Pakistans Permanent Revolution

People like those of #186/189/190 know very well that they have lost, and have no other recourse but to abuse and trivialize Islam in a `khasiani billi` fashion. People like these are lucky to be abroad (if at all they are) because the next change in Pakistan is going to be no other than Islamic (and not the moderate enlightened kind), and Munafiqs will be rendered stateless ...

They should work harder at their jobs as peons of the west (copyright masadi) so that they can remain there as far as possible.

Re: # 193

Zeemax Sahib:

``... the next change in Pakistan is going to be no other than Islamic (and not the moderate enlightened kind), and Munafiqs will be rendered stateless ... ``

What is your basis to say this, and why it is not delusional?

Time is against institutionalized relgions, not just Islam. Please study this from this angle more. I know you can.

#194 by anil,

What is your basis to say this, and why it is not delusional? Time is against institutionalized relgions, not just Islam. Please study this from this angle more. I know you can.

Anil,

I think kaalchakra has put it more clearly in a gem of a post on UP than I ever could. It is a phenomenon which goes deep into the Muslim psyche, and history provides plenty of proof as to how Islamic empires develop, then fall, and then rise again and again, even with different religious interpretations of the same Quran and Sunnah. This time around, the clear course is Back to the Basics regardless of where time goes.

There is a reason for it. Muslims have never been in a crisis like this since the events of mid 7th century, when only the basic codes provided the single-mindedness to overcome all odds and to remove enemies both from their midst as well as distant borders in a span of barely a decade. Once this was done, milder forms of Islam emerged beginning from Usman`s caliphate and extending into the Umayyads and later the Abbasids and the Ottomans (named after Usman) who promoted soft skills and soft sciences for an entire millenium instead of the art of confrontation. It was because they were not under threat of complete elimination and dominance forever. Muslims today are under such a threat.

Thus, it is back to the basics, which was quite simply `Jihad` and a strict moral code. You can see this recourse clearly everywhere in militant Islam beginning with Usama Bin Laden, to Taliban, to the Iraqi resistance, to Hazballah, to Ahmedinijad, to the Jamia Hafsa. This tide will not stop till it has achieved its goals. And then, Islam will again become soft till it is threatened again and so on ... This is how it works.

I quote kaalchakra:

``IMHO, we are falling in the same error that non-Muslim liberals make. In their cultural indifference and studied ignorance, they seem to think of Islam as at best woolly fiction of no real consequence, one that can`t impact any lives since it is open to and tolerant of free-ranging interpretions allowing everyone (Mulims and nonMusli) do as they want. (This is what they believe of all religions).

I think that is very disrespectful to this potent force which significantly alters any human landscape it takes over.

Here is what I suspect happens. True, like all else, Islam can be interpreted in a number of ways. That allows (limited) variation from time to time and place to place. But ONCE a particular intepretation has been broadly reached AT A GIVEN TIME AND PLACE, then that prevalent interpretation becomes an exceedingly powerful force against any EXTERNAL object/entity/rival idea everytime the two differ.``

Emphasis is mine.

Regards.

okhla writes <<< Otherwise the US college would not have rejected all your pleadings and kicked you out in favour of someone who was actually literate >>>

Utterly and completely ignorant fool. There is nothing in your arsenal of arguments except ad hominem, and even then, you have to invent nonsense against me. No US university rejected me, and no pleading was involved in my relationship with US institutions. I came to Pakistan of my own volition and was ``laid off`` by a feudal who has set up a priviate MBA school with a non original name to train peons for the West.

I decided to give up staying in the US so that the hold of peons like yourself on the psyche of the Pakistan is challenged and defeated, one person at a time......Stay away from people who can look through your dimwit mentality, or you end up making a damn fool of yourself...

Re: # 195

Zeemax sahib:

Islam, as a non-muslim, I see has one great ability to create ``mini-institutions``, unfortunately all recently created institutions are by militant Islam, may be except for Edhi Foundation. Ahmednijad is a product of democracy (an institution) in Iran. Sooner or later the west will have to accept it. Islamic intellectuals should take a lead and form moderate institutions, instead wait for the pendulum to swing. New means to communicate are available to all in this global village we now live, and just for the pictures of hate of beheaings etc. These two, communication and ease to create mini-institutions, can be pwoerful to bring sanity to the currently madness.

That Mushy is such a fool!

Mian Mushy, if you are reading this – kaan khol kar sun lo!

Don’t make a further fool of yourself! Even you ought to know that it is impossible to fight people who use Gandhiji’s techniques!

Stop trying to pull a Zia on us – you ain’t no Zia – thankfully, there won’t be another!

Give the press back its freedom and trust the judgement of your compatriots,

And fire the coterie members who got you into the present mess!

Pronto!

Show some balls, for a change!!

Re: # 196

masadi,

......... stop repeating the same old stuff before you actually start believing your own nonsense ! .......... look mian, we on chowk might not be intellectual giants, but we can see through your lululand bs ........ it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that you have read one book (mills) and probably have a `degree` from some mail order `university` and have `taught` welfare mamas and criminals on parole at some inner city community college - not really stellar academic credentials .......... we are glad that you have finally got tenure at jamia hafsa, but stop bothering us ........please

Folks:

This article is worth reading, `Primacy of law in India` by Tasneem Noorani in today`s Dawn Op/Ed section. I highly recommend it.

