God is a Metaphor

Dr. Sahib,

Glad to know there are other secular humanists in this world and particularly in this chowk community. Would love to read more of your stuff and share some of my own.

#62 by khurram,

Since you have the proven ability to decipher Dr. Sohail`s complex thought process, which I don`t, could you kindly advise me if my following reading of #47 is correct?

1) ... for me sex is a private matter between two consenting adults.

It appears from the tone of this that Dr. Sohail is prepared to `condone` the practice but does not encourage it either as being fully natural.

2) ...what you are trying to prove is that secular humanists and atheists are immoral people and only religious people are moral people.

My question didn`t raise any issue of morality, but only of legality. However Dr. Sohail raises the morality question. Why? This is really confusing. To my mind the above statement asserts that secular humanists and atheists are as moral as religious people. But to meet that condition, wouldn`t it be necessary for both sets to regard brother/sister sexual relations as immoral? With the only difference being that the former group condones the practice while the latter group does not? Read together with (1) above, which reinforces this conclusion of the captioned statement, it would appear to be true.

But if the foregoing was true, then although it is clear that the religious people`s morality springs from scriptures, but it remains murky regarding from where the same morality of atheists/humanists comes from. But still, wouldn`t it be curious in that case that the both sets of moralities, irrespective of where these spring from, converge at this point?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

mailk, re. #66
Would it be fairer to say that you`ve presented a case against extened-family set-ups as opposed to cousin-marriages?

Or are the two tied up in some way? Please explain if so.
Thanks.

eastmwest #61

The promise and prospect of 72 houris waiting in Paradise, though a tad unfair to straight women and gay men, is in no way a inconsistent with a more prudish sex ethic for us while we`re earthboud. Islam recognizes, and rightly so, that for social stability, man cannot have his every wish fulfilled. Islam opposition to certain sex does not, like in Christianity, have an erotophobic basis. It is purely utilitarian: Sex is good; but not if it`s gonna upset the social apple cart.

That said, your exposing of Z`s hypocrisy in #60 is both valid and complete! Well done!!

nazarhayatkhan, malikjahanzeb

Wah, wah, two uncommon visitors blessed with uncommon, astute minds seen at the same board one after another. Only khalid sohail`s high-powered draw could make that happen :)

Daktar

As usual, you built up the logic systematically to reach the final cresendo. What you say makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Scripture & religion have proven to be quite a bit of nuisance when used by nit wits.

I wonder how those two brothers of Jama Hafsa would respond to your line of thinking?

Fatwa - behead - Murtid - suicide attack?

Poor Minister Nilofar who did a Paragliding jump has been fatwaad because an elderly person patted her!

I think the Hell is not yet to come - it is already here.

regards

NHK

#65 khurram,

This is what I would call `bending over backwards` to be a religious appologist. I can tell you my first hand experience that about 1 in 4 children have died in my father`s family who live in a large haveli usually marrying internally. And I not taling about a sample of 4 kids but about 20 of them. They see all this happenning but religious endorsement is so strong that they keep doing it.

Also, it looks like your experience of god not being a dellusion begs some explanation. Would you bless us with some?

Some perspective on cousin marriage.

From http://www.members.aol.com/ruqaiyyah/articles/index.htm
Scroll on the left to find ``Some Thoughts on Cousin Marriage``
It`s a LOOONG article! Some excerpts,

``In fact, throughout history moderate inbreeding has always been the rule, and not the exception, for humans. Robin Fox, a professor of anthropology at Rutgers University, concluded that it was likely that some 80 percent of all marriages throughout history have been between second-cousins or closer.``

``Inbreeding is also commonplace in the natural world, and contrary to our expectations, some biologists argue that this can be a very good thing. It depends in part on the degree of inbreeding.``

``First-cousin marriage does not necessarily result in congenital defects. An argument can be made that marriages of first cousins descended from strong stock can actually produce exceptional children, and increase their strengths. A founding couple could pass on advantageous genes.``

``A team of scientists led by Robin L. Bennett, a genetic counsellor at the University of Washington and the President of the National Society of Genetic Counsellors, announced that cousin marriages are not significantly riskier than any other marriage. The study determined that children of first cousins did face about a 2 to 3 per cent higher risk of birth defects, and a little over 4 per cent greater risk of early death, than the population at large. But putting it another way, first-cousin marriages entail roughly the same increased risk of abnormality that a woman undertakes when she gives birth at 41 rather than at 30. Banning cousin-marriages therefore makes about as much sense, critics argue, as trying to ban childbearing by older women.``

