God is a Metaphor

Re: # 86

dear zeemax...the reason i do not answer your questions is because i would like to have

mutually respectful dialogue. in the past you made comments about my writings that were

not respectful. i am aware that you are an intelligent man. if we have a difference of

opinion... you being a believer and i non-believer.. is not an issue. i have many believer

friends with whom i can have an intellectually stimulating dialogue and learn from them. it

is our mutual attitude. if you promise to have a serious dialogue with me about any

subject....God or Sex....I am willing but when you want to throw some trick questions and

get an answer from me that you can use for your next debate and highlight my weak points

then i get disappointed and stop the dialgue. i never claimed that all i say is right and is

absolute truth. i am learning from all of you and growing and getting inspired to write more.

for example your comments about human sexuality is inspiring me to write an article about

RELIGION AND SEX.

so choice is yours. if you want to end the dialogue i am fine but if you want to continue we

might learn something from each other. respectfully and sincerely and honestly...sohail

Re #86, zeemax,
I didn`t decline. I was busy.
So, here it goes.

drsohail was pretty clear that he would not interfere in the personal decision of 2 consenting adults to have an incestous relationship. So we can safely assume that he would support their legal right to have this relationship. If he wouldn`t interfere, surely he wouldn`t want anyone else(the state, for example) to interfere.

A good follow-up question would be , if drsohail would consider incestous relationship immoral for himself [no disrespect intended here] . Is it consistent with his `subjective truth` ? If yes or no, then why? maybe he will care to explain.

As for his defensive reaction regarding morality, I think he was assuming that you were about say that since he doesn`t believe in God he has no foundation to base his morality on. That is a whole `nother discussion.

Dr. Sohail,

I see Khurram has declined my request for clarification of your position. I respect his decision.

would you care to clarify? Or if you do not, we can end this discussion right here.

Regards.

Re: # 81


Joint family living does not necessitate consanguinous marriages. Various Hindu, Sikh, Chinese families live in such arragnements. When everyone is on the same page you are correct there is a lot of warmth and support. However there are plenty of disaster stories as well.

Btw not all Muslim communities have high rates of intermarriage. Ie Turkey esp western parts it is uncommon and among Persians it is fowned upon by educated classes. Defn orthodoxy and social constraints are highly correlated with is incidence, Saudi Arabia the most obvious. In Great Britian there have been honor killings punishing girls who have found their own partner (even if he is a Pakistani Muslim) as opposed to going along with a pre-ordained arranged match with a cousin back home. I recently was at the house of an acquaintance and there was this very sweet elderly Pakistani lady talking about her grandchildren, I couldn`t follow what she was saying because she was talking in Punjabi. Later my friend explained that she was sizing them up to see how to match up her grandchildren as potential partners.

I am not sure why this is not taken up by the sizable Pakistani medical community and public health initiative developped to address this. It is easily addressed by seeking alternatives to cousin marriages. What Khurram is really addressing is not having the need to ever forbid cousin marriages which is okay for societies where they are an anomly but most defn not for societies where they are common place.

Re: # 68
dear kaalchakra,

readers like nazarhayat khan, malik jahanzeb, mohammad gill, rafi aamer and khurrum

makes it all woth it....thanks for your inspiration....sohail

Re: # 78
dear khurrum....
your humorous comment about advocating on zeemax bahalf or me reminded me of ghalib`s two couplets

poochtay hain wo kay ghalib koan hay
koi batlao key hum batlain kia

badal kar faqeeron ka ham bhais ghalib
tamash-e-ahl-e-karam daikhtay hain

have fun....sohail

Re: # 68 kaalchakra,

For us slackers, its always a pleasure to find you here and a previlege to be remembered by you.

I like to say that I have liked this cultural aspect of hindu people that extra effort is made to carry out marriages between virtually perfect strangers. If only they could get circumcised too.......... (kidding)

Re: # 70 PM

Speaking of my intentions, my case was indeed against cousin-marriages only. But since you reminded me of its ties with joint families living together, I have to admit that the later will have very hard time to sustain without the help of the former. This is my practical experience, again from my paternal family that an outsider girl is more likely to drag the husband out of the joint. Actually, my mother did this to my father. :-D

I don`t know how good or bad extended family system is, but it always sounds like a fun idea to me. Whenever you go there, you have so many people to socialize with.

Re: #79

A common man usually trusts religion on questions he has less knowledge about. If I were an average religious guy, this is how I would think:

`If there is something really wrong with it, allah would have forbidded it already. Hence there is nothing wrong with it`.

I know the primary reason for cousin marriages is not religion per se but by all means, Islam fosters such an environment by limiting and discouraging intra-family interactions between males and females (the primary method for couples to know about each other) and creating a paranoia around this whole sex and honour thing. As a result, family marriages become the default and convinient choice.

Yes, I can`t find a hadis saying `marry thy cousins`, but you gotta take practical things into account..... makes any sense?

Re: #66,
``They see all this happenning but religious endorsement is so strong that they keep doing it. ``

religious what? There is no religious mandate or even encouragement for cousin marriages.
It is just not outlawed. The article I referred to makes the point that an outright ban on cousin marriages per se is not necessary. Moderation and rational behaviour is required.

