The Hypocrisy of the Indian Leftists

krishna_abcd #112

`` [There are a few groups like Askenazi Jews who do have a higher genetic component for intellectual and business success. ]

So since are you saying that Askenazi Jews are genetically superior to others, you believe in the theory that some races are genetically superior to others.

Hmmm.... How about Brahmins then? Could they also be genetically superior to others? ``

Intelligence is a function of heredity and culture.

Except Jews account for 40% of all Nobel Prizes - they dominate in law, finance, journalism and business in addition to science, engineering and medicine. Of course Israeli Jews proved that they can kick some ass.

I doubt you would find too much genetic differences between Brahmins and non-Brahmins. Ignoring the ocassional specimen like you I will give Tamil Brahmins credit for being forward looking and progressive. They have adapted from putting down lower castes to co-existing and prospering with them.

No jang mian...

Forget that the expanding electorate repeatedly elected Jinnah... be it as a Congress candidate or an ML one.

Forget that the Congress used the same electorate as proof of its representative capacity..

Forget that that all presidents of the US right up till Woodrow Wilson were elected by a narrower electorate than that which existed in India at the time...


All I am objecting to is that according to Harimau ... some third rate knighted Musalman like Sir Sultan Muhammad Khan who was never elected to anything... is some how more representative than someone like Jinnah ... whose party won 87% of the Muslim electorate in 1946...


Even Gandhi was more honest than the blood clot here... Gandhi signed this statement after the elections of 1946:

``The Congress does not challenge but accepts that the Muslim League now is the authoritative representative of an overwhelming majority of the Muslims of India. As such and in accordance with democratic principles they alone have today an unquestionable right to represent the Muslims of India. ``


Meanwhile... Harimau sounds increasingly like a supporter of General Musharraf... according to Musharrafites... Benazir and Nawaz Sharif are not representative politicians... why? Because according to them the turnout in 2002 elections (ironically by the virtue of which Musharraf`s government stands and which is the basis of the controversial constitutional amendments like the two offices bills etc) was less than 30%. Harimau`s claim is on similar lines...

Re: # 136

So are you now claiming that a Madrasi Brahmin designed colour picture tubes for TV? Did he get the Nobel prize? How come no one has heard of him?

Is there no limit to your bigotry and hatred against the lower castes????

abey manto, we all agree that jinnah was THE star of the debating society AKA INC pre-gandhi .. before congress became a mass-movement.

From Brittanica...

``In 1910 some 135 elected Indian representatives took their seats as members of legislative councils throughout British India. The act of 1909 also increased the maximum additional membership of the Supreme Council from 16 (to which it had been raised by the Councils Act of 1892) to 60. In the provincial councils of Bombay, Bengal, and Madras, which had been created in 1861, the permissible total membership had been raised to 20 by the act of 1892, and this was increased in 1909 to 50, a majority of whom were to be nonofficials; the number of council members in other provinces was similarly increased.``

More information...

``Most ironic was his very first election in 1910, where Congressman Jinnah, who was to one day lead Muslim League to hilt against the Congress, defeated the Muslim Leaguer Rafiuddin Ahmad from Bombay to successfully enter into the legislative council.``


Just because the council had a large number unelected raj loyalists as appointees didn`t mean that everyone was one of them.

Also... the reason why Jinnah became a member of the Muslim League in 1913 ... and not earlier was precisely because till 1913 League was loyal to British rule... where as Jinnah had been fighting for self rule.

I am still surprised that what kind of warped mind believes that while Jinnah who was elected as Congress representative to the Council in 1910, 1912, 1914, 1916, 1918... and as an independent in 1924 and 1926... and a Muslim Leaguer 1934, 1937 and 1946 ... and whose Party won an unprecedented 87% of the Muslim electorate in the same election that supposedly confirmed Congress` representative status... is somehow not representative...

But loyalists, nawabs, mullahs, sirs, convenors of ``Majlis` and sectarian bodies who never won a single election are some how representative accordng to you.


Either you are a complete idiot... or you are vicious little freak. My vote is for the latter.

PS: It is one thing to disagree with someone... it is quite another to make inane arguments that don`t make any sense...

Harimau,

1. Oh so you actually think Jinnah was elected only in 1910? Jinnah was not just there in 1910... but was elected again and again... The elections didn`t happen in 1910 alone... the electorate was continuously expanded afterwards... The issue was not of Islamic law etc... (unless you are completely stupid I don`t see how you can argue that) ...

2. You think Jinnah was only elected on Congress Platform.... Just go and check how many elections he won and on what platform.

3. What electorate (universal adult franchise) makes someone the vice chancelor, acting governor under the British, spokesman of the Bohri Majlis, Minister of govt. of Nizam Hyderabad flana and dhamkana... that you`ve quoted yourself ? These people were representative Muslims according to you, even though the Muslims never voted for them.... Meanwhile you are abusing Jinnah who was in the history of the subcontinent the one man who had the most representative capacity vis a vis Muslims...


Here is an article I wrote on his legislative contributions to your country ... read and grow up.


As we celebrate M.A. Jinnah’s birth anniversay today, December 25, it behoves us to think deep and hard on his true legacy (also see earlier Jinnah-related ATP Posts: The Other Side of Mr. Jinnah; Watch Jinnah-The Movie; 1947 Video-1; 1947 Video-2; Aazadi Mubarak; Independence Day Greetings for India; Remembering 9.11.1948).

Those who criticize the current government for passing the Women’s Protection Bill would do well to remind themselves of the long and extremely effective legislative career of Pakistan’s founding father, Mr. Mahomed Ali Jinnah, as a member of the central legislative assembly of India.

Indeed the greatest tragedy of the subcontinent is that both India and Pakistan have chosen to selectively remember this great man, especially by choosing to ignore his politics prior to the Pakistan Movement. However if both India and Pakistan were to revisit Jinnah’s pre-1937 Indian nationalist career, we would find much to celebrate together, even if we continue to differ on his later role as the champion of Muslim separatism.

Jinnah’s legislative career spanned over close to four decades, out of which 37 years were spent serving the cause of India’s progress. Most ironic was his very first election in 1910, where Congressman Jinnah, who was to one day lead Muslim League to hilt against the Congress, defeated the Muslim Leaguer Rafiuddin Ahmad from Bombay to successfully enter into the legislative council. Who could imagine then that this young Congressman barrister would one day end up becoming Muslim League’s most famous leader.

Barely a month into the assembly, he took on Lord Minto by denouncing the “cruel and harsh treatment that is meted out to the Indians in Natal” in support of Mohandas Gandhi, who too was to become his principal foe in the future. When Lord Minto reprimanded him for using “harsh language”, he replied, “Well my Lord, I should feel inclined to use much harsher language.”

In 1912, Jinnah alienated many of his Muslim supporters by giving his wholehearted support to the Special Marriage Amendment Bill, which sought to provide mixed religion marriages legal protection. He argued that the bill would provide equality but he was opposed by many members on the grounds that the bill contravened the Koran. Undaunted Jinnah asked the law member who had opposed the bill if he “would deny that there is a certain class of educated and enlightened people who rightly think that a gravest injustice is done to them as long as liberty of conscience is held from them”.

Rubbishing the idea that Muslim sensibilities would be hurt, he asked: “Is this the first time in the history of legislation in this country that this Council has been called upon to override Musalman Law or modify it to suit the time? The Council has over ridden and modified the Musalman law in many respects.” It was the same year that he stood up to argue that universal elementary education ought to be “compulsory”. He declared unfettered by any opposition religious or otherwise:

“In no country has elementary education become universal without compulsion. Find the money; if necessary tax the people. But I shall be told that people are already taxed. I shall be told that we shall face great unpopularity… My answer is that we should do all this to improve the masses of this country to whom you owe a much greater duty than anyone else. My answer is that you should remove the reproach that is leveled against the British rule, that is, the neglect of elementary education. My answer is that it is the duty of every civilised government to educate masses, and if you have to face unpopularity, if you have to face certain amount of danger, face it boldly in the name of duty.”

Later defining self government, he spoke of a government for the people and by the people unfettered and unconditionally. Here too Jinnah was at his best, a secular liberal politician who fought for what he believed in. While he opposed forces of religious reaction and espoused the cause of freedom, he did not turn his back to the legitimate demands of his community and this manifested itself in form of the Wakf Bill, which was his great legislative triumph for the Muslims. But if the Muslims thought Jinnah had changed his ways, they were sorely mistaken when he supported the Child Marriages Restraint Bill which outlawed marriages of girls below the age of 16. When questioned, Jinnah declared that religion had nothing to do with it, but that this was a question of common sense.

At other times, he pushed forward an agenda that sought to drive the British into a corner. In February 1924, he introduced a legislation that called for the Government of India to buy its stores through “Rupee tenders” instead of Pound sterling which had proved costly for India and had blatantly favored the British. In introducing this measure, he recounted 75 different British imperial purchases that had inhibited India’s economic development. His resolution passed and has been held by many historians as the single most important event in India’s pre-partition history that had stimulated indigenous Economic growth and development. Opposing a British move to introduce passports as a necessary pre-condition to enter India, Jinnah declared that “all regulations that impose passports are the biggest nuisance and the sooner they are done away with the better.”

Speaking against the deportation of Bombay Chronicle Editor, B. G. Horniman he declared:

“I do maintain, and I have drunk deep at the fountain of constitutional law, that the liberty of a man is dearest thing in the law of any constitution and it should not be taken away in this fashion.”

On Indian soldiers fighting British wars, Jinnah and Gandhi clashed publicly. Gandhi wanted to use Home Rule League to recruit soldiers for the British Empire, something which Jinnah found abhorrent and opposed. Jinnah believed that as long as Indians were not allowed to become officers or India remained in subjection, they could not be asked to fight for the empire. Jinnah said:

“We cannot ask young men to fight for principles, the application of which is denied to their own country. A subject race cannot fight for others with the heart and energy that a free race can fight with for the freedom of itself and others. If India has to make great sacrifices in the defence of the Empire, it must be as a partner in the Empire and not as its dependency. Let her feel that she is fighting for her own freedom as well as the freedom of a commonwealth of free nations under the British crown and then she will strain to stand by England to the last.”

Jinnah’s legislative career prior to his taking up the Muslim separatist case was marked by secular Indian nationalism and his desire to see India as a great and free nation of the world, inspired by constitutionalism and democracy. Jinnah stood for universal education, women’s rights, equality of Indians irrespective of religion, caste, creed or gender and against obscurantism of all forms. It is this part of his career that can not only help to bridge the gap of distrust between Pakistan and India, but can also inspire liberals in the nation that he founded to work for a modern, democratic and pluralistic Pakistan in line with Jinnah’s ideas of constitutionalism and democracy.

I made a sweeping comment abt Sindhis that they are all fraudsters. Like all groups they are also a mix of good & bad people. Some prominent public figures among Sindhis I admire are:

Govind Nihalani,
Sunil Khilnani,
Ram Jethmalani.


Hope Einsteinwallah wud be happier now. Sorry man, if my comment had hurt u.

Ref masanamuthu #118

[Mr. abcd,

You said this

``..There`s an interesting book on this topic - Guns, Germs and Steel - that won the Pulitzer prize - that attempts to answer questions about why some societies have succeeded better than others. ``

I quoted this from the book,

``There is an explicit statement in page 250, `` Religions vary greatly in their relation to technological innovation: some branches of Judaism and Christianity are claimed to be especially compatible with it, while some branches of Islam, Hinduism and Brahmanism may be especially incompatible with it.``

The book that you asked us to read said stuff explicitly about the incompatibility of Brahminism with technological innovation.. When you said that ``the interesting book talks about why some societies have succeeded better than others``, you failed to realise that there is another damning ``explicit`` statement in the book that ridicules ``Brahminism``..]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism:

{Ancient India

The earliest traces of a counter-intuitive idea that it is the Earth that is actually moving and the Sun that is at the centre of the solar system (hence the concept of heliocentrism) is found in several Vedic Sanskrit texts written in ancient India.[1][2] Yajnavalkya (c. 9th–8th century BC) recognized that the Earth is spherical and believed that the Sun was ``the centre of the spheres`` as described in the Vedas at the time. In his astronomical text Shatapatha Brahmana (8.7.3.10), he states:

``The sun strings these worlds - the earth, the planets, the atmosphere - to himself on a thread.``[3]

He recognized that the Sun was much larger than the Earth, which would have influenced this early heliocentric concept. He also accurately measured the relative distances of the Sun and the Moon from the Earth as 108 times the diameters of these heavenly bodies, close to the modern measurements of 107.6 for the Sun and 110.6 for the Moon. He also described an accurate solar calendar in the Shatapatha Brahmana.[4]

The Aitareya Brahmana (2.7) (c. 9th–8th century BC) also states:

``The Sun never sets nor rises. When people think the sun is setting, it is not so; they are mistaken. It only changes about after reaching the end of the day and makes night below and day to what is on the other side.``[2][5]

Some interpret this to mean that the Sun is stationary, hence the Earth is moving around it,[2] though others are less clear about the meanings of the terms.[5] This would be elaborated in a later commentary Vishnu Purana (2.8) (c. 1st century BC), which states:

``The sun is stationed for all time, in the middle of the day. [...] Of the sun, which is always in one and the same place, there is neither setting nor rising.``[6] }

{Medieval India

The Indian astronomer-mathematician Aryabhata (476–550), in his magnum opus Aryabhatiya, propounded a heliocentric model in which the Earth was taken to be spinning on its axis and the periods of the planets were given with respect to a stationary Sun. He was also the first to discover that the light from the Moon and the planets was reflected from the Sun, and that the planets follow an elliptical orbit around the Sun, and thus propounded an eccentric elliptical model of the planets, on which he accurately calculated many astronomical constants, such as the times of the solar and lunar eclipses, and the instantaneous motion of the Moon (expressed as a differential equation).[1][4][7][8]

Bhaskara (1114–1185) expanded on Aryabhata`s heliocentric model in his astronomical treatise Siddhanta-Shiromani, where he mentioned the law of gravity, discovered that the planets don`t orbit the Sun at a uniform velocity, and accurately calculated many astronomical constants based on this model, such as the solar and lunar eclipses, and the velocities and instantaneous motions of the planets.[4] Arabic translations of Aryabhata`s Aryabhatiya were available from the 8th century, while Latin translations were available from the 13th century, before Copernicus had written De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, so it is possible that Aryabhata`s work had an influence on Copernicus` ideas.}

Compare that to Christianity.

{Religious disputes over heliocentrism

Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Chronicles 16:30 state that ``the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved.`` Psalm 104:5 says, ``[the LORD] set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.`` Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that ``the sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.``

Galileo defended heliocentrism, and claimed it was not contrary to those Scripture passages. He took Augustine`s position on Scripture: not to take every passage literally, particularly when the scripture in question is a book of poetry and songs, not a book of instructions or history. The writers of the Scripture wrote from the perspective of the terrestrial world, and from that vantage point the sun does rise and set. In fact, it is the earth`s rotation which gives the impression of the sun in motion across the sky.

As early as the time of Aristarchus, the heliocentric idea was denounced as being against religion in Europe. The issue did not assume any importance, however, for nearly 2,000 years.

Nicolaus Copernicus published the definitive statement of his system in De Revolutionibus in 1543. Copernicus began to write it in 1506 and finished it in 1530, but did not publish it until the year of his death. Although he was in good standing with the Church and had dedicated the book to Pope Paul III, the published form contained an unsigned preface by Osiander stating that the system was a pure mathematical device and was not supposed to represent reality. Possibly because of that preface, the work of Copernicus inspired very little debate on whether it might be heretical during the next 60 years.

There was an early suggestion among Dominicans that the teaching should be banned, but nothing came of it at the time. Some Protestants, however, voiced strong opinions during the 16th century. Martin Luther once said:

``There is talk of a new astrologer who wants to prove that the earth moves and goes around instead of the sky, the sun, the moon, just as if somebody were moving in a carriage or ship might hold that he was sitting still and at rest while the earth and the trees walked and moved. But that is how things are nowadays: when a man wishes to be clever he must . . . invent something special, and the way he does it must needs be the best! The fool wants to turn the whole art of astronomy upside-down. However, as Holy Scripture tells us, so did Joshua bid the sun to stand still and not the earth.``

Over time, however, the Catholic Church began to become more adamant about protecting the geocentric view. Pope Urban VIII, who had approved the idea of Galileo`s publishing a work on the two theories of the world, became hostile to Galileo. Over time, the Catholic Church became the primary opposition to the Heliocentric view.

The favored system had been that of Ptolemy, in which the Earth was the center of the universe and all celestial bodies orbited it. A geocentric compromise was available in the Tychonic system, in which the Sun orbited the Earth, while the planets orbited the Sun as in the Copernican model. The Jesuit astronomers in Rome were at first unreceptive to Tycho`s system; the most prominent, Clavius, commented that Tycho was ``confusing all of astronomy, because he wants to have Mars lower than the Sun.`` (Fantoli, 2003, p. 109) But as the controversy progressed and the Church took a harder line toward Copernican ideas after 1616, the Jesuits moved toward Tycho`s teachings; after 1633, the use of this system was almost mandatory. For advancing heliocentric theory Galileo was put under house arrest for the last several years of his life.}

Yep, 2500 years after the Shatapatha Brahmana of Yajnavalkya, the Catholic Church still refused to accept the heliocentric theory.

Yajnavalkya, Aryabhatta and Bhaskara were most certainly NOT one of you SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC momofukus.

Ref okhla99 #80

[HOWEVER, dear intelligent Harimau,
the primary colours are Red, BLUE & Yellow as any SC/ST/OBC child will tell you.]

Only a SC/ST/BC/OBC/MBC child or adult of any age will claim Red, Blue and YELLOW to be the primary colors.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_colors:

{The additive primaries are red, green, and blue.}

I challenge you or any of the SC/ST/BC/OBC/MBC momofukus to design a color TV picture tube with red, green and yellow phosphors. That fraud Soyamotherf@$*ingsauce has slinked away with his tail between his legs when confronted with this issue but you seem to be braver than him.

Ref masanamuthu #76

[ROFL.. our (BC/MBC/SC/ST) records have been lost too.. we invented the whole concept of mathematics and our records are lost in oral translation..

.........

you are just throwing a few names in a list of thousands over thousands of years.]

Since you are incapable of even Googling for information, here is something for you. From http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch7.html:

{There is wide ranging debate as to when the decimal place value system was developed, but there is significant evidence that an early system was in use by the inhabitants of the Indus valley by 3000 BC. Excavations at both Harappa and Mohenjo Daro have supported this theory. At this time however a `complete` place value system had not yet been developed and along with symbols for the numbers one through nine, there were also symbols for 10, 20, 100 and so on.

The formation of the numeral forms as we know them now has taken several thousand years, and for quite some time in India there were several different forms. These included Kharosthi and Brahmi numerals, the latter were refined into the Gwalior numerals, which are notably similar to those in use today (see Figure 7.1). Study of the Brahmi numerals has also lent weight to claims that decimal numeration was in use by the Indus civilisation as correlations have been noted between the Indus and Brahmi scripts.

It is uncertain how much longer it took for zero to be invented but there is little doubt that such a symbol was in existence by 500 BC, if not in widespread use. Evidence can be found in the work of the famous Indian grammarian Panini (5th or 6th century BC) and later the work of Pingala a scholar who wrote a work, Chhandas-Sutra (c. 200 BC). The first documented evidence of the use of zero for mathematical purposes is not until around 2nd century AD (in the Bakhshali manuscript). The first recorded `non-mathematical` use of zero dates even later, around 680 AD, the number 605 was found on a Khmer inscription in Cambodia. Despite this it seems certain that a symbol was in use prior to that time. B Datta and A Singh discuss the likelihood that the decimal place value system, including zero had been `perfected` by 100 BC or earlier. Although there is no concrete evidence to support their claims, they are established on the very solid basis that new number systems take 800 to 1000 years to become `commonly` used, which the Indian system had done by the 9th century AD.}

By the way, Panini`s grammar of the Sanskrit language was the first and only grammar to describe a language, any language, with mathematical precision. And that led 2,500 years later to the Backus-Naur Form for the formal definition of computer languages. About which you know absolutely nothing.

Panini was NOT an SC/ST/BC/OBC/MBC.

Some more on the decimal system:

{Having become firmly established in academic circles in India by the 6th century, the decimal place value system spread across the world. Initially to China and Alexandria, then to the Arab empire where it became the system of choice of the scholars in Baghdad by the 8th century.

Arabic scholars during this time improved the system by introducing decimal fractions. The system also spread into Spain, as has been previously discussed southern Spain was under Arabic rule into the 12th century. It took much longer for the system to be accepted in mainland Europe, but eventually by the 16th century it was widely used. That said, both prejudice and suspicion continued to be widespread, while orthodoxy also played its part in the continued use of Roman numerals. The last significant case of an attempt to abolish the Indian decimal place value system was in Sweden in the early 18th century.

This is clearly a very brief overview of the phenomenal development of the decimal place value system, without which it is accepted `higher mathematics` would not be possible. It is impossible for me to do justice to its importance in such few words, so I will conclude with a quote from G Halstead who commented:

...The importance of the creation of the zero mark can never be exaggerated. This giving to airy nothing, not merely a local habituation and a name, a picture, a symbol but helpful power, is the characteristic of the Hindu race from whence it sprang. No single mathematical creation has been more potent for the general on go of intelligence and power.}

[Atleast the Ku-Klu-Klan (white supremacists) have a point. All the innovations / inventions that have benefitted the human society were developed by White predominantly Christian men.. But these ``caste supremacists`` have just ``tall claims`` to back them up..]

Refer to that part about {....both prejudice and suspicion continued to be widespread, while orthodoxy also played its part in the continued use of Roman numerals. The last significant case of an attempt to abolish the Indian decimal place value system was in Sweden in the early 18th century.}

And the great White legislators of Indiana attempted to pass a law within the last 150 years declaring the value of Pi to be 3 so that it could be in accordance with the Bible.

You are one brain-dead mofukka.

After claiming that the OBCs are actually aceing the exams and beating the Upper Castes in performance in the University examinations, another great stride in the march of the OBCs has been taken with the ABOLITION of the Common Entrance Test for professional education in Tamil Nadu.

What next? Grant of a BE or MBBS along with a SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC certificate by the local Tahsildar by-passing the entire university/college system? Oops, that wouldn`t happen since the ``Kazhagak Kanmanigals`` (literally, ``darlings of the party``; this is the term of endearment used to refer to followers of Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister the Fund of Compassion) run a vast number of professional colleges in Tamil Nadu as a profitable enterprise. Perhaps the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC would just pay the tuition at the local college and present the receipt for getting their BE or MBBS.

Ref Mantolives #131

[Mahomed Ali Jinnah was the elected member of the Central Legislature from 1910-1945... i.e. 35 years. The number of years Gandhi was elected as the district sweeper in Bombay : ZERO. Then In 194687% of the Muslim electorate voted for Jinnah and rejected the assorted variety of British Knights and Mullah freaks that you quote above.]

Yasser, dear boy, exactly what was the electorate that elected Jinnahbhai? Was it based on universal adult franchise? Or was Islamic law (and British law) used to exclude women (you know, our wife Ayesha belongs to that particular subspecies) from voting?

As to Jinnah`s election/appointment to the Imperial Legislative Council, here is some info:

[On January 25, 1910, Jinnah became a member on the sixty-member Imperial Legislative Council. The council had no real power or authority, and included a large number of un-elected pro-Raj loyalists and Europeans.]

Looks like the Imperial Legislative Council was a club where Jinnah-bhai could enjoy a whiskey-and-soda and smoke his cigar while being pally-pally with the @rse-lickers of the British Crown.

Also, Jinnah-bhai was a member of the Indian National Congress at that time and became a member of the Muslim League only in 1913.

[I wish however that Jinnah had sought election as a dog catcher instead. That way he would have dealt with Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi much better...]

Jinnah-bhai was a failure in everything he did.... except in chasing ambulances. So don`t pin your hopes on him. Look at that abortion of a nation called Pakistan.... hey, THAT is a great title for a movie about Pakistan, don`t you think?

In #129 Haramimau writes :
<<< And that is far more important than water for the farmers of the Cauvery delta or Real Social Justice. >>>


HA HA HA!!!!!!! Haramimau talks of social justice. LOL !!! LOL!!! ROFL!!!!!

The same Haramimau who had earlier (refer #23) said

<<< Harimau skewers the lower castes like you guys might skewer meat for sheesh-kebabs.

Harimau walks tall, knowing full well that just by birth alone he is superior to 95% of Indians and 100% of non-Indians. That kind of self-confidence is not easy to come by.

Harimau pities mlecchas like you who have the misfortune to be born into a strange cult and who can have no exit strategy short of death. In fact, he pities mlecchas more than he pities the lower castes who at least have reservations going for them.

When I go to a roadside temple near my home for a special puja, I deliberately wear a dhoti but no upper garments. You should see what happens: the sight of the sacred thread around my torso parts the crowd who stand a respectful foot away from me so that I won`t be defiled by their touch. This in the city of Chennai after 75 years of anti-Brahmin propaganda. Hey, I like that.

The Communist minister Chakraborty in West Bengal, defending his attendance at a religious ceremony, said that he is seen as a brahmin first, a Bengali next and a Communist last.

Nope, we don`t squirm. We walk with our heads held high. Squirming is for low-lifes, such as worms on a hook. >>>


Harimau appears to continuously shift stands.

How much more hypocrisy can this idot display ????

Harimau,

What about the hypocrisy of dishonest crooks like yourself? Who is going to write an article about that.... Why is it that you always end up claiming something that blows up in your face?

Some how I missed your gem on my board:

{#339 by harimau on April 8, 2007 7:09am PT
Ref ballukhan #322

You appended a long letter with the following signatures:

[Dr. Zakir Hussain
(Vice Chancellor Aligarh University)
Sir Sultan Ahmed
(Former Member of Governor General`s Executive Council)
Sir Mohd. Ahmed Syed Khan
(Nawab of Chhatari, former acting
Governor of United Provinces and
Prime Minister of Hyderabad)
Sir Mohd. Usman
(Former member of Governor
General`s Executive council and
acting Governor of Madras)
Sir Iqbal Ahmed
(Former Chief Justice of Allahabad High Court)
Sir Fazal Rahimtoola
(Former Sheriff of Bombay)
Maulana Hafz-ur-Rehman M.P.
Col. B.H. Zaidi M.P.
Nawab Zain Yar Jung
(Minister Gcvernment of Hyderabad)
A.K. Kawaja
(Former President of Muslim Majlis)
T.M. Zarif
(General Secretary West Bengal Bohra Community)]

If Jinnahbhai had signed any letter, he would have had to say:

Mohammad Ali Jinnah
Unable to be elected Dogcatcher in Bombay Municipal Corporation
[Reply to interact #339] }}


Mahomed Ali Jinnah was the elected member of the Central Legislature from 1910-1945... i.e. 35 years. The number of years Gandhi was elected as the district sweeper in Bombay : ZERO. Then In 194687% of the Muslim electorate voted for Jinnah and rejected the assorted variety of British Knights and Mullah freaks that you quote above.

I wish however that Jinnah had sought election as a dog catcher instead. That way he would have dealt with Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi much better...

Ref Folio #127

[#126 by einsteinwallah on April 14, 2007 4:07pm PT

////////They help only their kinsmen.///////

Just curious. Do u help ur neighbour`s kinsmen?]

He might.... but only if they belong to his caste.

Ref einsteinwallah #126

[South Indians are worst discriminators in India. They help only their kinsmen. They discriminate against North Indians.]

Actually, the reservations for the Brain-Dead was meant to recognize the mental deficiency of the folks from the Gangetic Plains. The Bhaiyyas of Bihar and UP are too stupid to understand even that!

[They cheat in competitive exams.]

Recently, the police have started using sniffer dogs in Bihar to detect students taking in ``bits`` into the exam halls. The students protested that this was a new and unknown tactic against which they were insufficiently prepared and as such it is unfair to them.

Bihar University and Magadh University MBBS degrees have the unique distinction of being de-recognized by the Indian Medical Council back in the early 1970s. And of course, in the last decade, Lalloo Prasad Yadav`s daughter scored the First Rank in the MBBS exams conducted by Bihar University. Compared to this, any cheating in South India is minimal.

By the way, a Standard X exam question paper was stolen in one small town in Tamil Nadu and that exam was immediately cancelled and a new question paper was printed and rushed to all exam centers. Just FYI that even in Masanamuthu-land, publicity brings about corrective action.

[Entire South India should be handed over back to British. That is only way they can be civilized.]

Now, you are echoing what Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister Karunanidhi and his cohorts demanded back in the 1940s. They said that the British should not leave India. Welcome to the company of Masanamuthus!

The crowd of Masanamuthus from India, as usual, has shown its inability to recognize a clue even when it is handed to them on a silver platter with watercress around it.

No one is willing to talk about the Indian politician`s penchant for beating up on the Judiciary but are willing to tell Pakistanis how to treat their Justices nicely!

Recently, Manmohan Singh the Neutered -- for the clueless among you, this means, his b@lls have been surgically removed and put out in the sun to be dried -- mewled about the overreaching of the Indian judiciary and wanted the judges to curb their ``judicial activism``. To which, the Chief Justice politely replied that it was the duty of the Justices to rule on the validity of laws and that the government should expect some conflicts wit the judiciary in this process.

The Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu suffer from Attention Deficit and Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and should be put on Ritalin. They have completely forgotten that just about a month before this particular strike was called by Karunanidhi, the tribunal hearing the dispute over the sharing of the waters of the River Cauvery announced its verdict. Farmers of Tamil Nadu were unhappy about getting less water than they had asked for and some politicians demanded a statewide strike to show Tamil Nadu`s displeasure. Karunanidhi at that time said that a strike would be pointless. All of a sudden, a month later, a strike seems to have struck Karunanidhi as the way to point out the intolerable injustice of recognizing the reality that having a brain is essential in the ``knowledge economy`` of the future about which his nephew Dayanidhi Maran, Central Minister for IT, harangues the public.

Consider that one of the main objections of the Supreme Court to the OBC quotas is the refusal of the government to remove the ``creamy layer`` from being able to apply for the quota seats. In Cabinet meetings following the Supreme Court`s interim ruling, the Law Minister suggested that the government should give way on this issue and agree to ban the ``creamy layer`` from being able to obtain the quota seats. Lo and behold, those professing to have the interests of the Oppressed, the Poor, the People in Chains, the Proletariat at all times in their heart, namely the Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist), initially protested and then reluctantly agreed on the condition that if enough of the Proletariat were not available to fill the quotas, then the rest of quota should be filled with the creamy layer rather than being made available for the general category.

But it is Karunanidhi whose party objected flat out and absolutely refused to consider the possibility of removing the creamy layer from the quota queue. The Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu are incapable of digesting what this means as they are all busy celebrating the 50th Year in Politics of Karunanidhi. And that is far more important than water for the farmers of the Cauvery delta or Real Social Justice.

#126 by einsteinwallah on April 14, 2007 4:07pm PT

////////They help only their kinsmen.///////

Just curious. Do u help ur neighbour`s kinsmen?

South Indians are worst discriminators in India. They help only their kinsmen. They discriminate against North Indians. They cheat in competitive exams. Entire South India should be handed over back to British. That is only way they can be civilized.

