important issues being put under the carpet as a matter of routine and it seems that average dutch have also been a victim of being taken for a ride by their own politicians associated with certain interest groups promoting a certain agenda consiously or unconsiously to exploit the psycological apprehensions of a public in a very clever manner. For example, this hoop la about Islam and indirectly marketting clash of civilisations only to confirm the fears of their white population regarding ignorance and back wardness of certain economic group belonging to a certain belief system has been one reason to promote and quite cunningly exploit the offensive of Hirshi Ali on her opressers of past life and thus at the end paint the same expression of guilt on the larger faces of muslim male populace - a bydefault outcome of herd mentality. The negative information and headlines coming out of muslim countries, though quite tragic they are, have all been put as a cultural and religious practice of choice by men and women and thus making a self proven case of socalled islamic backwardness and Islamic extremism. Thus the strategy is to blame and ridicule a choice of abstract practice of human nature under stress and ignorance in a manner to bring undue political instensity and strength to adventourous and innovative brand imaging of clash of civilisation and not question the psycological orientations of misguided few guilty ones who act to fuel opression as an outcome of self inflicted circumstances rather then following a set pattern. Proving irrelavant practices of yore as obsolete is rational but creating a propaganda machine to ridicule every thing entailing some misunderstood historic cleche is manufactured confusion utilised for an agenda. Islam is not about opression and it never was. The only problem is the mismatch between contemporary requirements of modern social life and political philosophy of socalled islamic intellect which in many ways still tries to follow and relive a social life of a kind which may only be justified in societies of ancient cultures. So Hirsi Ali would have made a lot of sense and due for lot of respect if she intend to educate unaware mulsim populace of her dutch constituency regarding the vastness of human philosophy rather than keeping her self focused to her bitterness. Though in that respect popularilty and lime light would have not been guarentteed had she made a choice of reconciliation rather than conflict. An abrupt treatment to a problem never solves any problem but only worsens it. Dutch law knows this truth quite well, but popular media and intellectual gossip feeds on abrupt reactions and surprises. Law suggests that every problem which seems to be a problem is not a problem untill proven so and thus it is best to be neutral and blind to be able to serve best justice. Best justice is also the best solution. However our gossiping minds need to feed on interesting information so that the issues need to be created and confirmed to satisfy our biasnesses and thus we can act to live rather more interesting or socially relevant daily lives. Thus grey areas are best used to be given colours of our likings and dislikings. The paintings are painted and stories are sold on the faces of some commonly hated or loved individuals and thus every day we get to confirm our never ending urge to be fed more of the same colour we have chosen to see. This is called political and ideological manipulation of populace. It may serve a good purpose or a bad purpose all depends on intentions. Confused intentions, where every one wants a pie of their own liking, serves no good end.

It is accepted that progress in the West has been achieved because of a centuries long evaluatory process of Christian religion by intellectuals. Many a fassads of redundancy have been stripped off. And slowly the sacrifices of the few brought larger and larger social accord. Rule of law with secular orientation has been the outcome which would further generate the progress of Western societies once seriously put to practice. Now this is the methodology West is trying to rightly propogate to the outside world where similar issues of older Europe may be found in a cultural, religious or economic context. Questioning Islam is encouraged as one of such step to bring subtle tolerance among muslims. However, in my view and despite the good intentions, this methodology is hugely flawed. It is same as suggesting to Afghanistan to first embrace line telephone and then slowly move to mobile technology to communicate. Economic efficiency suggest to jump to mobile telephony to adapt to rapid recovery process. Mulsim world donot need to relive the Christian history and struggle of centuries by a small minority of aware ones and yet loud ones to bring progress to their societies. Rather a more diplomatic approach where Islamic societies are exposed to social and economic empowerment needs to be followed. There is no clash of civilisations between Islam and the West in contemporary times. If there is any thing, it is the fact that Islamic societies live in predominant underdevelopment where education and rationality have become the biggest casuality. However the dust created over many mis percieved issues including clash of civilisation is all an effort to creatively prove the relevance of the ones who sell and buy such ideas of disaccord. The more relavent issues are more global in nature. Human wisdom is ample to find but not equally demanded and believed in. Coincidents are sold as conspiracies. Sweeping statements are passed as being wise and fast solutions of passion.

