Jaane kahan gaye voh din!

swarrier:

Yes, I like it but I have heard even better rendition of the same song, including by Shubha Mudgal. But the best one is a cassette I have of the Musafir group from the same Manganiyaar community. A remarkable community it is. You may be aware that they are all Muslims but their specialty is songs devoted to Lord Krishna.

BTW when I visited Rajasthan a few years ago, I was struck by the musical talent there. Even roadside sarangi players, especially in places like Jaisalmer and Jodhpur could give a run for their money to the contestants of Sa Re Ga Ma etc.

swarrier:

Nothing to do with this post directly, but I went to a concert last night by a south indian artist, Unnikrishnan. Amazing! What I really find very heartening about classical singers and musicians coming from India, especially the South, is that they are much younger than the old Masters used to be, articulate, well educated, fluent in English and sometimes accomplished in other fields as well.

Re: # 133

Swarrier - I was ready to signoff from Chowk when I came across your post. Thank you for reminding me of the beautiful song that I had heard way back. Yes, this was a very pretty tune. By the way, I recently discovered a few real nice Indian voices on apna link. Check them out.

Take Care
Nice making a musical connection on Chowk :)

Re: # 132
Thanks for the link. Before this article his the back pages , Zahra perhaps you and DM may be interested in this song. This album
Man ke manjeere was released in 2000 and spent some time doing quite well on the charts.
It deals with women`s hopes and dreams.
The music is by Shantanu Moitra and while some songs are quite fluffy there are some interesting tracks. One of them is by a Rajasthani singer who is polio stricken and cannot move. She is the first woman in her community, the manganiyars, to perform in public.
This is a traditional song in the raaga Mand.

Kesariya

#131 -

You may also like to review a collection of some beautiful eastern voices on the following link:

http://www.apnaorg.com/music

Re: # 130

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is of course wonderful.

I`ll listen to the others over a period. Thanks for the info.

I found the Polish folk dance okay, Salil-da`s take on it is really nice and somehow to me it shadows the original material. Maybe I`m just being parochial. -)

Some other interesting ones:

1. Atmospheres - Caribbean Retreat
2. Gypsy Passion - New Flamenco
3. Desert Roses and Arabian Rhytms
4. Best of Celtic Moods

Swarrier - I have been meaning to write a CD that captivated my heart on one of my journeys to an exotic land.

Global Spirit by Karunesh

http://www.amazon.com/Global-Spirit-Karunesh/dp/B000050J0F

I am a huge fan of Celtic mythology and loved the River Dance performance and the theme song.

The Polish folk song links are interesting, but there is something missing. I guess either it`s the spirit or the impact that is not there. In any case, thanks for introducing something new.

Last but not least, the only eastern voice that has stayed with me for as long as I remember is of no one else other than Nusrat Fateh Ali. His death was a huge loss for the qawwali music lovers worldwide.

I recently discovered another beautiful qawwali number by him that I have not come across before.

``Menoo`n Yaa`r Munao`no Fursat Naee`n,
Dasso Rub Noon Muna`waa`n Kis Vae`lae``

It`s a beautifully sung, stated and conveyed message :)

Re: # 127

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Re: # 126

Thanks for the tip. I went on the web to look for her and listened to some of her song samples. I liked the more traditional versions rather than the lush arrangements, perhaps because the traditional stuff sounds newer to me than the other ones. Too many electric instruments tend to make it less unique I think.

When I was a kid in school I used to listen to a program on the BBC ``A taste of honey Irish style``. It was run by somebody called Gloria Honeyford (or Hunnyford, not sure about the spelling) and I was very interested in traditional arrangements of celtic and english folk tunes.

Since you put Planxty Irwin you might like this. Simple and pleasant.

Re: # 122

Swarrier: I suggest listening to the following:

1. Yulduz Usmanova - The Best of Yulduz
Song - Hur Kiz
An intro: Yulduz Usmanova is from Uzbekistan, along the fabled Silk Road trade route in Central Asia. Her singing is a fusion of intricately coded styles, which includes borrowings from Turkish and Persian rhythms and scales. She is accompanied by the tanbur (a long-necked lute) and the doira (a hand drum) but often wields a wicked backbeat and sees no reason why she should not use the latest electronic percussion and synthesizers. She is a folk singer and a club diva, a Moslem woman who wears miniskirts and was elected to her country`s parliament, and an international figure who resides in a rural area outside of Tashkent. Her elders admire her espousal of endangered folkways while young girls, emerging from the dual oppressions of Soviet life and religious fundamentalism, cherish her as a role model. Yulduz is a bundle of contradictions but knows exactly who she is. --Christina Roden
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Yulduz-Usmanova

2. The Pamet River Band - Celtic Vision
Planxty Irwin

I will post a few other later.

Enjoy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGCpQPC

#121 by swarrier,

Turns out mine is on tape as well. I thought I had it on CD (chin scratching). I can still probably rip it to .wav but that won`t be any good. Too large a file. But I`ll try to get it on CD and rip it for you :)

Re: # 122

Swarrier - Thank you.

Re: # 120
Zahra

Here it is
SzlaDzieweczka(Slow)

and the more modern version

Szla(Modern faster version)

and of course the Madhumati one.

Dil tadap

Re: # 119
C`mon, you can rip it into an mp3 and email it to me.-) I have it somewhere on tape in India. Don`t have it on a CD though, will probably try to get it somehow.

Re: # 118

The latter.

The documentary movie``SUAS`` you are planning to watch is indeed worth watching. I guess I watched the 1st show last year in NYC. I was very pleased to see that all their efforts got well acknowledged and rewarded in the end. I prefer D.C of the past 8-10 years.

#116 by swarrier

I have that song in my Rafi collection. If you really really want it, I can perhaps rip it for you and place it on some web archive .... but I`m too lazy .. :)

Re: # 117
Which one, the Dixie Chicks or the Polish folk dance one?

Re: # 110

Swarrier - Can you post the link for the song you were referring to? Thanks for an interesting post.

Thanks.

