Thank You Bob, Thanks Inzi!

If you have a passion for pakistani cricket check out the website www.battinglegends.com

Mohtaram rf786 or rf786, esq. :-)

Yaar, this is too much of a reach:

``Mohd Yusuf or Yuhana are the same person/player. Here again we have to blame the Tablighees for denying Pakistan two-three years of Yuhana brilliance. Moyo (Yuhana) must have suffered tremendous pain and personal anguish during his conversion period thus the poor patchy form in that period.``

It`s true that ``we are all making assumptions based on our interpertations of events.``, but surely, interpretations should also give import to plausibility?

I mean, sometimes the obvious or more simpler explanation IS the true one. My own interpretation of Yuhana`s bad form (I don`t quite recall this patch, but I`ll take you on your word here) is that, yes, troubled by the implications of his impending conversion, he could not focus properly on his cricket. Having taken the leap, he was at peace wtih himself (no longer conflicted) and was thus better able to focus. For good measure, his conversion (it could have been to Buddhism and `produced` the same result, IMO) also helped him go beyond his earlier capabilities, as batting is a skill that is helped by a certain self-centeredness (not in the egotisitcal sense, though)

By the way, PM stands for Patrick Masih, so you know where I`m coming from. My personal religious convictions are quite irrelevant. :-)

Re: # 32

Dear PM,

To deny the obvious wud be stupidity, Moyo has achieved record breaking performances post conversion ie finding peace with himself and his surroundings. But, Moyo the cricketer was part of the Pak cricket team when he was not a Muslim and was always regarded as a class above the rest and was selected on his merit. Then again, form can come and go but class remains the same and that is what Moyo has. He may change religions but his classy batting prowess was and remains the same. Now you can make the assumption that it has suddenly improved post conversion, I will contend that its a statistical misnomer cause his performance was adversly impacted by extraneous factors had they not intervened this performance was always going to be there, it was just a matter of time.

As u may have gathered from my username Iam Arif Sunni, which is totally irrelevant for this discussion. Thanks.

Chhotay bhai, aisa naheen hai. Asim Kamal deserves to be in the Test Squad but not the one day side simply because he is a poor fielder (outfield) and has yet to prove himself to be a fluent stroke player. tuk tuk master. As for Hasan Reza, well this guy like many other batsmen has not got a fair chance and that is the gist of the argument. Not every player has a great start (saeed anwar) while some players show early promise (Javed Miandad). Imran Khan never liked Saeed Anwar and was proven wrong, one of the very few but important mistakes made by the great Khan. But he was a man enough to admit his mistake.

Another factor that we cannot ignore is dressing room enviroment. If the captain is always on your case then there is additional pressure. If the entire team is attending religious sessions expounding the Sunni viewpoint and calling all others Kaafirs then that is not a very healthy enviroment for any person. Maagar aapko yeh baath samath mein naheen aathee, kiunke shahid majority rules. (PS: I belong to the Sunni faith, totally irrelevant).

Mohd Yusuf or Yuhana are the same person/player. Here again we have to blame the Tablighees for denying Pakistan two-three years of Yuhana brilliance. Moyo (Yuhana) must have suffered tremendous pain and personal anguish during his conversion period thus the poor patchy form in that period. Had he been allowed to flourish who knows that cud have been another golden period of greatness. You will say specualtive and I will respond....thats an opinion, nobody has the magic crystal ball or the inside story, we are all making assumptions based on our interpertations of events.

The Irish defeat is not the only problem nor was it the main reason for Inzi`s criticism. Here again you are making simplistic conclusions. This problem has been around for sometime and was greatly exposed in the Oval fiasco when our esteemed spiritual talisman refused to take the field. Then of course there is a long list of complaints that have been presented again and again.

And lets not slam our poor domestic cricket structure the usual bogey. When players like Yuhana, Inzimam, Malik, Asim Kamal etc etc are discovered thru the domestic circuit then no one cries foul, its only when they cannot defend their personal failure they start looking for excuses and why not the most popular scapegoat.

Aur Bhai Maafi tho ooper walay sey mangain, but why kind of proof do you need? Signed, notarized affidavits? Here we are struggling to find the killers of our coach and you want proof for a social malignancy? ``You do not want to hear the truth cause you cant handle the truth`` Jack Nicholsan.....A Few Good Men.

hasan,
(i typed out this reply a few hours ago but was unable to send it through as my internet connection was down. Will post again after reading the more recent posts, if needed.)

My friend, it wasn`t a challenge in the taunting sense. I am glad you did so well stepping up to the plate. The reports you provided are indeed cause for serious concern, assuming they`re true.

