Pakistans Permanent Revolution

@masadi
[The Quran is not about unreasoned dos and don`ts it is about REASON more so than anything else, comprendey??? Of course not because your professed ``belief`` in the Quran is just a cover for your real ``belief`` and that is your unconditional love for the white man and his system of oppression]

Traditionalism is of two kinds, deliberate traditionalism and unconscious traditionalism. Deliberate traditionalism is a set of rules, customs and traditions made by people for the benefit of the individual and the society with conscious effort and the application of our reasoning faculties. Unconscious traditionalism, on the other hand, is something which creeps into our minds unconsciously and sometimes we are not even aware of it, but it shapes our ideas and ways of thinking.

I consider religion to be a “reformed tradition”. In the 7th century Islam was a step forward from the primitive nomadic culture of Arabia. It united Arabia under one leadership and made it a force to reckon with. Because of this unity Arabs were able to conquer half the world. It gave women their rights. Though slavery was not abolished because it was impossible to do that at that time but the slave owners were ordered to take good care of their slaves and it was considered a virtuous act to liberate slaves. Certain rights were guaranteed to the minorities in an Islamic state. Islam even managed to prohibit gambling, prostitution and liquor which are always and everywhere regarded as immoral and a social nuisance. These were the examples of deliberate traditionalism. A set of laws, customs and moral values which were made for the good of an individual and the society.

But today we live in 21st century. 1500 years have elapsed since the establishment of the first Islamic state in Medina. The society, politics and economy of today’s nation state is much more complex than those simpler times. We cannot find the solutions to all our problems in the Sharia. Neither can we interpret and apply Islamic laws without going into their merits and demerits and using our reasoning faculties. Though Sharia are a set of deliberate traditions but even deliberate traditions are time bound. What holds good today may not hold good for all times and ages.

For example Islam liberated and emancipated women from the primitive tribal customs of Arabia and though it allowed polygamy but discouraged it. Today we cannot allow a male member of the society to have more than one wives because it will be unfair to more than half the population of the world. Similarly today we believe in secularism and the rights of the minorities. We cannot discriminate on the basis of caste, creed and religion. All citizens of a modern nation state must have equal rights and equal opportunities irrespective of their beliefs and religions. By applying our reasoning faculties and the golden rule “do unto others as you have them do unto you” it becomes clear that if you don’t want to get persecuted yourself or the people who hold views similar to your own in a society where they are in a minority then you must not force your views on others who hold opposite or dissimilar views in a society where you are in a majority. This is the essence of secularism. You can persuade people to adopt your views but you can not force people for this purpose.

Finally, I don’t have “an unconditional love for white man and his system of oppression”. The West is facing its own dilemma in the form of disintegration of the institution of family and social and moral evils like drugs, alcoholism, prostitution and pornography. Here in the East we respect our elders and sons continue to live with their parents even after getting married. They donot send their parents to Old Houses when they grow old instead they take care of them. I am not advocating that prostitution and alcohol should be legalized. Not because my faith dictates so. But because I know by using my reasoning faculties that prostitution, pornography, drugs and alcohol are bad for an individual and the society.

Society is in a state of evolution. We have not reached a state of perfection yet and we may never reach that stage. But this doesnot means that we should take a retrogressive stance. We should adopt what is best in time tested traditionalism and also what is good in modernism by applying our reasoning faculties.

Salim bro, right next door, Valentine Day shops are disrupted, thousands of bargirls (not prostitutes) are arbitrarily thrown out of work, and sex education is put on hold. Even in the states members of the public proactively oppose suspected dens of prostitution. And neither of these societies even have any clear moral goals.

#166 by kaalchakra on March 31, 2007 9:03am PT
{``ahmedmadani
The students took the steps at the request of neighbors. One can assume that the neighbors approached the police before reaching out to the students.``}

Kaal Bhai,
Good point. Also, please consider the fact that in the US, the world`s second largest democracy, right-wing vigilantes have disrupted, bombed, and killed activities and health professional in abortion clinics. And, these are legal ones. I don`t think that brothels are legal in Islamabad - or for that matter in Lahore.