Re: # 115
Arthritic fingers cause ELP`s and CCR`s. Never so in speech. -)

I wonder if somebody can locate this Rafi/Khayyam melody from Shola or Shabnam on the net.
Jaane kya dhoondti rehti hain yeh aankhen mujhme
Raakh ke dher mein shola hai na chingaari hain

It ends with
aarazu jurm-e- vafaa jurm-e- tamannaa hai gunaaha
ye vo duniyaa hai jahaan pyaar nahin ho sakataa
kaise baazaar kaa dastoor tumhein samajhaaoon
bik gayaa jo vo kharidaar nahin ho sakataa ...

It is one of my favourite songs and I`ve only been able to locate an instrumental version played by Brian Silas on the piano.

Swarrier,

Just a mild criticism. Emerson Lake & Palmer shouldn`t be referred to as ELP, just as Creedence Clearwater Revival should never be referred to as CCR. It detracts from their status by turning them into mere pieces of scattered alphabets :)

Re: Pseudo Begum Nek-Perveen,

How many jahilae` mutliq -- ``ignorant`` jehadis listen to Emerson Lake & Palmer (head scratching icon).

Re: # 106 Good comments.
I wonder do American people get news of things going back at home ? What they think of evolutionary change demanded by lawyers and their suppression and sacrafices ? Americans stand by Lawyers or they hate lawyers and prefer khaki overlord ? ( bush is lawyer by training ?)

Re: # 111
DM , no offhand I cannot think of any direct Yiddish folk influences. There are some from the Lebanese composers (Rahbani brothers) and these are more North African but close enough to resemble Havaa Nagila.
The interesting thing is that Yiddish folk tunes may have also had some Roma influences and if you listen to Roma music it is very close to Indian folk. That isn`t very surprising of course.

# 110

I was wrong in this post. The Polish folk dance inspired tune is ``Dil tadap tadap ke keh raha hai`` not ``Julmi sang aankh ladi``. My mistake.

``Julmi sang aankh ladi`` is all Salil-da. What an incredible composer!!!

swarrier:

Are you aware of any uses of yiddish folk music by Indian music directors? BTW I was amazed at the similarity between Ghar Aaya and the Arabian song you had posted earlier.

Re: # 109
I like the Dixie chicks, actually I liked them prior to 1993 when they were more bluegrass oriented and before Natalie Maines joined them and they went mainstream. I don`t know if the video you are talking about is about the song ``Not ready to play nice``. I like a more raw sound than they do now, and I have Shut up and Sing on my Netflix queue.

As for the Latin scene most of my experience is with folk bands like the mariachis of Mexico, not mainstream pop. And of course Brazilian stuff by Caetano Veloso, Gil, Djavan is etc is great. I particularly like the Tango , Milonga (Astor Piazzolla) from Argentina. More classically Hector Villa-Lobos.

Actually I used to be amazed at how Indian music directors seamlessly mixed music from South America, Spain, Portugal(Fado) with Indian folk tunes and produced lovely music. Salil Chowdhury for example picked up an old Polish folk dance to produce ``Julmi sang aankh ladi``, in Madhumati.
I think the advantage then was that pop music had not yet been ruled by the record companies that sell music to kids with disposable incomes, and more real music was available to experiment with. Real folk music is the life breath of all musical forms even of the classical variety.

I don`t think music directors today are less creative. However there is less variety and more uniformity because of pressures from record companies and less experimenting and therefore less inspiration. Or perhaps they are just too lazy to go out and search for the real folk music. But personally I think things are looking up, I am hearing good music in India today. Recently somebody had posted a pretty neat song from Pakistan on UP(unplugged).

Anyway winter is gone now and hopefully Harvard square will throw up some nice artistes again to while an afternoon away.

Re: # 107

Swarrier - Most of the Latin groups have great music and songs but I do not care much for their recent music videos. The videos I really liked were from 80s and 90s. I am not sure if you have every listened to Dixie Chicks and the video of their latest album, that is a classic. I love it. I love it as much as I detest Nur Jehan and many of her ilks. I find some of the Indians extremely naive when they expect the other side of the border to like each and every singer or poetical verse on this side. Sorry not all of us have the nationalists` bent of mind. Many of us nurture a global perspective than the disgusting traditional nationalistic approach. In any case, the jahilae` mutliq -- ``ignorant`` does not need to be clarified on anything. He seems to come from a background where people have no regard and understanding of a different point of view. What`s new? That`s the typical mindset of a jehadi -- from other side of the border though :) Chowk has enough of that cursed mindset from the Pakistani side. I am glad the other side is also showing its True Colors (great song by C.Lauper).

#98 by ranjit,

It is not a matter of India/Pakistan. Neither is it a matter of taste. It is the difference between connoisseurs and philistines. Only a few people won`t settle for anything less than a gourmet meal, while most will stand in queue quite happily for a McDonalds.

Re: # 104
Even if there were recordings of Ustad Alladiya Khan and Pandit Bhaskarbuva Bhakale I am not very sure I would want to listen to them. One died in 1936 and the other in 1923. Recording techniques of that era could never do justice to their talents.
Even today most microphones and amplifiers thereby cannot pick up the variations of some musical instruments. Palghat Mani Iyer used to refuse to play in front of a microphone precisely because of that.
I`ve often listened to a mridangam whisper notes that somehow were never reproduced in a recording.

Ranjit
Why should a dislike of Nur Jahan etc be associated with a lack of culture? It`s personal. If somebody can appreciate Longfellow that`s a cultured outlook too.

Re:ahmedmadani#105

Madaniji, sorry for that interact, but if you look at a few interacts back, Zahra was saying that she never liked the voice of Madam Nur Jehan. In fact she said she could not stand a single song by her. Think of that!! Pakistan has hardly produced a handful of artistes such as Nur Jehan, Malika Pukhraj, Roshanara Begum, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan etc. I had to jump in and as an Indian, defend Madam Nur Jehan`s rich legacy such as ``Mujh se Pehli si Mohabbat, Mere Mehboob na Maang``. Please tell me if I am wrong in calling her uncultured after that.

