Girls Gone Wild
Shandana Minhas April 2, 2007
#1564 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:10:54 pm
hasanmahmood sahib
This is the part 2 of my original post..............again I divided my post in to two parts just for your convenience....................thanks
# 4:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 5:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 6:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 7:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards
This is the part 2 of my original post..............again I divided my post in to two parts just for your convenience....................thanks
# 4:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 5:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 6:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 7:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards
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#1563 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:06:23 pm
Dear hasanmahmood sahib # 1547.............
I am sorry for the length of this post..............
So, for your convenience , I am going to re post and divide my Post # 1562 in to two posts............
First part..............
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either..........
Next post will follow this post..................thanks
I am sorry for the length of this post..............
So, for your convenience , I am going to re post and divide my Post # 1562 in to two posts............
First part..............
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either..........
Next post will follow this post..................thanks
#1562 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 8:00:56 pm
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either.
# 5:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 6:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 7:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 8:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards
With all due respect, Let me once more try to clear my POV on this issue and I will honestly answer all your questions one by one.
I am not just passing the time, trust me, If, I would have been passing this time, I would have been shopping or watching movies. But, instead I am here writting to you with all the honesty and fairness of my heart.
I strongly hope that you will read and will try to understand my POV with broad mind, enlightened moderation and without being fascist. I appreciate that you never ever tried to harass me, never ever abused me, always tried to interact with me with respect and with your dignity and trust me that is the only reason I am taking your interact seriously and is trying to respond to you with equal respect.
First of all, I am extremely disappointed by the way, my opponents have ganged up against me, including Males and ONE Female on this board and tried their best to harass me, abuse me , call me names and did everything under the sun to make me change my POV particularly on this very issue.
Let me ask you, Suppose right now I say, alright (HF girls are wrong, they are the worst humans on this earth) and all of you who abused me on this board just for one SIN that I supported a good act by HF girls only on this web site( are right and are very fine humans), I just gave my opinion. So, they gave me punishment for speaking up my independent MIND, so, they slashed me with their tongue blades just for standing up for my freedom of expression..................yes, they are very fine humans..........
So, what example did they set for me to look up to? What exemplary behavior they set for me to follow their POV`s? What act of decency did they establish here on this board that I should start worshipping them instead?
This is just an anon web site, where different interactors are supposed to come with their unflinching idealism and give their own POV`s. Without getting personal.
If, you re read all my posts and compare them to the ones who abused me, personally attacked me, collected all kinds of personal informations about me and tried their best to harass me.
I could have done the worst , but, all I did I kept on repeating my POV and did not surrender. And they made it their life to come to this board and harass me more.They made it their life and death type of a situation to abuse me and to personally attack me without even understanding my POV............
Only, you are the first and probably last interactor who took his precious time and asked me all these questions with the honesty of your heart. I smelled the fairness in this post of your`s and that is the main reason, I am answering your queries............You did not try to personally attack me, you did not collect all kinds of information about me to attack me out of some unknown personal REVENGE.........GOD(ALMIGHTY) KNOWS why? I am speechless on few ineractors here, they crossed all their limits of decency and they forgot that this is just a web site................We are perfect strangers for eachother.......Nothing personal..........But, I guess this is another lesson that I learned from this web site........................for my future plans and projects............
Well, even then I will be calm, composed and collected. Only my God(Almighty) is my witness. If I am true or NOT.
Now, let me answer your questions one by one............
#1:{{You ask me whether I want an Islamic state to not. Of course I do. But a true Islamic state, where nobody has a fear of living according to his/her own beliefs. I don`t want a Pakistan where people like Zeemax and their convoluted theories are in majority. I don`t want a Pakistan where these mullahs can take the law into their own hands without any fear of reprisals. I don`t want a Pakistan where you cannot say anything wrong about a dari-walla for the fear of prosecution. I don`t want a Pakistan where Mullahs tell me what and what Not to do. I want a Pakistan where people learn to live with each other. I do care about your POV not because I want to change it but because I do think of you as an intelligent person.]]]