I don`t support the right-wing fundo whackos, but the activism demonstrated by the female students may have some justification. I wish the police had done their job in the first place. If brick throwing lawyers can be defended, I guess sugarcane swinging burqacrats have their place in Paki society too. :)

#173 by mohar11 on March 31, 2007 9:59am PT


When educated folks like madani and zeemax and others have started supporting


When did they stop supporting the taliban...post 9/11, they were afraid more of lynndie than allah..which is why their love for islamofascism went in the closet for the a brief period...and for brit-pakis like welfare queen, not even that...

I wonder what the new taliban will do to manto`s ahmedi ass...i`m sure his dad`s maybach(cough cough) will be the first to go...

Mushy, bombastic as he is, cannot hold off the onslaught from islamic folks... it`s only a matter of time...

When educated folks like madani and zeemax and others have started supporting re-vised taliban movement, complete with female breeders to ensure constant supply of foot soldiers, the game is already lost...

Get out of pakiland, if you can, YLH... don`t get too excited about ``revolutions``... the only revolution possible in pakiland is the islamic kind... the ball is already rolling in that direction...

The West`s peon (Tahmed) states <<< my point is very simple: religion is about belief. a belief by definition is something that cannot be proved >>>

My “dear” (actually much hated) ignorant chowk acquaintance. You define religion based on your own preference, most certainly the ``Western/secular`` preference, then you define belief based on the same preference and then you make a nonsensical conclusion based on stereotype. Now, what is missing from all this BS analysis of pseudo-enlightenment is the fact that when you conclude that there are competing ways, other than science, of acquiring true knowledge, you are actually diminishing its role as the ONLY valid source of acquiring truth. Otherwise my “dear” ignorant acquaintance, how is your belief in Allah truer than someone else`s belief in the ``rat god``- go ahead explain it to me and then when you try to use symbols to which you have given meaning, i.e. language and connect them logically to explain it to me, let me stop you right there and tell you that you are using part of the scientific methodology. The Quran is not about unreasoned dos and don`ts it is about REASON more so than anything else, comprendey??? Of course not because your professed ``belief`` in the Quran is just a cover for your real ``belief`` and that is your unconditional love for the white man and his system of oppression

Re: # 170

The ``white mans`` system of oppression? Who are you kidding? Do you think Arab imperialism was so enlightened and progessive? How about the wonderful Ottoman empire where the consorts of the rulers were abducted women, ever heard of the Janisseries? Sick concept of orphaned christian boys militarized and taught to hate and become a merciless fighting machine (aka Taliban). Or how about those Arabs, only got around to making slavery illegal in 1976. Or the wonderful caste/apartheid system...is that the white man`s doing? Or how about the rape of Nanking by the Japanese?

Please wake up take you head out of the sands of Arabia and see the world for what is is.
Today a muslims is most likely oppressed/killed/persecuted by another MUSLIM than by a white man, Indian or jew. Until this fact is accpeted, digested and some reform in the backward, closeminded, intolerant Islamic world occurs the Muslim community has nowhere to go but down. I see very few people on this site who understand the urgency of this problem , they just utter empty phrases for the Ummah etc... Urstruly, Tahmed, Zeemax being the worst malefactors.

#166 by kaalchakra,

Pls see #148 for the press report in this regard.

#164 by bulleya,

Your question pertains to two issues:

1) Whether it is Islamic and ;

2) Whether anyone has the right to do so.

Though there`s a misstatement on your part that ``declare anyone guilty of prositution``. They didn`t do that. It was widely known and many complaints had been lodged. But that`s not the issue.

Re (1) Yes. It is Islamic. There`s a protection of Chaddar and Chardiwari in Islam and one can do anything within the confines of their own four walls as long as it does not disturb others in the community. There`s the episode to cite in this regard of the governor of Yemen during Umar`s time when this principle as well as the four witnesses rule was enforced.

Re (2) Yes. Anyone has a right to rebel if their rights are being plundered and the only recourse is to fight. Please take account of my previous posts where I`ve repeatedly said the attack on aunty shamim`s prostitution den is just a symbol to declare war against the illegitimate military rule and to challenge the government writ.