Every thing is utilised these days for consumerism. This is what we study at ISS. Poverty is used by the international Financial institutions to sell their agenda. Corporate social responsibility is sold as an advertisment compaign of smart image building by multinationals. Then why not the obsession with feminism? More empowerment of women and beilief in women power is to build superiority complex among the women who have been able to achieve a visible status in the society. Now they are all out to find a common enemy. Opressive men are ample to qoute, read and find in muslim disguise, but not so commonly interacted with in a personal capacity. So any man in general may be a potential opressor untill proven otherwise. Any mistakes are analysed to substantiate the masculine inclination of dominance and thus seriously rebuked and disliked. In other words, lot of so called feminists are discontent with whole human social evolution and want to re write the entire human history which is tainted to their belief by male dominance. However a better mindset would be to shape the future than to religiously indulge in historic bitterness. Thus the problem remains the mind set. The above video quite directly talks about women dominance as it suggests that if women be provided a chance to make the decisions for this world the world would be a peace ful place much like eternal heaven of biblical contrasts. Empowerment is of mind and every one has his/her own criterion for it. Now why would Paris Hilton be associated as being a shallow person here? She is shallow because she is rich but doesnot act like Bill gates or Condeleeza Rice of sorts? The world is so huge and diversified that every act if not harmful for the social accord and welfare of others is justified and even necessary. Outside the intellectual world of wise sayings and doings, if feminism is about female domination or about feeling self-dominated then it is no serious deal but another of a choice to be fed to ever growing arena of consumers looking for entertainment. It wont bring any real change of progress to women as such in terms of their economic empowerment but definitely must bring few good profits to some billion dollar corporates, who would then definitely pay a lot of taxes on their revenues and thus indirectly might contribute to social welfare at a global scale. And the time would take its due course to change the world for good or bad.

I do believe that of all the other good things said and done, women empowerment would also materialise in this very century. However it would not happen under the current wave of contradictry spirals of practicing masculine detest by pseudo feminists and their retailers. Many need to grow out of this feminist obsession of dominance and act in confidence and grace to participate progressively in knitting a less contradictory and conflicting global social net.

p.s. Just last week, I browed through the book stores in the Centrum and was looking at some contemporary literature. I was some what surprised to note that most of literature displayed in the book stores is written by women. Anyway I went through some of it and I got surprised that how the language gets explicitly sexual but with a stark feminist colour to the expressions. And all these books are a good sale. It seems indeed lot of women are out to change the culture of self proclaimed masculine infested prose. These authors might be a just outcome of their own times as I was reading a short book published in early 1990s, where Robert Solow, the economics nobel laureate, uses the expression `pussy footing` in the openning lines of his essay to criticise some of the contemporary approaches in economics. Pussy footing may be an expression out of innocence but might not entertain lot of feminists. I guess practiced feminism in the West has quite a tough ride ahead and it seems women dont find many serious supporters of their cause among menfolk. That might be a reason good enough to ridicule who can more conveniently be ridiculed to vent some frustrations. So what i see outside academic circles is that feminism has become quite a mish mash of different yet contradictory practices and at the end most are just trying to vent frustrations in one way or another.

best
dawood mamoon








ABC on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 at 11:45 AM +0100 wrote:
Dear friends,

I just watched this great new video (90 seconds) about the clash between Islam and the West and how to stop it - you can see it if you click here:

http://www.Avaaz.org/en/stop_the_clash/tf.php

Could the movie be linked to EZnet?

ABC

---

Original Message

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06 March 2007 12:35:26
Message
From: ``Ricken Patel - Avaaz.org / CeasefireCampaign``
Subject: 90 seconds to change the world
To: ABC

Re: # 20

This is utter nonsense and an excuse for this writer to yank some chains and have a laugh....but let me point out that Muslim feminists are a growing and well received part of academia. Grow up and there may be a place for you.

I have read your post in detail:

Please note that I am only talking about Feminists, not women in general and believe me if you go into detail it is not merely about women rights. Feminism as it is percieved is transformed into something else.

I see bunch of mostly white women trying to control men around them. So these are all observations and many of such feminists I have socially interacted with for longer periods of time while naturally observing what these feminists are all about. It is just a convinient mask to bring out in certain circumstances.

And since I feel it has a significant social application for developing countries, I am interested in it. So if you read the article it subtly hits the psycological orientation of such pseudo feminists.

zahra

These are not personal experiences but several observations upon observations..

my critique on feminism is intellectual in nature rather than personal because it is a school of thought dishing out some idealistic rhetoric on open forums but their personal lives are a disaster. These are not academics mostly but femisist activists using rhtorics like `Women Power`` and stuff. Bunch of women who are obsessed with womanhood and feminine side of this world so much so that they have no tolerance for an iota of masculinity though some may only allow it in bed if they havent turned gay.

Anyway i am surprised why you have gone offended with the title of my article.

One probable reaosn : You are paying your bills from a salary paid by a white Man and you are so complacent. Any way best of luck with your woman hood.

p.s. The pseudo feminist cult criticise every man who donot submit to their `socalled woman power` and you look an involuntary adherent to it. Though you fail to accept it. So wake up to the fact that there can be disagreements between men and women and all disagreements donot mean that some shame ful and sinful (Muslim) men are busy repressing women.

This is a thought...discredit the feminist movement by shouting out a spit between the real and the pseudo. Women are women and everything they nag and complain about is valid because its the powerless that nag, the powerful command.

Aisha Sarwari

mamoon sahib
Pseudo feminists will always discuss women issues sitting in their drawing rooms, typing on their keyboards their pseudo rhetorics.

They will never help any poor woman in need.They will never go to Pakistan/India to try to help out the real oppressed folks............and that`s the exact reason , they are pseudos.

They do not even know what are the problems of those poor women are..............

Trust me, they never do.

Re: # 13

Dawood - I am real busy and may not be able to revisit this board for sometime. In the interest of time, I could only provide partial input.

1.it is hard to find many women with common sense these days.

Women can hold similar views about men. By the way, did you mean ``any`` or ``many`` ? I think any should be sufficient than many :) Don`t you agree?

2. Most women love money and lime light but they decieve themselves in believing in some nobel headlines.

Men love all kinds of things. Should women impose their way of thinking on men?

3. Women hate to pay fr their date but find it utterly romantic to be taken out, fed some romantic cum exotic cum sensitive cum intellectual drivel.

The title suggested that you had your share of pleasant or not so pleasant experiences. Life is about experiences and observations. Probably, you need to continue your quest for finding the right date who can afford to split the check vs. likes to be taken care of. Times have changed, but some people have not. It`s ok if you do not want to take care of your date. Spell it out up front.

4. They find being simple and innocent as cheap but shrewdness sexy, though they claim to prefer otherwise.

This was sweetly stated. I am sorry I cannot speak for the ones you have come across. We all come across different kinds of people. Some are worth preserving, others are not. What`s the big deal? You are a doctoral student. Are you always successful in getting the anticipated results of your research? I have a few very close friends who are pursuing doctorate in complex areas and it has taken them much longer than anticipated. Since they took off time from corporate lives and decided to go back into academia, it has been even more difficult for them. I guess their perseverance is paying off in the end. One is a female who got married in the middle of her Phd program. She is supporting her spouse financially overseas. She is also sponsoring him to join her and he is anxiously awaiting for that day. This woman has spent over 25 years of her life in the west. She ended up taking the plunge for her reasons. There are all kinds of examples for us to analyze and review. In the end, we still have our own experiences to go through. Let`s not forget that.