Maybe it is just my wont to believe that Inzi was still influenced more by his Multaani sufi Islam that kept me from believing reports of some of the more egregrious instances of subtle religious persecution within the team. That and the fact that many folks do seem to have little more than knee-jerk reactions to any public show of religion, with which I have no problem as long as it`s not forced down another`s throat.

I`m now waiting for at least some of these `anonymous sources` to come out. Surely with Inzi now out and the more secular Yunis at the helm, some of the `religiously offended` would feel more secure speaking without anonymity?

Thanks.

Another piece of news....
Junaid Jamshed is worried that Bob should have recited kalma. First of all - Junaid jamshed...what business does he have with the cricket team.
Also, Abu I dont feel insecure after looking at Inzi`s dari. I feel ashamed that people without any knowledge of religion who listen to ahadith and other people rather than actually reading Quran with meaning have more influence in Pakistan rather than intelligent people....
A statement about divine revelation does not suit you. Arent you the one always qouting ahadith rather than Quran....

Re: # 25
Another qadiyani in da house! Give it up man, you never answered my question on precious board. What makes you sure about Quran? Didnt Quran reach us thru the some human beings that Hadith did? Or Is there a vidoetaped recitation of quran by Prophet (PBUH) that i am not aware of. I have always maintained that not ALL hadith is true but NOT ALL OF THEM ARE FALSE EITHER. The logic that the sahaba lied about hadith however they didnt lie when it came to the surahs of Quran sounds just a lil too conveneant.

I guess abu_safwan was scared to reply to my post so he just addresses rf. In any case I also put this piece of news for both abu and PM in my previous post. I think they didn`t read it because still they asked the same question about proof. Isn`t an article of Dawn proof enough....

Re: # 23

Yes we were so scared after all you are Hercules and we should be scared because God knows in cyberspace you can kick azz like its noone`s bus. In real life however ``BHABI`` lets you know who da reall boss is. Thers gotta be another way to overcome your insecurities rather than claimin to be a mach0-man in cyber space. I think you are really reaching and its a lil sad.

Mushtaq has no business being part of the team. But my contention is that he is in the team as much as because of inzimam as much he was because of BOB. Waqar said it himself in a TV show that BOB was threatened by him and he needed someone who would put cones for him, his insinuation was that BOB wanted an errand boy which WAQAR understandably couldn’t be and mushtaq gladly stepped up. He was also serving as the translator, but he landed the job because he was good friends with Inzi, it has less to do with his beard and more to do with friendship with inzi and him being OK playing 2nd fiddle to BOB.

This insinuation is absurd that Hasan Raza is not with PCB because of his religious leanings. Younis Khan the V.C is on record denouncing public display of religiosity, he doesn’t do a sajda after a century and doesn’t invoke Allah swt name whenever a microphone is presented to him. If you really think that Hasan Reza has a place in Pakistan middle order that I am sorry but you know very little about cricket. Asim Kamal, Misbah-ul-Haq, Faisal Iqbal are way ahead of him, and whenever he has been given an opportunity at the top level Hasan Reza has never delivered, as a karachiite I would love to see him succeed but he just isn’t good enough.

The case can be made that inzi was not a good captain, although I don’t quite understand how a bad captain take a team who was down and out after 2003 debacle and make them 3rd ranked in the world in both forms of the game but if someone hints that he wasn’t a good batsmen or isn’t the 2nd best batsmen in Pakistan right now then they either don’t know diddly about cricket or there own insecurities haunt them, they see inzi’s beard and religiosity and all of a sudden they start feeling inadequate. I don’t think none of these guys really give a sheat as to how the outside world perceives their take on Islam, I think they are more worried about what the Lord above has to say. We all have the right to form opinions but if we base our opinions on prejudice and preconceived hearsay than its hard being taken seriously. Keep in mind that just because you read something on a website or from hassan reza, its not a divine revelation, this might come as a surprise but sometimes people do LIE, really!

rf786 sahib,
Thanks for pointing out a few things that had eluded me. I am aware of all the talk, even talk about insider talk, having to do with the tableeghi influence. I guess I`m quite skeptical becuase of the likes of jokers such as NFP on FP, and of knee-jerk reactions to public religiousness on this site.

I`m happy to listen to substantiated/substantiable accounts of wrongdoing on the part of the bearded guys. But what I`m not convinced by are statements such as ``Players like Hasan Reza (Shia) and many others who wud not have agreed with Tablighee virtues cud not survive with the culture imposed by Inzimam and his cohorts.``

This is too speculative. Are there any statements from the cricketers themselves? If Inzi and co are basing selections on religious pesuasion, as is being suggested by many, I`m curious to know how someone like an Azhar Mahmood could have made his way into the team.

re. Waqar Yunus` removal as bowling coach, I watched the interview with Fakhr-e-Alam on Geo Super, where Yunus sat alongside the chairman PCB (I think). There was clearly more to his removal than the intent to get the bearded Mushtaq in.

