With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective

re: Salim_Chauhan #718

The discussion about Karnal opens a new vista in this debate. The province of UP didn`t exist before 1902. A lot of migrants poured into Pakistan from this state in late 40s and early 50s. But there were also people from Gujrat-Kathiawar, Ajmer, Kerala, Bihar, Hyderabad and Bombay who migrated to Pakistan in late 1950s.

Salim, would you be kind enough to define what you precisely mean by a ``Mohajir``? Is this a linguistic identity or a geographic one? Is it an eternal identity or an ephemeral one?

re: Salim_Chauhan

A couple of days ago you stooped to the level of comparing me with a Roman soldier without clothes :)) Now that was personal attacks and character assassination.

I write these lines in the hope that the person reading them is capable of engaging in a mature discussion without getting defensive or resorting to racist remarks :)

Re: # 716

You turd,

Zeemax is right. A fool like you accepts posts like #248 without a whimper.
And runs crying & wailing to mommy at the earliest...

{``Karnal was in Punjab province at the time of the 1947 partition. It is now in Haryana``}

Salim,

Liaqat wasn`t born in 1947 and Karnal only became part of Punjab in 1902. Before that it was part of the North Western Provinces of Agra & Oudh. The Sikh empire ended at river Sutlej so even Delhi (and Patiala) was part of North Western Provinces. The same North Western Province of Agra and Oudh was named UP in 1902.

Since Liaqat was born in 1896, he was not a Punjabi by domicile. Nor was he Punjabi by descent.

His father Rustam Ali Khan was landlord who lands were spread across UP and part of east Punjab. Liaqat started his political career in 1926 in the UP Legislative Council. All his life he contested elections from UP. Even in the epoch-making 1945 elections, Liaqat won from Meerut (which is in UP).

#717 HisExcellency {``Instead of recognizing facts, the author pursued his agenda of distancing Mohajirs from this era. Even silly statements were made. For example, the author informed us that Liaqat Ali Khan was Punjabi. (He was actually born at Karnal in UP).

Your Excellency,
Karnal was in Punjab province at the time of the 1947 partition. It is now in Haryana. Just this one gross mistake on your part is a clear indication of your twisting of geographical, historical, and sociological facts that you have misrepresented to further your ethnic, racist, and bigoted agenda.

If you are caught making such an outlandish representation, is there any point in responding to the rest of your nonsense? Your attempt to classify me as an Indian Hindu or a post `71 Mohajir is merely an admission that your arguments have failed and now you are engaging in character and personal assassination to cause mischief. I categorically declare that I am NOT a Hindu, or an Indian, but a Mohajir from Karachi with a diverse ancestry consisting of Rajput, Iranian, and Turkish grandparents.

Here is proof that Karnal is NOT in UP:


``Karnal is one of Historical Districts of Haryana. It is also known as a city of `Daanveer Karn`. It is known all over the world for production of Rice, Wheat and Milk. It is also known for agriculture research Institutions like NDRI, CSSRI, Wheat Research Directorate, National Bureau of Animal Genetics Resources, Sugarcane Breeding Institute etc.

LOCATION
Karnal is important city on Delhi Ambala Rail Line & Sher Shah Suri Marg (G.T.Road), connected with all important places in the country. It is 123 Kilometer from Delhi & 130 Kilometer from Chandigarh.

Karnal District lies on the western Bank of river Yamuna which once flows about 11 Kilometer. to the east forming eastern boundary of the district. The river Yamuna separates Haryana from Utter Pardesh. The Karnal Distt. including Panipat lies between 29`09`50`` and 29`50` North latitude and 76 31` 15`` and 77 12`45`` East longitude, its height from sea level is between 235 and 252 meters. The Karnal Distt. is surrounded by Kurukshetra District on its north-west, jind & Kaithal Distt. on its west, Panipat Distt. on its south and Utter Pradesh on east.``