As far as Ustad Alladiya Khan is concerned, he was the doyen of Jaipur gharana and I believe he got the title of gaan samraat. If I am not mistaken, Kesarbai Kerkar and Mogubai Kurdikar trained under him. Unfortunately I dont believe Ustadji made any recordings that survive to this date.

Re: # 98 Ranjitji.... It is always better many things unsaid , better left as a open secret. L. Ali Khan once said ``what is Sindhi culture, driving donkeys?`` The words came haunting him all life. It is better to say nothing many times in such matter.

I always wonder if vocal music is recoreded any where on any site by Alla Diya Khan and B.Bakhale. If some body knows let me know , Here ot at ahmedmadani2048@yahoo.com.
( also wonder if of their work is recordrded ?), Thanks

I always wonder if vocal music is recoreded any where on any site by Alla Diya Khan and B.Bakhale. If some body knows let me know , Here ot at ahmedmadani2048@yahoo.com.
( also wonder if of their work is recordrded ?), Thanks

Re: # 100
The said song is very popular in many health-clubs for cardio and aerobic exercises. It can make an average person lose twice the required calories. Madonna is doing very well. I guess she and Angelina Jolie are ready to adopt all the colored children of the world. I do like the song you have mentioned.

#99 dost ji

``Please do not turn this into a India-Pakistan thing. Remember, one of your favourite songs is by Faiz, a Pakistani poet``

did Faiz ever say that he was a Pakistani poet??

Zahra
I took your advice and went and asked my son about Shakira. He gleefully led me to the youtube clip with her and Wycliffe Jean. Impressive physique. Not a bad song either. Now I want to see Mallika Sherawat do that. -)
I heard another song of hers and if her voice has not been altered digitally it`s rather good.

For some reason that video got me thinking of Madonna`s La isla Bonita and this song by Lita Ford both of which I like.

ranjit#98:

Please do not turn this into a India-Pakistan thing. Remember, one of your favourite songs is by Faiz, a Pakistani poet. People do have different tastes. And, going by your logic, most Indians also no longer have taste as Reshamiyya and his ilk are the most popular singers today.

Re:zahraj#95

[..Do yourself a favor and get the hell out of your own bubble of ``taste``. ...]

Well, we all know that the only ``culture`` in Pakistan is agriculture. Its either jumping around doing ``balle balle`` or some religious crap. No wonder, your tastes are so in line with that. We Indians are cultured people and can appreciate sophisticated poetry and good music - something that you will only find boring and slow.

Re: # 96, ZahraJ dear,

Don`t get too harsh on the oldies. Please! I request you not to.

Samar

Re: # 95

{People with taste}

Do yourself a favor and get the hell out of your own bubble of ``taste``. It can vary from person to person. No need to jump too much on writing about taste. Seems like you just learned the concept. I will not divulge in other implications :)

Re:samar

[..My point is, don`t lament the era gone by like the death of a sweetheart....]

Yaar, do yourself a favor. Listen to Himesh Reshmaiyya and ``shakalaka baby``. Maybe thats what gives you the jollies. People with taste will always listen to Naushad, S.D. Burman, Salil Choudhury and so forth...

#93 drsab, actually that song is not bad, its lyrical..i mean something like for example the songs from izazat..like

katra katra milti hain, katra katra jeene do
or
mere kuch saman, tumhare paas pada hain

#92
yes, at times he can be too abstract and people keep wondering till now what the hell it means, like this song beautifully sung by lata in khamoshi, `` hum nay dekhi hai un aankhon ki mehkati khushboo, haath say chhoo kay isay rishtoN ka ilzaam na do``

#91 sometimes i think gulzar writes prose and chanllanges music-directors to compose ;-)

Nice article dost mittar ji!!

But,its not entirely hopeless situation in recent times. A R Rehman is probably the best music director at the moment and comparable with likes of Naushad and other greats. He has created some wonderful songs from Gulzar`s lyrics ( which, many find hard to understand).

In eightees, ghazal got re-introduced into films and there were some memorable ghazals sung by Jagjit Singh in films like Arth and Saath-Saath, by Asha Bhosle in Umrao Jaan and by Suresh Wadekar in Ghaman.Rudali was a musical hit by good compositions from Bhupen Hazarika. There was some good music in Gulzar`s Maachis and more recently, someone sung ``Allah kay banday......`` in a very touching way.

Again in eightees, there was a bhajan in Aghaat which I still remember, ``itni shakti hameiN dena daata, mann ka vishwaas kamzor ho naa...``

Among lyricists, we still have inimitable Gulzar and Javed Akhtar.

i must concede however that overall lyric-making in hindi movies in older was supeior. that is one reason apparently yash chopra asked javed akhtar to start writing songs (starting with silsila i think). this must be the time when even prolific workhorse anand bakshi stopped writing ;-)

samar yar i dont think i have heard first 3 songs..? i heard rehman sing some bulbule song (from gangster?) really off-key live in an award fuction..it was awful singing :(

i dont like kumar sahnu because he sings with ``chora hua`` voice as opposed to honest full-trhoated..i guess its an attempt to make it sexy for lady-public.

samar:

``Durability has to do with time and let 30, 40 or 50 years pass and then, if god permits, judge.``

Maybe. ``Yeh zindagi kay melay duniya mein kam na hongay, afsos hum na hongay``

...and I completely agree with you re. listening to Bhimsen, Bhide, Ganharav and others for saint poets. These days, I am enjoying Bhimsen`s Abhangs.


jang:

I also like that ``aeri ri re aeri ri, kya hain yeh paheli``.

Re: # 84
Zahra
I must look at this Shakira person some time. Doubtless my 13 year old will tell me with great delight who she is. As for hips , my wife does all the leg-pulling necessary to keep me in line. -) I`ll risk the Abida Parveen CD. I think it will be worth it.

Zeemax
I haven`t heard ELP in a long time but I have that Album back in India. You bring back memories of ``C`est la vie`` and college.
If you remember my favourite Beatle single `` A day in the life`` has the London symphony orchestra playing completely out of tune at the end to emphasise the point.

