Girls Gone Wild

ok all,

Lal Masjid new site has been launched. You can visit it on lalmasjid.com. We also have forum there for you to express your views and ask questions.

Persons intersted in being moderators of the fourms can contact me , and send me the private message once they logged in to the forum. I am the admin of the forum.

Fe amanillah

Re: # 1641

hasanmahmood

Thank you dear for your `bharpoor` response to my post, but excuse me it does not provide answer to the question raised by me: As to why of all the world the sex, which is in fact only a cultural issue, has (excepting pederasty by the Mullah) come to occupy a central and focal point in the so called `Islamc morality`? I think the present day hypocritical sex behaviour of the Muslims, especially of the paky brand, is one of the major road blocks in their progress.

I agree with you that the sex by sale (ismat faroshy) is not considered to be a good thing ( though indulged in freely for various reasons), but why not the sale of religion (deen faroshy) giving rise to the mullahism is considered to be a detestable occupation, I wonder?

Again, the clientele of the pros though includes even the elite of the society who indulge in it only as `tamaash beeny` the majority of the clients are the common people suffering from sex-starvation due apparently to the taboos imposed on the sex by the mullah who himself allegedly uses his students just as wives. A question arises: Why the clientele whose demand gives rise to the prostitution are not condemned (rather they are called `saaoos` or `shurrafaa) like the sex-workers (called `kanjars) who provide the sevice to earn their livelihood?

All this boils down again to the question: why the muslims today are extremely sex-phobic?

Zeena, yes the mullahs were 5% before but not anymore. Yes feudalism and abject poverty is to be blamed for this - but many more people are now converting to fundamentalistic idea of Islam(as I say it). Most of the people are frustrated and out of work or are living in bad conditions. Their only escape is to join the mullahs where they feel like they belong because these liberal elites of Pakistan and the politicians never think about them. They are provided with stipend, food, clothing, and living. I went back to Pakistan and saw young people getting more and more radical views because they have no one to voice their concerns to. These people are frustrated and are finding ways to get out of the mess that Pakistan has become.
You are right that Mullahs are not our only problem but they are still a problem nonetheless. You said economy has to be better but the main reason why our economy was bad in the first place was because of Benazir, Nawaz, and these mullahs. Other countries were scared to invest in Pakistan because of these people. So mullahs were definitely obne of the reason why Pakistan came close to bankruptcy. Unlike some people I do think Musharaf has been excellent for this economy. No matter what the reson might be I dont care about him sacking the CJ(Who IS corrupt - by the way) or kidnapping terrorists without trials as long as Pakistan`s economy is doing what it is doing. Example: Because of the situation of Wana, Waziristan, and yes Islamabad lal masjid, Pakistan tourism took a major hit when most of the Japenese coming here refused to come. A small story but these small things become big in world`s eyes. That is why I think mullahs should be stopped. I do believe that if we put every mullah and mullah-minded dari-wallas and burqa-walis in jail for 5 days, Pakistan will become a much better place.

teshah,
it is the same thing as asking the mullahs why they dont voice their concern about poverty, corruption, illegal confinements, bribery, unhygienic conditions, rising cost of living, people killing themselves in the name of religion, karo-kari, marriage to Quran, feudalism etc. For mullahs the most imporatnt thing is to keep people away from sex. Having said that, I absolutely do not agree with prostitution. Yes it is the oldest profession in the world, but it has no place in any society. Even in the so-clled liberal America most of the states have outlawed prostitution. But, whethere these ladies were prostitutes or not, the fault also lies with the government for promoting it. Like I said before if Sharif brothers have a history of visiting brothels with Shabaz getting married to a prostitute (who all of a sudden has become a very respected elite lady) and Bhutto got married to an Iranian prositute, and most of your esteemed politicians visit these places, and most of your television dramas show these prostitutes as a part of every story then what do you eexpect. These hafza girls did a terrible thing. But these girls were never told about the other ills of the society. These same girls probably live in a one room house in some village where they do not have the right to speak their minds. They have no knowledge of the outside world. All of a sudden they are getting their voices heard. Now they are using it wrongfully out of frustration. They are bing manipulated by these mullahs who have no agenda other than to keep people scared; and the best thing for that is SEX.
Also, only Jahil mullahs dont consider talking about sex tabboo. Most of the people are raised that way. For example: when I was growing up everyone told me that alcohol was haram. I asked why and they said that it is written in Quran. So I accepted it. When I grew up I read the Quran and did not ffind alcohol to be haram in all the 3 instances it was mentioned. So I asked again. This time they said it is haram because Huzoor mentioned it in the last khutba. So I asked them how could Huzoor make something haraam when Allah did not make it that way. They had no answer for that. So finally I read the last khutba and nowhere was any mention of alcohol. So I asked again and nobody had an answer. I am not debating whether alcohol is haram or not and I might be completely wrong and I in no way am advocating drinking alcohol but I am just using it as an example to show you how people in Pakistan are raised with certain notions and ideas which are engraved in everyone`s mind by the mullahs. I have seen people listening and believing these mullahs who have never tried to read and understand Quran themselves. In any case, I think the only way people of pakistan are going to be saved is by education (let them read and understand Quran on their own). Hopefully one day it will happen.