Karnal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses of Karnal see Karnal (disambiguation).
Karnal, Haryana, India
Karnal
Coordinates: 29.42° N 77.02° E
Time zone IST (UTC+5:30)
District(s) Karnal
Coordinates: 29.42° N 77.02° E
Karnal pronunciation (help·info) (Hindi: करनाल) is the headquarters of Karnal District, Haryana, India. Karnal is said to have been founded by the Kauravas at around the time of the Mahabharata epic for the king Karna, a key figure in the epic tale. It is 123 km from Delhi on the National Highway NH-1 (also called the GT Road) and 126 km from Chandigarh. Karnal is known for the manufacture of shoes, the production of basmati rice and for its many agricultural research institutions.
...
Geography
Karnal is known for its lush greenery. It is roughly equidistant from New Delhi and Chandigarh and lies not only on the NH-1 road but also on the Delhi to Ambala railway line. The city is divided into several sectors, colonies and mohallas. Due to its geographical location several group housing companies like Sahara, Narsi Village, Palm Residency and Ansal Royale have built new luxury apartments and villas in the city.

The views expressed by Salim Chauhan in this article represent a sociopath mindset that justifies its self-imposed isolation by resorting to perverted facts and historical revisionism.

The author asserted that Mohajirs face bloodshed, massacre and oppression at the hands of Punjabis. Yet he failed to provide historical or contemporary evidence of these massacres ever been taken place.

The author also failed to recognize that Mohajirs dominated the country`s bureaucracy during its first decade and therefore must share responsibility for any deeds (or misdeeds) committed during the formative years (1947-71).

Instead of recognizing facts, the author pursued his agenda of distancing Mohajirs from this era. Even silly statements were made. For example, the author informed us that Liaqat Ali Khan was Punjabi. (He was actually born at Karnal in UP).

The author also asserted that since most of the major players in 1971 crisis were non-Mohajirs, therefore Mohajirs must have been ``uninvolved`` in this episode. But what about the thousands of Mohajir bureaucrats who administered East Pakistan and several federal ministries? Could the military government headed by Yahya Khan function without the support of these civil servants? And what was the agenda behind singling out Punjabis when at least two of the major players (A.A.K.Niazi and Z.A.Bhutto) were non-Punjabis? Is it perhaps because the author is extremely prejudiced against Punjabis? Or is it because he is an Indian Hindu with limited knowledge posing as a Mohajir?

There were ofcourse Mohajir players in this crisis. General Rahimuddin, born at Kaimganj in UP, presided over the special court that tried Mujib for sedition in Faisalabad. The honorable general delivered a death sentence to Mujib, which was never carried out by Bhutto. So much for Mohajir neutrality :)

Historical revisionism was in full gear when the author asserted that Urdu tehzeeb was superior to Punjabi tehzeeb. Punjabi literature actually emerged 3 centuries before Urdu literature and ventured into social commentary much before Ghalib, Mir and Akbar Allahabadi`s era.

The funniest part of the author`s commentary was that he did not mention the post-1971 era!!! All his arguments and assertions related to the East Pakistan crisis and role of razakars.

The author skirted a discussion of APMSO, Sohrab Goth riots, Operation Cleanup, 1990 elections, the MQM split, Afaq Ahmed, MQM boycott of 1993 elections, bhatta policy of MQM, extra judicial killings, Altaf`s statements against Jinnah, the role of Mohajir general Usmani in Kargil and MQM`s election reversals in 2002.

Who expects a discussion of Mohajir issues to revolve only around 1947 and 1971 ???Perhaps an Indian Hindu. Because these are the only dates that stick in his mind. The first date represents an emotional trauma. The second represents the only military victory that a Hindu army has achieved during the last 4 centuries.

The limited nature of his arguments reinforces doubts about Salim`s identity. He is perhaps an Indian Hindu masquerading as a Mohajir, or a Mohajir who migrated from Pakistan back in the 70s :))

Chowk Staff:

Please read interact # 705 by zeemax. He says `` you shit `` .
Kindly remove him from this website as soon as possible to guarantee the integrity of this
website.

Respectfully submitted

number

#713 Number

(add-on)

However, if you read #706 again, no response has been sought from you. :)

Thank you and enjoy your walk down the garden path! :)

#713 Number

BJ Kumar

Re: # 706

Dear Mr. bjkumar:

I will respond to your interact after you tell me who you are. It is only fair since you know who
I am. If you do not want the world to know who you are, you may e-mail me:
asadulla@vsnl.com

Respectfully submitted

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

Re: # 705

I will respond to your interact after you tell me who you are. It is only fair since you know
who I am. If you do not want to tell the world who you are, you can tell me via e-mail:
asadulla@vsnl.com

Re: # 689

Salim Bhai

You raised the question:

``What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?``

First I would explain what I mean by `Matarrua`.