Samar
You make good points.

Jang
I`ll buy the ticket I think. The interesting thing is that even in the 50`s , 60`s and till today there have been beautiful songs composed that people forget. Do you remember the songs of Daman. There is a very seductive song sung by Hema Sardesai in that film. I thought the film was quite terrible.
For longevity and simplicity I was thinking of this Salil Chowdhury tune , that I heard first in my mother tongue Malayalam and then in Hindi and finally the original Bengali sung by Hemantda. It has such a beautiful lilt. I always see the tribal dance in Satyajit Ray`s Agantuk when I hear this tune.
dhitang

Re: # 81, dost-mittar saheb,

Durability has to do with time and let 30, 40 or 50 years pass and then, if god permits, judge. I can give you some clues. Take the songs of Ek duje ke liye, Sajan, Aashiqui, Lekin. Twenty years have passed and the music still lingers. So, if you keep listening you will find almost equal percentage of great music all the time. Yes, I must say that poetry started to disappear after 60s but that was bound to happen. Film songs have their own limitations. When you have to write thousands of songs you can`t fit the same emotions in a limited variety of meters year after year. So, gradually lyrics gave way to free verses, even meaningless, rather abstract lines. This is called the problem of form which has to keep on changing. You must change yourself to appreciate it. This has happened in all branches of art. My point is, don`t lament the era gone by like the death of a sweetheart.

#82 by swarrier and #83 by jung,

I accept that my list was too random. Moreover, that depends on your taste and the songs you relate to. For Kabir and other saint poets you can try Kumar Gandharv, Bhimsen Joshi and even Ashwini Bhide.

Samar

#79 by swarrier ,

A very good example of how a totally off-key (bey-sur) note can build the entire theme is the accoustic prelude of Emerson Lake & Palmer`s `From the Beginning` from their album `Trilogy`. This was the first time I realized Sur is not everything. In fact, Sur is quite predictable while the strategic placement of a single shockingly off-key note sets the mood for the whole composition.

I concluded from it that Sur can be learnt, but bey-sur is the work of creative genius :)

#79 by swarrier ,

A very good example of how a totally off-key (bey-sur) note can build the entire theme is the accoustic prelude of Emerson Lake & Palmer`s `From the Beginning` from their album `Trilogy`. This was the first time I realized Sur is not everything. In fact, Sur is quite predictable while the strategic placement of a single shockingly off-key note sets the mood for the whole composition.

I concluded from it that Sur can be learnt, but bey-sur is the work of creative genius :)

Re: # 79

Swarrier - I am not sure if anyone would care for Eric Clapton or Simon G or Frank S when Shakira`s ``hips don`t lie`` is playing. There has to be some spark or beat in the music.

The CD I had mentioned earlier has beautiful lyrics, but I do not care much for the music. It`s very slow. You have to be in a certain mood to listen to it. It can evoke nostalgia. Just wanted to give you heads up to avoid any disappointment.

this like sucks...i completely agree with warrier re k. amonkar, various new singers and composers (incl the great vanraj bhatiaa ...he also had a couple of asha bhosle number like chahe mar dalo raj, chahe kat dalo raja in sardari). i thankfully disagree with dm that todays songs wont last because they lack some inherent quality. i think even songs like ``aeri ri re aeri ri, kya hain yeh paheli`` from yadein (?) are great songs but get quickly forgotten because in todays world there is information deluge (warrier mentined takshak and those were very good songs too).

in ``good ol days`` we got to listen to some relatively simple songs like zillion times (e.g. lari lappa lari lappa etc) on vividh bharti and radio ceylon because there was no other entertainement medium available. repetition causes a song to become hit, this is a well-known thing in western pop-world where music publishers would blitz radio stations by paying-bribing DJs to repeat songs so that they become hits.

and mukesh is perfect for singing after a few drinks..

Re: # 80
Compositions by M M Kreem in Paheli, Shantanu Moitra in Parineeta , A R Rahman (Swades, Thakshak etc) when he is not being A R Rahman, are very good. Jatin-Lalit etc have given us pretty decent tunes.
Udit Narayan and Sonu Nigam, Kay Kay, Shreya Ghosal, Sunidhi Chauhan are good singers.

I don`t particularly care for the selections you have chosen.

samar#80:

Some of the new songs are good but they do not have the durability of the old songs. Why, I even found myelf humming Reshmayya`s ``jhalak dikhla ja`` after I heard it wherever I went to in India during my last trip.

Dost-Mittar and other old timers,

Sorry to disturb the nostalgic stupor of all of you senior citizens! But I think it is senseless to sing the past for such a long time when there are modern singers of great talent easily available. Problem is that you just don`t want to listen to the latest film music. You are too biased to give an ear to it. Don`t think for a moment that all that is coming out of Bollywood is harsh noise or fake pop music. For a try would you be kind enough to listen to following songs readily available online with Musicindia.com. I assure you on its behalf that it will not desecrate the image and the idol firmly ingrained in your minds. Just you listen to them peacefully with clear heart and open mind.

1)Ya ali by Zubeen from Gangster
2)Kaho na kaho by Amir Jalal from Murder
3)Main yahan hoon by Udit narain from Veer-Zara
4)Chori chori jab nazrain milin by Kumar Sanu and Sanjivani from Kareeb

There are many more but I`ll not waste my time listing all of them. First have some feel of the things new. I am not too sure you will bother yourself even this much.

Samar

Re: # 78
No there wouldn`t be. I mean would we listen to rock for example. It`s full of besur vocalists. Look at Eric Clapton singing ``Lay down Sally``, quite terrible vocally but still an odd quality to the voice. Or Mark Knopfler singing ``Romeo and Juliet``. In the begining I tried to listen only to the Dobro guitar and try to forget the vocals. But the song grows on you.
But as Zahra mentioned earlier a lot of it is personal taste. Some of it is the milieu you are born into. For example see the similarities here.

asmahan

and
awaara

The second tune adapted from the first is in the raaga Bhairavi. Most Indians/Pakistanis would like it. Most Arab listeners would love the other.

