With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective

Aquaris #472, {``Re: # 470
I agree 99% with it. ``}

Aquaris,

Thank you for agreeing with Ranjit Sahib so nearly completely. :) Now I know that my presence in Chowk is making positive contributions to Indo/Pak reconciliation. I feel so worthy. :)

ranjit #470, {``The real mohajirs are people like Abu Safwan and his ilk, especially that ba$tard Liaquat Ali Khan. That is the typical mohajir - virulent to the core against hindus. People like that tried to establish a culture of anti-hindu and anti-India hatred in Pakistan from day one, by subverting the education system and launching blistering propaganda against India. They wanted to grab control over Pakistan in the hope of one day leading a charge against India``}

Ranjit Sahib,
Thank you for your viewpoint. I just want to remind you that Liaquat Ali Khan was from Karnal, Punjab. :) Now, it`s very difficult to consider your rhetoric seriously, isn`t it?

Re: # 470

I agree 99% with it.

``The real reason they wanted Pakistan was their extreme prejudice against hindus. They wanted to reestablish autocratic muslim rule over entire India. They believed that in a democratic, secular united India, their chances were slim``

... Punjabis being short-sighted, or rather, do not think LONG_TERM, Gave them the shoulder they needed to fire the Gun.

the only disagreement

....Unfortunatley they still have not realized it.

#464 Zeena

Thank you little sis! I always knew that YOUR heart is in the right place. :) :)

In view of the all-around positive comments on this article - coming from everywhere, do you agree that we should petition chowk to make Salim mian a featured FP writer?

He clearly has the breadth of knowledge - especially the historical perspective, not only on the subcontinent but on other parts of the world, too, especially Turkey! I think Pakistan could learn a lot from Turkey and hopefully someday emulate its example!

Salim clearly has a sense of humor - he has demonstrated it time and again. It is true that he has gotten into verbal argument with some interactors on UP - but hey, UP IS a different world. One should keep the two worlds - UP and FP separate!

Salim clearly has invested a tremendous amount of time here. I recently scanned through the 38,000 or so current, past and ``deleted`` i-logs on this website and I was impressed to see that approximately half of its volume was directly attributable to Salim mian. Therefore, clearly Salim mian has the time necessary to address a whole range of issues.

Salim has the ability to deal with strong criticism - one can gauge that by reading his response to some of the highly critical interacts on this board - including some of mine!

In fact, I think he will make an excellent CE!

Re:sanatani#469
[..Salim katua is saying now we crewed the Hindus ,Bengalis, Sindhis, Baloch and Pathans and could not not screw the Punjabis let us attempt to break Pakistan by attempting to make friends with our former enemies (enemies these people made themselves by attacking them first) is the breaking up of Pakistan tot the exclusion of Punjabis not an ethnic division? ...]

Sanatani, in spite of the crude language, your analysis is right on the money. The UP muslims always knew that their case against hindu domination in 1947 was laughable given the history of the subcontinent. The real reason they wanted Pakistan was their extreme prejudice against hindus. They wanted to reestablish autocratic muslim rule over entire India. They believed that in a democratic, secular united India, their chances were slim. Therefore, they wanted to create a muslim only country to establish a base, achieve complete control over it and then eventually launch an attack on the rest of India. Do you remember the typical Mohajir slogan - ``Haas ke liya Pakistan. Lar ke lenge Hindustan``?

The real mohajirs are people like Abu Safwan and his ilk, especially that ba$tard Liaquat Ali Khan. That is the typical mohajir - virulent to the core against hindus. People like that tried to establish a culture of anti-hindu and anti-India hatred in Pakistan from day one, by subverting the education system and launching blistering propaganda against India. They wanted to grab control over Pakistan in the hope of one day leading a charge against India. They are the people who always fantasized about planting the paki flag on the red fort. For a while they were succeeding as they managed to get the sindhi muslims and even the punju muslims under their spell.

