Pakistans Permanent Revolution
Yasser Latif Hamdani March 28, 2007
#49 Posted by malik99 on March 29, 2007 1:57:21 pm
``Free elections would mean that secular and mainstream parties like Pakistan People`s Party and Pakistan Muslim League as well as smaller ethnic parties like Awami National Party and PukhtunKhwa Milli Party will be the clear winners whereas the religious alliance of MMA willl be the clear losers. ``
No. Free elections would mean that any party who people choose to vote for will win, and that people sitting in mansions as well as in jhuggis will accept the result, without worrying about how it ``looks`` in the West. In the absence of this, we will continue to have more of the same.
Its a slave mentality to call an election ``free`` when it brings your favorite party(s) to power and when it is acceptable in the West.
No. Free elections would mean that any party who people choose to vote for will win, and that people sitting in mansions as well as in jhuggis will accept the result, without worrying about how it ``looks`` in the West. In the absence of this, we will continue to have more of the same.
Its a slave mentality to call an election ``free`` when it brings your favorite party(s) to power and when it is acceptable in the West.
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#50 Posted by malik99 on March 29, 2007 2:06:42 pm
shame on author for feigning objectivity while at the same time equating ``free`` elections with the election of certain parties and acceptance in west.
#51 Posted by Urstruly on March 29, 2007 2:14:35 pm
Re: # 49
It is a very good point. I think, the corrupt ruling elite of Pakistan will take into account the predicament of democratically elected governments and representatives of Hamas, Hizbullah, and Iran and will try to please their masters as usually. This article is a ground work for that.
It is a very good point. I think, the corrupt ruling elite of Pakistan will take into account the predicament of democratically elected governments and representatives of Hamas, Hizbullah, and Iran and will try to please their masters as usually. This article is a ground work for that.
#53 Posted by bulleya on March 29, 2007 2:19:42 pm
I think people need to decide whether they want to push democracy in pakistan, or do they want to push secularism/religion. It is strange to read comments, which imply that Pakistan should have democracy, however, the circumstances should be such that only a secular govt. can come into power. Or a religious govt. can come into power. It`s kind of like sayng that USA should only have elections, when Republicans can come into power.
I think this is a sign of an elitist mindset. I was talking with a few Pakistani politicians. They told me that when elections are held, they don`t even bother about the English speaking Defence society class. They said, ``You guys`` don`t even vote, or only vote in small numbers.
All the political commentary here, on Chowk, is actually quite out of touch with the real Pakistan. We live at a distance from Pakistan. Maybe every poor guy in Pakistan wants a religious govt. Maybe they are tired of feudals and tribal leaders and military running them. Maybe they think that the religious parties, despite their narrow religious views, are their best bet for coming out of poverty. Maybe they abhor secular feudals and generals.
If the above is the case, then under which principle of democracy can anyone oppose the elections of religious parties? They obviously cannot. Hence to say that Musharraf should ease out in such a way that a secular group can democratically take over, breaks the whole concept of democracy, before it starts.
If one is going to accept democracy, then the discussion should stop at, ``Elections should be held.`` Everyone should accept what happens afterwards. However, if one is hell-bent about keeping maulvis out of power, even if they get elected and that is one`s only aim, then my suggestion would be to stick with Musharraf. Let him then beat up the CJ and anyone else he wants. I doubt any poltiical party would be able to confront maulvis with as much power as he can............
I think this is a sign of an elitist mindset. I was talking with a few Pakistani politicians. They told me that when elections are held, they don`t even bother about the English speaking Defence society class. They said, ``You guys`` don`t even vote, or only vote in small numbers.
All the political commentary here, on Chowk, is actually quite out of touch with the real Pakistan. We live at a distance from Pakistan. Maybe every poor guy in Pakistan wants a religious govt. Maybe they are tired of feudals and tribal leaders and military running them. Maybe they think that the religious parties, despite their narrow religious views, are their best bet for coming out of poverty. Maybe they abhor secular feudals and generals.
If the above is the case, then under which principle of democracy can anyone oppose the elections of religious parties? They obviously cannot. Hence to say that Musharraf should ease out in such a way that a secular group can democratically take over, breaks the whole concept of democracy, before it starts.