#74 by swarrier,

What you said about Mukesh is correct. He is said to have been `bey sura`, when compared with the likes of Rafi and Manna Dey. But there was indeed a magic in his voice. So it`s not always about the `sur` ... or is it? If it was only the `sur`, there wouldn`t be half the genres there are ...

#73 by ranjit,

She hasn`t heard her `Sunjey dil waley booey, ajey main nayu dhoey` either.

Philistine is right. And a hypocrite on top of that.

Re:ZahraJ

[..By the way, who is HR?....]

Just go to any Indian music channel and they are ALWAYS playing Himesh Reshmaiyya. Every song starts with a deep nasal twang with a ``OOOOUUUUuuuuuuuuuu!!!``, so you can imagine the impact on the ears. He is the modern day Cacofonix!!

Re: # 73

ranjit - You are more than welcome to appreciate the vocals that I would not even go near. That`s what happens when good poetry is sung by someone you are not very fond of. By the way, who is HR? I do not listen to indian singers or pre-partition singers. So, I guess I never developed the taste. But it seems that HR is a character from Lord of the Rings :) May I please suggest that you keep him in your back pocket...No need to let him out.

Re: # 67

I have a CD with Kishori Amonkar singing some of Kabir`s work. I have not listened to it in almost 10 years but I must dig it up. It was titled after Kabir`s ``Ghat Ghat mein panchi bolta``. There is one bhajan by Mirabai too. I did not think that it was as good as her other works. She is my favourite Hindustani classical vocalist. Her live performances are something to savour.

I used to have strong opinions on Mukesh too. However there is some magic in his voice and one must sometimes sacrifice perfectness for expression. Otherwise I would never be able to listen to any western singer except the classical ones. A large majority of pop , rock and even jazz musicians cannot hold a note to save their lives.

Lata was different. Most music directors kept her singing in the upper register because few people could sing accurately at that pitch and secondly I guess they wanted the heroine to be the good little virginal girl who never grew up. Lata`s voice seemed to have some fo that quality at that pitch. Some of her non film songs that explore the lower registers are superb.

I liked some of Nur Jahan`s earlier works but the later ones were rather limited.

Re:ZahraJ#72

[...I do not want to disrupt the romance and nostalgia in the air, but I have to express my dislike for Nur Jehan`s voice. I could never stand a single song sung by her.....]

Lahoulwilaquat!! Madam, you are a philistine!! I am sorry to say but you have no appreciation for any of the finer things in life. How can you make such a crass statement? Have you listened to her sing - ``Mujh se Pehli si Mohabbat, Mere Mehboob na Maang``? I think you should just listen to Himesh Reshmaiyaa day in and day out. Sorry to be harsh, but this was just too much to stomach....

I do not want to disrupt the romance and nostalgia in the air, but I have to express my dislike for Nur Jehan`s voice. I could never stand a single song sung by her. I do not even remember if I ever listened to one complete song by her. I would rather listen to the horrible voice of Mukesh...I am sorry that`s a bad example. Mukesh was even worse. ugh.
Lata was far more tolerable. Aasha B has some spark in her voice.

DM and kaal,

1. Meera opposed rituals and emphasized love (you may call it devotion). Nizamuddin, Khusro etc. did something similar.... don`t you think?

2. kaal you make a very subtle point. Let me go ahead and make a very heroic statement - for the unwashed masses in the sub-continent, Islam was NOT PERFECTLY true by and of itself. Perfection is being imposed by a subsect which has gained new followers - the chattering class or what I call Pakistani aunties. Mr. Bin Laden`s chamchas from the West were amazed at the `rituals` followed by the Afghans and desis. What appaled them further was that these rituals were tolerated in the camps. Furthermore, Mr. BL did not discourage such rituals .... as long as the `ritual` of jehad reigned supreme.

DM

True, debate and criticism (shastrarth) of all traditions WAS the Indian tradition, in which every heretic pretty soon became a hero or heroine to some groups of people (until Europe-educated Gandhi and Nehru decided to freeze the Indian mind with their silly insistence that every idea must be respected no matter how illogical and unacceptable it may be).

kaal#68:

I think that what GT meant was the tradition of speaking up against false rituals and superstitions which is a time-honoured tradition in India - from Buddha to Nanak and continues to the present day. Kabir was part of that tradition although I am not so sure about Mira Bai being in the same mould. She was more into devotion than religious reform.

GT

I think the Indic view has always been that while religions can be false, or take false steps, there can never be one perfectly true, and certainly not the sole true religion. Any `religion` that made such a claim is, by Indian definition, a patently false religion.

You would, therefore, be hard put to find anybody in long years of Indian traditions ever making such an exclusivist claim.

If DM Sahib disagrees, we could surely listen.

Re: # 66

swarrier - Interestingly I learned about Kabir by a learned Indian fellow on Chowk. He had just mentioned Kabir to me and I guess the same year I came across this CD and was pleasantly surprised. Besides all the fiascos on Chowk, that`s a good introduction to something very sweet.

Re: # 65

How on earth did this thing get posted twice. I`m begining to believe there are gremlins on the net. -)

Zahra
Thanks for the CD suggestion. I have not heard it and I shall definitely get a copy. I began to appreciate Hindi/Urdu later in life not being a native speaker.

Poetry in my first years in school was a dreadful subject. I always thought as a kid that a person called Anonymous wrote a lot of English poetry that he shouldn`t have.

Music was a different experience. I craved complexity in it. I suppose you could say music soothes the dumb beast. -)

RE: #59
GT
I know very little about Amir Khusro that is not common knowledge.

Re: # 55
Zahra
[Swarrier - Poetry, Music, Movies, Art, Literature and other derivates are very taste specific.]

I`m tempted to say that this is true of Physics , Maths et al. I liked calculus and Electrodynamics and Quantum mech, but was never really enthused with number theory or mechanics. -)

What you say is true to some extent? But you know it takes some time and effort to appreciate any form of art. You might hate a Picasso or a Wagner at the first sight or hearing and then you might go back to look at them in a different light later, and begin to appreciate their creations.

