Thank You Bob, Thanks Inzi!

Re: # 23

Yes we were so scared after all you are Hercules and we should be scared because God knows in cyberspace you can kick azz like its noone`s bus. In real life however ``BHABI`` lets you know who da reall boss is. Thers gotta be another way to overcome your insecurities rather than claimin to be a mach0-man in cyber space. I think you are really reaching and its a lil sad.

Mushtaq has no business being part of the team. But my contention is that he is in the team as much as because of inzimam as much he was because of BOB. Waqar said it himself in a TV show that BOB was threatened by him and he needed someone who would put cones for him, his insinuation was that BOB wanted an errand boy which WAQAR understandably couldn’t be and mushtaq gladly stepped up. He was also serving as the translator, but he landed the job because he was good friends with Inzi, it has less to do with his beard and more to do with friendship with inzi and him being OK playing 2nd fiddle to BOB.

This insinuation is absurd that Hasan Raza is not with PCB because of his religious leanings. Younis Khan the V.C is on record denouncing public display of religiosity, he doesn’t do a sajda after a century and doesn’t invoke Allah swt name whenever a microphone is presented to him. If you really think that Hasan Reza has a place in Pakistan middle order that I am sorry but you know very little about cricket. Asim Kamal, Misbah-ul-Haq, Faisal Iqbal are way ahead of him, and whenever he has been given an opportunity at the top level Hasan Reza has never delivered, as a karachiite I would love to see him succeed but he just isn’t good enough.

The case can be made that inzi was not a good captain, although I don’t quite understand how a bad captain take a team who was down and out after 2003 debacle and make them 3rd ranked in the world in both forms of the game but if someone hints that he wasn’t a good batsmen or isn’t the 2nd best batsmen in Pakistan right now then they either don’t know diddly about cricket or there own insecurities haunt them, they see inzi’s beard and religiosity and all of a sudden they start feeling inadequate. I don’t think none of these guys really give a sheat as to how the outside world perceives their take on Islam, I think they are more worried about what the Lord above has to say. We all have the right to form opinions but if we base our opinions on prejudice and preconceived hearsay than its hard being taken seriously. Keep in mind that just because you read something on a website or from hassan reza, its not a divine revelation, this might come as a surprise but sometimes people do LIE, really!

rf786 sahib,
Thanks for pointing out a few things that had eluded me. I am aware of all the talk, even talk about insider talk, having to do with the tableeghi influence. I guess I`m quite skeptical becuase of the likes of jokers such as NFP on FP, and of knee-jerk reactions to public religiousness on this site.

I`m happy to listen to substantiated/substantiable accounts of wrongdoing on the part of the bearded guys. But what I`m not convinced by are statements such as ``Players like Hasan Reza (Shia) and many others who wud not have agreed with Tablighee virtues cud not survive with the culture imposed by Inzimam and his cohorts.``

This is too speculative. Are there any statements from the cricketers themselves? If Inzi and co are basing selections on religious pesuasion, as is being suggested by many, I`m curious to know how someone like an Azhar Mahmood could have made his way into the team.

re. Waqar Yunus` removal as bowling coach, I watched the interview with Fakhr-e-Alam on Geo Super, where Yunus sat alongside the chairman PCB (I think). There was clearly more to his removal than the intent to get the bearded Mushtaq in.

But thanks for your considered response all the same. It has been cause for pause.

btw, 35.9 really isn`t a bad ODI average by any means!

Re: # 20

Last 30 matches: Inzi averaged 35.9 compared to Ricky Pontings 51.9. Inzi won 15matches compared to Ricky Pontings 24. Inzi lost 12 compared to Pontings 5. Ponting took 18catches compared to Inzi`s 10. QED.

We cannot compare Hasan Reza (shia) with Azhar Mahmood (Sunni) for obvious reasons. Azhar Mahmood was selected for the WC squad after Shoaib and Asif were deemed unfit, otherwise he had no place in the side.