But thanks for your considered response all the same. It has been cause for pause.

btw, 35.9 really isn`t a bad ODI average by any means!

Re: # 20

Last 30 matches: Inzi averaged 35.9 compared to Ricky Pontings 51.9. Inzi won 15matches compared to Ricky Pontings 24. Inzi lost 12 compared to Pontings 5. Ponting took 18catches compared to Inzi`s 10. QED.

We cannot compare Hasan Reza (shia) with Azhar Mahmood (Sunni) for obvious reasons. Azhar Mahmood was selected for the WC squad after Shoaib and Asif were deemed unfit, otherwise he had no place in the side.

Hasan Reza has been one of the most prolific scorers in domestic cricket but has never got the same patience or opportunity to represent Pakistan, this is not speculation but facts.

Please refer to the latest news item in DAWN by Qamar Ahmed:

{On another front, though, a bunch of disgruntled players requesting anonymity, voiced their concerns regarding the religious drills they were made to go through on the short stint in the Caribbean and during the trip to London.

“At times some of us questioned ourselves whether we have come here to play cricket or on a religious mission. We were not really focused. Just before the parade during the opening ceremony, our assistant coach asked us to line-up for prayers while other teams participated in the official turnout,” narrated one of younger players in the side.

“Before taking the flight to London the assistant coach once again asked us to congregate at the Kingston Airport lounge for prayers and during the flight to London, despite objections from the cabin staff, a number of us were asked to offer prayer in the aircraft gallery as the rest of the passengers watched in bewilderment.”}

Just wait for a while, doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani hojaiga.....

Re: # 22

Bhai sirf aapkayy keh daynayy sayy baatt nahii banay gii, you have to arrive with concrete evidence. ``SOME ANNONYMOUS PLAYERS COMPLAINED...`` problem with annonymous is that it could be Meera or Bal Thakray pretending to be ``ANNONYMOUS PLAYERS``, anyone can be annonymous and say anything, this however doesnt prrove anythin beyond the shadow of doubt. Give it up on hasan reza already, He is not in the team because he sucks azz on the international level, hes a good domestic level cricketer but he hasnt delivered once and he has been tried numerous times under inzi`s captaincy, hes not in because hes not good enough not because hes shia. Inzi played under zaheer abbas being manager on the tour of england who is shia, we all know what a spendid job he did as a manger on that tour. Hassan Reza has been given ample opportunity under inzi`s captain, he just isnt good enough, so let it go. If theres anything to these conspiracy theories i am sure anyone named kaneria would never have been able to play, on the contrary he has played in every test that he was able to under inzi. If inzi was a true bigot then let me go on a limb and suggest that he should have started his witch-hunt from a hindu and then moved on to the shia. THEY HAD A BAD DAY AT OFFICE PEOPLE, GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! Tableeghi jamat has as much to do with their failure as much as they had to do with their success, which is NOTHING. I think india got kicked out because harbhajan reportedly sat in one tableeghi jamat lecture in a mosque, IT ALL MAKE SENSE NOW.

Re: # 24

Niether will denial and refutation change the fact that Pakistan cricket has suffered one of its most humiliating defeats in WC cricket. You wish to ignore Dawn news reporting that is your prerogative, whether others believe that story its their prerogative.

As for Hasan Reza, his domestic cricket performance has been excellent and like many other middle order batsmen has not got a fair chance to play for Pakistan. 7 test matches and 16Odi`s that is Hasan Reza`s career with the national team that includes his short stint that started at age 14yrs. This batsman has an average of 51runs in domestic cricket, now that deserves some respect and more than a few test matches.

Its good you mentioned Zaheer Abbas, the same gentleman has unequivocally blamed Inzimam for the Oval fiasco and holds Inzimam singularly responsible for the Wc debacle.

Tablighee Jamaat has been using Pakistan national cricket team as a publicity platform through its players. Another example was the tablighee sessions arranged by this group in London that was attended by Pak cricket team while on tour. This has been reported in the national press and confirmed by Woolmers discussion with Shahryar Khan.

No one has said that Inzimam is a bigot, you are making incorrect assumptions. Point that is being emphasized is that the team`s priority or objectives have been compromised because team management (Inzimam and MiniMe) have priorities other than cricket. I hope you can comprehend that simple reasoning and not demand concrete proof.

