With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective

#697 by chaudhary on April 20, 2007 1:49pm PT
Re: # 674
{``Mr Chauhan, be thankful to Allah for He gave you the opportunity to prosper in Pakistan. “TAHZEEB” you and your ancestors cherished so much was not even yours. Hindus persecuted Muslims of Bihar and UP for centuries. Muslims were humiliated throughout the history of that area, with the exception of 5 years of Sher Shah Suri’s rule in your part of the country. ``}

Mr. Chaudhary,
I don`t know which history books you have been reading, but I have not read of the humiliation of Muslims at the hands of Hindus in UP and Bihar. From the conquest of Awadh all the way to 1857, Muslims ruled this area and, with some exceptions, had excellent relations with their Hindu neighbors - Wajid Ali Shah and others come to mind. In the 1700s and early 1800s there were some struggles against Mahrattas who invaded from central India. I don`t know what you mean by TEHZEEB not being ours, but then you seem to be bent upon some specific preconceived agenda.

{`Please compare the situation your ancestors lived in India with the position you are holding in Pakistan. You have been dominant part of the Pakistani establishment for the last 60 years. You enjoyed special privileges whether civil or military rule.
Think about how you grab the resources of Pakistan.``}

Once again those who persecute us are adamant on telling us how fortunate we are and how good we should feel. :) Your attitude, along with some other Pakistani Punjabis, is so similar to the Serbs who ran concentration camps in Bosnia, and told western reporters how ``fortunate`` the Muslim inmates were for their superior treatment by the Serbs.

{``Most recent example is 4 New Engineering Universities, three in Karachi and one at Jamshoro. The cost will be about $2.33 billion. Take note of 2.33US$. Pakistan`s Sindh provincial government will provide the land and the Higher Education Commission will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Could you ever dream of having this special treatment in Bihar or UP. Just check Muslim literacy rate in your parent states and think about the misuse of the power entrusted to you by Liaqat Ali Khan. Would you allow interior Sindhis access to these universities? ``}

I am sure that the unfair quotas that pit urban against rural Sindhis will hold sway once again, regardless of how many universities are opened up. We don`t have to dream about education - we believe in it. Don`t forget that the Muslims of UP started the first and most noteworthy private Muslim institution of learning at AlighaRh and yes they allowed many Punjabis to study there. :)

{``Mind it, ``Higher Education Commission`` is a federally funded institution. So much investment for one ethnic group, at the cost of the rest of the people of Pakistan, and you still whine about your rights. ``}

So, we have no problems in Pakistan. Those ``stranded`` in Bangladesh are actually ALL ``Biharis`` from India and they just want to come to Pakistan because Pakistan is the greatest country in the world. ``) Once you vehemently deny Pakistanis, whose only fault is that they are like the Mohajirs of Karachi, you alienate ALL of us and we recognize you for the racist, bigoted, and unfair people that you are. While YOUR cowardly army came back in shame but still alive, thousands of Mohajir ``razakaars`` faced Bengali justice and punishment for the sins of the surrendering Punjabi soldiers. Shame!

Re: # 674
Mr Chauhan, be thankful to Allah for He gave you the opportunity to prosper in Pakistan. “TAHZEEB” you and your ancestors cherished so much was not even yours. Hindus persecuted Muslims of Bihar and UP for centuries. Muslims were humiliated throughout the history of that area, with the exception of 5 years of Sher Shah Suri’s rule in your part of the country.

Please compare the situation your ancestors lived in India with the position you are holding in Pakistan. You have been dominant part of the Pakistani establishment for the last 60 years. You enjoyed special privileges whether civil or military rule.
Think about how you grab the resources of Pakistan.

Most recent example is 4 New Engineering Universities, three in Karachi and one at Jamshoro. The cost will be about $2.33 billion. Take note of 2.33US$. Pakistan`s Sindh provincial government will provide the land and the Higher Education Commission will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Could you ever dream of having this special treatment in Bihar or UP. Just check Muslim literacy rate in your parent states and think about the misuse of the power entrusted to you by Liaqat Ali Khan. Would you allow interior Sindhis access to these universities?