Answer:- hasanmahmood sahib
Let me be honest with you here. I am absolutely NOT asking you to have an Islamic state.Show me a single post by me, where did I ask you to have an Islamic state? Never. of course I do not wish to see Pakistan as Islamic state. I wish to see Pakistan as a secular country, where each and every religious belief is equally respected , where people are free to practice their moral beliefs without any fear of extremism or fanaticism or Mullahism or dictatorship of any kind, where no one can play power or God, where all citizens (poor or rich) regardless of their status are treated with equal respect and dignity.Where , whether you are Mullah or NOT Mullah, no one should be above law.
And same goes for the ones who call themselves Liberals, but, show extreme intolerance (Like this board is an alive example of such behavior) , where those of my opponents showed extreme hate for me . Why? Just B/c I supported HF girls stand for the right action. I did not do any gaali gaaloch for them. ONE Female even gathered all my personal information and personally attacked me, and harassed me, while other abused me with the vilest abuse possible.
I am never an extremist, rather trust me these pseudoMullahs ( in my real life ) call me (kafir), which I always laugh..............But, I know what I am and what I am not.
I do not need anyone`s approval or disapproval. And frankly I am proud of what I am with all my ideology and with all my good deeds that I have had been doing and will still do in future.Nothing can stop me for loving poor oppressed Pakistanis and nothing can stop me for standing up for the right actions...........Period.
#2:- [[As for as Zeemax is....trust me, we do not know each other, we are completely strangers for each other. Sometimes , we agree and sometimes we disagree. But, one thing is for sure, Zeemax has never insulted me even when I have disagreed with him on other issues.
Zeemax is an independent, matured, married with kids and professional interactor with extra energies. Trust me I do not have any kind of influence upon him and same way Zeemax doesn`t have any kind of influence upon my mind.
If, we agree on this issue, It doesn`t mean anything. Still, we both are independent individuals , free thinkers and I respect him and all of you who did not abuse me for their patience with me.
I do not come on chowk to make any kind of PR or any kind of gangs or groupies or friends. I have sufficient friends and NO enemy in my real life. I am happily married professional woman with great many projects accomplished and so much more ahead to be accomplished.
I love Chowk and may be like everyone else I am now little addicted to this web site...........LOL.........
# 3:-[[[He probably does not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become. he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Answer:-Again I am absolutely NOT answerable on behalf of Zeemax for all his opinions and ideologies. I am a kind of person , you can call a real open minded and free thinker, I hate to impose my POV`s on others. If, you disagree with me, It does not mean you are my enemy. If I agree with you, again It does not mean I am your friend. This is not a high school class room,{{ where your friends are my friends and your enemies are my enemies based on our agreements and disagreements on some issues.}}.
If, Zeemax loves Mullahs, let him be. If , Zeemax hates Mullahs , let him be. That doesn`t affect my mental and Physical health and I won`t hold grudges against some people based on their own individual ideology either. May be on next board, you and I will be in complete agreement on some issue. Does it mean we will be friends or enemies? NO, not all. We are matured nation and are proud to be Pakistanis and Muslims, of course.
If, you ask me , [[[that I do not know that Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world}}
My answer for this for me( again I am not talking on behalf of Zeemax). is.....
I do not see any hate for Muslims among average Americans now, they do not care at all. They only care, if, they are being affected by the presence of Muslims. To be honest , they do not even care, if, Muslim women wear Burqa or no burqa at all. These are just our fears.
The point is how we present ourselves , while living abroad? I never have had any problem regarding that very matter. And why should I be guilty for the crime or sin that I haven`t done? I am as innocent as any other American citizen is and I am as innocent as any other Pakistani citizen could be. I am absolutely NOT answerable to those who are biased and bigots and who are generalizing all the Muslims based on racial or religious profiling. B/c I am NOT Mullah, I am NOT jihadi and I am absolutely NOT a Taliban, either.