However, the nefarious dreams of the mohajirs have been shattered for good. The Sindhis and Punjus woke up and realized that they had an ``asteen ka saap`` amongst them, who wanted to subjugate them in their own land. The punjus were in no mood to be ruled by mohajirs. In the ensuing power struggle, the punjus killed Liaquat and later crushed mohajir dreams of dominating Pakistan. Unfortunately the anti-India and anti-hindu virulence was able to gain root, along with the Kashmir issue created by Liaquat. The Punjus foolishly pursued that line till the nineties. It is only recently that the Sindhis and the Punjus have realized that India is not an enemy and that hindus have no interest in dominating anyone. They have now changed their mindsets, which is why we have a peace process today, much to the chagrin of the muhajirs like Abu Safwaans who want to see Indo-Pak and hindu-muslim strife, since that is the only way for them to rally Pakistanis to their basic cause of ruling India.

I am not surprised to see Salim Chauhan talk about reunification and confederaton with India. That is exactly in line with Mohajir ambitions. Since the Pakistan route has not worked, mohajirs have realized that a secular, democratic India is actually a place where muslims could easily call the shots if they had substantial demographics. Their forefathers miscalculated when they thought that a united India would not provide the platform necessary to get power in New Delhi. If they could get back into the game within India, they might still pull off their dream of muslim rule in India. We must be very careful of such intentions. In fact, I think India should exclusively reach out to Punjus in Pakistan and establish cordial, warm relations with them, which are quite possible, while keeping a distance from the mohajirs. The Punjus are not enemies of India - they just want to enjoy their life in Lahore and Islamabad. The Punjus got brainwashed for a while but now have reverted back. The real enemies of India are the people in Pakistan who still dream of muslim rule in Delhi, which is basically a mohajir fantasy only.

Re: # 362

Granted he has got it wrong on Panipat and Gurgaon. It should have been Garh Mukteshwar and Phulpur.

But HP is right on 1 count the Muhajir scum esp the UP variety had it easy (also the Rajsthanis had it much better in fact apart from Alwar, Ajmer and Bharatpur where the rulers had some pride in being Hindu and gave the Muslims a lesson in manners in all othere rajwadas these fkrs made it to Pak under protection DIRECTLY from the Royal Families e.g. all the uncles of the Maharaj of Jodhpur Marwar Baapji escorted the Marwar Muslims to the border where another uncle the Maharao of Amarkot now Umerkot escorted them to where ever they wished to go. All this with Ration and Paani and unlike the Hindus and Sikhs coming from Pakistan with just the clothes on their backs these people went with all their belongings except livestock and it is these people who coined the term Muhajir for themselves as a mark of PRIDE and RESPECT to identify with the original Muhajirs of the peadophile murderer as they were doing Hijrat for the sake of deen)

UP there were riots only when the Hindus started coming in from the West Punjab, so Mr Nehru made it a policy no Hindus will be allowed to cross Delhi and Punjabexcept like my great grandfather who showed oproof of property in Gwalior to be allowed to move there.

Another qstn why did UP not have riots like Punjab in 1947 when it had riots on issues like Shahidganj. Answer to this is in UP the cradle of Pakistan they decided that discretion was the better part of valour. Despited being outnumbered 5 to 1 the Muslims were always evenhanded in riots as in Western UP they had a much higher poulation 33% and were much better organised. The sheer ferocity of the Hindu Sikh response in the East Punjab to the West Punjab NWFP riots and the sheer ferocity of the Hindu response in Bihar to the events in Bengal (where Mr Nehru threatened to Bomb Bihar by air) and the local homegrown riots Garh M and Phulpur where lowly Gops and Kurmis showed the Macho Pathans its not always about size made them decide this.

Now to cut a very long story to just long.