I`m sure some of the elders (they sound like they come out of Tolkien) must have lightened up sometime and romped to ``Aana meri jaan meri jaan , Sunday ke Sunday``... -)

The Bahadur Shah Zafar verse in the film Lal Qila was sung by Rafi and the music was by S N Tripathi. It`s been done by a whole lot of other folks too.

Re: # 61

DM:

You may very well be right. The tradition of weaning people away from the `false religion` always existed and still does in India, even within the Indic religions. Think Mira Bai here for example. According to me, and I know nothing about this aspect, Khusro`s genious (he was supposed to be very arrogant you know) lay in a very intuitive undertanding of the spiritual desires of the common people. Through this, he also understood pathways for reform. At that time there was very little of today`s Hinduism or Islam.

Re: # 62

Swarrier - While we are on the subject, for me it`s always the ``chemistry`` that has to go well :) I have been a calculus and chemistry person through and through. Physics was ok. Heat transfer and Design was where my passion lied once upon a time.

I suggest listening to Gulzar`s introduction to Abida Parveen singing Kabir. That`s the most magnificent work I have come across in ages. I do not ever share my CDs or music collection, but I gave that away to my father`s youngest sister (pophi jaan) who has the appreciation for the said verses and won`t have found them on her own in DC. That`s a huge step for me to part with something that meant a lot to me. I never missed that CD since I still have the cover and it gives me an impression that I still have it somewhere. I may not ever buy it again since I can get it on Rhapsody online. I felt like mentioning that CD since it brings artists from both side together to create magnificence.

People, like BJK, may come back to give me a sermon, ``ama zahra ji, how could you ever think of having kabir, india and pakistan in one sentence? We are all derivates of the same ancestors.`` And, he may have his own point in that :)

I like the cover and the message it conveys. Check it out if you haven`t already.

http://www.sonarupa.co.uk/itm00977.htm

Re: # 55
Zahra
[Swarrier - Poetry, Music, Movies, Art, Literature and other derivates are very taste specific.]

I`m tempted to say that this is true of Physics , Maths et al. I liked calculus and Electrodynamics and Quantum mech, but was never really enthused with number theory or mechanics. -)

What you say is true to some extent? But you know it takes some time and effort to appreciate any form of art. You might hate a Picasso or a Wagner at the first sight or hearing and then you might go back to look at them in a different light later, and begin to appreciate their creations.

I`m sure some of the elders (they sound like they come out of Tolkien) must have lightened up sometime and romped to ``Aana meri jaan meri jaan , Sunday ke Sunday``... -)

The Bahadur Shah Zafar verse in the film Lal Qila was sung by Rafi and the music was by S N Tripathi. It`s been done by a whole lot of other folks too.

GT:

Khusrau was perhaps the first Hindi poet, though he was equally good at Persian poetry. His poetry is a classic combination which can be considered as both folk and mystic, for example, his classic ``babul mora neehar chhuto hi jaaye``. BTW I sometimes wonder if the beautiful song ``chhaap tilak sab chheeni re`` was meant to wean Hindus were from ``false religion``.

HN#52:

Gulzaar is indeed in a class by himself. Unfortunately, I am not as familiar with his work as of others but he does come across as a master of free-verse, such as ``mera kuchh samaan vapas kar do`` or Rudali`s hauntingly beautiful song, ``dil hoon hoon karay``.

But I would disagree that the Urdu poetry`s only growth ``was in the leftist/socialist/humanistic political poetry``. The only thing the Urdu poets sacrificed for films was their persian vocabulary. And romance oozes through many of their creations. Almost every ghazal sung by Talat Mehmood was rich in romance and/or philosophy. Listen for example, to Rajendar Krishan`s ``yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chaandni teri ik ada pe nisaar hai`` in Sangdil or his ``Yoon hasraton ke daagh mohabbat mein dho liye`` or Sahir`s ``kabhi kabhi meray dil mein khyal aata hai``. Even Hindi poets like Bharat Vyas and Shailander have produced wonderful romantic songs like:

sur aadha hi shyam ne saadha
raha radha ka pyaar bhi aadha
aadhe chhalke nayan, aadhe dhalke nayan
rahi man mein milan ki voh baat aadhi

Or this one from Shailendra:

chori chori aa kay piya baithna sirhane
jaan ke main chup rahungi neend ke bahaane
mujhe chhed ke jagaana re sajna
meray sapnon mein aana re sajna.

I could go on and on..

Re: # 57

swarrier, DM:

Since we are onto this - folk, classical music, urdu, hindi etc. Would it be too much to ask you to get into Amir Khusro (Khusrau). No not an article on him, there are many. But sharing some knowledge, here on ``interacts``, which is not commonly known.

What can be more mysterious, spiritual and tittilating as:

``Chap tilak sab cheen .....``

Jane Kahan Gaye Wo...

Re: # 55
HN
You can almost picture yearning in those lines
Mora gora ang laile
Mohe shyam rang dai de
Chup jaaoongi hee raat mein
Mohe pee ka sang dai de
Gulzar is wonderful. Another person who enriched Hindi films was Shailendra. It`s a pity that formulaic Hindi films never went beyond the man meets woman formula for lyrics in those films to explore ideas other than yearning, love and all that jazz. I think more lyrics on social consciousness, poetry on contemporary themes would have been wonderful. Given more a chance for lyricists to explore.

``This is a personal take, but perhaps worth pondering over. Urdu poetry got stuck in romantic phase for so long that it got pickled in it. Its only organic growth after that was in the leftist/socialist/humanistic political poetry. I am here of course speaking of only popular culture.``
HN,
Urdu is a language that resists corruption; in this sense it is different from Hindi /English. It requires non trivial education to speak write it correctly;which is probably not different from any other language.But urduwallahs will resist any attempt of cockney Urdu to be included in the literary canon..more vehemently than say,Hindiwallahs.What this does is that it effectively precludes a social class from participating in the literary canon. Even the leftist poetry in Urdu has a romantic /elitist slant to it. Its not ``zameen kii kavita`` a la Nagarjun or Trilochan.