hasanmahmood sahib

Mullahs are only 5% in the politics, 85% are feudals and 10% urbans............
Why to blame Mullahs and then religion for everything?

Mullahs are not in the main stream, feudals are.
80% Pakistani population is rural and poor , they are under the clutches of feudals.
They are still deprived of the basic needs, health care, education, job opportunities and even they do not know , if, they are humans or not?

They and their needs are being deliberately ignored by the rest of the Pakistani people, as if they have no right to be called Pakistanis.

They do not care, if, Mullahs rule or if feudals rule, all they care is , how to make ends meet?

And the biggest fact is feudals and governance always use few mullahs just to shine their own corrupt politics and when they are done using them, they always cornered them...............

Suppose, we gather all 5% mullahs and send them to Jail for few years.....

Will this eradicate corruption in Pakistan? No
Will this give basic needs to 80% poor Pakistanis who live in rural areas? No
Will this make Pakistan the developed country? No

There is No issue about religion, to raise this issue is to divert the attention from major issues which are absolutely NOT created by Mullahs......

Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West.....but, they do not apply the same rule over their slaves.......mean 80% poor and oppressed Pakistanis who are living in rural areas.
They have their own small states and they do not wish to change the mind sets of their people, b/c if they do then they won`t be feudals anymore......

And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib.................

It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off...........

Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............

So, just think about all this .......................

Hafsa sisters were sincere in their brave action, but, then their cause was manipulated by Lal Masjid Mullahs.............everyone is useing someone and I am sure these Lal Masjid Mullahs were the puppets of our own corrupt politicians............and also current army to divert the real issues in Pakistan..........

And this is the sad part , but, very true....truth is bitter, but we have to face that......

#1637 hasanmahmood sahib
Well, yes I am ignored by 11 people. It does not make any difference to me at all.
But, let me clear one thing here.

On chowk I know majority of interactors on un plugged have at least one dozen different (IDs)or nicks. And, that`s the funny and sad part, too.

Sometimes, one id of the same person behaves like your friend and other ids put you on ignore or other ids start abusing you.

That`s exactly what happened to me as well.

Suppose I have two ids, then one id can put you on ignore and other id will act like your friend.

This is crazy, crazy, crazy world..............LOL....

Zeena, Zahraj, Hassanmahmood

I wonder why all Jaahilia Muslims are sex-phobic as their `moral` indignation is confined to sex alone. They see nothing immoral in storming a house and abducting four living beings ( including one child) only because they are alleged to have used a little tissue of their bodies to earn their livelihood when (in Urdu) ``Log to yazdaan ko bech dete hein matlab nikalne ke lie``.

Is it because the Muslims are the most sex-starved people of the world today?

Zeena, thanks for the appreciation. Lol Just wanted to let you know that I was extremely surprised to see that you have been ignored by 11 people.
Come on people this is a website for discussion so why ignore anyone. There are always heated arguments everywhere even in a family and I would like to consider Chowk sort of a family (zeemax being the second cousin who even though nobody likes has to be accepted and invited in :))
Zahra, I am unable to view the video currently but will definitely take a look at it. Thank you. I do agree that Pakistan is rapidly becoming an unbearable state when it comes to religious tolerance. In a global world like todays Pakistan will be left behind if it does not change its ways quickly.

