With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective

Salim,

You could probably have good intentions, but do you know the history behind why the term ``Mohajir/Muhajir`` is chosen?.. It has negative (or positive) connotations based on one`s perception..

Are you angry that ``Punjabis`` / ``Sindhis`` failed to be the real ``ansars``, the fools who accepted someone else as their leader like the Medinans accepted Mohammad. No wonder Mohammad / Umar ruled that ``ansars`` are not fit to be leaders.. Too bad Punjabis declined to be ``ansars``.. :-)

Re: # 510

Thank you Mr Ranjit, for elobraing my point of view

`` If the hindus had remained there, Sindh would have become a beacon of prosperity and culture, rather than what it has become today``


I will add, it every one had remained there, the parsis, the goans, the jews, the iranis, ...and all the other....similiar enthicities......!!

I have with reference earlier said, Karachi was already a highly developed and sophisticated and cultured center, thanks to the Suez Canal, and General Napier, in making it a Port city, also the great Parsi contribution especially in educational fields
Remember M A Jinnah too , studied in a Karachi`s educational institute and that was way back in 1880`s or so....

...... these Fact I do not know, why fires, the Chadis.........!!


...all these Facts , are there, one just has to go to the Mohata Palace`s Raj Museum, and pick up books written about Karachi and its Past............ before declaring Karachi a sleeping ghost town of the 1940`s., as claimed by SOME, which it was NOT.

Re: # 501

Mr Masadi will say whatever he has to say, he won`t be stopped by either you or Me or any one else...


let me repeat..

`` Barabbas was a member of the sicarii, a militant Jewish movement that sought to overthrow the Roman occupiers of their land by force`` Mark (15:7)


[ Freedom fighter.....???? ]


Interestingly.... ``Barabbas``, or ``Bar-abbas``, translates to ``son of the father``, also.


also

In the book The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail written by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln, there is an idea that Barabbas is son of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. According to authors of the book, this explains why the crowd choose Barabbas to stay alive, because such act will save the dynasty.

..go figure out about the Myths, and Myths......and Myths,.......which create our perceptions.




Oh sorry I forgot , yes please come back to the Topic.

..and where were we.....!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/indepth/cluster/2003/10/031019_army_police_si.shtml

Tyranny of Pak colonial army agianst its own people who pay its salaries

re: nauman72 # 509

To a great extent, you are right on this one, and Beej is wrong. The best of us surrender to the easy allure of ``but for this one person.......``

#508 Zeena {``Thanks, I did read the whole agenda of MQM, very impressive.
...PS:- You have have the potential to be future CE of chowk. We are ready for a change. Just think about it. You have already proved your valid presence on FP. ``}

Zeena,
I am glad that you were able to form your own opinion. I don`t want to be a poster boy for MQM. As I cautioned in my article, we should never put ALL our faith in one party, one leader, or some catchy and emotional slogan ever again. Let`s keep MQM and all other parties honest by demanding that they present their agenda in writing, that they elect their own leaders democratically (not some stupid hereditary right or dada giri-based usurpation), and that they swear to the results of any election. Of course, there should be massive international presence to make sure the elections are fair and just.

On the personal issue of my position on Chowk FP, I am content with the role of novice writer. As I stated earlier I have neither the qualifications nor the temperament to such high office. Thanks for your consistent support. :)

#509 Nauman72, {``To save the minorities from the tyranny of the majority I suggest that we should educate our citizens and inculcate the spirit of tolerance, moderation and balance in them. ``}

Nauman Sahib,
Aameen, brother, aameen. :)
If only our people can understand and support, even defend, the concept of dissent, I am confident that we can get there. :)

#505 by kaalchakra on April 15, 2007 12:15pm PT
{``ranjit, Salim is not really asking for help from anyone. He is addressing himself to other Mohajirs. Only they are in a position to know if they are facing any problems, and how they ought to confront them.``}

Kaal Bhayy,
Thanks for trying to restrain Mr. Ranjit, but really I don`t mind. He is a gentleman and a very good straight man. I am enjoying the whole skull and bones conspiracy. :) Do you think that he is a member?

Revised:

If breaking up of Sindh helps India or not is unimportant. Eg. Bangladesh.

Ranjit #503 {``Most of Liaquat`s land holdings were in western UP. For all practical purposes he was a leader of the UP muslims. ...made Kashmir the ``core`` issue and created most of the ethnic mess in Pakistan by relocating mohajirs in a manner to give them demographic clout over locals. ...Bottom line is this - I believe that UP muslims would have done anything, absolutely anything in the name of Pakistan, if partition had not happened. They had gone beserk with communalism by 1947. The Punjus did most of the killing no doubt. However, the organization, the instigation, the provocations were all due to UP muslim manipulation. UP muslim leaders and the deobandis would go all over Punjab and Sindh to provoke local muslims. There are accounts of them carrying human skulls and bones with them to Punjab to present as ``evidence`` of hindu brutality....Now that the mohajirs have failed in Pakistan, suddenly they have discovered their love for India!! ``}

Dear Ranjit,
You are now sounding like Mr. Chicken Little with his head chopped off. :) Come on, my friend, how can you predict the future of Delhi and UP had partitioned not occurred? How can you determine an outcome similar to Baghdad, where the situation is very different and the demographics, culture, history, and antagonists are not even similar? Man, you are some Nostradamus without the foresight. :)

Again, just because Liaquat Ali Khan had land holdings in another province, it does not change his ethnicity. Also, you may not know this, but the person you call anti-India, anti-Hindu, and the architect of the Kashmir ``problem,`` was possibly assassinated for accepting Mr. Nehru`s offer of a cease-fire and resolution of the ``problem`` through the UN. I believe that it was Gen. Akbar Khan`s conspiracy - perhaps more knowledgeable Chowkies can shed some light on this item.