Re: # 50

Swarrier - Poetry, Music, Movies, Art, Literature and other derivates are very taste specific. One person may worship anything sung by Tallat Mahmood, whereas another fellow may not be able to tolerate his voice. I am reminded of some elders who used to play this song at their leisure moment. I am sorry, but I truly dislike it :(

I have read Bahadur Shah Zafar growing up and the poem you have quoted is indeed pretty. I have not heard anyone sing or recite it besides my own self(who used to like reciting poetry once upon a time).

Having learned kathak, I am reminded of my instructor who used to make us practice on some classics. That`s my only memory of these classics. Poetry is definitely a pretty addition to one`s life. If it`s well sung or well recited (like Gulzar`s beautiful articulation), then it leaves you with a beautiful memory. If you do not like the tune of the song or the voice of the singer, then you develop a dislike for the poem or the ghazal or whatever.

Re: # 51
Ranjit
That is a lovely song. Shivranjani seemed to be a particular favourite of Shankar Jaikishen. Another one I like is from the film Professor, ``Awaaz de ke , humen tum bulao, mohabbat me itna.....
A couple of my favourites are by Lata , ``Khabar mori na leeni, bahut din beete`` LP and Bharat Vyas joining up in Sant Gyaneshwar, and ``Agar tum ho saagar , main pyaasi nadi hoon``, Jaidev and Naqsh Lyallpuri in Tumhare Liye.

Bahadur Shah Zafar`s ``Na kisi ki aankh , ka noor hoon`` in Lal Qila too.

#52 HN

[…moved to Bollywood enriched Hindi lyrics at the cost of Urdu poetry]

The implication that poetry – when it gets adapted into a movie song becomes less of poetry is truly mind-boggling.

Write the stuff in Deonagri.

Write the same stuff in the wiggly script.

What’s the difference?! It sounds the same and it feels the same.

BTW, I was concerned that those ``Nagas`` got to you before you could get to ``complete`` their ``story``.

So, when are you going to start EARNING your “featured writer” status again?

DM,Warrier et all,

It is great to read this article for its nostalgia, above all else. Somewhere there was a mention of Gulzar, who I think was the last of the Mohicans in terms of the great migration of Urdu poets to Bollywood in the forties/fifties.

Also, while Sahir, Majrooh, Kaifi, Shakeel and Hasrat have got their due, I personally think Gulzar is often erroneously considered a lightweight. My personal take is that while the entire horde of Urdu poets who moved to Bollywood enriched Hindi lyrics at the cost of Urdu poetry, Gulzar alone has outlived them, literally and figuratively.

His being alive and kicking is perhaps out of tune with nostalgic eulogy. But, strictly from a poetic sensibility, I think Gulzar is the most modern, most “grown” lyricist in Hindi films straddling at least two distinct eras of Hindi music.

This is a personal take, but perhaps worth pondering over. Urdu poetry got stuck in romantic phase for so long that it got pickled in it. Its only organic growth after that was in the leftist/socialist/humanistic political poetry. I am here of course speaking of only popular culture.

Gulzar has singlehandedly scraped political paint off Urdu poetry and actually gone on and done things with the language that is still very unpalatable to the purists. The man who started out with mera gora ang laile has also penned hits that can never be connected to him. Think of Goli maar bheje mein in Satya, And yet, in Dil Se he came out with that most brilliant line….jis ki zubaan Urdu ki tarah.

He also used his poetry for unromantic/anti-romantic lyrics like dil vil pyaar vyaar mein kya janoon re…and…tujhe ho na ho mujh ko to itnaa yakeeN hai….mujhe pyaar tumse nahi hai nahi hai…. His romantic poetry is a rich vein of Hindi lyrics through out his career. But those haunting Yaara silli sili…an occasional Beedi Jalaai le jigar se piya…and then that sensuousness of …. Ek so solah chand ki rateiN aur tumhare kaanDhe ka til….and Raah pe rehteiN haiN, yaadoN mein basar kar teiN hai…it takes a lot of maturity to fill out the sheer emptiness of a truck driver….

As regards his lyrics beating the easy metric rhyming scheme…again I think it is what underlines the man’s changing…and growing as a lyricist/poet. I remember reading how R D Burman, a duh with Urdu…and perhaps not really a great Hindi scholar either…saying to Gulzar that he cut the articles of Times of India into some sort of lines…and asked him to put it to tune. That RD’s genius combined with Gulzar’s so well and is now lost….is something Hindi films will always miss. Vishal Bharadwaj is of course a promising talent with the same sensibility.

And let’s not even attempt to put Javed Akhtar in the same bracket as Gulzar…please. Not that anyone has done it so far…but this is just a preemptive statement to cease and desist.


HN

Re:swarrier#50

Speaking of Raag Shivranjani, the Kishore song ``Mere Naina Sawan Bhado`` is also in Shivranjani. Awesome raag!!

Re: # 49
DM and ZahraJ
It`s actually a pretty decent tune. It`s based on the raaga Shivranjani and it conveys pathos pretty well. There is also a tonal variation where a different note is used at one point. Very nice.

As Charles Ives said `` beauty in music is too often confused with something that lets the ear lie back in an easy chair.``

DM, I have a great fondness for Vanraj Bhatia as I have for Khayyam.

ZahraJ#46:

This is not among my most favourite songs but it served as an appropriate title for this article as it conveyed its messge very well.

As to why we like melancholy music, ahmedmadani has given a good answer. For a musical answer, go to the following website and click on ``hain sab se madhur voh geet``:

http://www.dishant.com/album/Legend_-_Talat_Mahmood_-_The_Silken_Voice.html

swarrier#45:

I agree that Khayyam has not given completely classical music but, in my opinion, Sardari Begum`s music is also semi-classical and that is very much up Khayyam/s alley. As you would be aware, the inspiration for Sardari was Begum Akhtar and some of her best compositions are with Khayyam. I tried to search for her rendition of Ghalib`s ``Sab kahaan kuchh Lal-o-Gul mein numaaiyaan ho gaye`` with music by Khyaam but couldn`t find it. Try a listen if you can get hold of it.