Jang,

Why the British needed truckloads of Brahmins clerks during WWII?

Tehsildar, Munsif (kinda town-clerks) & Zilla Collector were the fav jobs of the Brahmins under British. The need of manpower was there even b4 WWII. These jobs are very powerful at grassroots level. The officials are responsible for collecting land-cess, sign the land records, sign ownerships dox, involved in sale and transfer of lands. Land revenue was the bulk of British govt`s revenue. As u know primary sector was contributing to over 85% of the GDP.

As 4 sucking up, it`s implied that these revenue officials were loyal to the point of being subservient. They dont have a choice. The present day style of letter writing where u find:

1. Yours Obediently,
2. Yours Faithfully,
3. Yours Sincerely

were all originated in those days of servitude. It`s mostly the No.1 kinda wording that`s used in those days. Even worse kinda wording is `forever faithfull, your obedient servant` etc were the words used in official correspondence. I am sorry to say the same kinds language survives in the present day official correspondence also but the saving grace is we use 2 & 3 variety, mostly not 1.

#121 the largest hiring of brahmins in beurocracy actually happened during the WWII times. the british war effort needed babus by the boatloads. brahmins filled that need, and followed up by filling positions in post-independence beurocracy of public as well the the private sector..it was mostly need based not so much out of sucking up. overall, brahmin as a community has never benefited unlike some other more prominent like the muslims (police afsars of the raj), parsees, and small communities like pathare-prabhu (which are termed OBC) out of bombay. overall brahmins as a community never gathered riches.

KC,

Brahminism is not the sole preoccupation of Brahmins. You can see Mulayam`s casteism as another form of Brahminism. Brahminism is more like the word Sanskritisation (courtesy MN Srinivas). It`s just a name with Brahmin word being part of it. The people of generic castes dont intermarry/dine but still they prefer to blame somebody else. Dont we know that people of all castes carry their caste names? Was it not promoting the caste system? As u said nobody is addressing this issue. Nobody wud bcoz nobody thinks abt India as to how she`d shape-up 4/in the next 30-40 years. No visionaries!

We dont have any leader nowadays. Sonia is a reader, Manmohan - though I respect him - is more of a bureaucrat than a PM. I dont blame him for he spent all his career life as a civil servant. The pack of BJP is the pack of wolves. Left..pl dont ask me......they are demented. Who inspires us in India? None, literally. It`s not rhetoric. Plain facts.

Folio

We have been lucky that many Brahmins (Wasn`t Nehru one?) themselves have actively helped delegitimate the ideology of Brahminism. After a brief, early attempt by Gandhi (himself no Brahmin), nobody of consequence has attempted to keep caste ideologically alive by constantly re-interpreting for ever TRUER forms and versions of casteism (nor of Brahminism).

On the other hand, because of thousands of years of training (and who knows, may be selective intermarriage as well) many Brahmin communities (South Indians, in particular) have also become, on average, very intelligent, and very capable in certain fields. The force of democratization, along with the push for real `positive discrimination` has indeed hit these very capable, intelligent communities quite hard.

There is no harm in recognizing both these apparently contradictory phenomena. That will help us resolve those contradictions, and move on into the future, having learnt from the past.

The Romans bottled the imp (clergy+their religion) in Vatican. Then only Romans had the freedom to chart their own future else the whole state was servning the agenda of the clergy. Pl look at Portugal or Spain (Spain of course is a better country now). Do we have any unis of international importance in those countries? None. Did they have any contributions to the modern world. Almost zero.

It`s the Calvinism in Europe that allowed the religious Christians to come out the shackles of religion vis-a-vis commerce. On the other extreme we have clergy in England, northern Europe producing mathematical theorems. Even Christian madrasas i.e Oxford and Cambridge produced path-breaking inventions in the field of science and mathematics. Ultimately those madrasas unshackled themselves as religious schools (I am open 4 correction here).

When it comes to Brahmins esp south Indian variety, they sucked-up to the British (san a FEW nationalists) 4 jobs or otherwise. I heard that Brahmins played even skin colour card to endear themselves to the British.

P.S: I am not taking rabid ant-Brahmin stand here is bcoz I was helped at several stages in life by some persons who happened to be Brahmins. I learnt from those experiences & I helped some others irrespective of their backgrounds. The bottomline is `goodness promotes goodness`. I have childhood frens who`re Brahmins. None of them was a casteist.

Again coming back to Brahminsim: I stand by the assertion that Brahmins alone are not the champions of Bahmnism. Whoever props up castes/caste system even though they are Muslims are the champions of Brhaminism.

Sikhism was supposed to be casteless but we have many castes or para-castes among Sikhs (Jat, Ramgarhia, mazhabi Sikhs etc) as well.

AS usual we have some KKK namoonas here.

A poser 4 them. Who is a Brahmin?

Hypocrite Krishna & Haramimau,

Your true colurs (primary??) have already been exposed in # 23 above.

<<< #206 Pakistan`s Afghan Policy on October 27, 2006
Ref GT #267

[Your brother-in-religion, Harimau, is still squirming under the fact that low castes have become dominant under the rubric of Indian democracy. Are you squirming too?]

Harimau has no reason to squirm. The lower castes will not be allowed to come out of their poverty by our politicians who depend on them for votes. So they will be kept in perpetual ignorance while a few seats in professional education and a few government jobs are thrown their way, much like you throw grains to chickens.

Harimau skewers the lower castes like you guys might skewer meat for sheesh-kebabs.

Harimau walks tall, knowing full well that just by birth alone he is superior to 95% of Indians and 100% of non-Indians. That kind of self-confidence is not easy to come by.

Harimau pities mlecchas like you who have the misfortune to be born into a strange cult and who can have no exit strategy short of death. In fact, he pities mlecchas more than he pities the lower castes who at least have reservations going for them.

When I go to a roadside temple near my home for a special puja, I deliberately wear a dhoti but no upper garments. You should see what happens: the sight of the sacred thread around my torso parts the crowd who stand a respectful foot away from me so that I won`t be defiled by their touch. This in the city of Chennai after 75 years of anti-Brahmin propaganda. Hey, I like that.

The Communist minister Chakraborty in West Bengal, defending his attendance at a religious ceremony, said that he is seen as a brahmin first, a Bengali next and a Communist last.

Nope, we don`t squirm. We walk with our heads held high. Squirming is for low-lifes, such as worms on a hook. >>>

#118 by masanamuthu


[The book that you asked us to read said stuff explicitly about the incompatibility of Brahminism with technological innovation..]

That may very well be, but I did not refer to that as a reference for the ``technological innovations`` of Brahmins. In fact, I don`t think I ever used the words ``Brahmins`` and ``technological innovations`` in the same sentence.


[When you said that ``the interesting book talks about why some societies have succeeded better than others``, you failed to realise that there is another damning ``explicit`` statement in the book that ridicules ``Brahminism``.. ]

To begin with, according to your quote, the book talks about some sects of Brahminism which this guy feels may be incompatible with technological progress. Secondly, this guy is an anthropologist, with an interesting theory that tries to explain the varying degrees of achievements of societies. He is not an expert on ``Brahminism``, whatever that means.

It seems to me that in people like you, the inferiority complex runs very deep. Why are you so worked up about ``Brahminism``? Let`s suppose you are right that Brahmins are the worst people imaginable, and complete idiots to boot, with no significant achievements to speak of. Tell me, does that explain away why YOUR ancestors never achieved anything in the way of sciences and arts BEFORE any of these evil Brahmins set foot on your lands? And even AFTER they set foot on your lands, CAN YOU EXPLAIN why your ancestors were not working on their little mathematical formulae in their huts? In the intervals between the spells when armed Brahmin mobs used to come and terrorize them in their huts?

I think some introspection (meaning thinking about yourselves, NOT Brahmins) is in order. Trying to belittle Brahmins or their achievements is NOT going to increase the achievements of your people. Just like belittling the ``white man`` is not going to increase the achievements of blacks in America, in Africa, in Australia, or anywhere else.

Mr. abcd,

You said this

``..There`s an interesting book on this topic - Guns, Germs and Steel - that won the Pulitzer prize - that attempts to answer questions about why some societies have succeeded better than others. ``

I quoted this from the book,

``There is an explicit statement in page 250, `` Religions vary greatly in their relation to technological innovation: some branches of Judaism and Christianity are claimed to be especially compatible with it, while some branches of Islam, Hinduism and Brahmanism may be especially incompatible with it.``

The book that you asked us to read said stuff explicitly about the incompatibility of Brahminism with technological innovation.. When you said that ``the interesting book talks about why some societies have succeeded better than others``, you failed to realise that there is another damning ``explicit`` statement in the book that ridicules ``Brahminism``..

It is futile to convince ``Caste supremacists`` / ``Ku Klux clan`` members.. People should study cases like Harimau as specimens of such ideology..

#116 allrighty then....so non-brahmins are much worse than brahmins! bravo. so whats with all these arguments?

#115 good shyte..so brahmins are no worse or better than any other community! bravo. so whats with the ahamkar?

#113 by jang

[krishna yar, there is documented shyte that brahmins wrote paens to everyone from khiljis, lodhis, bahamanis and anyone who would grant income from 5 villages towards upkeep of the ``temple``. ]

Sure. There are self-serving types in every community - why would brahmins be an exception? But this does not mean that EVERY or even THE MAJORITY of brahmins were going around writing paens. And EVEN THAT is a whole lot better than converting to your oppressors` religion and then turning on your erstwhile fellow hindus and wanting to convert/kill them like most of the Muslims in the Indian subcontinent.


[ ask the dude who does oooom keshavay namah, madhavaya namah govindaya namah, he wont know the difference between sulabha sutra and the nada of his langot. ]

This ALSO means nothing. Most Catholics don`t understand the bible in their original language, most Muslims don`t understand the Koran in its original Arabic. The reason Brahmins are far better than either of them is they do not have to attend Church/Mosque services on schedule or read their holy books ad nauseum. The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Brahmins don`t even read their religious books, period. Of the few that still practice their priestly profession, some understand Sanskrit, some don`t.

No need for you to make a federal case out of that.


[otherwise i think we are in agreement, that brahmins although educated in shastras and puranas were ignorant about simple things like plumbing .. they knew the injuctions against cooking during menses in details but knew nothing about delivering calves and therefore ``oursourced`` it. in short, they were idiot-savants, had little knowledge of the world they lived in.. eseentially they lived in cuckooland dominated by panchagavya. ]

Einstein was ignorant of ``simple things like plumbing``, too. Doesn`t make him an ``idot-savant``, now, does it?

What kind of logic is this?


[its it absurd for you to state that brahmins were not warriors....birbal (who died in battle), peshvas, rani laxmibai and last but not the least mangal pande were all brahmins. ]

The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of Brahmins were not warriors by profession. From the names you mentioned, you are contradicting your own logic that Brahmins cannot do anything useful other than repeat the sulabha sutras. The names you mentioned were of Brahmins who were all exceptional and couragious warriors.

U missed Pushyamitra Sunga, Parasurama.......

Tell me why the north Indian saadhus prefer to add Maharaj to their names, Jangy?

krishna yar, there is documented shyte that brahmins wrote paens to everyone from khiljis, lodhis, bahamanis and anyone who would grant income from 5 villages towards upkeep of the ``temple``. why duck from that..satyameva jayate no? regarding sulabha shastra i know my brahmins..nooone knows it...again pls..remember satyameva jayate, ask the dude who does oooom keshavay namah, madhavaya namah govindaya namah, he wont know the difference between sulabha sutra and the nada of his langot.

otherwise i think we are in agreement, that brahmins although educated in shastras and puranas were ignorant about simple things like plumbing .. they knew the injuctions against cooking during menses in details but knew nothing about delivering calves and therefore ``oursourced`` it. in short, they were idiot-savants, had little knowledge of the world they lived in.. eseentially they lived in cuckooland dominated by panchagavya.

its it absurd for you to state that brahmins were not warriors....birbal (who died in battle), peshvas, rani laxmibai and last but not the least mangal pande were all brahmins.

#97 by bbabu

[There are a few groups like Askenazi Jews who do have a higher genetic component for intellectual and business success. ]

So since are you saying that Askenazi Jews are genetically superior to others, you believe in the theory that some races are genetically superior to others.

Hmmm.... How about Brahmins then? Could they also be genetically superior to others?

#89 by jang

[ none of them knew anything about the famed sulabha sutra of apastambha....]

How did this piece of information reach your so-called brain? Considering the fact that the first time you heard of sulabha sutras was a couple of days ago?

[or method of delivering a baby based on susrutas writing..heck none of them could deliver a calve of our revered dear gau-mata, they needed to call the kurmi to do that job]

Yes. That kind of job was to be outsourced to the likes of your forefathers.


[ they needed the western education and light to set them free and suddenly they talk of merit. ]

Set them free from what, bonehead?

#87 by Folio

[Jang,

That`s too cruel on ur part. ]


Jang being ``cruel`` to brahmins is like the Islamists on welfare in UK being ``cruel`` to Blair.

I`m sure Blair is begging them not to be ``cruel`` to him. :-)

#86 by stuka

[Actually merit is over-rated. If it was a merit-based workd, I would not have the luxury of browsing the web during work hours and getting paid for it. ]


If it was a merit-based world, you would not have a job to begin with.

#83 by jang

[#82 its only among madrassis you have brahmin and non-brahmin names...]

Wrong again, dickhead. There are Brahmin and non-Brahmin names in every part of India.


[anyhoo..for all the fluffing of the sacred thread, if you look at the history of last several centuries, brahmins have utterly failed the nation of bharat, considering they were at the top of the social-hierachy and therefore had the bully-pulpit.
- they capitulated to the invading hordes readily.... ]

Brahmins were in the teaching profession, shithead. It is your grandfathers who were the indentured laborers in the armies that failed against the pedophile-philic hordes.



[- they added nothing in the ``hard sciences`` and infact even lost important things like old mathematical works....]

It is true that Hindu religion and learning were suppressed by the pedophile-worshippers, but that it only because your grandfathers and grandmothers aided and abetted them.


[until the westerners came around and started exploring. all they did was regurgitate the shastras and the puranas ad-nauseum. ]

And what did the westerners do after they were done exploring, numbnuts? Tell the Brahmins what they were already ``regurgitating`` ``ad-nauseum``?


[- they contributed nothing to engineering of canals, architecture, masonary, agriculture, animal husbandary and other important human endevours which improve life-style instead talked about world being maya, so give me some alms. ]

We Brahmins usually leave things like cutting canals, animal husbandry, masonry etc. to your types, so that it improves our, the Brahmins`, life styles. :)


[- they expressly retarded naval and other explorations by figuring out injuctions from shastras about crosing of the oceans. nooone dared cross the ocean (and come back) to face a cleansing gau-mutra shower. ]

So are you saying your forefathers were cowards on top of being brain-dead? That`s a good excuse for not doing anything, and not having any achievements. :)


[so i think they should shut-up about achievements..sorry, if aryabhatta wrote some postulates, that does not count..its like jeemax harping about some old kaliph. what matters is brahmins DID NOT propagate that knowledge to do anything useful..]

There is a difference between pure mathematics and applied mathematics, shithead. 90% of the material in the doctoral and post-doctoral research in pure mathematics going on in universities around the world today will not be applied to anything useful anytime soon.


[in short, large percentage of brahmins were obsessed by this kinda shyte, leaving the society to dogs.]

It is true that we Brahmins were into the teaching and priestly professions, and therefore left the running of the society to people like your great-great-grandparents, but I did not want to characterize them as ``dogs``. But hey, it`s a free country. If you want to call your grandparents ``dogs``, who am I to prevent you from speaking the truth out loud? :)

[so, while brahminical character is (scholarship, cleanliness, dispassionate apporach etc) is honorable, brahmins as a group deserve no special respect IMO... for them to DEMAND it is really amusing. ]

Exactly WHERE did Brahmins DEMAND special respect, eh, dalit-nutcase? And if they indeed did DEMAND it, why were your ancestors cowardly enough to bow to it? I`ll tell you why. It`s because you guys have always been gutless, spineless, brainless achievement-less cowards.