Mind it, ``Higher Education Commission`` is a federally funded institution. So much investment for one ethnic group, at the cost of the rest of the people of Pakistan, and you still whine about your rights.

##688 ranjit {``A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system. ``}

Ranjit Bhai,
Thank you for your excellent response and saving me from charges of blashpemy and atheism. :) I could not have defended myself any better.

#686 imransuhail {``...,, how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)
...still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it? ... so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest. ``}

Imran Bhai,

When I stated that ``Kashmir is not our problem,`` I was addressing Mohajirs and requesting that we focus on our issues and not be side-tracked by our traditionally altruistic nature in supporting others who may be oppressed. We need to be free, secure, and confident ourselves BEFORE we can be in a position to help anyone. Also, yes adding more Kashmiris to Pakistan`s population will simply increase the number of our persecutors. We constantly have this 2% and 5% insignificance thrown at us - as if to justify the strangulation, prejudice, lack of hope, and disappointment that we collectively experience in Pakistan.
Also, the government of Indian-held Jammu & Kashmir is democratically elected with Kashmiris (especially Muslims) holding most of the leading offices of that provincial government. The only problem that I perceive is the presence of hundreds of thousands of occupying Indian troops - something that the Indian Kashmiris have in common with their brethren across the LoC. We in Karachi resent and abhor the occupation of anyone`s homes and cities by external forces who happen to be cruel, insensitive, and corrupt due to their own bigotry. So much for ``Mohajirs and non-Mohajirs`` being brothers. Curiously, whenever it suits Punjabis, we Mohajirs are called ``brothers`` and even ``fellow Pakistanis.`` But when the situation changes we become ``HindustaaNRans, Panah Guzeer, and Muttarwas.`` :(

#685 imransuhail {``...if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do? Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?``}

Imran Bhai,

First of all, allow me to correct you in your false assertion that Punjabis are not racists. Please observe the postings here on FP, and even more openly and shamefully expressed on Unplugged, by leading Pakistani Punjabis on Chowk - Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Chacha Buttees, Khamkhwa, Urstruly, and others. While I had heard of hateful terms like ``HindustaaNRA and Panah Guzeer,`` I was not at all familiar with words like ``Muttarwa.`` For some reason, Punjabis love to lump ALL Mohajirs as ``Biharis,`` as if that is supposed to be some form of a collective insult. The more you do that, the more we appreciate our Bihari brothers and sisters and our determination to bring ALL Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh back home to Karachi/Hyderabad.

Then, there is some self-styled delusion among Punjabis that they are ``fairer`` than Mohajirs. My response is that it betrays a deep-seated inferiority among Punjabis (many of them are quite swarthy themselves). Finally, in this 21st century, the answer is simply ``who cares?`` Thank you for your several interesting posts and an opportunity to engage in a positive dialogue with you.

#683 imransuhail {``... Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories??? ...a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. They unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Imran Bhai,
Minority groups in Pakistan are going to continue blaming the Punjabis as long as Punjabis pursue their unrealistic goals of hegemony and domination. The oppressed people will continue to detest the Punjabis as long as the Punjabi-dominated Paki army continues to commit violence, murders, rapes, looting, and arson in the homes of Pakistanis who happen to be non-Punjabis. Have you noticed that this Paki Army has NEVER committed the violence and murders at the scale that it has perpetrated its oppression against Bengalis, Mohajirs, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Pathans - now it is quite active in AK, Gilgit, and Baltistan. Imran Bhai, if you get your Punjabi soldiers to behave themselves, the oppressed people will stop hating Punjabis - it is as simple as that. :(

#686 imransuhail {``is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God... while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.``}

Imran Bhai,
I think that you are making a fantastic leap from secularism to atheism and I am not prepared to go that route. One can be religious personally and secular publicly - not because one wants to promote atheism or commit blasphemy. Being religious is a personal matter of choice and faith. Being secular is a necessary compromise for the sake of peace, tranquility, civility, and preservation of human life. We all know what happens when religious people try to force their passion and faith on others - extremist Jews, Crusades, Reformation, Protestant Revolt, Almohades, Almoravides, Kharijites, Qarmatians, Spanish Inquisition, Karbala, Communism, Anti-Mormon violence, Aurangzeb`s rule, persecution of Sikhs by several Mughals, partition of `47, illogical and unfair ruling against Ahmedis, Tally Ban, current suicide bombings all over the world - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, India and elsewhere, and finally RSS/BJP/VHP/SS/BD/SS/JS violence in India.