Re: # 46
A good question why we long for melancolic tunes. I can not answer clearly but but tragic things touch our hearts much deeply and we remember distinctly than joyful things. The legend tells the Buddha was so much affected by sorrow he abandoned happy life.
If you think of all major plays we appreciate by shakespear ,Hamlet, Othollo,McBeth, Julious Ceasar and crowning all them is King Lear are all with Pathos . Classical Greek Drama is tragic only and destruction of men and women by orginal sin , which as basic character flaw. If you have listened to western music played at requium or Funerals is very touching. A very touching music is played in Dr. Zivago music when the child is at funeral of his mother and leaves flowers and starts going back with his uncle and the notes are haunting( there two more melancholic tunes for two more occasions in that movies) and they reverberate as they are melancholic. Or famous Turkish death march/ Vinnea is very great sorrowful majestic music. And you remember notes and they can be stunning. In old age we mature and past haunts and you can listen to meloncolic tunes natural to your mental disposition.
Good day.
Meloncoly is also part of sublimation of older mind and its bit with nostalgic ethos not so natural with young people.I feel as we grow old and our children move away on thier way we are left alone and we know we have to carry our cross its lonely path and on this path some thing, like young people bubbly couple gigling or old cat feebly walking you remember times gone and never to come one , or old cats gone charm just remainds you if you are sensetive.As we grow old one becomes , we note mistakes we made and there is pathos and so we old like meloncolic tunes.

Dost Mittar -

Hello! Hope you have been keeping well. As soon as I saw the title, I was reminded of the weird tune of this song. I am sorry I never liked the tune and the music behind this song. The lyrics are pretty, but it`s a very depressing tune. I understand that you have tried to compile the music of the bygone era and used the title to attract your audience. I never understood the reason behind our elders liking these melancholic tunes.

In any case, it was nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice break from Chowk.

Regards,
Z

Re: # 44
I cannot make such a statement regarding composers that differ so widely in styles. I do not think Khayyam has given a completely classical score of this genre.
I have heard a lot of Aarti Anklikar since she is a purely classical singer and very little of Shubha Mudgal to compare the two. Vani Jairam is not entirely my cup of tea.

swarrier#43:

Yes, I have these in my collection. Good songs. But I think that Khayam would have done a better job; also I would have preferred to see somenone like Vani Jairam or Shubha Mudgal instead of Arti Angalikar as the main singer for Sardari.

DM listen to these, you may have already hear them but they are lovely from Sardari Begum a film made in the 90`s

Ghar Nahin

Sanwariya

Huzoor

Raah mein

ghanerii zulfo.n ke saaye me.n chhup ke jii letaa........the original poetry of sahir and not filimi one of silsila....dont think he could be gay...admi stands for human in urdu and all humanity loving is gay them....

swarrier:

Yes, it is from `Pyaasa`. Strange that I took Sitar for a Western instrument.

Re: # 39
DM
It`s a lovely song but the instruments are Indian, you can hear the sitar and bansuri in the background as the tabla etc. By the way the person who posted that on youtube says its from Kaagaz ke phool and if my memory serves me right it is from Pyaasa.
Anyway it does not matter if the instruments are Western or not. We have used the violin in Indian music for a long time and the harmonium was borrowed by us from the Portuguese and modified.
It is the manner of use that would distinguish a western tune from an Indian one. Got to go now. Will be back later.
Its a pleasure reading your article and all is not doom and gloom. Our music will survive.

swarrier#38:

Sorry for the mistyping. That was the wrong video (Urstruly`s recommendation). The ``jaane ky tu ne kahi`` video is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHfGON2rnhQ

Re: # 36
DM
I think our views differ here. I don`t like the orchestra at all in the `Ranjish hi sahi`` video. The strings are too lush and the music has too much of schmaltz. But to each his own.

I like the one from Mr.and Mrs.55, and Dil par hua aisa jaadoo and Jaane kahan mera jigar gaya jee from the same film would emphasise your point.

My favourite line from the movie is when Lalita Pawar asks Guru Dutt `` Aap socialist hain?`` and he says , ``Nahin, cartoonist hoon``. -)

#24 DM-jee

[indeed the term Saqi refers to a boy and not a girl.]

NOW you tell me!

swarrier#34:

I liked the music of Sangdil but am not very familiar with his other work. As for orchestra, the point I was trying to make was that too much of orchestra can drown out the effect of the songs and the melody. Here is my idea of the economical use of orchestra: Jaane kya tu ne kahi (instruments are western, btw):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adBGsnYiaZk

BTW songs can be both fun, playful and melodious. Here is an example: Madhubala in Mr. and Mrs. 55 with music of O.P. Nayar and voice of Geeta Dutt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Wc93YnAaI

Enjoy!

Re: # 31
DM
You would agree an orchestra is nothing but a vehicle for the music. The real strength of an orchestra lies in providng chordal harmony, a theme that is not exploited by the music of the subcontinent. Our music is monadic and based almost completely on melody and rythm. That may explain the partiality most of us have to more melodic compositions. A large orchestra can negate some of the effect.
In my opinion Salil Chowdhury was the one music director who used an orchestra in a refreshing manner in Hindi films. Often his orchestra does not follow the voice or primary melody but skirts around the main theme This is closer to the western ideal where there are different melodies played by different groups of instruments. Few other music directors have achieved this.
There are other music directors who are out of the public eye like Bhaskar Chandavarkar and Hridayanath Mangeshkar who dabbled in Hindi film music. They are great too.
I am peeved that you did not mention another of my personal favourites, Sajjad Hussain.
Very few compare to him. Listen to the songs of Sangdil, Rustom Sohrab, Hulchul.....

Cheers

Re: # 27

Agree with you 100%, except on Bob-Woolmering him. Let BJ find a Gandhian way to deal with him.:)