# 5:-[[he probably loves everyone who believes in everything these mullahs tell them without ever reading Koran. he probably encourages people NOT to read Koran but to listen to these mullahs]]]
Again, I am not answerable to what Zeemax believes? And trust me, again the way I am, I will never get offended , if, he loves Mullahs or their ways. B/c this is his life, not mine. He is a free man to think and to do what is right for his mind. Who am I to brainwash HIM to change his POV to suit my mind?
Yes, If, you ask me the same question , for myself. My answer is...........NO I do not love Mullahs and their ways. I know their kind of Islam is just mis interpretation of Quran to suit their minds. I always call them Pseudos. But, I do not impose my ideology upon them either. I am comfortable with Mullahism, as long as they do not impose their kind of Islam upon me. As long as I am not being affected.
I am not in secured by their presence. Plus, they have very little role to play in the political arena of Pakistan. Majority of Politicians are NOT Mullahs.
I read Quran almost daily and then interpret with my own mind and trust me I trust my interpretations more than anyone else. Mullahs are absolutely NOT the owner of Islam. Islam is not their commodity. It is a true belief just like any other belief.
I always respect all beliefs equally, I never hurl abuses to other religions. B/c, I strongly believe , if, you wish them to respect your belief, then you got to respect their`s and vice versa. But, here on this web site.
Even though I do not abuse other`s beliefs and nationalities, majority of interactors hurl tons of unnecessary abuses for Islam and for Pakistan. That is unacceptable. Even then I do not cross my limits and do not lower myself to their level.
I do not blindly trust Mullahs............I trust myself and my Quranic interpretations more than anyone else and also I trust in valid Hadiths( I totally reject Invalid hadiths).
But, one thing is for sure, I stand up for the right action ..............no matter where it is coming from.
Like here on this board, I strongly believe Hafsa Brave clads did the right action( I do not need to repeat my thoughts on this stand all over again) If, you wish you can read my posts.
I believe , if, corrupt Police failed to give the basic right of living with peace of mind in their homes, the people have every right to stand up against their violation of rights. I strongly believe, this matter is the matter of social morality............If, you do not wish to live right next door to a brothel and drug trafficking and all the pornography, you have every right to raise your voice, if, your state failed to provide you the basic right to live in a decent neighborhood of your own choice.
Let me give you an example..............In America, when we move to a new neighborhood , what is the first thing of concern that we ask from our seller or home owner?
We always ask, if, this is a decent neighborhood? If, this is the right neighborhood to raise our kids? If, this is the crime free, drug free, prostitution free, brothel free neighborhood? If, this is a SAFE neighborhood to live with your peace of mind?
And we investigate before moving in............B/c we believe we have every right to live with our own values, with our own cultural mannerism, with our own preferences........................with our own choices.
And I believe , every decent and moral society( No matter which religion, no matter which country) set certain rules of ethics, set certain rules of dignity and certain set moral standards to abide by.
I lived in Pakistan, London, Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, France and Bermuda and Dubai...............I did not see any difference in this code of conduct, which is universally acceptable. And with which I am raised.
If, Madam Shamim ( with all her illegal activities) wanted to perform such sorts of activities, my only stand was/is and will be she better would have moved to the area where she is accepted with all her ganged illegal activities...................................Line has to be drawn somewhere and there is absolutely NO excuse for Madam Shamim to perform her illegal and harassing activities in that particular family neighborhood. Period.
And, trust me there is much corruption at each and every level in Pakistan, which needs to be addressed. And, I am sure this is the wake up call and just the beginning of a new era.........
Isn`t it shame that Pakistan is considered a # 1 corrupt country in this world? Yes, I do feel shame........And I am sincere in my part to make this country as much corruption free as possible. I wish to see Pakistan as much progressed as possible. Trust me, I do............
