The Invisible Men

Paks is the land of the kings- it`s a country where hard work and struggle for your bread and butter is looked down upon with pity rather than pride. A single mother, working and raising her children at the same time, is only looked down upon- rather than applauding her for her hard work and spiritual strength and stamina, other married women feel better about themselves, they gloat with immense pride at their easy lives; a completly contrary attitude is seen in the west.

As a result, for those of us who own no land have to work hard for ourselves and our families. We need the appreciation of our hard work in financial and social terms. That is why, we rather struggle in the west, knowing that our hard work will pay off eventually.

I know a couple who own a house worth qaurter of a million pounds, you would think that its a home of some investment banker- no, the wife works in catering at her local hospital and the husband works at a car factory.

That would never be possible here in pakistan.

Re: # 39

masadi,

...... how do you know that to be true ? have you ever `talked` to a dog ? ....... how do you know god did not create dog in his own image - is the fact that a `dog` is his name spelt backwards simply a coincidence ?

Hamid mian, I think it is best if you stay with what you are good at, sipping lattes and cracking yourself up over your own nonsensical jokes. Note that regardless of how your dimwit mind sees its image in the monkey, animals can develop conditioned responses in their behavior patterns which in no way suggests an ability to develop or use complex language of possess a concept of self. Monkey see, monkey rewarded, monkey do is not the same as evaluating yourself through the eyes of others.... comprendey?

Re: # 36

masadi,

...... indeed, you are a very foolish person ! ....... sorry, but i had to say that because sometimes you say things that are asinine .......

``alienation is a uniquely human phenomenon because humans are the only self-evaluating conscious beings that have evolved language to understand the minds of each other as well as develop a concept of self``

...... you should watch the national geographic channel instead of staying glued to qtv - you will realize that chimps and gorillas are more eveolved beings than mullahs ....... or you can get a dog as a pet - you will be surprised to find out that they are more `human` than most people ...........

``that have evolved language to understand the minds of each other as well as develop a concept of self``

HAHA!

If that`s true then, kaka has (d)evolved a language of `bhangi and chutya` to `understand the minds` of ashraf-ul-mahlooqaat like you. Please give credit where it is due.

To say that you are deluding yourself when you think you understand the minds of others is beneath kaka. All kaka has is text from you manifesting juvenile understanding of language and `self-evaluation` serving as handmaidens, fellating your anti-west mullahism. The silver lining is that we are all going to die eventually and your `sense of low self-worth` will also find a home in this nothingness.

In the meantime, let us contemplate the words of the Quran where ants on couches are discussing self-preservation with Solomon and then the `hud-hud` birdie is playing mind games with the king. Kindly use your evolved language to understand what`s on Allah`s mind with self-conscious birds and high-faluting ants..

hamzaad writes <<< Brother masadi,

Don`t rail against kaka just because you are STILL an underachiever bhangi in your preferred social system of azaan and domestic servitude. >>>

Your introduction to the response tells me the level of your intellect. Whether I am or am not an underachiever has nothing to do with the fact that alienation is a uniquely human phenomenon because humans are the only self-evaluating conscious beings that have evolved language to understand the minds of each other as well as develop a concept of self. You mistake adaptation to an environment based on instinct, as is the case with animals, with alienation and then claim to be some big shot. Further whether trees and animals feel ``alienated`` was not the point, the point was that a social system generates alienation, not only among implants but among locals as well, and finally, the social system I live under was ``caused`` more by colonization and the neo colonial setup than Islam

hamazad

What big books you (and Raw_Dust) read! :)

OK, here is a serious question. Please don`t make fun of me for asking it, because everyone knows - you are THE kaka, and nobody else is. :)


What does Wittgenstein say, or will say, about the following very curious, fascinating, and far more common situation:

---

We all know about beetles, mice, turtles, and other animals. Some we hate, others we love.

But suppose a few hundred (or a million, or a billion) people come and tell you that they know about another - the loveliest that ever lived or will live - animal that noboy other than them has seen. It`s called the treetle. Everyone must make space in their house for this new beauty - the treetle. It`s terribly useful. So every treetilite feels a strong moral obligation to let you know. Just in case you later decide to accuse them of not being good neighbors and all.

These people are terribly excited. Each describes it to you in breathless terms. Some describe it as though it were a fresh-born lamb (except that it is nothing like any lamb you saw). Some see it as an elephant. Others sketch it as a cat. Others claim that everything that breathes is actually a treetle, but in a form that only they can see, or realize their treetleness. Still others educate you that since God made all animals, all animals were originally a treetle. (Unfortunately) these treetles diverged and changed /degraded into rats and cats, and dogs and deers. May good God take these latter, flawed animals to their early grave, so you may have sufficient space again - in your heart, home, and neighborhood - for the glory of the treetle.