Skull and bones? - really Mr. Ranjit! Next you will claim that George Bush I and George Bush II assisted the UP Muslims with this cloak and dagger secrecy. Come on, please make some sense. If UP Muslims could not instigate violence in their own province, how could they be so successful in creating the violence in Punjab? We are talking about bhayyas here and not some jihadi warriors - surely you can`t even fool yourself.

Lastly, your statement about Mohajirs having ``failed in Pakistan`` is too much of the wet dream variety. As many Paki Punjus will tell you, the President, Army Chief, PM, and many of the general are Mohajirs. :) (See, I can use this perverse logic to suit my argument too :) ). Mohajirs control the largest and most prosperous city in Pakistan, which is now the largest Urdu/Hindi speaking city in the world - yes, more Urdu/Hindi speakers than Mumbai, Delhi, Lucknow, or Kanpur. :) That is hardly what I would call a failure. Please keep trying with your shotgun approach; you are bound to hit something eventually.

511 Ranjit & Madani,

I dont know abt the official line of the GOI but my understanding is this:

In theory a nuclear state can disintegrate. Eg. Soviet Union.

If breaking up of Sindh helps India or not is important. Eg. Bangladesh

Balochistan becoming thick Green is a deliberate attempt by Islamabad. This is a repetition of (to enrgeen) of Pak`s NWFP policy in Balochistan. (Here I am not recounting the main strands of superpower game in Afghanistan). Any malcontent (from Isloo`s pov) of liberal/secessionist snowballing in these regios can be offset by the aggressive radicalism. NWFP is the case in point. Btw they didnt want these aggressive radicalism in Punjab.

Pl see the long-term plans of Islamabad. They want to resettle Afghan refugees in Baochistan. They halped Mulah Omar/dadullah to recruit in Baloshistan. This policy has already spread this mild Talibanism in Balochstan. Since it wont affect Pakistan in the short-term but it helps Pakistan to neutralise separatism in the garb of mild Talibanism.

I prefer a more subtle analysis esp from Sadna here.

Re:ahmedmadani
[..What is Indian position about Sindhi nationalism. ...]

As far as I know, India has no interest in this matter. First of all, it is impossible for Sindhis to break off given the military strength of Pakistan and the presence of nukes. It could escalate into a nuclear conflict. Secondly, if something happened, refugees would pour into India. Either way it is not going to benefit India.

On the Balochi matter, I believe the mirchi is being done by the Afghanistan government more than Indians, as a counter to the Taliban angle of Pakistan. India might be providing material help or logistical help, as a way to tie down the Pak army there so that it loses focus from Kashmir and Afghanistan. I dont believe India really wants Balochistan to break away. It just wants to create some discomfort to the Pak army to relieve pressure in Kashmir.

Re:raw_dust
[Ranjit: I had heard (not sure how accurate it is) that Liaquat and company intentionally planned all the muhajir settlements in Karachi in order to create a political constituency for himself.....]

That is exactly right. Liaquat routed the UP muslims en masse to urban Sindh to create a demographic power base for himself in Paki politics. The idea was to take over property left behind by Sindhi hindus and/or to force out the hindus still remaining there, while at the same time reestablish a new UP in Pakistan. It is a testament to Sindhi muslims that the hindus did not vanish completely from Sindh. Now Sindhi muslims look at the conditions of Sindh and they get tears in their eyes. If the hindus had remained there, Sindh would have become a beacon of prosperity and culture, rather than what it has become today in Karachi. Basically Liaquat made a complete ch*tiya of the Sindhi muslims...

#494 Salim Chauhan
[I disagree with you that I would probably be categorized as supporting Step 4. Ideally, I would hope that I support Step 1 or even Step 2, but certainly not Step 3. I could be a pragmatist and compromise with Step 4 - as long as you change the statement ``and the world should be divided accordingly`` to ``and the world should be united accordingly - recognizing both democracy and the protection of the rights of all minorities from the tyranny of the majority.]

Sorry Mr. Chauhan for categorizing you in the wrong category. These sort of classifications and categorizations are always oversimplification of facts and they do more evil than good. To save the minorities from the tyranny of the majority I suggest that we should educate our citizens and inculcate the spirit of tolerance, moderation and balance in them.

#495 Kaalchakra
[Beej has a solid model of all socio-politics: All humans are alike, being roughly equally good and equally evil. They have different linguistic, cultural, religious, professional associations, but compete primarily for material resources. Occasionally some greatly evil men (and women) come along who focus their talents on breaking existing bonds and highlighting existing differences. The natural way to do that, is of course, by spreading hate.]