Even, if, some jeans clads would have done this action( like Hafsa sisters), I would have appreciated them the same way.
Even, if, some Pakistani men( No matter beard or no beard), jeans or shalwaar Kameez, I would have supported their stand.
# 6:-[[[You, however have disagreed with him in the past on many occasions, so what I don`t understand is why you think that Jamai Hafzaa girls are so brave to stand up against the law and order. lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Again, I already answered this question above about my disagreement with Zeemax.
Again, I will never ever recommend to take law and order in their hands at first place. I am very peaceful citizen myself.
But, if, Law and order failed to protect your rights, if, law and order are themselves corrupted your rights, if, law and order have lost their true face and values, if, there is very selective and biased law and order..........means if, law and order is only for a particular people and spare the rest of the people, if, law and order are weak............
Then If, I feel the need to take law in my hands , I will stand up for my self defense. No doubt about it.
why law and order are made? for the protection of people rights....If, they start violating their rights instead, then as a respectable citizen, I have every right to stand up for my basic right.............I believe , if, I will not stand up, then I am equally violating the law which is made for my protection.
If, I am being harassed in my own home , my first response will be to call Police. My second response will be AGAIN to call Police(depending upon the emergency of my need). But, in spite of my variable calls, if, Police won`t show up or ignore my requests..............then I will NOT surrender in front of harasser to let him/her do whatever he/she wishes to do. I will then play the role of Police myself. I will then become SELF POLICE, just to defend myself. Period.
# 7:-[[lets say Musharaf was not in power. Would you say the same thing if there was democracy in the country? ]]]
Answer:- Trust me, there is no question of democracy here. Suppose, there is NO Musharaf here and there is Imran Khan or BB or Nawaz Sharif as heads of state................I would have supported Hafsa brave clads the same way.
No matter what Governance it is( democracy or dictatorship), I would have done exactly the same thing.
I am not scared of burqa or Mullahs, they CAN not affect my ways of Life...........if, we live in Pakistan or In USA or anywhere in the world. I know what My stand is for...........It is not for mullahs establishment, it has got nothing to do with burqa.............this is the right action that was taken when everything else failed.
# 8:-[[[Would you say the same thing about thee hooligans who want to close down the music stores or burn the cinema houses down. When do you think it should stop?]]]
Answer:- Just go back and read all my posts..............Tell me one post where did I support Mullahs for Lal Masjid`s Incident? Show me where did I support their demands for closing down the music stores or burn film theaters(cinema houses)?
Again, I believe that Lal Masjid`s incident and other stuff is just that some pseudo Mullahs took advantage of this whole situation and got all nerved up for their own selfish agendas.
Yes, I will demand closing down of music stores, if, their NOISES disrupt my daily routine. If, their NOISES disturb my sleep and the sleeps of my neighborhood............if, I am studying and their noises are disturbing my studies..................Then I will inform the higher authorities or will try to discuss it out with the owners of Music stores about my problems, if, my family is sick........If, this can be settled down in a very nice and peaceful way, I will not take any action myself.
I do not have any problem with selling CDs or DVDs..........
Again, let me clear one more thing.........I think even Loud speakers in Mosques should be banned, if, they do disturb your sleep and your studies and your daily routine.
Back in the past, there were NO loud speakers in the mosques..........even then people used to pray with more enthusiasm...............
We do not need loud speakers at all for any purposes. I do not even like loud music in Pakistani transport as well...............
It has got nothing to do with religion..................
At the end...........hasanmahmood sahib
To you , your belief and to me my own................
Regards
#1561 Posted by teshah on April 13, 2007 7:18:52 pm
Re: # 1511
hasanmehmood
``The above mentioned will probably put you (Zeena) on the right side.....``
How can you expect that from Zeena and for that matter from all the muslims who are, according to Iqbal, mostly `Kushtaae- Mullaai-o-Sultaani`?
In fact Karballa was the final debacle of Mohammadi Islam against the Yazidi `Islam` which is continuing to this day as a political Islam.