So with faith in Witgensetein, and with some idea about human mind work, you request these treetlites to point out to you one treetle, so you could see for yourself this divine wonder. Sure. Everyone informs you that their mamoo jaan - a particularly clever man long ago, according to most accurately kept historical records - had one. Mamoo jaan and his treetle are naturally dead (may they rest in peace together and forever). But if you wait till year 2250, you can check one out for yourself.

---

Would Wittgenstein say that treetle exists? If it exists, then what is it - an animal or something else?

A serious answer please. I am engaging you as phokat ka Wittgentein consultant, and would not pose a nonserious question (existential or otherwise) to you.

`Wittgenstein’s Beetle

In his Philosophical Investigations, Wittgenstein uses an analogy in an attempt to clarify some of the problems involved in thinking of the mind as something over and above behaviour. Imagine, he says, that everyone has a small box in which they keep a beetle. However, no one is allowed to look in anyone else’s box, only in their own. Over time, people talk about what is in their boxes and the word “beetle” comes to stand for what is in everyone’s box.

Through this curious analogy, Wittgenstein is trying to point out that the beetle is very much like like an individual’s mind. No one can know exactly what it is like to be another person or experience things from another’s perspective (look in someone else’s box), but it is generally assumed that the mental workings of other people’s mind are very similar to our own (everyone has a beetle which is more or less similar to everyone else’s). However, it does not really matter – he argues – what is in the box, or whether everyone has a beetle, since there is no way of checking or comparing. In a sense, the word “beetle” – if it is to have any sense or meaning – simply means “what is in the box”. From this point of view, the mind is simply “what is in the box” – or rather “what is in your head”.

Wittgenstein aruges that although we cannot know what it is like to be someone else, to say there must be special mental entity called a mind that makes our experiences private is wrong. Part of the reason he thinks this way is because he considers language to have meaning through public usage. In other words, when we talk of having a mind (or a beetle), we are using a term that we have learnt through conversation and public discourse. Furthermore, the word we have learnt can only ever mean “whatever is in your box” – i.e. your mind – and should not therefore be used to refer to some entity or special mental substance since no one can know that such a thing exists (we cannot see into other people’s boxes).`

Re: # 32

Brother masadi,

Don`t rail against kaka just because you are STILL an underachiever bhangi in your preferred social system of azaan and domestic servitude.

Trees and dogs also function through system of interaction with other organisms. A mango tree, when uprooted and planted elsewhere will be `udaas` and not bear fruit for several years before blossoming again. Of course, your mullah model of social interaction has no place for animals and plants because your chutya religion is not smart enough to think through self-awareness theories of other living things.

Your models of understanding the uniiverse is severely handicapped by the revelatory `ashraf-ul-makhlooqaat` status of humans. Step outside that matchbox and witness Alienation BEING MANIFESTED in various ecosystems.

PS. Look up Wittgenstein and his though experiment of `Beetle in the Box` and maybe you will understand that feelings (like Alienation) can only be evaluated if they are MANIFESTED. If hamidm is not MANIFESTING `traits of Alienation`, please leave him alone and administer those doses of azaan back in your ear to cure thyself mullah!

hamzaad writes <<< Alienation is a feeling that that organisms (even dogs and trees) may manifest. >>>

After reading this nonsense I need not have responded to your idiocy par excellence. Alienation is restricted to conscious, self evaluating organisms, unlike dogs and trees, and it is a product of a social system, not some ghost affecting your psyche from on high.

Re: # 25

thats a bit overly reductive, isnt it?

minhaj-man: Nothing is sacred when you are in your 20s (assuming you are a 20-something) least of all ``memories``, which should be cherished as opposed to worshiped, from a distant future, of the past that was yesterday.

Thanks yoda.

``I miss the US too, but what I miss about it is``

Senhor Masadi:
I am guessing, there is at least one thing you`d definitely be missing in Pakistan and that is the grand library system as it is in us (college libraries or the cities`) and come to think of: old bookstores and recordstores. I don`t think there can be an argument about that.

`#25 by masadi on April 18, 2007 6:10am PT

it is a trait of a social system and the US social system is an Alienation generator par excellence.`

You are an idiot par excellence. Alienation is a feeling that that organisms (even dogs and trees) may manifest. IT IS NOT A TRAIT HOVERING OVER THE SKIES OF THE LAND OF THE FREE! You can feel it in the middle of karbala fighting alongside Hussain or in America when your selected reading is rejected in your book club. The cheerful morons that you resent are really your personal demons and cannot be projected onto people who have a firmer control of their destinies.

Unlike you, a few desis in this country and in Pakistan control their own destinies. Your middle class angst are a product of your own shortcomings. If you can`t hold onto a job in a private university because some desi entrepreneur deemed you irrelevant, HE IS IN CONTROL and you are just another uncle with a pocket protector..

I find it funny how people adapt a lifestyle based on what is considered cool and curious about the penchant of anglofobs to be accepted by white society. If you are going to embrace a particular lifestyle then do solely for what it stands for and what it means to you, and not for any wrong notions of social acceptance.