If one is going to accept democracy, then the discussion should stop at, ``Elections should be held.`` Everyone should accept what happens afterwards. However, if one is hell-bent about keeping maulvis out of power, even if they get elected and that is one`s only aim, then my suggestion would be to stick with Musharraf. Let him then beat up the CJ and anyone else he wants. I doubt any poltiical party would be able to confront maulvis with as much power as he can............
#54 Posted by Urstruly on March 29, 2007 2:20:05 pm
Pakistani female students protesting for their right for an education
#55 Posted by HP on March 29, 2007 2:35:37 pm
Tahmed,
“stood up for the basic rights of Pakistanis, including of course the right of habeas corpus (by calling intelligence to court on ``disappearances``) and including the right to a proper voting process (rather than sham elections).”
Pakistan has a history of people disappearing. Sindhis in the 70s and the 80s. Mohajirs in the 80s and 90s from Karachi. Most recently many Balochi disappeared….Did any CJ took suo moto action about that? During the Baloch crisis last year, this asshole was the CJ and he is on Balochistan quota, did he take any suo moto action? Are sindhi, Balochi lives any less than the terrorist and jihadis lives that he has taken the government to task on that? Where was this mofo’s sense of Justice when the poor Balochis were losing lives?
I did not mean to lash out at you but the reality is that CJ’s actions are politically motivated perhaps for some personal gains or to benefit his friends in the Islamist parties both in the army and politics.
Read my post #16 and try to match the dates with what was going on in the background and what he was doing to bring the pressure on the government.
I am not supporting Musharaf and I do think he handled the situation badly. You can read my posts on Feroz’s board. Pakistan needs to get to the elections and this game and this distraction would lead to is what the Islamist want badly that is to derail elections and bring someone else for Musharaf from the army.
There are no innocent upholders of Justice in Pakistan. Everyone has an axe to grind. We need to see the games that are being played instead of following like sheeps, we need to see and understand the issues and not be blinded by the rhetoric.
About Elections…what was this A-hole’s role in 2002 elections? Now all of a sudden, he is championing the free elections. He is not looking for free elections; he is creating grounds for no elections.
#56 Posted by stuka on March 29, 2007 3:37:17 pm
HP / Ursturly:
Very lucid posts from you but from opposite angles. It is said about India ..``You can make any observation about India and rest assured that the exact opposite is eually true``. I think the same statement can also be extended to Pakistan in terms of its own diversity.
BTW, what does the picture in #52 signify?
Very lucid posts from you but from opposite angles. It is said about India ..``You can make any observation about India and rest assured that the exact opposite is eually true``. I think the same statement can also be extended to Pakistan in terms of its own diversity.
BTW, what does the picture in #52 signify?
#57 Posted by hamidm2 on March 29, 2007 3:46:37 pm
Re: # 56
stuka.
``BTW, what does the picture in #52 signify? ``
........ isn`t it self evident ?........those dandas are phallic symbols and these women, if you can call them that, are protesting against the small sizes of their men`s penises (a disease that is common on both sides of the border even though most pakis like to think otherwise)
stuka.
``BTW, what does the picture in #52 signify? ``
........ isn`t it self evident ?........those dandas are phallic symbols and these women, if you can call them that, are protesting against the small sizes of their men`s penises (a disease that is common on both sides of the border even though most pakis like to think otherwise)
#58 Posted by hamidm2 on March 29, 2007 3:50:48 pm
Re: # 57
...... actually these pictures are islamic pornography - they represent urstruly`s wet dreams .........
...... actually these pictures are islamic pornography - they represent urstruly`s wet dreams .........
#59 Posted by stuka on March 29, 2007 4:05:28 pm
HamidM: U are describing #54 which is self evident. My question was about #52, which is a guy in a tshirt, surrounded and being pushed / beaten by some Islami types. Are they doing so because he is wearing western clothes?
#60 Posted by stuka on March 29, 2007 4:16:19 pm
Waisey, I have been fond of reading the columns of Cowasjee the Minority and Ayaz Amir the Chakwal Punjabi for quite some time; and to me it does seem that the latter is far more a democrat than the former.