As regards zeena she is only an old girl (?) gone wild as they say `Seeng kataa ke bichhron mein shaamil ho gai he`. She reminds me of a couplet from Bhartari Hari in Manu Samriti as also corroborated in verse 34 of Quranic Soora Nissa:
Dhol, ganwaar, shoodar, pishu, naari
Sab hein taarhan ke adhikaari
( It means the woman, inter alia, is amenable only to beating or the woman deserves only to be beaten)
hasanmehmood
``The above mentioned will probably put you (Zeena) on the right side.....``
How can you expect that from Zeena and for that matter from all the muslims who are, according to Iqbal, mostly `Kushtaae- Mullaai-o-Sultaani`?
In fact Karballa was the final debacle of Mohammadi Islam against the Yazidi `Islam` which is continuing to this day as a political Islam.
As regards zeena she is only an old girl (?) gone wild as they say `Seeng kataa ke bichhron mein shaamil ho gai he`. She reminds me of a couplet from Bhartari Hari in Manu Samriti as also corroborated in verse 34 of Quranic Soora Nissa:
Dhol, ganwaar, shoodar, pishu, naari
Sab hein taarhan ke adhikaari
( It means the woman, inter alia, is amenable only to beating or the woman deserves only to be beaten)
#1560 Posted by KaalChakra on April 13, 2007 4:24:28 pm
If anyone knows, or cares to share information...based on # 1598, while Ahmedis should keep rapidly expanding their operations and presence within the non-Islamic world, within the fold of Islam - in Islamic countries - the rate of their growth (after taking out the factor of natural reproduction) should begin, in relative terms, to diminish.
That`s just one case, but it would be interesting to know if it is following the expected pattern.
That`s just one case, but it would be interesting to know if it is following the expected pattern.
#1559 Posted by KaalChakra on April 13, 2007 4:11:23 pm
ooops, # 1558 must be construed to mean nothing at all about respected Dr. Sohail, personally. All such arguments relate only to groups of people, never ever to any specific individual(s).
#1558 Posted by KaalChakra on April 13, 2007 4:05:37 pm
eastmwest
``thoughtful ones like Dr. Sohail leave the fold``
Again, non-Muslims might want to be careful about concluding that lot`s of Muslims are giving up on Islam. That may indeed be happening (is there any actual research available on this subject?), but is unlikely. Logically, the following should happen.
VERY VERY few, if any at all, of thinkers or non-thinkers alike - will EVER actually leave the fold of Islam. No matter what, or what it takes to make that happen, they will continue to identify themselves as Muslims. And if Zee is right (as I believe he is), it`s only the identity that really matters in the final analysis.
The rest of the malcontents will satisfy themselves by simply re-inventing their own/personal Islam by borrowing wholesale from any other religion they can find (the private aspects; public aspects of religion being much harder to borrow or change). Then, for the continued safety of their bodies and their souls, these reinventors will explain to to all (others who ask) why they - and those who agree with them - alone have discovered the real message of the Quran.
[Even more interesting prediction is that among these latter `leavers` and `re-interpreters,` within two or three generations, Islam-as-it-is will regenerate itself (self-corrected, in Zee`s terms), and matters will be back to normal.]
These guesses are based on a particular view of the amazing power and inner pull of Islam. That view could well be wrong, in which case these guesses would all be all far off the mark.
``thoughtful ones like Dr. Sohail leave the fold``
Again, non-Muslims might want to be careful about concluding that lot`s of Muslims are giving up on Islam. That may indeed be happening (is there any actual research available on this subject?), but is unlikely. Logically, the following should happen.
VERY VERY few, if any at all, of thinkers or non-thinkers alike - will EVER actually leave the fold of Islam. No matter what, or what it takes to make that happen, they will continue to identify themselves as Muslims. And if Zee is right (as I believe he is), it`s only the identity that really matters in the final analysis.