I am proud to be Muslim and Pakistani. There is nothing wrong to be a Muslim as long as you do not impose your extremist views on others.

In this case , Hifsa brave girls did a very courageous action. But, the PseduoMullahs crossed their limits and started burning music stores and threatening ...........

I believe that these pseudoMullahs were being used by Politicians.

MQM, if, is sincere in it`s actions then MQM should start rallies against the whole corrupt system which is against 80%rural Pakistanis.

I will see how much MQM is sincere in it`s slogans and in it`s rallies?

Let`s see.............Only time will tell.

I think it is brilliant that both Turkey and Pakistan have had rallies with similar objectives resisting Islamisation ... starting from their respective founding fathers` mausoleums ... Ataturk`s Mausoleum in Ankara and Jinnah`s Mausoleum in Karachi.

It shows that we are ready to liberate Islam and Muslims from the clutches of Islamo-fascists...

hasanmahmood sahib

Thank you very much for your really impressive posts. I never knew before that MQM is based on such a unique values. Yes, as for MQM is, you opened m,y eyes.

atleast, now I have hope that Pakistan has one such party MQM which is based on values, not just corrupt feudalism......Bravo.

As long as Pakistani society is, I do not see so much Mullah`s influence over there. Lately, I have been to Pakistan and I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote covservative areas, honestly I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits........Not even a single person criticised...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed...

In Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore I was feeling as much free as anyone could be in America. No body told me to wear burqa, cover head or do not watch movies....

To be honest with you, I felt more freedom in most of the aspects than USA.

Re: # 1632

Hassan - Folio had posted a BBC Urdu Youtube link of Ms. Shamim and her family. I had not come across that before. I had a very different impression of this episode till I watched and listened to the BBC Report. It certainly did not give an impression that she was running any illegal business.

I was just having lunch with a few friends the other day, one was an attorney who happens to have a Pakistani background. He was extremely concerned on the civil liberties in the Pakistani society. According to him, if you are watching a movie in your home in Pakistan, anyone can walk in and tell you that it`s inappropriate to watch a Hollywood movie since it does not agree with thier view on life. In the end, he made a remark that it`s extremely embarassing to have anything to do with Pakistan in current day and age. Those of us who come from that background have nothing left to take pride in. On an individual level, things are different, but on a broad scale, the world has no respect for lawless countries like Pakistan. Lastly, both Indians and Bangladeshis do not nurture similar sentiments towards the country of their origin. That`s a huge difference.

Something to think about.

And Zeena, I do blame the police the and the political big-wigs for allowing this madam to do what she used to do. I look at the dramas nowadays where one girl is always a prostitute and wonder why every story has to revolve around this subject. Now I know these women are actually living in respected societies. But it is only because the government has turned a blind eye towards them. However instead of kidnapping them there should be other means to counter it. One way is to organize a mahalla group to give warnings and finally taking action (not kidnapping but legal actionor ostracizing them etc. I have seen it work wonders. ). Secondly, I understand that the Madam was wrong. But then what about the library occupation because the givernment was razing the illegal structures? Khair, hopefully this matter will be resolved soon.