From LONG BEFORE any Brahmin ever came into your land.

#80 by okhla99

[Extremely intellgent Harimau & the other Brahmins,

This refers to post #69 where you have tried to poke fun at other people (presumably SC/ST/OBC) who got names of primary colours wrong.

HOWEVER, dear intelligent Harimau,
the primary colours are Red, BLUE & Yellow as any SC/ST/OBC child will tell you. You appear to have your facts all mixed up. May be the OBC theory of colours is right and maybe your gang does happen to be wrong.Or may be you need to refer to your sacred texts. Wearing your sacred thread, of course.

Regards.]


I think before trying to refute something that an ``Extremely intelligent`` Brahmin has written, you should do a bit more research.

#78 by masanamuthu

[Also that list was not given my me. It is from your other Brahmin buddy ``abcd``. He told that we need to look at that list and then read ``guns, germs and steel`` to know about the technological breakthroughs of Brahmins.. Unfortunately, we could not find much in either.. ]


The minimum prerequisite is to be able to understand what you read.

Here`s what I wrote:

There is no reason (that we know so far) that any group of human beings cannot achieve just as much as any other group, except for cultural differences arising out of myriads of reasons. There`s an interesting book on this topic - Guns, Germs and Steel - that won the Pulitzer prize - that attempts to answer questions about why some societies have succeeded better than others.



Where in there did I mention that that book would enlighten you about ``technological breakthroughs of Brahmins``?

Eh?

#76 by masanamuthu

[ROFL.. our (BC/MBC/SC/ST) records have been lost too.. we invented the whole concept of mathematics and our records are lost in oral translation.. Go figure. :-) ]

Yes. This is why BC/MBC/SC/STs have traditionally done so well in the sciences. Just like the Brahmins. :)


[Atleast the Ku-Klu-Klan (white supremacists) have a point. All the innovations / inventions that have benefitted the human society were developed by White predominantly Christian men.. But these ``caste supremacists`` have just ``tall claims`` to back them up.. ]

Wrong. That`s your inferiority complex talking. In the pre-industrial age the majority of the scientific achievements were by non-Europeans.


[we have just got the opportunity, ask me back in 4000 A.D ( :-) ) we just started, our list will at least bigger than yours.. ]

That is very convenient. But of course, it is a lie.

Nobody was stopping your ancestors from developing their own theories of mathematics, arts and sciences. Brahmins, and later on caste, came into your ancestors` societies, especially in South India, only relatively recently.

What were your ancestors doing for the thousands of years BEFORE that?

Any answers?

Babu,

How does it matter if Hari writes for a particular pov? He has his life experiences and may be finding the new Indian realities quite unpalatable.

He has his own welfare in mind not the whole India`s. That way we cant find fault with him.

Best.

Re: # 101

Reservations or no reservations - I see an incentive to study and work hard throughout my life.

I would not get upset over harimau. he has a narrow point of view. you won`t hear from harimau about a lot of issues.

Re: # 80
Okhla
Actually Red Green and Blue violet are the additive primary colours from the point of view of physics and colour perception. The human eye contains only three types of colour receptors. It is possible to independently stimulate them using these wavelengths and thus provide many variations.

Red Blue and Yellow were coined as primary colours prior to this because it was believed that mixing them could produce all the other colours. They are still the primary colours when used by artists and painters.

This is what I know.

Sacred threads are normally white. It encompasses all colours I am told. -)

Bbabu,

I am not saying that u are a supporter of DMK.

The way some guyz say here is very amazing....knowledge is not the preserve of some groups.....there`s a saying......whoever worships Saraswati gets her mercy/bounty.....i.e whoever sudies hard get rewarded.

.....some people here never learn the basics of life.

Re: # 98

I am not a big supporter of DMK or AIADMK. But I think MGR, Jayalalitha and Karunanidhi are a cut above their counterparts in the North. Their caste based reservation policies are misguided.

Life is about priorities. You need to prioritize problems correctly to get ahead in life. If you look at the lives of people in Tamilnadu or lives of Tamilnadu Brahmins caste based reservations are somewhere in the middle of the list.

Harimau may whine about all those Brahmins who missed admissions to government funded engineering and medical colleges. At the end of the day most smart Brahmins figure out a way to survive.

Re: # 91

You are stereotyping people out of spite. Most of the OBC/SC/ST I know have names with a Sanskrit base.

Bbabu & Jang,

Stalin (s/o Karuna) visited a kovil (temple) b4 he filed his nominations papers in the recent elections.

Imagine how the Periyar or Anna Durai wud habe reacted to this??

Mr. Babu, as per DMK being clubbed as left...it`s plain convenience. We in India has many parties that are wedded to leftist ideology but are not named as communist OR socialist parties! We can call them as para-left (paraleft) parties. For example Samajwadi party in English reads like Socialist/Communist Party. Doesnt it??

If India need to progress to 21st century, it must shed Jurassic era policies.

In India caste and race is entwined. Infact it`s both.

Watching old Japanese movie of Akiro Kurusova reminds me of present day rural India (in scenes it looks like a pathetic, impoverished nation).

India has to meet the twin challenges of communalism (religious variety) and communalism (caste variety) to become another Japan in the next 50 years.

Re: # 61

Most people in the past had no time for science and philosophy. Most people had to do hard manual work for survival.

There are a few groups like Askenazi Jews who do have a higher genetic component for intellectual and business success.

I will give Tamil Brahmins credit. They seem more open to outside ideas compared to their non-Brahmin Tamil counterparts and even Telugu Brahmins. There is probably 5% minority among non-Brahmins and Brahmins who like to beat up each other over the caste based reservation policy.

GT, Bum Bholenath to you
harimau, jayen etc are doing just fine. in fact many ``lower`` castes of the yesteryear have taken-up mainstream brahminical pretenses and are discarding their older somewhat cultish gods. i posted earlier that my neighbor in mumbai ritually gives ``ardhyadan`` to the morning sun using a bightly shined copper kalash, mumbling i guess the gayatri or something..a very brahminical ritual. based on his caste, he should be slaughtering a buffalo on gatari day. so i think harimau is right that his thread is respected, but what i dont get is why is HE proud of it?

Re: # 75

you look as silly as the Islamic fundamentalists (who rant about the golden age of Islam) when you argue Indian contribution to Mathematics is anything close to what Western mathematicians have accomplished.

Re: # 28

DMK has never espoused communism. Their support for socialism or any other left wing ideology was no more than Congress or BJP infatuation with the public sector. They never represented people at the very bottom.

Some groups by virtue of genetic or cultural factors or a mix, make a disproportionate contribution to expansion of knowledge and economic growth.. south indian brahmins (who unlike the north indian brahmins are a small percentage of society) along with similar groups (there was a chowk article about one such group in punjab, the khatris.. parsees are also one such group as are the ismailis I think) in various parts of india (and pakistan, bangladesh) are one such group. The most prominent such worldwide group are ashkenazi jews (for more info do a search on google for charles murray`s recent article on this topic)..

A huge percentage of the most talented brahmins have emigrated outside tamil nadu (and outside india) because of systematic discrimination against them.. ultimately TN (and India) in the long run is the loser.. sure because of general macro factors, there will be growth etc. with quotas etc.. but its far from the optimal use of such scarce human resources.

Contrary to perceptions, the average quality of human resources in India (and south asia) is actually BELOW world averages and much lower than China/Korea/Japan. The only plus point is that the demographics is much younger but that advantage can be eroded. So simply taking this factor into account, it seems the gap between south asia and east asia will increase not decrease.. The only way to bridge the gap is by leveraging institutions (democracy, IITs etc) and promoting meritocracy.. Simply put, elitist education HAS TO BE purely meritocratic.. else the medium term consequences for Indian society will be negative (innovations and growth will be less than it would otherwise have been).. There seems to be a casual assumption that Indians as a group are ``talented`` and smart. Not true. It is biased by the Indians we meet abroad and in professional settings.