The rest of the malcontents will satisfy themselves by simply re-inventing their own/personal Islam by borrowing wholesale from any other religion they can find (the private aspects; public aspects of religion being much harder to borrow or change). Then, for the continued safety of their bodies and their souls, these reinventors will explain to to all (others who ask) why they - and those who agree with them - alone have discovered the real message of the Quran.
[Even more interesting prediction is that among these latter `leavers` and `re-interpreters,` within two or three generations, Islam-as-it-is will regenerate itself (self-corrected, in Zee`s terms), and matters will be back to normal.]
These guesses are based on a particular view of the amazing power and inner pull of Islam. That view could well be wrong, in which case these guesses would all be all far off the mark.
#1557 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 2:17:14 pm
#1547 by hasanmahmood sahib
Right now , I am busy, I will be back after few hours and will answer all your questions one by one with all the honesty of my heart.
Thank you for your patience.
Right now , I am busy, I will be back after few hours and will answer all your questions one by one with all the honesty of my heart.
Thank you for your patience.
#1556 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 1:39:31 pm
[[#1548 by Urstruly on April 13, 2007 12:11pm PT
Re: # 1545
Unfortunately, as a nation, we have come to the point where justice is not possible without danda and of course it will be Taliban and Talibaat danda this time.]]]
Sadly, I have to accept this is true to what is happening right now in Pakistan............sigh***
Re: # 1545
Unfortunately, as a nation, we have come to the point where justice is not possible without danda and of course it will be Taliban and Talibaat danda this time.]]]
Sadly, I have to accept this is true to what is happening right now in Pakistan............sigh***
#1555 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 1:36:52 pm
[[[#1543 by Urstruly on April 13, 2007 11:41am PT
J`waan behnoN ke khushk aansoo zameer-e-alam se hum-sukhan hain
Kahaan hamaara lahoo bikay gaa? Kahaan hamaara shabaab do ge?]]
Urstruly sahib
This is such a sad news that I can not stop my tears. I am really crying on this tragic news. So, they were just waiting for the quittal of Cheif Justice and as soon as he resigned, they freed the rapists under their umbrella............
What an enlightened moderation this is ? exactly under the supervision of General Musharaf, who claims that he is for all freedom. So, in that case , is he not responsible for the protection of all citizens rights?
Or General Musharaf himself is supporting these rapists to flourish under his dictatorship.
Why no one is raising voice against all this?
Why so called moderator Pakistanis are silent upon this extrememly barbaric act?
Why they have become the part and parcel of this cruel game?
Why, oh, why?
J`waan behnoN ke khushk aansoo zameer-e-alam se hum-sukhan hain
Kahaan hamaara lahoo bikay gaa? Kahaan hamaara shabaab do ge?]]
Urstruly sahib
This is such a sad news that I can not stop my tears. I am really crying on this tragic news. So, they were just waiting for the quittal of Cheif Justice and as soon as he resigned, they freed the rapists under their umbrella............
What an enlightened moderation this is ? exactly under the supervision of General Musharaf, who claims that he is for all freedom. So, in that case , is he not responsible for the protection of all citizens rights?
Or General Musharaf himself is supporting these rapists to flourish under his dictatorship.
Why no one is raising voice against all this?
Why so called moderator Pakistanis are silent upon this extrememly barbaric act?
Why they have become the part and parcel of this cruel game?
Why, oh, why?
#1554 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 1:30:18 pm
#1542 by zeemax
Yes, they call all Pakistanis Jihadis and Mullahs. And still they think we should take them seriously or they have all the logic...............LOL
If, you talk about Islam , Muslim , Pakistan............They will jump and will start calling you names like Talibans , Mullahs............this is their logic..........................and this is the only limited logic that they are left with.
I am proud to be Pakistani. Period.
If, they wish to murder me for my patriotism, I will be happy to sacrifice my own life for my beloved country, Pakistan. Pakistan Zindabad.
zeemax
ali_1 is a good hearted one, no matter what I like him. He keeps them on their shoes.