Re: # 29
Baray Bhai, jahan sayy uskii domestic ki average chappii thii waheen sayy Test or ODI ka record bhii batadaytay, hazrat ka 18 average hayy ODI`s mein test mein average hay 24. If I may quander in the ODI team or even test team who do you replace him with? Inzi? Are you kidding? Asim Kamal`s average in tests is 36, magar wohh aapkoo pasand nahii aayega kyonkay uskayy mathayy par namaz ka nishan hayy. How come no one was nagging when yosuf last year was on fire, how come you guys didnt equate that too tableeghis? All`s I am saying is that ist a stretch to link this one failure against Ireland with tableeghis. With test playing nations like west indies you win some n u loose some, ireland was a debacle most definitly but it has very little to do with inzi`s beard and a lot to do with the fact that there is something inherently wrong with our domestic cricket structure, which needs to be revamped. My point is that tableeghi jamat has as much to do with the failure as much it has to do with the uncanny success during inzi`s tensure, which is NOTHING. Aap logoon koo bahana milgaya hayy bass sunniyoon kii tangg khaychnayy kaa, there is only one team that will win the world cup, yes pakistans exit is sad but it wudnt have helped if instead of namaz they were getting their groove on. Orr maaf kijyayy gaa if I sound cautious about dawn finding a link between ALL failure and beards, they pander to a certain segment of the society so lets not get too excited here. If someone has been kept out of the team for not praying or keeping a beard or have been forced to pray or go to a tableegh convention than first it needs to be prooven with facts and then lets hang the perpetrators

ok here is stepping it up to the plate. According to Dawn...
On another front, though, a bunch of disgruntled players requesting anonymity, voiced their concerns regarding the religious drills they were made to go through on the short stint in the Caribbean and during the trip to London.

“At times some of us questioned ourselves whether we have come here to play cricket or on a religious mission. We were not really focused. Just before the parade during the opening ceremony, our assistant coach asked us to line-up for prayers while other teams participated in the official turnout,” narrated one of younger players in the side.

“Before taking the flight to London the assistant coach once again asked us to congregate at the Kingston Airport lounge for prayers and during the flight to London, despite objections from the cabin staff, a number of us were asked to offer prayer in the aircraft gallery as the rest of the passengers watched in bewilderment.”

Is this reason enough. If not then let me ask you this question. You say that Rana was the better choice. Why. He performed horribly in South Africa. Even the commentators were baffled at his inclusion. Then he was included again in thee world cup. Why not play yasir Arafat or Gul or Rao or Azhar instead of him like they did when they sat him in one of the games. Why keep giving him chances. You are talking about Imran nazir. Why Imran and not Salman Butt. Here is the link for batting and bowling by PCB. Look at the rankings and then you decide why not those players but Rana And Imran.

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Features/Domestic_FC_Batting_Rank.html
http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Features/Domestic_FC_Bowling_Rank.html

It is very easy to say that PCB did the right thing but looking at the facts you will see the difference. At least Salman Butt is not scared of the fast bowlers. Are you going to come back with the 160 Imran scored against Zimbawe. Let me tell you, he gave at least 3 chances (one in the beginning of his innings) and he had no pressure to perform anymore. Plus if he could not even score against Zimbawe then he should just quit Cricket. I am unable to also locate an article which states that Slaman Butt was not included because of his refusal to join tableeghi jammat. Also if you remember Shahid Afridi was in hot waters with Inzi untikl he finally came around and decided to join Tableegh to save his career.

You assertion that Inzi has a great average is correct. By the way I never said Inzimam was a bad player. I said he is no longer even a good player let alone a great one. He WAS a great player. WAS being the operative term. WAS meaning that he is no longer capable of performing. He stayed in Cricket a year too long. And the only reason he stayed was not his desire to win or play cricket but to teach the players to tableegh. Now that he has a few players following his example he is all of a sudden at peace with himself and is ready to quit. What has he given us in the past 2-3 series.

The last point about you claiming that Woolmer was happy with how that brought team cohesion and spirit is wrong. You should mention that before then Woolmer complained how team was not listening to him but only to Inzimam and he finally gave in. Also Junaid Jamshed is a joke. He is not an expert in pshychology or religion. He is just a member of these religious fanatic party who was there to spread his version of Islam. Your team is in such state because deserving players were not given any chance. Any player who was a shia, or who did not believe in tableegh was thrown out. Any coach for that matter had no say. A prime example of Mushi is in front of your eyes. How is he capable of teaching young fast bowlers anything about bowling which will be better that what Waqar taught them. Please give me a reason to believe that Mushi was a better coach then Waqar.
Now after all these facts let me see what you come back with. You must have something to back up your points after you challenged me.