Zeena,
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don`t agree with. ~Eleanor Holmes Norton
It has been a pleasure to disagree with you. Just one more thing. You asked
``If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?``
Despite me not liking Altaf Hussain, I do like what MQM has to say, especially about the feudal system and Woman`s Protection bill. In order to understand what MQM is we have to see how it evolved. MQM was formed by Altaf Hussain and Azeem Tariq (very intelligent person – allegedly murdered by Altaf due to power struggles) during their university days because of their stand against religious extremism and feudal lords. My father was the registrar of the university so I was living in university campus and was very close to everything. The party started because of the so-called “ghunda gardi” by Punjab Student’s Association and Jamat-e-Islami when they started harassing women and beating up male students. The main ideology of MQM was always to fight against feudalism and religious extremism. I was a member of MQM since my college days. In the middle bad times came because Altaf had no good advisor and he made some terrible decisions. That changed after educated people floated to the top. Now the party also stands up for Women as well as against Feudalism.
Now the second part as to why MQM supports Musharaf. The true answer to this question is because MQM is a Karachi party. During the Benazir, Nawaz tenure people who suffered the most were Karachiites. On one hand they were brutally murdered (Benazir’s action in Hyderabad when 1200 people died in one night) and on the other they were treated with utmost contempt by Nawaz Sharif. They had to beg for everything including money and resources. Everyday 100000 people come into Karachi. Would you know how many actually go back? The answer is not many. Anyway, finally there was a leader who was from Karachi, and was willing to let Karachi use its own money to develop itself. Finally there was a guy who did not put his cronies in every institution of Karachi. During Benazir and Nawaz, Karachi (which never used to sleep) actually used to close down at 7 pm because of the illegal activities going on. The city was in a horrible condition, roads dilapidated, no new businesses, and no resources (as everything was being used by everyone else from other provinces). People used to get their travel documents ripped up at the airport (personal plus I have heard a lot of close people rehash their stories) by these political party supporters. There was no law and order. On one hand Zardari did not have the guts (political smartness) to do these things in Lahore (as PPP needed Punjab), and on the other Zardari was destroying Karachi. He was called Mr. 10 % for a reason. That is why you will see people (MQM) supporting this government because no matter what anyone else thinks, this government has finally realized the Mohajir contribution. But that does not mean that MQM never goes against the government. Below are some links as examples.


http://www.paktribune.com/news/print.php?id=162220
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?162220
www.mqm.org/news-2006/news-2006.htm
www.dawn.com/2002/10/09/nat27.htm
www.aaj.tv/news/news.php?pg=3&show=detail&nid=49718

#1629 hasanmahmood sahib

You are glad that you and I agree on so many issues that you raised in your earlier posts for me.

Well, I am also gald that we both are almost like minded Pakistanis.

but, hey hasanmahmood sahib

We both should also be glad to take our disagreements as decently and with open minds and hearts without sounding condescending and without patronizing eachother.

And at the end with agreeing to disagree without insulting eacother.
and I am proud of you that despite holding some different views on this issue, you did not insult me and you gave me an open chance to discuss with me my stand.

Thanks fo rbeing a nice gentleman...

#1628 hasanmahmood sahib

Thanks for taking time and reading my posts.
Yes, both of us do agree on many of such issues.

But, I still strongly support JH brave clads stand against Madam Shamim. I am not infavor of Pseudo Mullahs, b/c they are ignorant and they do not know their limits.

PseudoMullahs are as corrupt as anyone could be. They have done nothing for the progress of Pakistan, but, again I will respect and will support the good action and morally correct action , no matter what the source is.

MQM is against pseudoMullahs, excellent....all of us are..

But, my only question is, mullahs are not in the main stream of Pakistani politics and they have had always been sold and used by feudal lords.

My suspicions for MQM is that this is also being used by feudal lords and musharaf.

If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?

#1627 samar1982

You can me simpleton..........or whatever. Yes, I am proud that I am not cunning or conniving. I always stand for the truth on my own firm grounds.

In this case you seem to be simpleton.........b/c you do not read my posts and start samething all over again.

My stand on this issue is crystal clear.

Now, if, you wish to call me Mullha...I can not help it....go ahead call me whatever....Now, if, you wish to call me jihadi...go ahead....I can not help it.

I am sorry , but, you sound like majority of Indian chowkies( except for few ones), who do not even try to understand and who do not even try to read our posts and start their (FATWAS) against Pakistanis.

They start calling every Pakistani(jihadi, talibani and mullah).....

I am Muslim...........does it make me pseudo mullah/johadi/talibani? NO absolutely not.
I am Pakistani...does it make me as anything as above? No abolutely not.

I do not wish to repeat this again and again....Please, read my posts again, if, you wish to.

If, you`re repeating yourself again....Let me make it very very clear....Yes, JH brave girls did the right action @ the right time.

Whatever happened latter by pseudoMullahs in Lal Masjid was not right...and I already gave my reasons in my prior posts.

Will you please, stop patronizing me? You are being, too CONDESCENDING here....Just think about it.

I have nothing to do with mullahs....but, sorry the nature of your posts also remind me that you`re another mullah type for your condescending behaviour.

You are exactly doing the samething here[[self righteous]]], me, me, me......

Anyway.......

I am proud that I still stand firmly for the right action of JH girls and will always do, no matter what the source would be.....

Thanks