Yes, they call all Pakistanis Jihadis and Mullahs. And still they think we should take them seriously or they have all the logic...............LOL
If, you talk about Islam , Muslim , Pakistan............They will jump and will start calling you names like Talibans , Mullahs............this is their logic..........................and this is the only limited logic that they are left with.
I am proud to be Pakistani. Period.
If, they wish to murder me for my patriotism, I will be happy to sacrifice my own life for my beloved country, Pakistan. Pakistan Zindabad.
zeemax
ali_1 is a good hearted one, no matter what I like him. He keeps them on their shoes.
#1553 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 1:22:44 pm
#1532 eastwest jii
Please, read this post,b/c I wrote not poor in my prior post. It is still poor.....thanks
No Mullahs have a very small role in the politics of Pakistan. They are only dummies , their remote control is in the hands of feudal lords, who are the real reason that Pakistan is still poor despite Majority of Pakistani people are hardworking, brave, intelligent and are willing to survive in their sturggle.
The basic problems of Pakistan are, (poverty, illiteracy, suppression of poor women folks with no equal rights, violation of human rights, lack of education, violation of the poor rights.Feudal lords like vaderas, chaudhrys, and Khans , they are the main reason , the rural areas of Pakistan are still poor and they abuse their own kind of perverted democracy to control poors and to gain more power for their own selfish agendas.
Mullahs have no role to play, trust me.
Please, read this post,b/c I wrote not poor in my prior post. It is still poor.....thanks
No Mullahs have a very small role in the politics of Pakistan. They are only dummies , their remote control is in the hands of feudal lords, who are the real reason that Pakistan is still poor despite Majority of Pakistani people are hardworking, brave, intelligent and are willing to survive in their sturggle.
The basic problems of Pakistan are, (poverty, illiteracy, suppression of poor women folks with no equal rights, violation of human rights, lack of education, violation of the poor rights.Feudal lords like vaderas, chaudhrys, and Khans , they are the main reason , the rural areas of Pakistan are still poor and they abuse their own kind of perverted democracy to control poors and to gain more power for their own selfish agendas.
Mullahs have no role to play, trust me.
#1552 Posted by eastmwest on April 13, 2007 1:12:14 pm
Re: # 1547
Muslims give people the creeps...yeah that means practically all non-Muslims because ALL they do is talk about Islam, how great it is, how perfect Mohammed is, how glorious it is blah, blah. Any reasonable person who scratches beneath the surface is disturbed by many facets of specifically it`s essentially facist doctrine. Al lot of these converts were non Arabic speakers and did not know what they were getting into. It persists because of brainwashing that starts in childhood and severe penalites and osctracization for anyone who leaves or begs to differ.
One observation I have seen is that typically the most intelligent and thoughtful ones like Dr. Sohail leave the fold and typically new converts are the sad sorry sacks from other societies.
Islam also has the unfortunate effect of bringing out militancy in even the most peaceful tolerant societies. People get sick of hearing fatwa this fatwa that. Always someone should die for thei religion of peace.
Unless some huge reformation happens this society will rot and the high birth rates won`t help.
Muslims give people the creeps...yeah that means practically all non-Muslims because ALL they do is talk about Islam, how great it is, how perfect Mohammed is, how glorious it is blah, blah. Any reasonable person who scratches beneath the surface is disturbed by many facets of specifically it`s essentially facist doctrine. Al lot of these converts were non Arabic speakers and did not know what they were getting into. It persists because of brainwashing that starts in childhood and severe penalites and osctracization for anyone who leaves or begs to differ.
One observation I have seen is that typically the most intelligent and thoughtful ones like Dr. Sohail leave the fold and typically new converts are the sad sorry sacks from other societies.
Islam also has the unfortunate effect of bringing out militancy in even the most peaceful tolerant societies. People get sick of hearing fatwa this fatwa that. Always someone should die for thei religion of peace.