HP Sain is saying and also not saying

The large majority of Muslims from UP who came came after the Ghadar was over

The Muslims of Rajsthan came anyway without Ghadar at all. The people from the above 3 districts mentioned were sent to the camps around Delhi and then they came back to their respective cities after Madar Das had been assasainated allowing for a vicious anti Hindu pogrom by Nehru and this was part of the same strategy

The Muslims of Punjab faced much greater hardship in terms of violence and property destroyed and because they were mostly illiterate they suffered more to get their claims
The UP Muhajirs who came (they were not called Mujairs then) with the help of the Sindhi Muslim fools wrecked havoc on the Hindus of Sindh. The UP Muslims got the money property and women while the Sindhi Muslims got contempt and a grudging thank you from the ones who got MPW (HP probably does not wish to say this but they made a royal choothiya out of his community)

Everything was fine till Bhutto came and thes fkrs who were in the forefront of denying Bengalis Bengali and who formed the bulk of the Razakar Movement in EastPak turned against Butto for 3 reasons:

1) Repatriation of Biharis
2) Provincial Quotas
3) Allowing Sindhi equal status to Urdu

Note no 1 was an afterthought demand to help swell their numbers

Zia to counter the Sidhis encouraged the MQM. To thwart Benazir the ISI in the 1988 elections lavishly funded them and encouraged them to kill Sindhis. MQM got emboldened and killed Punjabis (big mistake) Rangers and Army under first Nawaz then BB broke the back of this extortionist terrorist movement. As happens a few thousand innocenst were also killed but the number dead was lesser than what the Mujairs had done to the other communities.

Now they are saying we are oppressed we are murdered. But didi anyone protest against the killings of the MQM in the late 80`s or early 90`s no.

Indian wet dreams are made up of a division of Pakistan. And a hatred of Jinnah and a love for the Congressi Muslim showboys like Kidwai, Azad and Zak. So suddenly when Salim Chauhan abuses J and praises these Kangress mdrchoods he is god for you.

So Dhimmi Anil says ``Salim`s thesis is indeed weak, but a bold attempt. In today`s times and going forward there is no room for further religious or ethnic divisions`` instead of castigating the rubbish it is for. Salim katua is saying now we crewed the Hindus ,Bengalis, Sindhis, Baloch and Pathans and could not not screw the Punjabis let us attempt to break Pakistan by attempting to make friends with our former enemies (enemies these people made themselves by attacking them first) is the breaking up of Pakistan tot the exclusion of Punjabis not an ethnic division?

Actually this is the problem with us Hindus and esp those of the Dhimmi variety like Anil. They are desparate to see Hindu Muslim unity where none exists e.g. 1857. They will call Mangal Pande a patriot forgetting it was these Mangal Pandes who helped the Brits conquer India. They will cite the mutiny as the 1st war of Independence as a few Hindus foolishly joined an overwhelmingly Muslim effort (in terms of ideology and isnpiration) to restore the Empire to its pristine Ayrangzebi ways much in the way Shah Waliullah ahd asked Abdali to invade India to restore Nizam-e-Mustafa and defeat shirk and Kufr and offered him the wealth of the Temples of Mathura and all the women he could carry as Ghanimeyah for doing his religous duty of a Jehad

Similarly Bj Kumar has called Jinnah names for thre partition violence. Ok let us accept that. But call Gandhi and Names also for the people who die in riots in India as they refuse to do an exchange of population. Somehow they consider this act of leaving a body of traitors insisde the body of the motherland a great patriotic act in the name of secularism so what if a few thousand Hindus are killed every year by them.

Why am I bothering about Salim Chauhan I should bother about Anil and BJ and the other assorted traitors who are unable to see reality and will willingly sacrifice the motherland to slogans of secularism as Gandhi, Nehru and the other bunch of baastaurds did.

Salim katue jise gaal deni hai de I am out of this let me get our own houyse in order.

Fkk u u bunch of traitors and mullah lovers
Sanatani

Anil ma ke lover kabhi haath lag gaya to tere jism ke ethnic or sectarian division jaroor karoonga

Salimbhai

Since these days every Ram, Natthu, and Mahmood seems to be (quite unnecessarily) making a dash for `democracy` (as if that will be a panacea that will turn the world around), let`s acknowledge that Nauman indeed identified a real, genuine problem with democracy:

All said and done, it IS a form of `dictatorship` of the majority.

#460
[ Ms. Zeena, the marathon runner, has never – to the best of my knowledge, repeat NEVER, used abusive language against ANY interactors!}


...never say never...coz that proves your ignorance...