Bolsheviks tried to create a classless and stateless society. In the name of unity and lofty goals they tyrannized and oppressed people from 1917 to 1991 (74 years). The goal of a nation state is the well being of its citizens when this goal changes to “national aggrandizement” then nationalism gives birth to fascism. They united the people of Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia and fought a cold war from 1945 to 1991. Instead of utilizing its resources for the betterment of its citizens they built ICBMs and H-Bombs. In the end it collapsed under its own weight and all that unity forced upon a religiously, ethnically, linguistically and culturally diverse population evaporated in thin air. It is always better to accept the differences and reach an understanding than blaming others for our own misdoings.

#496 BJ Kumar:
[(1) What is the likelihood of the Manto actually being able to convince the vast masses of Pakistanis to his viewpoints and getting elected to a position of power?
(2) What is the likelihood of a liberal, progressive, Pakistan - where women have equal rights and all religions are treated as equal - developing within the next 20 years or so?]

The answer to your first question is that we need to educate our citizens and instill the spirit of tolerance, moderation and balance in them. The answer to your second question is a bit lengthy and I am going to copy/paste one of my essay which I wrote while interacting with Mr. Masadi:

Traditionalism is of two kinds, deliberate traditionalism and unconscious traditionalism. Deliberate traditionalism is a set of rules, customs and traditions made by people for the benefit of the individual and the society with conscious effort and the application of our reasoning faculties. Unconscious traditionalism, on the other hand, is something which creeps into our minds unconsciously and sometimes we are not even aware of it, but it shapes our ideas and ways of thinking.

I consider religion to be a “reformed tradition”. In the 7th century Islam was a step forward from the primitive nomadic culture of Arabia. It united Arabia under one leadership and made it a force to reckon with. Because of this unity Arabs were able to conquer half the world. It gave women their rights. Though slavery was not abolished because it was impossible to do that at that time but the slave owners were ordered to take good care of their slaves and it was considered a virtuous act to liberate slaves. Certain rights were guaranteed to the minorities in an Islamic state. Islam even managed to prohibit gambling, prostitution and liquor which are always and everywhere regarded as immoral and a social nuisance. These were the examples of deliberate traditionalism. A set of laws, customs and moral values which were made for the good of an individual and the society.

But today we live in 21st century. 1400 years have elapsed since the establishment of the first Islamic state in Medina. The society, politics and economy of today’s nation state is much more complex than those simpler times. We cannot find the solutions to all our problems in the Sharia. Neither can we interpret and apply Islamic laws without going into their merits and demerits and using our reasoning faculties. Though Sharia are a set of deliberate traditions but even deliberate traditions are time bound. What holds good today may not hold good for all times and ages.

For example Islam liberated and emancipated women from the primitive tribal customs of Arabia and though it allowed polygamy but discouraged it. Today we cannot allow a male member of the society to have more than one wives because it will be unfair to more than half the population of the world. Similarly today we believe in secularism and the rights of the minorities. We cannot discriminate on the basis of caste, creed and religion. All citizens of a modern nation state must have equal rights and equal opportunities irrespective of their beliefs and religions. By applying our reasoning faculties and the golden rule “do unto others as you have them do unto you” it becomes clear that if you don’t want to get persecuted yourself or the people who hold views similar to your own in a society where they are in a minority then you must not force your views on others who hold opposite or dissimilar views in a society where you are in a majority. This is the essence of secularism. You can persuade people to adopt your views but you can not force people for this purpose.

Finally, I don’t have “an unconditional love for white man and his system of oppression”. The West is facing its own dilemma in the form of disintegration of the institution of family and social and moral evils like drugs, alcoholism, prostitution and pornography. Here in the East we respect our elders and sons continue to live with their parents even after getting married. They donot send their parents to Old Houses when they grow old instead they take care of them. I am not advocating that prostitution and alcohol should be legalized. Not because my faith dictates so. But because I know by using my reasoning faculties that prostitution, pornography, drugs and alcohol are bad for an individual and the society.

Society is in a state of evolution. We have not reached a state of perfection yet and we may never reach that stage. But this doesnot means that we should take a retrogressive stance. We should adopt what is best in time tested traditionalism and also what is good in modernism by applying our reasoning faculties.

#484 Salim Mian

Thanks, I did read the whole agenda of MQM, very impressive.

I wish they work hand in hand with new vibrant and younger Politicians throughout Pakistan and take part in the progress of Pakistan as one unit.

I believe , if, we wish ourselves be progressed , then the only solution is work hard to make whole country developed.

PS:- You have have the potential to be future CE of chowk. We are ready for a change. Just think about it. You have already proved your valid presence on FP.

Re: # 503

What is Indian position about Sindhi nationalism.
GM was told by PM Rajiv he will discourge thoubles they say.
Why Indians are helping BNA and blowing up railways, slectric pylons and gas pipelines.
Same thing can happen to Pakistani pipeline bringing gas near Indian border if blowing happens in B.Stan .