Unless some huge reformation happens this society will rot and the high birth rates won`t help.
#1551 Posted by ZahraJ on April 13, 2007 1:04:05 pm
Hassan -
[Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become.]
Thank you for identifying a global issue.
Folio -
Yes, that`s the article I was looking for. Pupose achieved. Thanks.
[Muslims are hated and looked down upon in the whole world because of what they have become.]
Thank you for identifying a global issue.
Folio -
Yes, that`s the article I was looking for. Pupose achieved. Thanks.
#1550 Posted by Zeena on April 13, 2007 1:03:26 pm
Chowk Moderators / Invigilators -
Please advise Madam ZahraJ to stop using my name in her posts. I have rarely cared to browse through her posts barring a few where I found flowery language surrounding my name.
It seems that Madam ZahraJ is hell bent upon enforcing her views on the rest of the world. No one is obligated to buy into anyone`s ideologues and approach. I find it real offensive when she starts being derogatory left, right and center in response to a view. That`s so immaturish. She needs to back off and walk away when people disagree with her views. It seems she cannot handle disagreements. No one is forcing her to like the JH women and dislike Madam Sahmim. Who cares whether she joins them or not? I don`t. She cannot force anyone to dislike the JH women and like Madam Shamim. Period.
Chowk is NOT an anonymous discussion board. People like Madam ZahraJ may hide behind her computer because they cannot write their views (good or bad) EVEN under their real identity. They do not have the back-bone to share their flowery language EVEN under their real identities. Madam zahraj - is an actor in this theatrical production.
It seems the war and hatred against JH women gave enough ammunition to some talented people on Chowk to conduct a theatrical right here. Fortunately or unfortunately, all of us do not intend to be part of the caste and crew.
I will appreciate if you deliver this note on a silver platter with myrrh and frankincense.
Thanks for your professionalism.
Please advise Madam ZahraJ to stop using my name in her posts. I have rarely cared to browse through her posts barring a few where I found flowery language surrounding my name.
It seems that Madam ZahraJ is hell bent upon enforcing her views on the rest of the world. No one is obligated to buy into anyone`s ideologues and approach. I find it real offensive when she starts being derogatory left, right and center in response to a view. That`s so immaturish. She needs to back off and walk away when people disagree with her views. It seems she cannot handle disagreements. No one is forcing her to like the JH women and dislike Madam Sahmim. Who cares whether she joins them or not? I don`t. She cannot force anyone to dislike the JH women and like Madam Shamim. Period.
Chowk is NOT an anonymous discussion board. People like Madam ZahraJ may hide behind her computer because they cannot write their views (good or bad) EVEN under their real identity. They do not have the back-bone to share their flowery language EVEN under their real identities. Madam zahraj - is an actor in this theatrical production.
It seems the war and hatred against JH women gave enough ammunition to some talented people on Chowk to conduct a theatrical right here. Fortunately or unfortunately, all of us do not intend to be part of the caste and crew.
I will appreciate if you deliver this note on a silver platter with myrrh and frankincense.
Thanks for your professionalism.
#1549 Posted by zeemax on April 13, 2007 1:02:52 pm
#1546 by devkant,
This article`s number of interacts has nothing to do with the article itself. It is a stupid comedy like Salim Chauhan`s FP piece about making a Jinnahpur. This article just appeared when emotions were charged and used as a forum. The author has nothing to do with it.
As for the abuse, yes I`m getting a good dose. Would you care to join in?
Regards.
(BTW I`m much more polite now, though I still despise hindoos :)
This article`s number of interacts has nothing to do with the article itself. It is a stupid comedy like Salim Chauhan`s FP piece about making a Jinnahpur. This article just appeared when emotions were charged and used as a forum. The author has nothing to do with it.
As for the abuse, yes I`m getting a good dose. Would you care to join in?
Regards.
(BTW I`m much more polite now, though I still despise hindoos :)