#428 by nauman72

Your questions are not harsh at all. Only by putting your views forward can we expect to resolve any differences. So, please, count me glad to answer these and any other questions you may have.

Q: Was it possible for Hindus and Muslims to live peacefully together, like all “non-majority” communities, under the British Imperialism forever?

No. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Indian Christians and all others formed an overwhelming majority against a tiny ruling class of the white British. There doesn`t seem to be any reason why this tiny population of the country should have held all the power.

Q: Or, did the era of modern nation states, the concept of democracy, self-determination and the “will of the majority” made it impossible to live under a perpetual imperialism, be it of foreign masters or a permanent numerical majority of another religion and a civilization?


This is not a well-formulated question. Could you please clarify the notions of perpetual imperialism and permanent numerical majority? Then, it will be a pleasure to think through this with you. Thanks in advance.

While the land of photocopier Ataturks are busy wasting time writing articles, ilogs, interactions on Chowk it is heartening to read a news item related to the land of original Ataturk. This is from Daily Times.

Sunday, April 15, 2007
300,000 Turks rally against Islamic president

ANKARA: Around 300,000 Turks marched on Saturday to try to stop the ruling AK Party from picking Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan as their presidential candidate next week because of his Islamist roots.

The AK Party has its background in political Islam, and a possible presidency headed by Erdogan has split this secular but predominantly Muslim country seeking European Union membership.

“Turkey is secular and will remain secular forever,” shouted protesters as they waved national flags and banners of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the revered founder of the republic. Tens of thousands of people were bussed into the capital Ankara from across the country to attend the rally organised by a staunchly secularist association in Tandogan square.

Many of the speeches attacked the United States and the European Union, calling on Turks to defend their country – echoing a rise in nationalism over the past year.

“We are warning the deputies in parliament. We are worried that the secular character of Turkey will be removed if Erdogan or Bulent Arinc (AK Party member and parliament speaker) is elected president,” said Huseyin Ozen, a retired teacher.

Erdogan denies any Islamist agenda and says he has broken with his past and is now a conservative democrat. “We are here to defend the republic. We are here to defend the women’s rights which Ataturk gave to us ... I hope Erdogan will not become president,” said Sanem Erdem, a 28-year-old shop owner.

Analysts say the rally will be the last opportunity for secularists to pressure the AK Party to pick a compromise candidate for head of state. reuters

bjkumar sahib

Alright, don`t get riled up. Forget, what I wrote and forget what you said.

Just carry on with what your POV is...........Sorry, for imposing my ideology here.
If, you hate Pakistan and our Quaid-e-Azam.............I will not ask you to love them.

But, I saw Miss Farzana Versey`s today`s i-log, and I believe you have half heartedly apologized to her in the past as per her i-log.

I won`t expect you to apoligize to her again, Just forget it. And be happy.
I am a little emotional person and when I read Miss Versey`s today-s i-log, I got emotional and posted that post to you.

I am not chowk`s moral police and I am not chowk staff, either.

Bye

Re: # 364

Farzana:

[[Anil Wrote: ``Kashmir is not our problem.``, this is a questionable vision whether it comes from you or from Farzana who is trying in the same old mindset to distribute problem.

We all must start seeing it as an opportunity. For example, can spend time to allocate opportunities about Kashmir, instead of distributing problems about it.]]

[FV Wrote: I have always talked about autonomy. Please read what I said. It stated that it has also become a problem for India. And this gentleman I met clearly told me so. We do not need ESP to understand that. We, as in India and Pakistan, have been opportunistic as far as the state goes, and what opportunities can be allocated when basic funds are not and even a road link came after years?]

We both know that our stands on Kashmir are different. Not ESP, Frazana, but pure common sense and reality will drive greater autonomy. Achieving goals through economic development and political reforms is the way.

In this scenario Construction is an opportunity, many years ago I had asked to you could help adopt a Kashmiri Village, all of these are opportunities. Now more than ever, and I along with my friends, would love to adopt a multi-religious village in Kashmir. Can you help? Please do not say these are not opportunities.