Re #75 drsohail,
I thought I was being asked to be your advocate ;-)

#75 by drsohail,

Dear Dr. Sohail,

I`m not asking Khurram to be my advocate, but only to clarify your position on the issue, since you tend to be very evasive when confronted with direct questions :)

In fact, asking Khurram to be my advocate would be disrespectful to his far superior intellect to mine.

Re: # 65

Khurram, also it seems that the artcile you have quoted is from and Islamic website probably trying to justify this heinous practice. What I am quoting is actual facts on the incidence of birth defects. Anecdotally though I personally know a number of Pakistani families in Canada whose children have learning disabilities, development delays etc... whose parents are first cousins from a long line of intermarriages. These children are NOT counted at birth! I can also forward you educational testing from Britain that when controlled for socioeconomic status and parental education Pakistani children do the worst academically among other South Asians. I really want to understand how this can persist when it is universally accepted that most parents want the best for their child. Why is the the medical community of Pakistani doctors not more vocal about this? Although I do know several who are personally very opposed to this trend.

Re: # 71
dear khurrum...congratulations for being asked to be the advocate for zeemax...smiles.....sohail

Re: # 65

Khurram I am afraid you are confusing two very different situations. Incidental first cousin marriage is not disastrous and the risk of genetic abnormality is minimally increased. What I am talking about is completely different. It is the preponderance of first cousin marriages over generations. The risk here is phenomenally higher for genetic disease. Pakistani`s acount for 3.4% of live births but 30% of recessive genetic disorders in Great Britain. As a physician it has baffled and disturbed me how even educated Muslims are not alarmed by this trend. Do you honestly think such a tendency has not had negative impact on intellectual faculties.This has not been adequately researched. Is it not possible that the poor academic performance of Pakistani students is affected by this? The article you quote is about the ``occasional`` intermarraige but likewise there a numerous jokes about the limited faculties of inbred people in the south of the US. Saudi Arabia is the most telling example. It has one the highest rate of birth defects in the world. The gov`t is not going to go on a public health campaign anytime soon. It is distressing for me as a physician that innocent children pay the ultimate price for this misguided mentality. Here is an article in the BBC:

risks of cousin marriage

By Justin Rowlatt
BBC Newsnight


Many people would find the idea of marrying a first cousin shocking, but such marriages are not unusual in some British communities.

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It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries.

But there is a problem: marrying someone who is themselves a close family member carries a risk for children - a risk that lies within the code of life; within our genes.

Communities that practice cousin marriage experience higher levels of some very rare but very serious illnesses - illnesses known as recessive genetic disorders.

Open debate

Now, one Labour MP is calling for an end to the practice. ``We have to stop this tradition of first cousin marriages,`` Keighley MP Ann Cryer tells Newsnight.

Family events are really nice because my in-laws and his are related

Neila Butt
Mrs Cryer believes an open debate on the subject is needed because - despite the risks - cousin marriage remains very popular.

Mrs Cryer`s constituency is in the Bradford area, where the rates of cousin marriage are well above the national average. It is estimated that three out of four marriages within Bradford`s Pakistani community are between first cousins.

The practice remains so popular because the community believes there are real benefits to marrying in the family. Many British Pakistanis celebrate cousin marriage because it is thought to generate more stable relationships.

Strong unions

Such unions are seen as strong, building as they do on already tight family networks.


``You have an understanding,`` explains Neila Butt, who married her first cousin, Farooq, nine years ago.

``Family events are really nice because my in-laws and his are related,`` she says.

``You have the same family history and when you talk about the old times either here or in Pakistan you know who you are talking about. It`s just a nicer emotional feel.``

But the statistics for recessive genetic illness in cousin marriages make sobering reading.

British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.

Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.

Variant genes

Recessive genetic disorders are caused by variant genes. There are hundreds of different recessive genetic disorders, many associated with severe disability and sometimes early death, and each caused by a different variant gene.

My skin is really fragile, and can blister very easily with a slight knock or tear

Myra Ali
We all have two copies of every gene. If you inherit one variant gene you will not fall ill.

If, however, a child inherits a copy of the same variant gene from each of its parents it will develop one of these illnesses.

The variant genes that cause genetic illness tend to be very rare. In the general population the likelihood of a couple having the same variant gene is a hundred to one.

In cousin marriages, if one partner has a variant gene the risk that the other has it too is far higher - more like one in eight.

Myra Ali has a very rare recessive genetic condition, known as Epidermolisis Bulosa.

Her parents were first cousins. So were her grandparents.

``My skin is really fragile, and can blister very easily with a slight knock or tear,`` she says.

Myra has strong views about the practice of cousin marriage as a result. ``I`m against it, because there`s a high risk of illness occurring``, she says.

Denial

We all have to get involved in persuading people to adopt a different lifestyle

Ann Cryer MP
According to Ann Cryer MP, whose Keighley constituency has a large Pakistani population, much of the Pakistani community is in denial about the problem.

She tells Newsnight that she believes it is time for an open debate on the subject: ``As we address problems of smoking, drinking, obesity, we say it`s a public health issue, and therefore we all have to get involved with it in persuading people to adopt a different lifestyle``, she says.

``I think the same should be applied to this problem in the Asian community. They must adopt a different lifestyle. They must look outside the family for husbands and wives for their young people.``

Re: # 72
dear zarrar....welcome to the creative dialogue ...you can send me your creations
welcome@drsohail.com
and can see my other creations on
www.drsohail.com
sincerely sohail