Hasan Reza has been one of the most prolific scorers in domestic cricket but has never got the same patience or opportunity to represent Pakistan, this is not speculation but facts.

Please refer to the latest news item in DAWN by Qamar Ahmed:

{On another front, though, a bunch of disgruntled players requesting anonymity, voiced their concerns regarding the religious drills they were made to go through on the short stint in the Caribbean and during the trip to London.

“At times some of us questioned ourselves whether we have come here to play cricket or on a religious mission. We were not really focused. Just before the parade during the opening ceremony, our assistant coach asked us to line-up for prayers while other teams participated in the official turnout,” narrated one of younger players in the side.

“Before taking the flight to London the assistant coach once again asked us to congregate at the Kingston Airport lounge for prayers and during the flight to London, despite objections from the cabin staff, a number of us were asked to offer prayer in the aircraft gallery as the rest of the passengers watched in bewilderment.”}

Just wait for a while, doodh ka doodh aur paani ka paani hojaiga.....

Re: # 22

Bhai sirf aapkayy keh daynayy sayy baatt nahii banay gii, you have to arrive with concrete evidence. ``SOME ANNONYMOUS PLAYERS COMPLAINED...`` problem with annonymous is that it could be Meera or Bal Thakray pretending to be ``ANNONYMOUS PLAYERS``, anyone can be annonymous and say anything, this however doesnt prrove anythin beyond the shadow of doubt. Give it up on hasan reza already, He is not in the team because he sucks azz on the international level, hes a good domestic level cricketer but he hasnt delivered once and he has been tried numerous times under inzi`s captaincy, hes not in because hes not good enough not because hes shia. Inzi played under zaheer abbas being manager on the tour of england who is shia, we all know what a spendid job he did as a manger on that tour. Hassan Reza has been given ample opportunity under inzi`s captain, he just isnt good enough, so let it go. If theres anything to these conspiracy theories i am sure anyone named kaneria would never have been able to play, on the contrary he has played in every test that he was able to under inzi. If inzi was a true bigot then let me go on a limb and suggest that he should have started his witch-hunt from a hindu and then moved on to the shia. THEY HAD A BAD DAY AT OFFICE PEOPLE, GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! Tableeghi jamat has as much to do with their failure as much as they had to do with their success, which is NOTHING. I think india got kicked out because harbhajan reportedly sat in one tableeghi jamat lecture in a mosque, IT ALL MAKE SENSE NOW.

Re: # 24

Niether will denial and refutation change the fact that Pakistan cricket has suffered one of its most humiliating defeats in WC cricket. You wish to ignore Dawn news reporting that is your prerogative, whether others believe that story its their prerogative.

As for Hasan Reza, his domestic cricket performance has been excellent and like many other middle order batsmen has not got a fair chance to play for Pakistan. 7 test matches and 16Odi`s that is Hasan Reza`s career with the national team that includes his short stint that started at age 14yrs. This batsman has an average of 51runs in domestic cricket, now that deserves some respect and more than a few test matches.

Its good you mentioned Zaheer Abbas, the same gentleman has unequivocally blamed Inzimam for the Oval fiasco and holds Inzimam singularly responsible for the Wc debacle.

Tablighee Jamaat has been using Pakistan national cricket team as a publicity platform through its players. Another example was the tablighee sessions arranged by this group in London that was attended by Pak cricket team while on tour. This has been reported in the national press and confirmed by Woolmers discussion with Shahryar Khan.

No one has said that Inzimam is a bigot, you are making incorrect assumptions. Point that is being emphasized is that the team`s priority or objectives have been compromised because team management (Inzimam and MiniMe) have priorities other than cricket. I hope you can comprehend that simple reasoning and not demand concrete proof.