By it I mean the UP walaa Muslim migrants who invaded the newly established state of Pakistan in the garb of `Mahajareen`, like the Western hordes had invaded newly found America, to grab the properties left by the non-Muslim Pakis who were obliged to migrate to India mainly due to the hatred created against them by the very Matarruas.

As regards the feudals and vaderas of Punjab and Sindh, the fuming of Altaf, I am afraid, is very sinister with the ulterior motive of dividing the Punjabis and Sindhies. How can he be considered sincere in this respect when he is allied with the Wadera-in-Chief who is also a semi-matarrua and is relying on the same feudals and vaderas to perpetuate his rule and dominance of matarruas or what I called `mataura gardi`?

#704

Dear Dr. Asadulla,

(Kindly forgive my lack of competence in Urdu)

Iss anjuman mein aap-ko
Aana hai baar-baar
Deewarey-dar ko gaur se
Pehchan lijiye...!

#704 by number,

I know who you are. You`re a mehdiite for someone you call mehdi buried near Kabul or thereabouts ... you shit ..

Re: # 703

Dear Mr. Chauhan:

Thanks for telling me what ISLAMIST is. I am a muslim and not an ISLAMIST.

Regards,

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

#702, Dear Dr. Asadulla Sahib,
I think that more and more people are associating the word ``ISLAMIST`` with those who want to redefine everything in terms of their perception of ``ISLAM.`` Especially, it refers to people who want ``ISLAM,`` as defined by them, to govern everything including government, laws, economics, entertainment, dress, customs, marriage, behavior, education, and even sports. These people tend to be very vocal and consider force, including violence, as legitimate means to attain their goals. I consider it to be a negative word, because it uses a positive term such as ISLAM to mutilate it into a justification for evil. :(

Re: # 676

Dear Mr. Chauhan:

I am not sure if this interact will be published since you have concluded this forum.
Please ignore my ignorance and tell me what is an ISLAMIST.

I hope and pray that soon our three countries will be reunified and we will live a decent human
life (Aameen)

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

Salim Mian


For your big SUCCESS on front page.

Will look forward for another article by you on front page.

Take care

As we conclude this forum, I want to thank ALL the participants for their excellent feedback, interesting viewpoints, and useful suggestions. Also, I enjoyed hosting this dialogue and want to express my gratitude and surprise at the mostly polite, civil, and thoughtful exchange. Khuda Hafiz, Namastay, and Till we Meet Again. :)

Here is what I find so amazing. Many Pakistani Punjabis want to stress that Mohajirs have never had it so good. Mohajirs dominate Pakistan. Urdu has been ``forced`` upon the rest of the country. Mohajirs should stop complaining, and in fact, return most of what they have ``unfairly`` amassed in Pakistan - including their underserved education and literacy. :)

Mohajirs, OTOH, complain about the unfair quotas that pit rural Sindh against urban Sindh. They stress that no such urban/rural divide exists in Punjab, NWFP, and Baluchistan. Mohajirs make a big deal out of the fact that the Pakistani Army Rangers, mostly Punjabis, were cruel, bloody, insensitive, and very biased in the way they occupied Karachi and Hyderabad. The Punjabis punished the local Pakistanis, mostly Mohajirs, with collective punishments and cruelty reminiscent of the acts of another generation of Punjabi soldiers in East Pakistan.

Maybe the truth lies in the fact that partition was the evil that split up a cohesive Punjab and brought together two distinctly separate people who had no business coming together. :(

#697 by chaudhary on April 20, 2007 1:49pm PT
Re: # 674
{``Mr Chauhan, be thankful to Allah for He gave you the opportunity to prosper in Pakistan. “TAHZEEB” you and your ancestors cherished so much was not even yours. Hindus persecuted Muslims of Bihar and UP for centuries. Muslims were humiliated throughout the history of that area, with the exception of 5 years of Sher Shah Suri’s rule in your part of the country. ``}

Mr. Chaudhary,
I don`t know which history books you have been reading, but I have not read of the humiliation of Muslims at the hands of Hindus in UP and Bihar. From the conquest of Awadh all the way to 1857, Muslims ruled this area and, with some exceptions, had excellent relations with their Hindu neighbors - Wajid Ali Shah and others come to mind. In the 1700s and early 1800s there were some struggles against Mahrattas who invaded from central India. I don`t know what you mean by TEHZEEB not being ours, but then you seem to be bent upon some specific preconceived agenda.