I have always believed and stated that greater autonomy within the framework of Indian system (not just the constitution, as system allows its amendments also) will come not just for Indian Kashmir, but all other states in India. In fact many years ago I wrote an essay that was published on Chowk.

The reasons are and shall be economic development and evolution of political system. Although, I have not checked recently, until a few years ago Indian states controlled 50% of India’s GDP, the central government has no control whatsoever. All growth cannot be realized without ensuring state’s involvement. Economic development has been faster, is also transferring GDP to the south. Politics has also changed that no single party can easily form a government in the center. The revenue sharing continues to be based on formula worked out in 1956 by state reorganization commission.

New realities will drive negotiations for new revenue sharing and seat allocations in the parliament, as currently a party / coalition that does not secure majority in the laggard states of the U.P. and / or Bihar cannot form a government in the center. This is absurd, and would have to change. I had concluded in that essay that whatever would the basis or blueprint for the greater autonomy for Kashmir, will also be the basis for devolution of power to states.

[[ANIL Wrote: All of which will be without Jinnah`s TNT or Hindu Mahasabha`s Atut-Ang, or all of which now belong in the heap of time.]]

[FV Wrote: It is strange that anyone can even compare Jinnah (his TNT? Huh?) with the HM.]

Not you of all people, Farzana, you know it too well, that neither my sentence nor my perpetual stand compares Jinnah with HM. I have repeatedly stated my stand that Jinnah is an abandoned Indian hero, who must be restored to his right place in Indian history. Don’t you think you are showing a rush to make a statement here? There is enough proof that without Jinnah’s support TNT had no chance, and without HM, Atut-Ang had no support. These guys took Gandhi’s life, whichever side of the fence you sit on Gandhi, these are undeniable realities.

On Fatwa:
[FV Wrote: It is a known fact that people choose to ignore, and if this was the first time you got to know, then I am glad. If it were an edict to kill, then Rushdie, Taslima and a host of others would have been dead long ago.]

My point is greater Farzana, the burden is on the believers like yourself to insist on the acceptance and enforcement of “Fatwa” as an “advisory” as a definition. Romair, responded as that it is not just an advisory. Merely stating that it is good that I now know, is not enough, I saw a BBC documentary where they had interviewed terrorists who were saying that before they on their missions they always obtain a Fatwa. Like minded Muslim intellectuals and people who can influence the policies should propagate and support enlightened moderation.

#442 by Salim_Chauhan

[They conspired, fabricated, and stage-managed the invasion of Iraq and can only blame themselves for its effects.]

Needless to say, I disagree. I believe that the GWB intervention was made in good faith. The military war was won rather easily. I can not – in good conscience – blame GWB for underestimating the level of inherent animosity within the various Iraqi factions – especially the hatred between the Shias and the Sunnis! Few people in the outside world could.

Yes, the American public has only limited appetite for this sort of thing – and it can only be spending its own money and shedding its own blood only for so long and not in an open-ended manner – to bring democracy elsewhere!

But such a loss of appetite is not something to celebrate, in my view!

Remember, most of the killings are being done by OTHERS! And eventually, when the Americans leave – as looks likelier day by day, those killers will still be there.

Only with less defenders in place!

#447 by Zeena
[You can fine me $50]

Little sis, while you are in a cheerful mood, can I prevail upon you to pay my share too?! Just tell my dear mianji that it is for a good cause! That ought to do the trick! You don’t wish to see me in the chowk slammer, I hope! I am sure that Salim will reduce the fine in my case a bit!

#All interactors

Since the issue has been brought up, let me point out to all those who care that indeed, my little sis – Ms. Zeena, the marathon runner, has never – to the best of my knowledge, repeat NEVER, used abusive language against ANY interactors! The fact that some of her interacts are a bit long-winded should not be considered being “abusive”! it is simply a testimony to her long hours of training for her marathon runs – an activity particularly useful to, if generally disregarded by, the vast majority of (sedentary) chowkies!

#432 by hamidm2

Dear sir, kindly read my #456 one more time!