5. muslim men are regressive but exotic only if they are up fr the game.

Now, is that true ? Being a man, you should know better and feel securer in yourself than what others think of you. Do you think muslim men are regressive? .

6. no better deal than havin a muslim man around with money otherwise he suck as he is a man and that is a muslim man

I do not want to assume that you are insecure, but some of your comments lead one to look into that dimension of your written thought process. Your language and expression demand some clarification. What do you mean by ``having a muslim man around with money``? To do what? To place him as a trophy on a book shelf ? Or to put him in a nice brief case?

[so in a nutshell pshycologically feminist school of thought which most western women have religiously adopted is just a new fashion and a good time pass. but i am increasingly getting bored of it. ]

Well, your boredom may be indicative of something else. Life is also about choices. Rather than raising so much hue and cry, just follow the exit sign.

Majority of muslim men get threatened by women with options and choices. It throws them in a precarious condition and makes them feel very insecure. These men have a very set perception of what and how women should be. So, whenever they see women exercising their views or options(whatever they may be), they have a real difficult time to accept it.

So, who is right for these men ?

I suggest women(either eastern or western) with very limited options, zero outlook and no independent views are ideal for these men.

On the other hand, the ones (either eastern or western) with options, well defined outlook, independent views and an identity will be real pain in the neck for these fellas.

Why inflict yourself to that pain when you can stay painless ?

Till we connect again.............

Re: # 12

Zahra Behen,

Dawood Sahib is a ``doctortal student``, whatever the heck that means....this is chowk`s effort at quality writing....

Re: # 13

Dawood Sahib,

This last post is even more incomprehensible than the convolutions of your piece. Is there an actual original and compelling idea in this overwrought diatribe or this wanking rendered in 10 letter words?

ok
summary provided....
(i am primarily commenting on practiced feminism in the west so it is addressed to the west not eastern women... eastern women have long way to go n they most of the times show more grace n common sense if they are aware ones)

anyway so here goes the summary dedicated to a western woman

1.it is hard to find many women with common sense these days.
2. Most women love money and lime light but they decieve themselves in believing in some nobel headlines.
3. Women hate to pay fr their date but find it utterly romantic to be taken out, fed some romantic cum exotic cum sensitive cum intellectual drivel.
4. They find being simple and innocent as cheap but shrewdness sexy, though they claim to prefer otherwise.
5. muslim men are regressive but exotic only if they are up fr the game
6. no better deal than havin a muslim man around with money otherwise he suck as he is a man and that is a muslim man

see i mentioned money two times here. money buys time as well as respect. thus feminism is just another fad of capitalism and if accepted this way i am more than happy but it creatively claims to be some new doctrine of intellectual evolution.

so in a nutshell pshycologically feminist school of thought which most western women have religiously adopted is just a new fashion and a good time pass. but i am increasingly getting bored of it.

thus fr me With all this and plus, the case of Western feminists get weaker and weaker. I have written another piece on feminism few days back and its getting better and better- prose and ideas :)

Secondly, a doctoral student should stay in his limits and within the scope of his major. No need to fly too high in imagination :)

Dawood - I do not think you can afford my time. So, why don`t you entertain my earlier request of summarizing your drivel :)

I promise I will read it then.

zahara J,

I always prefer to pay ppl in kind. though i have ceased to claim to be a feminist I still hold on to my aesthetic sense which makes me a big fan of Gods gift to men ``women`` meaning they indeed are a better half of us only if they stop acting like a bunch of monkeys/bitches.Though i wont mind paris hilton act but tht suits her more and many needs to be innovative.

anyway you say time=money

well i have money so now you may have time to consider an offer u wont resist. i am willing to pay you to read my article. And if you are a entertainer as u seem to be, I am even willing to communicate with you on more personal level only if i feel I am being well entertained for a price i am paying.