Again, as I`ve said before, the girls` argument is simple. If musharraf can trample upon all laws to gain and stay in power, then so can they. There`s actually no law in any country once the constitution is abrogated, which is practically the case in Pakistan after the CJ incident.

There is no moral issue in this. The morality in-fact stands suspended for all.

ylh
it`s probably true that there is a procedural problem in making justice chaudhary (name of jeetendra film from `80s) non-functional.
but what if the sjc decides that the two charges against him stick?
i think an author who sets out the position that:
- pakistan`s judiciary has always compromised with the army
- justice chaudhary is brave
- justice bhagwandas has impeccable integrity
will be disappointed by the sjc and bhagwandas should they take a legalistic view and uphold the reference.

secondly, ``The only election religious parties won any seats in was held under the enlightened moderate Pervez Musharraf himself`` is untrue. fazlur rehman`s daddy mufti mahmud was primary opponent of zab.
i think jamiat ul ulema i islam is now permanent entity in pakistan politics (because of pushtun nationalism, however, not islamism, though i`m not sure how the two separate where the jui holds power).
the modernist islamists under maudoodi/qazi sahib never won much; but ``never won any`` is clearly untrue.

thirdly, ``secular and mainstream parties like PPP and PML`` is true only if 15th amendment (amr bin ma`aroof nahi anil munkar) of sharif and 2nd amendment to 1973 constitution (qadianis declared non-muslim) tabled by zab are secular acts. and i think the ppp can never rescind from that act of bigotry. i asked sherry rehman what she thought of that and she asked me to switch my recorder off.
there are no secular parties in pakistan with the (possible) exception of the bhaiyya-biharis of the mqm.

thirdly, ``I am convinced that in his heart of hearts, he is a true patriot and a good man`` is a banal observation.

fourthly, ``he must restore chief justice`` is not possible (unless you`re saying that sjc under good and honourable hindu is pliant -- is it?). matter, as we say in india ALL the time, is sub-judice.

fifthly, ``honourably leave the office of president``? what`re you smoking, man? gimme some of that good stuff!
people in power are convinced they`re doing the right thing for awam, esp faujis. ayub had to be pushed aside by yahya; yahya thought he would remain president after december 1971 (and zab was terrified of him ever after the war); zia had no plan of leaving; what makes musharraf different? the fact that he`s a ``true patriot`` who has a ``heart of hearts`` (yuck) no doubt.

baqi sub fit?
where are temporal and the other pehelwans?
aakar

ahmedmadani

The students took the steps at the request of neighbors. One can assume that the neighbors approached the police before reaching out to the students.

zeemax #: can you explain what is islamic about barging into someone`s and dragging two women out, locking them up and threatening them.......on top of that, declaring them guilty on one`s own........

do you think a large mob of people (men or women) should have the authority to:

- declare anyone guilty of prositution
- barge into someone`s house
- kidnap the women of the house

would either you or urstruly or anyone be offended if a mob of individuals carried out something similar in your house........i certainly would be and would not want anyone to have the right to do so.......

Re: # 164 bulleya

I firmly believe that what ails pakistan cannot be cured with democracy or through education and ``Talqeen``. The time has passed for that. The corrupt ruling elite had time for a magna carta but now that time is lost and they know that too. Second time in the history of Pakistan the oppressive corrupt class has crossed the limit and now they have no regard for a life of Pakistani citizen. Even schoolchildren are not spared and are masacared through laser guided missiles. First time the got away with the genocide of East Pakistanis and lost half the country with impunity and this time they shouldn`t. Enough is enough. Lets accept the fact that Pakistan is a failed state and by supporting oppressive corrupt class we are only prolonging our own missery. State apparatus has failed; institutions have failed; and society is on the verge of collapse. I personally do not like anarchy such that of students of Jamia Hafsa, but what they did was not the disease but a symptom of larger malfeasance in society. But I would rather support the doers and rebels rather than those who deliver surmons to protect status quo.

Re: # 164
That activity was against law. The law enforcers were helpless for many reasons. Girl student organization as last resort took law in had to stopped illeagal activities and immoral behaviour of people and nation should thank them.

Re: # 165 mad-ani
[...nation should thank them...]

No wonder you pakis are so f***ed up :)

... not pointing to tahmed but the subject was started by sattar2.