{`Please compare the situation your ancestors lived in India with the position you are holding in Pakistan. You have been dominant part of the Pakistani establishment for the last 60 years. You enjoyed special privileges whether civil or military rule.
Think about how you grab the resources of Pakistan.``}

Once again those who persecute us are adamant on telling us how fortunate we are and how good we should feel. :) Your attitude, along with some other Pakistani Punjabis, is so similar to the Serbs who ran concentration camps in Bosnia, and told western reporters how ``fortunate`` the Muslim inmates were for their superior treatment by the Serbs.

{``Most recent example is 4 New Engineering Universities, three in Karachi and one at Jamshoro. The cost will be about $2.33 billion. Take note of 2.33US$. Pakistan`s Sindh provincial government will provide the land and the Higher Education Commission will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Could you ever dream of having this special treatment in Bihar or UP. Just check Muslim literacy rate in your parent states and think about the misuse of the power entrusted to you by Liaqat Ali Khan. Would you allow interior Sindhis access to these universities? ``}

I am sure that the unfair quotas that pit urban against rural Sindhis will hold sway once again, regardless of how many universities are opened up. We don`t have to dream about education - we believe in it. Don`t forget that the Muslims of UP started the first and most noteworthy private Muslim institution of learning at AlighaRh and yes they allowed many Punjabis to study there. :)

{``Mind it, ``Higher Education Commission`` is a federally funded institution. So much investment for one ethnic group, at the cost of the rest of the people of Pakistan, and you still whine about your rights. ``}

So, we have no problems in Pakistan. Those ``stranded`` in Bangladesh are actually ALL ``Biharis`` from India and they just want to come to Pakistan because Pakistan is the greatest country in the world. ``) Once you vehemently deny Pakistanis, whose only fault is that they are like the Mohajirs of Karachi, you alienate ALL of us and we recognize you for the racist, bigoted, and unfair people that you are. While YOUR cowardly army came back in shame but still alive, thousands of Mohajir ``razakaars`` faced Bengali justice and punishment for the sins of the surrendering Punjabi soldiers. Shame!

Re: # 674
Mr Chauhan, be thankful to Allah for He gave you the opportunity to prosper in Pakistan. “TAHZEEB” you and your ancestors cherished so much was not even yours. Hindus persecuted Muslims of Bihar and UP for centuries. Muslims were humiliated throughout the history of that area, with the exception of 5 years of Sher Shah Suri’s rule in your part of the country.

Please compare the situation your ancestors lived in India with the position you are holding in Pakistan. You have been dominant part of the Pakistani establishment for the last 60 years. You enjoyed special privileges whether civil or military rule.
Think about how you grab the resources of Pakistan.

Most recent example is 4 New Engineering Universities, three in Karachi and one at Jamshoro. The cost will be about $2.33 billion. Take note of 2.33US$. Pakistan`s Sindh provincial government will provide the land and the Higher Education Commission will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Could you ever dream of having this special treatment in Bihar or UP. Just check Muslim literacy rate in your parent states and think about the misuse of the power entrusted to you by Liaqat Ali Khan. Would you allow interior Sindhis access to these universities?

Mind it, ``Higher Education Commission`` is a federally funded institution. So much investment for one ethnic group, at the cost of the rest of the people of Pakistan, and you still whine about your rights.

##688 ranjit {``A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system. ``}

Ranjit Bhai,
Thank you for your excellent response and saving me from charges of blashpemy and atheism. :) I could not have defended myself any better.