I believe that the idealogical war between different methods of governance between India and Pakistan is not unlike the US-Soviet confrontation during the Cold War. While the principal difference between capitalism and communism was an economic one, India and Pakistan are bedeviled by a religious vs. secular divide. Economic realities hit you faster (and the Soviets collapsed in 70 years) than blunders caused by religious dogmas. It may take much longer for Pakistan`s polity to unravel (although the first limb was shed in `71). What we are witnessing however is a slow motion play of a nation state in the process of collapse. I believe that this article by a former Pakistani interior secretary affirms it. If and when India forges ahead economically to a point whereby the average Indian Muslim is better off than the average Pakistani, the whole driving idea of Pakistan is finished. Finito. Gone. Vaporized.
Indeed, this may have already happened in India`s western and southern states. YLH, are you reading?

Re: # 200

pepe le pew,

....... hate to interrupt your wet dream, but we are making progress too .......... while you guys are struggling with the definition of sex we have managed to solve its many intracies :

Rape victim not bound to produce 4 witnesses: CII

* Council says adultery accused cannot be punished without 4 witnesses
* Stresses rape and consensual sex are separate crimes

By Irfan Ghauri

ISLAMABAD: The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) on Saturday unanimously decided that a victim of rape (zina-bil-jabr) should not be required to produce four witnesses to file a complaint.

The CII agreed that in rape cases, the affected woman would be a complainant, not a defendant. “In this case, the woman will be a complainant and the state will be bound to investigate, arrest the rapist and punish him if the crime is proved,” a press release of the CII said.

The council also stressed that rape (zina-bil-jabr) and consensual sex with someone other than a spouse (zina-bil-raza) are separate crimes. It observed that a person accused of adultery should be acquitted if the complainant fails to produce four witnesses to prove their point in court. Once acquitted, the accused could not be punished under any other law unless he/she refused to give a statement under oath or confessed to the crime, the council said.

Re: # 201 Did the council say anything about what the witnesses should be wearing or whether to lower your gaze or not when witnessing the rape?

#195 zeemax {``Once this was done, milder forms of Islam emerged beginning from Usman`s caliphate and extending into the Umayyads and later the Abbasids and the Ottomans (named after Usman) who promoted soft skills and soft sciences for an entire millenium instead of the art of confrontation. ``}

Zee Bhai,
Just one important correction. The Ottoman Turks, Osmanli, are named after Ghazi Osman Pasha and NOT the Caliph Usman. Ghazi Osman Pasha was a 13th century jihadi fighting the last of the Crusading spirit of the Byzantines. Please carry on with the rest of your discussion - I apologize for this interruption, but I do care about historical accuracy. :)

Re: # 202

chalta,

good point ........ in islamic tradition you are supposed to lower your gaze while witnessing a rape and under no circumstances are you allowed to interfere and prevent rape ........ i think there is a hadith that says that ``those who prevent rape are worse than mirzaees``

#184 Urstruly {``Establish Nizam-e-Mustafa by Friday, March 9, or Else
- Moulana Abdul Aziz of Lal Masjid Islamabad ``}

Janab Mohtaram Maulana Urstruly Sahib,

Please indicate the year by which this ``Nizam-e-Mustafa`` is going to be established. I have heard about the last such attempt by Zina Owl Hag and just want to ensure that my loved ones have enough time to plan for such a catastrophe. Thanks.

Re: # 204 lowering the gaze would make being a eyewitness a bit of a paradox, no? But who are we to juidge god`s command or logic

Utterly & completely respected Masadi Sahib,

Most kindly refer to your idiotic post #196.

So you are back on the street...
It appears that after your Gora masters kicked you out, the Brown Pakistani Sahib decided to do the same.Tut, tut,tut.... Unfortunately, in absence of Social Security, you would now have to look for another place where you can ``train peons for the west``.Where all are you applying? Maybe I can put in a word for you? Do let me know if I can help...

I would recommend ``Ignited Minds`` by APJ Abdul Kalam, an able scientist and a good human being. Read it carefully and without prejudice. Masadi, stop looking backwards to the medieval times for inspiration. Our country is going through turbulent times. We need forward looking progressive people who can help us in this critical phase and also be part of the modernisation process that is sure to follow. Having stayed in US, you can easily become a major asset. The sooneryou realise this, the better it would be.....

Utterly & completely respected Masadi Sahib,

Most kindly refer to your idiotic post #196.

So you are back on the street...
It appears that after your Gora masters kicked you out, the Brown Pakistani Sahib decided to do the same.Tut, tut,tut.... Unfortunately, in absence of Social Security, you would now have to look for another place where you can ``train peons for the west``.Where all are you applying? Maybe I can put in a word for you? Do let me know if I can help...

I would recommend ``Ignited Minds`` by APJ Abdul Kalam, an able scientist and a good human being. Read it carefully and without prejudice. Masadi, stop looking backwards to the medieval times for inspiration. Our country is going through turbulent times. We need forward looking progressive people who can help us in this critical phase and also be part of the modernisation process that is sure to follow. Having stayed in US, you can easily become a major asset. The sooneryou realise this, the better it would be.....