#62 Posted by tahmed32 on March 29, 2007 5:32:14 pm
HP: you write: ``There are no innocent upholders of Justice in Pakistan. Everyone has an axe to grind. ``
I think you are being unduly cynical - what about the high court judges who resigned in protest? what about the hundreds of lawyers who took to the streets? the journalists? The one`s who shed blood? and the fact is that the issue of disappearances was never raised in Pakistan in the past, and it is only in recent months that you see this question coming out in newspapers.
If you must get mad - why not get mad at the deserving cases? the mullahs and their burqa clad goats, e.g.? :-)
I think you are being unduly cynical - what about the high court judges who resigned in protest? what about the hundreds of lawyers who took to the streets? the journalists? The one`s who shed blood? and the fact is that the issue of disappearances was never raised in Pakistan in the past, and it is only in recent months that you see this question coming out in newspapers.
If you must get mad - why not get mad at the deserving cases? the mullahs and their burqa clad goats, e.g.? :-)
#63 Posted by hamidm2 on March 29, 2007 5:55:54 pm
Re: # 62
tahmed mian,
........ the reason these mullahs and their goats are running amok in islamabad is because musharraf has created a political vacum which is being filled by the evil suicidal forces of al-sauron ........ today a suicide bomber killed a soldier in kharian, tomorrow they will be blowing up diners at pizza hut in the blue area - it is just a matter of time ......... i am being advised by friends and family to rethink my summer vacation plans ....... according to my sister who is a brilliant home economist and political pundit :`` aaj kal taliban ki haram ki aulad dhandhanati pher rahee hain, aur musharraf becharay yateem vakilon kay pechay para hoa hai - i am stocking up on indian videos and coca cola `` ........ i find that alarming
tahmed mian,
........ the reason these mullahs and their goats are running amok in islamabad is because musharraf has created a political vacum which is being filled by the evil suicidal forces of al-sauron ........ today a suicide bomber killed a soldier in kharian, tomorrow they will be blowing up diners at pizza hut in the blue area - it is just a matter of time ......... i am being advised by friends and family to rethink my summer vacation plans ....... according to my sister who is a brilliant home economist and political pundit :`` aaj kal taliban ki haram ki aulad dhandhanati pher rahee hain, aur musharraf becharay yateem vakilon kay pechay para hoa hai - i am stocking up on indian videos and coca cola `` ........ i find that alarming
#64 Posted by bulleya on March 29, 2007 5:57:14 pm
stuka #: ..To answer your question: The text below the picture states, in Urdu, ``Students of Lal Masjid are taking a member of the Police Force, as a hostage.``
I am not quite sure how it is assumed that the poor guy is a member of the police force. The second one states, ``Female students of Jami-a-Hafsa have gathered in the Lal Masjid Chowk to demand their rights.`` These female students recently broke into someone house and kidnapped a lady, her daughter-in-law and a small child. The lady has claimed that they tied her up with rope and dragged her. The female students have claimed that the lady ran a brothel, which is why they raided the house. Thereby declaring the lady guilty.
Much like Musharraf declared the CJ guilty before a trial, and locked him up.
However, my guess is that if all these ladies (and men) were given an option to migrate to the USA and settle down there, they would utilize the option. I know of a few individual(s), who are their supporter(s) who have utlized this option, and are comfortably settled in the USA.
I am not quite sure how it is assumed that the poor guy is a member of the police force. The second one states, ``Female students of Jami-a-Hafsa have gathered in the Lal Masjid Chowk to demand their rights.`` These female students recently broke into someone house and kidnapped a lady, her daughter-in-law and a small child. The lady has claimed that they tied her up with rope and dragged her. The female students have claimed that the lady ran a brothel, which is why they raided the house. Thereby declaring the lady guilty.
Much like Musharraf declared the CJ guilty before a trial, and locked him up.
However, my guess is that if all these ladies (and men) were given an option to migrate to the USA and settle down there, they would utilize the option. I know of a few individual(s), who are their supporter(s) who have utlized this option, and are comfortably settled in the USA.
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