Re: # 29
Baray Bhai, jahan sayy uskii domestic ki average chappii thii waheen sayy Test or ODI ka record bhii batadaytay, hazrat ka 18 average hayy ODI`s mein test mein average hay 24. If I may quander in the ODI team or even test team who do you replace him with? Inzi? Are you kidding? Asim Kamal`s average in tests is 36, magar wohh aapkoo pasand nahii aayega kyonkay uskayy mathayy par namaz ka nishan hayy. How come no one was nagging when yosuf last year was on fire, how come you guys didnt equate that too tableeghis? All`s I am saying is that ist a stretch to link this one failure against Ireland with tableeghis. With test playing nations like west indies you win some n u loose some, ireland was a debacle most definitly but it has very little to do with inzi`s beard and a lot to do with the fact that there is something inherently wrong with our domestic cricket structure, which needs to be revamped. My point is that tableeghi jamat has as much to do with the failure as much it has to do with the uncanny success during inzi`s tensure, which is NOTHING. Aap logoon koo bahana milgaya hayy bass sunniyoon kii tangg khaychnayy kaa, there is only one team that will win the world cup, yes pakistans exit is sad but it wudnt have helped if instead of namaz they were getting their groove on. Orr maaf kijyayy gaa if I sound cautious about dawn finding a link between ALL failure and beards, they pander to a certain segment of the society so lets not get too excited here. If someone has been kept out of the team for not praying or keeping a beard or have been forced to pray or go to a tableegh convention than first it needs to be prooven with facts and then lets hang the perpetrators

ok here is stepping it up to the plate. According to Dawn...
On another front, though, a bunch of disgruntled players requesting anonymity, voiced their concerns regarding the religious drills they were made to go through on the short stint in the Caribbean and during the trip to London.

“At times some of us questioned ourselves whether we have come here to play cricket or on a religious mission. We were not really focused. Just before the parade during the opening ceremony, our assistant coach asked us to line-up for prayers while other teams participated in the official turnout,” narrated one of younger players in the side.

“Before taking the flight to London the assistant coach once again asked us to congregate at the Kingston Airport lounge for prayers and during the flight to London, despite objections from the cabin staff, a number of us were asked to offer prayer in the aircraft gallery as the rest of the passengers watched in bewilderment.”

Is this reason enough. If not then let me ask you this question. You say that Rana was the better choice. Why. He performed horribly in South Africa. Even the commentators were baffled at his inclusion. Then he was included again in thee world cup. Why not play yasir Arafat or Gul or Rao or Azhar instead of him like they did when they sat him in one of the games. Why keep giving him chances. You are talking about Imran nazir. Why Imran and not Salman Butt. Here is the link for batting and bowling by PCB. Look at the rankings and then you decide why not those players but Rana And Imran.

http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Features/Domestic_FC_Batting_Rank.html
http://www.pcboard.com.pk/Pakistan/Features/Domestic_FC_Bowling_Rank.html

It is very easy to say that PCB did the right thing but looking at the facts you will see the difference. At least Salman Butt is not scared of the fast bowlers. Are you going to come back with the 160 Imran scored against Zimbawe. Let me tell you, he gave at least 3 chances (one in the beginning of his innings) and he had no pressure to perform anymore. Plus if he could not even score against Zimbawe then he should just quit Cricket. I am unable to also locate an article which states that Slaman Butt was not included because of his refusal to join tableeghi jammat. Also if you remember Shahid Afridi was in hot waters with Inzi untikl he finally came around and decided to join Tableegh to save his career.

You assertion that Inzi has a great average is correct. By the way I never said Inzimam was a bad player. I said he is no longer even a good player let alone a great one. He WAS a great player. WAS being the operative term. WAS meaning that he is no longer capable of performing. He stayed in Cricket a year too long. And the only reason he stayed was not his desire to win or play cricket but to teach the players to tableegh. Now that he has a few players following his example he is all of a sudden at peace with himself and is ready to quit. What has he given us in the past 2-3 series.