#686 imransuhail {``...,, how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)
...still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it? ... so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest. ``}

Imran Bhai,

When I stated that ``Kashmir is not our problem,`` I was addressing Mohajirs and requesting that we focus on our issues and not be side-tracked by our traditionally altruistic nature in supporting others who may be oppressed. We need to be free, secure, and confident ourselves BEFORE we can be in a position to help anyone. Also, yes adding more Kashmiris to Pakistan`s population will simply increase the number of our persecutors. We constantly have this 2% and 5% insignificance thrown at us - as if to justify the strangulation, prejudice, lack of hope, and disappointment that we collectively experience in Pakistan.
Also, the government of Indian-held Jammu & Kashmir is democratically elected with Kashmiris (especially Muslims) holding most of the leading offices of that provincial government. The only problem that I perceive is the presence of hundreds of thousands of occupying Indian troops - something that the Indian Kashmiris have in common with their brethren across the LoC. We in Karachi resent and abhor the occupation of anyone`s homes and cities by external forces who happen to be cruel, insensitive, and corrupt due to their own bigotry. So much for ``Mohajirs and non-Mohajirs`` being brothers. Curiously, whenever it suits Punjabis, we Mohajirs are called ``brothers`` and even ``fellow Pakistanis.`` But when the situation changes we become ``HindustaaNRans, Panah Guzeer, and Muttarwas.`` :(

#685 imransuhail {``...if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do? Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?``}

Imran Bhai,

First of all, allow me to correct you in your false assertion that Punjabis are not racists. Please observe the postings here on FP, and even more openly and shamefully expressed on Unplugged, by leading Pakistani Punjabis on Chowk - Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Chacha Buttees, Khamkhwa, Urstruly, and others. While I had heard of hateful terms like ``HindustaaNRA and Panah Guzeer,`` I was not at all familiar with words like ``Muttarwa.`` For some reason, Punjabis love to lump ALL Mohajirs as ``Biharis,`` as if that is supposed to be some form of a collective insult. The more you do that, the more we appreciate our Bihari brothers and sisters and our determination to bring ALL Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh back home to Karachi/Hyderabad.

Then, there is some self-styled delusion among Punjabis that they are ``fairer`` than Mohajirs. My response is that it betrays a deep-seated inferiority among Punjabis (many of them are quite swarthy themselves). Finally, in this 21st century, the answer is simply ``who cares?`` Thank you for your several interesting posts and an opportunity to engage in a positive dialogue with you.

#683 imransuhail {``... Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories??? ...a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. They unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Imran Bhai,
Minority groups in Pakistan are going to continue blaming the Punjabis as long as Punjabis pursue their unrealistic goals of hegemony and domination. The oppressed people will continue to detest the Punjabis as long as the Punjabi-dominated Paki army continues to commit violence, murders, rapes, looting, and arson in the homes of Pakistanis who happen to be non-Punjabis. Have you noticed that this Paki Army has NEVER committed the violence and murders at the scale that it has perpetrated its oppression against Bengalis, Mohajirs, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Pathans - now it is quite active in AK, Gilgit, and Baltistan. Imran Bhai, if you get your Punjabi soldiers to behave themselves, the oppressed people will stop hating Punjabis - it is as simple as that. :(

#686 imransuhail {``is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God... while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.``}

Imran Bhai,
I think that you are making a fantastic leap from secularism to atheism and I am not prepared to go that route. One can be religious personally and secular publicly - not because one wants to promote atheism or commit blasphemy. Being religious is a personal matter of choice and faith. Being secular is a necessary compromise for the sake of peace, tranquility, civility, and preservation of human life. We all know what happens when religious people try to force their passion and faith on others - extremist Jews, Crusades, Reformation, Protestant Revolt, Almohades, Almoravides, Kharijites, Qarmatians, Spanish Inquisition, Karbala, Communism, Anti-Mormon violence, Aurangzeb`s rule, persecution of Sikhs by several Mughals, partition of `47, illogical and unfair ruling against Ahmedis, Tally Ban, current suicide bombings all over the world - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, India and elsewhere, and finally RSS/BJP/VHP/SS/BD/SS/JS violence in India.

#682 by Zeena on April 19, 2007 10:41pm PT
{``Salim Mian
I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions. ``}

Zeena, my good friend,
Thank you for being a key supporter and a very polite, dignified, and objective participant. :)

#680 giani_240 {``Salim Mian,
your article and the various interacts remind me of the clarion call given by MAJ about the Muslim and their ``survival`` in Hindu India albeit yours is Mohajirs and survival in Pakistan.
In the past you have expressed that MAJ and partition were wrong. Could it be that you are wrong now? ``}

Giani Sahib,
Of course! I could be wrong about any suggestion - especially one involving separation. After all, the partition of `47 gave us the problems of the past 60 years. That is exactly why I offered several alternatives and cautioned that such decisions have to be made after great thought and even more debate. Thanks for offering your perspective. :)