``The consequences of inbreeding are unpredictable and depend largely on what biologists call the founder effect. If the founding couple pass on a large number of lethal recessives, as appears to have happened in Bradford, these recessives will spread and double up through intermarriage. But whereas it is true that marriage among close kin can increase the chances of pathological recessive genes meeting up in some unlucky individual with dire consequences, the problem is not that of cousin-marriage per se, but rather how many such genes are floating around in that particular family’s pool. If the pool is pretty clean, the likelihood of genetic defects resulting from cousin-marriage is low. If the founding couple hand down a comparatively healthy genome, their descendants could safely intermarry for generations - at least until small deleterious effects inevitably began to pile up and produce inbreeding depression, the long-term decline in the well-being of a family or a species.``

``Any danger can these days be minimized easily with genetic testing. Science is increasingly able to help people look at their own choices more objectively. Genetic and metabolic tests can now screen for about 100 recessive disorders``

``It would be good practice to have a blood test before marriage``

Re: # 63

dear khurrum....i am impressed by your perceptions and enjoy your intelligence. to answer

your question honestly GOD IS A METAPHOR is my subjective truth. i also think that all

poems and stories and scriptures and folktales created by mystics and poets and prophets

were also their SUBJECTIVE TRUTHS.

as a poet and a writer all my truths are subjective truths. i asked you if you care to share

your encounter with GOD and then tell me whether it is a subjective or objective truth. i

will take it seriously even it is a subjective truth as i believe you are an honest person.

sincerely sohail

Re #39, drsohail,
``...i do not want to get into intellectual debate...``

As you wish :-)

But, one last question,

``...some truths are subjective while others are objective ..``

Is your statement, ``God is a metaphor`` an objective truth or subjective one?

Thanks

Re #58,
``...Besides isn`t it also okay for you to marry your niece..``

Nope. That is not allowed.

Re: # 59

Too funny comeing form a guy who believes Allah approves of sex with multiple virgins in hte afterlife and a prophet who promises young boys as beautiful as pearls...

It never ceases to amaze me of how oblivious people like you are to normal family values.

Re: # 57

So you would kick their butts huh? Most people would lynch a fiftysomething guy having sex or screwing a nine year old but it sounds good to you.

What don`t you shut up with your hypocritical moralizing. Most socieites thinks a family is ONE man and ONE woman not one man and an assortment of women he sleeps with. Yuck! But it is totally normal to you.

#55 by Folio

Pl treat that incident as an exception.

:) Same sex marriage began as an exception too. Now it is a socially accepted norm. This case is in the highest court in Germany. This will be a norm too in due course. Will you be happy with it?

I suppose the more sisters one has, the more they will support it ... all in the family ... you know .. :)

Re: # 56

To most people yes. But I am certain you have done worse. Just a hunch. First to always cast stones, judge others etc...

Besides to you screwing your sister should be no big deal to you. You never answered my post about first cousin marriages across generations that results in sibling like marraiges. Alot of these first cousins grow up like brother and sister and are genetically related like siblings. Yet because is is sanctioned in Islam it is okay. Make a family tree of it and show it to most people. They will want tp throw up. Besides isn`t it also okay for you to marry your niece? Most people/cultures globally would find that abhorrent but again coz its santioned by Islam it is okay for you. What`s you next beef? Lemme guess Pedophilia? Please we don`t have to go there do we...

#47 by drsohail,

...for me sex is a private matter between two consenting adults...i am not a judge. nor a qazi. i do not represent law nor religion. i follow my own ethics and my conscience and let others follow their own conscience.

Thanks. I have my answer. So for you sex is a private matter in between two consenting adults even if they`re brother/sister, and I assume you would legalize it since you`re neither a judge nor a qazi nor do you not represent any law. So you support the brother/sister in their fight to have a licit sexual relationship because they`re following their own conscience.

Very good. You`ve been honest and I salute you for that.

ps....now you tell me what would you do with this couple who had incest?

It`s kind of strange you ask what I would do, after having said you do not represent any law nor religion and you follow your own ethics and your conscience. I would do the same.

So then we agree after all!

As to what I would exactly do, I would kick their butts for destroying the entire institution of family and marriage and kids to raise in a social set-up, and not in a set-up of monkeys and hyenas in a jungle. Wasn`t it you who had said that humans have `evolved`?

But I have my answer, and I thank you again for that. Thankfully, it wasn`t as esoteric as I had feared :)

:~)