God is a Metaphor

Re: # 70 PM

Speaking of my intentions, my case was indeed against cousin-marriages only. But since you reminded me of its ties with joint families living together, I have to admit that the later will have very hard time to sustain without the help of the former. This is my practical experience, again from my paternal family that an outsider girl is more likely to drag the husband out of the joint. Actually, my mother did this to my father. :-D

I don`t know how good or bad extended family system is, but it always sounds like a fun idea to me. Whenever you go there, you have so many people to socialize with.

Re: # 68 kaalchakra,

For us slackers, its always a pleasure to find you here and a previlege to be remembered by you.

I like to say that I have liked this cultural aspect of hindu people that extra effort is made to carry out marriages between virtually perfect strangers. If only they could get circumcised too.......... (kidding)

Re: # 78
dear khurrum....
your humorous comment about advocating on zeemax bahalf or me reminded me of ghalib`s two couplets

poochtay hain wo kay ghalib koan hay
koi batlao key hum batlain kia

badal kar faqeeron ka ham bhais ghalib
tamash-e-ahl-e-karam daikhtay hain

have fun....sohail

Re: # 68
dear kaalchakra,

readers like nazarhayat khan, malik jahanzeb, mohammad gill, rafi aamer and khurrum

makes it all woth it....thanks for your inspiration....sohail

Re: # 81


Joint family living does not necessitate consanguinous marriages. Various Hindu, Sikh, Chinese families live in such arragnements. When everyone is on the same page you are correct there is a lot of warmth and support. However there are plenty of disaster stories as well.

Btw not all Muslim communities have high rates of intermarriage. Ie Turkey esp western parts it is uncommon and among Persians it is fowned upon by educated classes. Defn orthodoxy and social constraints are highly correlated with is incidence, Saudi Arabia the most obvious. In Great Britian there have been honor killings punishing girls who have found their own partner (even if he is a Pakistani Muslim) as opposed to going along with a pre-ordained arranged match with a cousin back home. I recently was at the house of an acquaintance and there was this very sweet elderly Pakistani lady talking about her grandchildren, I couldn`t follow what she was saying because she was talking in Punjabi. Later my friend explained that she was sizing them up to see how to match up her grandchildren as potential partners.

I am not sure why this is not taken up by the sizable Pakistani medical community and public health initiative developped to address this. It is easily addressed by seeking alternatives to cousin marriages. What Khurram is really addressing is not having the need to ever forbid cousin marriages which is okay for societies where they are an anomly but most defn not for societies where they are common place.

Dr. Sohail,

I see Khurram has declined my request for clarification of your position. I respect his decision.

would you care to clarify? Or if you do not, we can end this discussion right here.

Regards.

Re #86, zeemax,
I didn`t decline. I was busy.
So, here it goes.

drsohail was pretty clear that he would not interfere in the personal decision of 2 consenting adults to have an incestous relationship. So we can safely assume that he would support their legal right to have this relationship. If he wouldn`t interfere, surely he wouldn`t want anyone else(the state, for example) to interfere.

A good follow-up question would be , if drsohail would consider incestous relationship immoral for himself [no disrespect intended here] . Is it consistent with his `subjective truth` ? If yes or no, then why? maybe he will care to explain.

As for his defensive reaction regarding morality, I think he was assuming that you were about say that since he doesn`t believe in God he has no foundation to base his morality on. That is a whole `nother discussion.

Re: # 86

dear zeemax...the reason i do not answer your questions is because i would like to have

mutually respectful dialogue. in the past you made comments about my writings that were

not respectful. i am aware that you are an intelligent man. if we have a difference of

opinion... you being a believer and i non-believer.. is not an issue. i have many believer

friends with whom i can have an intellectually stimulating dialogue and learn from them. it

is our mutual attitude. if you promise to have a serious dialogue with me about any

subject....God or Sex....I am willing but when you want to throw some trick questions and

get an answer from me that you can use for your next debate and highlight my weak points

then i get disappointed and stop the dialgue. i never claimed that all i say is right and is

absolute truth. i am learning from all of you and growing and getting inspired to write more.

for example your comments about human sexuality is inspiring me to write an article about

RELIGION AND SEX.

so choice is yours. if you want to end the dialogue i am fine but if you want to continue we

might learn something from each other. respectfully and sincerely and honestly...sohail

Re: eastmwest,

There is nothing in your posts 74 & 76 that I disagree with. Neither does the article that I quoted. The solution it proposes is greater education and awareness and use of latest technology to make informed & rational decisions. An outright ban would make it a polarizing issue and would not help solve the problem.

Re: malikjahanzeb,
As eastmwest points out cousin-marriage is not universal among muslim cultures.
Making it a religious issue would not be helpful.

Re: drsohail #64,

Thank you for honestly stating that this article is your subjective truth. I would like to ask you some questions regarding subjective truth. I am not trying to be argumentative or trying to trip you up. I GENUINELY want to understand and don`t have good answers myself.

1. Do subjective truths have any criteria for validity? Or anything goes?
2. Is there any way to compare different subjective truths and choose one over another?
3. When collective action is required among people with different subjective truths, how to come to a decision?
4. What if there is a conflict between 2 subjective truths. How to resolve that conflict?
And lastly,
5. Is there anything beyond subjective truth?

Thanks

Re: # 90
dear khurram....i wish you lived in toronto and we could have a marathon dialogue.

your questions are valid. give me some time and i will try to answer them the best i

can...thanks for reassuring me that we are having a genuine dialogue trying to learn from

each other. between the two of us we can write a book....sincerely sohail

ps...you still did not answer whether you had any ``mystical/spiritual/divine experience``?

Re: # 89 khurram,

You may be right. But there should be no denying about the indirect effects of relavent pressures. For example, it is said that women is Islam are encouraged to get educated and work. But in reality, they are discouraged by some relevant but indirect social behaviours directly stemming from religion e.g. perdah and sex starvation through segrigation. I am for looking at the system in its totality as that is how it affects its subjects.

Re: # 85 dr sahib,

You are probably right that interfamily marriages are more of a learned trait and in spite of Islam, things can be made better by creating awareness about the harmful consequences of the practice. The only reason I feel Islam is to blame somewhat is the reason I wrote in reply to khurram. Islam`s extreme conservatism in the matters of sex surely does have significant effect of encouraging the practice. The girls in a family, even the elderly women do not have any method of socializing with men outside the family because of conservative values that usually family members are the only ones well known and trusted and become the natural choice. I think for the change to come, these values must also give way.

Re: # 90 Would you also provide your speculations on these questions?

When secularist/athetist loonies grow up they would realize that God is essential. Not as a divine entity or some super massive blob of energy, but as an unseen spirit which unifies all that exists.

Re: # 95 What a word of wisdom. I am impressed.........