It is really sad that the premier (undergrad) school for mathematics in India (chennai math institute) had to affiliate with some unknown univ to get around the reservation quotas. Reservations wont effect the lower tier places that much (in terms of quality) but the highest tier places will be seriously affected. The main attraction to teach at places like IIT is the opportunity to interact with bright kids. In any case it wont matter much in the end as these kids who couldnt go to the college somehow still make it (the companies who hire have their own tests.. end of story)

Jang various:

Why are you being intellectual? Or serious? Something wrong with the job? .... health? Just curious. You are taking uncle hari and abcd seriously! Leave these guys alone, they are in deep shit (or is it Dickshit?) .... afterall Mayawati is their present leader in UP.

Ref DrDr #82

[as a total outsider im really curious abt ``bramin names`` - how can u tell?]

Quite easy. In Tamil Nadu, if a guy is named Senthamizh Selvan or Masanamuthu, you know he is not a brahmin. Among girls, Anbukkarasi (Love Queen) and Mangayarkkarasi (Queen Among Women) seem to be popular names among those not fortunate enough to be born with brains.

However, just like constant upgrades to computer hardware, most names are undergoing Sanskritisation. The Masanamuthus, not content with temples to Small Pox and Khushbhoo (a fat, Muslim actress), are entering en mass into temples dedicated to Gods and Goddesses of Vedic Brahmanism. With the result that, when you see someone named Lavanya, she probably belongs today to parents who have no background whatsoever in Sanskrit. I have run into more Akshayas and Lavanyas among the fisherfolks than Anbukkarasis or Tamil Selvis.

I know, it is tough for you guys. But there IS a litmus test: ask the person to pronounce the word ``Tamil`` which is the name of their language. The persons who do it correctly are brahmins. Or Malayalees -- just to confuse the hell out of you guys!

Jang,

Like the Spanish in Latin America did the migrators created mixed sub-castes of Brahmins in India. There are many mnay sub-castes among Brahmins as well. Not all Barhmins are allowed to do, for eg. conduct rituals.

If converted Muslims like Pakistanis are more arabic than arabs, these mixed Brahmins are more Brahminic than the pure Brahmins.

As 4 Rajputs, there`re no true Rajputs other than the people who `claimed` that status.

A true India is India when Negroids of Andamans & western India, Mongoloids of North-east, blade-nosed Kashmiris, dark-skinned southerners and tall Punjabis+Rajastahnis share a common identity i.e Indianness brushing aside this effing Brahmin & non-Brahmin, Muslim & non-Muslim denominations. (Too begin with, wud we accept a negroid or a chinese-looking NE fella working as a newsreader on our primetime TVs?. Our effing TV channels always recruit Punjabi-looking fellas.)

These effing denomications are working as mental blocks.

#87 folio, i have no problem acknowledging astronomical shyte based on almanacs or what i refered to as ``brahminical character``. but all that a large number (99%) of brahmins generations after generations did was repeat the puranic mumbo jumbo and analyzed shartras to figure out formula for amount of liters of gau mutra needed to clense a foreign-land returnee as a function of distance in number of kos from kashi. none of them knew anything about the famed sulabha sutra of apastambha or method of delivering a baby based on susrutas writing..heck none of them could deliver a calve of our revered dear gau-mata, they needed to call the kurmi to do that job else they would end-up giving an enema to the poor cow. so i just dont get how the brahmin can proudly wave his yajnyopavit when it is essentially a symbol of generations of social ossification and colossal ignorance...a tribe of idiot-savants, thats what brahmins are. they needed the western education and light to set them free and suddenly they talk of merit.

some hypocricy of the threaded.

#83 so maybe bramins were good ``scientists`` but not engineers?

Jang,

That`s too cruel on ur part.

Let me attempt. Learning is the exclusive job of Brahmins. A rajput`s job is to learn the ropes of sword-fighting, wrestling, horse-riing and other martial faculties. A trader`s job is to multipy the money that he inherited from his father. Even family traditions among traders have had many anecdotes, parables that promote this faculty of money-making. As for Brahmins, their job is to justify that King is the incarnation of the God (whichever God the King patronises).

Sudras (now split into upper castes and OBC,SC & STs): Each one has his own caste profession. A rope maker`s job is to train his son as a master rope maker. As for daughters, they need to find a good rope-maker as his son-in-law. These non-Brahmins never had an opportunity to get into learnings. I dont know if they ever had an opportunity to read at least?!?!

For the mastery of Barhmins in learnings, u must see the traditional almanacs. The westerners know only abt calenders that denote dates and days whereas we have calenders in India that include so much of data abt sun/moon rise/set. The times given are immaculate. Cant deny that. Though they link it with astrology (stupid thing) but san the astrological predictions, the astronomical calculations (without use of sextent or planetarium) we see in our calenders is something we all must acknowledge.

Ability to memorise (Rg Veda was not written till 7th century AD) is something special abt Brahmins as well.

`` In fact, he is DEMANDING that the law of the land recognize nothing except merit.
``

Actually merit is over-rated. If it was a merit-based workd, I would not have the luxury of browsing the web during work hours and getting paid for it.

#84 ;-)

#83

wah, wah ... taaliyaan, taaliyan!

#82 its only among madrassis you have brahmin and non-brahmin names...some dalits take buddhist names, but they are not uncommon among hindus either. surnames OTOH are telling because they refer to profession. So e.g. Dickshit (meaning priest) is likely to be a brahmin ;-)

anyhoo..for all the fluffing of the sacred thread, if you look at the history of last several centuries, brahmins have utterly failed the nation of bharat, considering they were at the top of the social-hierachy and therefore had the bully-pulpit.

- they capitulated to the invading hordes readily in return for small token annuities for their temples, in return were happy to crate paens praising even aurang jeb.

- they added nothing in the ``hard sciences`` and infact even lost important things like old mathematical works until the westerners came around and started exploring. all they did was regurgitate the shastras and the puranas ad-nauseum.

- they contributed nothing to engineering of canals, architecture, masonary, agriculture, animal husbandary and other important human endevours which improve life-style instead talked about world being maya, so give me some alms.

- they expressly retarded naval and other explorations by figuring out injuctions from shastras about crosing of the oceans. nooone dared cross the ocean (and come back) to face a cleansing gau-mutra shower.

so i think they should shut-up about achievements..sorry, if aryabhatta wrote some postulates, that does not count..its like jeemax harping about some old kaliph. what matters is brahmins DID NOT propagate that knowledge to do anything useful..what they mugged-up carefully from generation to generation was vishnu-sahastranams and correct recipe for satya narayan puja..for not particularly useful shyte.

just the other day there was a puja and the presiding priest was impressed that the halwa tested very much as if it was done by brahmins..the host was some kinda non-brahmin madrassi..and the priest also added that nowadays he eats food cooked by non-brahmins too because he is modern.

in short, large percentage of brahmins were obsessed by this kinda shyte, leaving the society to dogs. so, while brahminical character is (scholarship, cleanliness, dispassionate apporach etc) is honorable, brahmins as a group deserve no special respect IMO... for them to DEMAND it is really amusing.

as a total outsider im really curious abt ``bramin names`` - how can u tell?

Re: # 75
And of course, the Brahmins had invented the Uran Khatola in Ramayan times...

Extremely intellgent Harimau & the other Brahmins,

This refers to post #69 where you have tried to poke fun at other people (presumably SC/ST/OBC) who got names of primary colours wrong.

HOWEVER, dear intelligent Harimau,
the primary colours are Red, BLUE & Yellow as any SC/ST/OBC child will tell you. You appear to have your facts all mixed up. May be the OBC theory of colours is right and maybe your gang does happen to be wrong.Or may be you need to refer to your sacred texts. Wearing your sacred thread, of course.

Regards.