#682 by Zeena on April 19, 2007 10:41pm PT
{``Salim Mian
I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions. ``}

Zeena, my good friend,
Thank you for being a key supporter and a very polite, dignified, and objective participant. :)

#680 giani_240 {``Salim Mian,
your article and the various interacts remind me of the clarion call given by MAJ about the Muslim and their ``survival`` in Hindu India albeit yours is Mohajirs and survival in Pakistan.
In the past you have expressed that MAJ and partition were wrong. Could it be that you are wrong now? ``}

Giani Sahib,
Of course! I could be wrong about any suggestion - especially one involving separation. After all, the partition of `47 gave us the problems of the past 60 years. That is exactly why I offered several alternatives and cautioned that such decisions have to be made after great thought and even more debate. Thanks for offering your perspective. :)

#679 teshah {``.. I liked Mr. Altaf as he debunked this ‘theory’, but his fuming against feudalism does not make any sense to me. Perhaps by feudalism he meant all Non-Bhayyan sons of the soil who are now the victims of this Matarrua-gardi led by MQM``}

Dear Teshah,
Thank you for your feedback and I can sympathize with and even share your frustration. I think that the MQM fuming against feudalism is sincere. I also believe that most Mohajirs support poor serfs in Punjab and Sindh as these oppressed people toil under the yoke of the cruel chaudhrys, vaderas, and feudal landlords. What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?

Re:imransuhail
[...is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government....]

Imran, a lot of muslims tend to interpret secularism as ``removing God`` from government. In fact, they think being secular means being an atheist. That is a completely wrong concept. A secular system is simply a system that will not declare any religion or sect as the ``official or state`` religion/sect. The actual legal system in a secular country will most likely be derived from a religious basis anyway, since social norms are based on that. For instance US law is based on judeo-christian values. However, neither judaism nor christianity is a state religion in the US. Declaring one faith or sect as a state religion creates an environment of discrimination for people who do not belong to it, since they become second class citizens.

Even in Islam, you have multiple sects and sub-sects like sunnis, shias, barelvis, deobandis, ismailis etc. These sects and sub-sects have a common value system derived from Islam and also several variances, which are actually strong enough for people to kill each other. A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system.

Re: # 684

HP,.... you wavent pointed out what is confusing about my statements? i think they are clear and straight forward, in an easy to understand laguage :)

``Kashmir is not our problem.``

<<<<< how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)



``It already has democratic institutions and self-government.``

<<<<< still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it?



``If for some God-forbidden reason, it becomes a part of Pakistan, Kashmir can become a problem for us. It will put our Indian relatives in a precarious position once again and will only add to the numbers among the “Sons of the Soil” ready for our persecution.``

<<<<< so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a
minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest.

if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do?
Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?

#681 by imransuhail

``I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith).``

``I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue
:)``

That would be interesting to see someone continues this discussion with you. But how are they first going to make some sense out of your two above referenced statements?

if someone says they arent for unity neither for division it means the will let whatever is happening to keep happening. In two opposeites only one is right. One who does not suppor twhat right is by default supporting whats wrong.

There is not such thing is being neutral. As a matter of fact mohajir leaders have never been neutral in the political history of pakistan.

How can racists claim to be neutral? Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories???


``it is the Pakistani Punjabis who are playing the role of the Serbs this time.`` <<<<<<<<<<<< what do you mean by punjabis?? are you accusing every punjabi? it is the govts which take decissions brother. Welcome to reality, pakistan is a dictatorship where every one dictates his will to his subordinates. Dont mislead the people by pointing towards the benefitors rather than looking at the stupid laws and failed systems of government which cause such injustice.

a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. The unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified