Pakistans Permanent Revolution

Re: # 160

Are you aware of the fact that the 34000 converst to Islam are largely from the prison population and other backward, disaffected groups? John Walker Lindh, the convert associated witht he 7/7 bombing. Same thin in Europe. Islam does not inspire the best and brightest to come into their folds whether it is from Asia, Europe or the States. Reading your posts its is abundantly clear as to why that is. Spare me the usual spewing of hatred.

Re: # 158

Don`t worry about the validity of my Prophet (PBUH), i can proove his prophethood scientifically from Quran a book that had information which was 1400 years ahead of its time. Sir jee when all of you take off the glasses of bigotry then you;`ll see that 34000 americans come within the folds of Islam every year despite all the bad media for a reason. I have no problem people believing in whatever they want to believe in, problem comes when they believe in absurdities and then insists that there delusions are the true Islam. If we believe that Jesus was a mere prophet not actually son of GOD then we dont insist that they take us as christians as well. Its this insistance that, we will break the basic creed of your faith but should still be considered mainstream, infact our lunacies must be held as the true religion. If you have invented new ideas that contradict the basic teaching of a faith then its not that same faith anymore, give it a differnt name, besides you know what they say, What`s in the name anyway?

#146 abu safwan: by the same token, a christian could ask you to provide proof that muhammed was a prophet. or a jewish person could ask a christian to provide proof (using DNA analysis no doubt) that jesus was the son of God. or a zorastrian could demand that jews provide proof that moses did indeed hear the voice of God on the mountain, and did not merely rehash legends from ancient babylon. and so on....

my point is very simple: religion is about belief. a belief by definition is something that cannot be proved. and the Quran exhorts mankind not to take matters into their own hands in matters of belief, since such matters are between the individual and God. If only we muslims followed this wise teaching in the Quran, we would not be in the mess that we are - with sectarian violence, professional priests, confusion on matters of science as well as on matters of individual rights, law and order and justice.

nasah #156 i dont see how musharraf or any government can impose press restrictions in the soviet style even if they tried - given the internet and global newscasts and the large pakistani expatriate community, educated pakistanis (or any other people) can never again be kept in the dark. the jahils in pakistan - of the hafisa kind - will remain in the dark.

nevertheless, Dawn is a fine newspaper and its existence is indeed synonymous with Pakistan, and for the government to try to bring it to financial ruin is just one more step in the wrong direction by musharraf as he seeks to cling to power.

#160 by abu_safwaan

Please don`t allow mirzaees to distract you from the subject at hand.

Re: # 162

Sattar ayk badboo tii tarah hay..bin bullaey aata hayy, mahaul kharab karta orr daffah hojata hay..magarr hayy bayzarar..badboo ki tarah. Tahmed sahab nayy poochhaa n i obliged.

... not pointing to tahmed but the subject was started by sattar2.

Re: # 165 mad-ani
[...nation should thank them...]

No wonder you pakis are so f***ed up :)

Re: # 164
That activity was against law. The law enforcers were helpless for many reasons. Girl student organization as last resort took law in had to stopped illeagal activities and immoral behaviour of people and nation should thank them.

Re: # 164 bulleya

I firmly believe that what ails pakistan cannot be cured with democracy or through education and ``Talqeen``. The time has passed for that. The corrupt ruling elite had time for a magna carta but now that time is lost and they know that too. Second time in the history of Pakistan the oppressive corrupt class has crossed the limit and now they have no regard for a life of Pakistani citizen. Even schoolchildren are not spared and are masacared through laser guided missiles. First time the got away with the genocide of East Pakistanis and lost half the country with impunity and this time they shouldn`t. Enough is enough. Lets accept the fact that Pakistan is a failed state and by supporting oppressive corrupt class we are only prolonging our own missery. State apparatus has failed; institutions have failed; and society is on the verge of collapse. I personally do not like anarchy such that of students of Jamia Hafsa, but what they did was not the disease but a symptom of larger malfeasance in society. But I would rather support the doers and rebels rather than those who deliver surmons to protect status quo.

zeemax #: can you explain what is islamic about barging into someone`s and dragging two women out, locking them up and threatening them.......on top of that, declaring them guilty on one`s own........

do you think a large mob of people (men or women) should have the authority to:

- declare anyone guilty of prositution
- barge into someone`s house
- kidnap the women of the house

would either you or urstruly or anyone be offended if a mob of individuals carried out something similar in your house........i certainly would be and would not want anyone to have the right to do so.......