The last point about you claiming that Woolmer was happy with how that brought team cohesion and spirit is wrong. You should mention that before then Woolmer complained how team was not listening to him but only to Inzimam and he finally gave in. Also Junaid Jamshed is a joke. He is not an expert in pshychology or religion. He is just a member of these religious fanatic party who was there to spread his version of Islam. Your team is in such state because deserving players were not given any chance. Any player who was a shia, or who did not believe in tableegh was thrown out. Any coach for that matter had no say. A prime example of Mushi is in front of your eyes. How is he capable of teaching young fast bowlers anything about bowling which will be better that what Waqar taught them. Please give me a reason to believe that Mushi was a better coach then Waqar.
Now after all these facts let me see what you come back with. You must have something to back up your points after you challenged me.

PM Sahib or Mr PM,
Please allow me to respond.

Inzimam`s batting stats for the past two years have been mediocre if not just average. Not a single century and lack of any material impact on team performance. Highest score of 81 vs England inm Pakistan followed by 79 vs India in the UAE (friendly). We all know and recognize what a class act Inzimam is, this clearly shows a person with other priorities.

Saying selection was based on religious association will be speculative because we are all making observations based on our interpertations of events. Having said that, there is ample proof from insiders who claim otherwise. Shaharyar Khan`s article talks about the religious transformation and how players revered Inzimam as their religious talisman. This environemnt wud have been positive had this religious phobia been restricted to private lives and not used to impose ideas on those who did not wish to particiapate or were uncomfortable with this public display of religion. PLayers like Hasan Reza (Shia) and many others who wud not have agreed with Tablighee virtues cud not survive with the culture imposed by Inzimam and his cohorts.

As for Junaid Jamshed, he is no way qualified to be the team spiritual or psychological leader. Its exactly the same mentality that was used to put Mushtaq (MiniMe) as the Asst Coach at the expense of losing Waqar Yunus and other professional coaches. JJ is a fame seeking charlatan who has made a career out of plagiarism and is using the same ideas in religion. More importantly, there are multiple faiths in Islam, how can A view advocated by JJ and his types be used for the entire team of fifteen?

You mentioned Bob Woolmers acknowledgement of improved team spirit but failed to mention the paragraph before that where he complained to management how players were not responding to his guidance. Yes, team spirit improved but there is no mention of improved training conditions. We all know now that the team continued to resist new ideas or professional training because their progression depended upon the spiritual leader`s happiness and not their cricketing capabilities.

I have much more to say, but this is probably getting a little tiring.

Thanks

hasan,
I don`t take issue with anyone suggesting Inzi was not suited to the captaincy. But as far as his batting goes, let`s see how he performed in the two years since, according to you, he was allowed his devotion to affect his game.
Inzi`s ODI batting stats for the past two seasons

>>>>>>>>>>Mat ..... I ... N.O ... Runs .... HS1 .... HS2 ... HS3 ..... Ave .... 100 ... 50 ... 0

career ......... 378 ... 350 ... 53 ... 11739 .. 137* ... 123 ... 122 .... 39.52 ... 10 ... 83 ... 20
last 2 seasons 35 ...... 31 .... 7 ...... 857 .... 81* ..... 79 .... 51 ...... 35.70 ... 0 .... 3 .... 1

I wonder if you would be able to provide some evidence to support your contentions that team selections were made based on religious association. Also, would you kindly suggest who, in your opinion, would have been better options than Rana Naveed and Imran nazir, based on performace/form.

Could you also please spell out the problem re. Junaid Jamshed`s travelling with the team, given that many professional outfits nowadays employ psychologists on a full- or part-time basis. (And I`m sure that you would not deny that, given the psychological make-up of most of the Paksitani team, any inspirational speaker would be qualified to do that job.) I`m sure Woolmer`s own words (as reported by Shehryar Khan-- not exactly the best friend of the tableeghis) about the religiousness being tolerable because it fostered a useful team spirit, are not words that you would dismiss lightly.