Now donot go on thinking anything negative fr what i say as i say all in simplicity. But i am sure you still would.

but thanks for even considerring to ever comment on some drivel i write. much appreciated. i don`t know you but you seem to know something from me and tht is much recognition to get happy n gay.

Dawood -

I am interested in reading your perspective. I guess long time back, I did read a few amusing perspectives by you. Could you please summarize your findings in a paragraph? Some of us do not have the luxury of time to read all interesting titles on Chowk? See, for some of us time is money. Once you do that, I will be willing to take a look. Till then, I am glad you dedicated another article to women.

I am sure they seem to shake your very identity and existence ;)

Take Care.

www.498a.org

More than 50% of women in the west are single houshold head and not by chioce but by divorce
not willing to live with there men due to system
that supports them with services lke AFDC ,vocational rehabilitation. food stamps and all taxpayers funded social programes
and if not by themselves

they are alone and empty with no men in there rising of children without male role model

Dear fellows

May be you have not touched upon some hard core femisist literature, though not academic in nature, feminist propaganda and interacted with feminists.

Anyway from your comments I have deducted your intellectual IQs so any effort to explain myself would be quite futile even if i write pages over pages.

But thanks for the feed back and your judgements.

Pseudo feminism (socalled practiced feminism) suffers from exactly the same twisted and superior complexed stuck mind sets which many of you have exposed here. Here I am assuming all of you have lived and stayed long periods of times in the West and not only that u have a rich gender mix company on daily basis out side your household or neighbor hood. As far as Pak or India is concerned, they have always remained copy cats esspecially recently and feminsit activism suffers from total lack of creativity unless some real women issues are not involved.

Re: # 4
Do you know a single person who claims she is better than men by virtue of her gender?I don`t. I honestly think some people imagine these things or attribute them from their own insecurities.
This article reminds me of a really regressive magazine called Women`s Era which used to be popular in India and probably still is. Articles like this show how far we really have to go.

Re: # 3

NB,

Here were the claims I deduced from the convoluted prose of this piece:

1. Democracy that holds all citizens equal regardless of gender and race is ideal.

2. ``Pseudo Feminism`` is based on concepts of female superiority.

3. ``Pseudo Feminism`` exists in scholarship that questions notions of androcentricity in science.

4. ``Pseudo Feminism`` is responsible for the fallacious field of gender, queer and lesbian studies.

5. Equal earning power among men and women make paying dinner bills a stress situation for the author. (Apparently one cannot ask their companion what they would prefer)

6. ``Pseudo Feminism`` now performs as a dominant structural framework in the West-and I don`t know how this claim could be possibly supported-it wasn`t here.

That`s all I could bring myself to suss out.

What is your point? what in your opinion is true feminism, and how do you know?
For all the faults of the West, they have done a better job of making women`s lives less inequal than much of India or Pakistan.

``...underdeveloped parts of the East, where most of the times basic human rights are violated in the guise of acute poverty or sheer social exploitation, women are the prime causality for such social and economic injustices``

Are women the ``causality`` or ``casualty``? Examples like this are unintentionally amusing.

Seriously, this language of this piece is convoluted-author seems to have taken a real beating from the Leila Ahmed chapter ``The Discourse of the Veil`` from her seminal book Women and Gender in Islam. The writer is no Ahmed. I hope he doesnt give up his day job.

http://www.chowk.com/show_interactor_page.cgi?membername=neembu&start=10&end=14&page=3&chapter=1#journal

Dear writer

Excellent article so far.

[[[Thus it is no surprise that half cooked theories of pseudo feminism have failed to bring equality to the economical life of women in the Western societies which they deserve the most. There, women still earn less than men for the same amount of work. Neither, feminism has strengthened family orientation of an average Western household. Rather, a misinformed feminist cult has been formed which is exporting its twisted ideas of women independence and using the plight of women in developing countries as a good excuse. ]]

Each and every word of this article reflects the very much truth.

Thanks for exposing these pseudo feminist cults..........

PS:- remember, we do have one or two such pseudos here on chowk.

Good luck