ahmedmadani

The students took the steps at the request of neighbors. One can assume that the neighbors approached the police before reaching out to the students.

ylh
it`s probably true that there is a procedural problem in making justice chaudhary (name of jeetendra film from `80s) non-functional.
but what if the sjc decides that the two charges against him stick?
i think an author who sets out the position that:
- pakistan`s judiciary has always compromised with the army
- justice chaudhary is brave
- justice bhagwandas has impeccable integrity
will be disappointed by the sjc and bhagwandas should they take a legalistic view and uphold the reference.

secondly, ``The only election religious parties won any seats in was held under the enlightened moderate Pervez Musharraf himself`` is untrue. fazlur rehman`s daddy mufti mahmud was primary opponent of zab.
i think jamiat ul ulema i islam is now permanent entity in pakistan politics (because of pushtun nationalism, however, not islamism, though i`m not sure how the two separate where the jui holds power).
the modernist islamists under maudoodi/qazi sahib never won much; but ``never won any`` is clearly untrue.

thirdly, ``secular and mainstream parties like PPP and PML`` is true only if 15th amendment (amr bin ma`aroof nahi anil munkar) of sharif and 2nd amendment to 1973 constitution (qadianis declared non-muslim) tabled by zab are secular acts. and i think the ppp can never rescind from that act of bigotry. i asked sherry rehman what she thought of that and she asked me to switch my recorder off.
there are no secular parties in pakistan with the (possible) exception of the bhaiyya-biharis of the mqm.

thirdly, ``I am convinced that in his heart of hearts, he is a true patriot and a good man`` is a banal observation.

fourthly, ``he must restore chief justice`` is not possible (unless you`re saying that sjc under good and honourable hindu is pliant -- is it?). matter, as we say in india ALL the time, is sub-judice.

fifthly, ``honourably leave the office of president``? what`re you smoking, man? gimme some of that good stuff!
people in power are convinced they`re doing the right thing for awam, esp faujis. ayub had to be pushed aside by yahya; yahya thought he would remain president after december 1971 (and zab was terrified of him ever after the war); zia had no plan of leaving; what makes musharraf different? the fact that he`s a ``true patriot`` who has a ``heart of hearts`` (yuck) no doubt.

baqi sub fit?
where are temporal and the other pehelwans?
aakar

#164 by bulleya,

Your question pertains to two issues:

1) Whether it is Islamic and ;

2) Whether anyone has the right to do so.

Though there`s a misstatement on your part that ``declare anyone guilty of prositution``. They didn`t do that. It was widely known and many complaints had been lodged. But that`s not the issue.

Re (1) Yes. It is Islamic. There`s a protection of Chaddar and Chardiwari in Islam and one can do anything within the confines of their own four walls as long as it does not disturb others in the community. There`s the episode to cite in this regard of the governor of Yemen during Umar`s time when this principle as well as the four witnesses rule was enforced.

Re (2) Yes. Anyone has a right to rebel if their rights are being plundered and the only recourse is to fight. Please take account of my previous posts where I`ve repeatedly said the attack on aunty shamim`s prostitution den is just a symbol to declare war against the illegitimate military rule and to challenge the government writ.

Again, as I`ve said before, the girls` argument is simple. If musharraf can trample upon all laws to gain and stay in power, then so can they. There`s actually no law in any country once the constitution is abrogated, which is practically the case in Pakistan after the CJ incident.

There is no moral issue in this. The morality in-fact stands suspended for all.

#166 by kaalchakra,

Pls see #148 for the press report in this regard.

Re: # 170

The ``white mans`` system of oppression? Who are you kidding? Do you think Arab imperialism was so enlightened and progessive? How about the wonderful Ottoman empire where the consorts of the rulers were abducted women, ever heard of the Janisseries? Sick concept of orphaned christian boys militarized and taught to hate and become a merciless fighting machine (aka Taliban). Or how about those Arabs, only got around to making slavery illegal in 1976. Or the wonderful caste/apartheid system...is that the white man`s doing? Or how about the rape of Nanking by the Japanese?

Please wake up take you head out of the sands of Arabia and see the world for what is is.
Today a muslims is most likely oppressed/killed/persecuted by another MUSLIM than by a white man, Indian or jew. Until this fact is accpeted, digested and some reform in the backward, closeminded, intolerant Islamic world occurs the Muslim community has nowhere to go but down. I see very few people on this site who understand the urgency of this problem , they just utter empty phrases for the Ummah etc... Urstruly, Tahmed, Zeemax being the worst malefactors.