Hassan, I am as wary as the next person of the harmful effects of religiosity. `thing is, all i hear in this regard is speculation-- which, btw, often overlooks ahrd facts and stats. If someone is willing to provide hard evidence (or even `soft) of nepotism or coercison/arm-twisting by the religious-minded cricketers, I`d be happy to listen.

Will you step up to the plate now?

i wonder how ppl share such crap on chowk .........
man no need to beat about the bush ....the thing is we `ve lost the match and thats it ....
no matter how talented Inzi is or was ..... its all about performance and everyone knows wht he did so he must quit cricket and thats what he did ....so Thanks Inzi
no issuses that he was a man of crises ...he did alot for Pakistan but the thing is now he can`t(coz he is over-age) ....you can`t compare Inzi with Hogan(who enters in the Arena and crowd starts shouting ) because its not WWE ..its cricket dude ...
nywayzz about Inzi leadership sorry to say he was not a good captain ..... i think Kaptain Mirza could b more fruitful than him ......so face the relaity and lets stop sharing all those silly excuses ....
`ve fun
n keep chewing Pan ....

All I have to say regarding this article is -- thank you Bob no thanks Inzi.

No matter what you say dude ... Inzi is not a `LEADER`, he simply does not possess leadership skills. There is always a body language of a captain ... A captain has to be aggressive and someone who constantly motivates the team etc ... Even if the batting failed, Pakistan is a strong team to bounce back with the bowling attack ... Inzi simply lost the game before the start of the batting... The team spirit runs with the body language of the captain ... Inzi was a dead meat in the field... his face indicating to the batsman that yes have lost ...

Are you freaking kidding me that we should give a hero`s farewell to this idiot Inzi. You must be out of your mind to suggest that after this display in South Africa, India, and now the world cup we should sing praises for this guy who should have retired from cricket a year ago. Maybe then it would be appropriate. But he stayed in cricket for a year to convert others to his idea of Islam and for no other reason. he had no desire to win and he feels comfortable in retiring now because he has enough of his followers join the tableegh. Stop thinking that Pakkistanis are idiots who should stand up and clap for this nincompoop who should now leave everyone in peace and just vanish.

Ahmer I like your other articles but you and PM are completely wrong. First of all nobody is blaming Islam for Pakistan`s misfortunes. But the problem is them not doing their jobs because they are more interested in their praying than playing. Problem is not Pakistan having the worst day of their life against Ireland but the fact that they looked at peace after losing (they were more devastated after Inzi`s retirement than after the loss). The problem is giving players like Rana and Imran Nazir chances to play world cup instead of deserving players because those two belong to the tableeghi jamaat. The problem is Junaid Jamshed travelling and preaching the player when he knows nothing about competetive cricket. I urge PM and you to understand the difference. Because of people like you two others are always scared to say anything when it comes to religion. These players especially Inzi have hijacked our beloved game and made it into a mockery and you guys are still sitting on your high horse of religion telling everyone that it is OK for them to lose Ireland and it is NOT ok to blame their affinity to religion on this loss. It is the only thing to blame. They dont care anymore whether they lose or not as long as they have daris. That is what most people have a problem with.

I confess I hadn`t read the article before posting the first of my posts here. Having read it now, I think my first post was rather redundant. Apologies!

That said, the author writes: ``If your sicko Molvi Sahab molested you while you were young and you have acquired animosity for Islam because of that, then direct your anger towards that individual rather than the religion itself.``

It`s a little unfair to think that anyone opposing religious exhibitionism or with that they deem religiosity (not religiousness, mind you!) does so for personal reasons. And, Ahmer, you also do no justice to Maulvi Saab by perpetuating a (very) negative stereotype of his character.

But you are right on the money when you write: ``Besides how come no one ever discusses the length of Harbhajan’s beard, is it maybe because after 9/11 all kind of absurd prejudice is fair game ONLY when it comes to Islam & Muslims?``