#679 teshah {``.. I liked Mr. Altaf as he debunked this ‘theory’, but his fuming against feudalism does not make any sense to me. Perhaps by feudalism he meant all Non-Bhayyan sons of the soil who are now the victims of this Matarrua-gardi led by MQM``}

Dear Teshah,
Thank you for your feedback and I can sympathize with and even share your frustration. I think that the MQM fuming against feudalism is sincere. I also believe that most Mohajirs support poor serfs in Punjab and Sindh as these oppressed people toil under the yoke of the cruel chaudhrys, vaderas, and feudal landlords. What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?

Re:imransuhail
[...is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government....]

Imran, a lot of muslims tend to interpret secularism as ``removing God`` from government. In fact, they think being secular means being an atheist. That is a completely wrong concept. A secular system is simply a system that will not declare any religion or sect as the ``official or state`` religion/sect. The actual legal system in a secular country will most likely be derived from a religious basis anyway, since social norms are based on that. For instance US law is based on judeo-christian values. However, neither judaism nor christianity is a state religion in the US. Declaring one faith or sect as a state religion creates an environment of discrimination for people who do not belong to it, since they become second class citizens.

Even in Islam, you have multiple sects and sub-sects like sunnis, shias, barelvis, deobandis, ismailis etc. These sects and sub-sects have a common value system derived from Islam and also several variances, which are actually strong enough for people to kill each other. A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system.

Re: # 684

HP,.... you wavent pointed out what is confusing about my statements? i think they are clear and straight forward, in an easy to understand laguage :)

``Kashmir is not our problem.``

<<<<< how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)



``It already has democratic institutions and self-government.``

<<<<< still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it?



``If for some God-forbidden reason, it becomes a part of Pakistan, Kashmir can become a problem for us. It will put our Indian relatives in a precarious position once again and will only add to the numbers among the “Sons of the Soil” ready for our persecution.``

<<<<< so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a
minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest.

if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do?
Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?

#681 by imransuhail

``I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith).``

``I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue
:)``

That would be interesting to see someone continues this discussion with you. But how are they first going to make some sense out of your two above referenced statements?

if someone says they arent for unity neither for division it means the will let whatever is happening to keep happening. In two opposeites only one is right. One who does not suppor twhat right is by default supporting whats wrong.

There is not such thing is being neutral. As a matter of fact mohajir leaders have never been neutral in the political history of pakistan.

How can racists claim to be neutral? Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories???


``it is the Pakistani Punjabis who are playing the role of the Serbs this time.`` <<<<<<<<<<<< what do you mean by punjabis?? are you accusing every punjabi? it is the govts which take decissions brother. Welcome to reality, pakistan is a dictatorship where every one dictates his will to his subordinates. Dont mislead the people by pointing towards the benefitors rather than looking at the stupid laws and failed systems of government which cause such injustice.

a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. The unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Salim Mian

I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions.

Wonderful!!!

``Thank you for sharing your sincere comments and ideas with us.`` <<< you are most welcome brother.


``I can understand your devotion to Islam, but believe me, I see Islam as the basis of personal morality for certain individuals (including myself). :)`` <<< here is the difference in approach. Reality is different than the philosophical thinkings like ``i see it this way, you see it the other, we are both right``. When talking about real things the mature discussion leads to one of the two parties admitting that they are wrong and accepting the RIGHT thing. Islam cannot be what u think and what i think both. Islam is islam. If u think involving islam in politics, government, education, judiciary etc is degradory towards it, then that is your opinion. It doesnt mean you are right. Im not even going to say that you are wrong because that generally triggers egoistic defense. I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith). No muslim who has the basic knowlege of islam can truly disagree with this. U can say that u think apples are spicy in taste, but that opinion cannot be correct as it is as established fact that apples are generally sweet, sometiems a little sour or tastless. similarly rational thiking and islamic references like quran and hadith (which i hope u dont reject) define clearly what islam is and what its basic laws and systems are.


``especially when the legal regulations and guidelines have not and cannot change.`` <<< what is the flaw in having a perfect law which doesnt NEED to be chagned in general conditions. When you say they have not changed can cannot change, you are wrong my friend. If you look at islamic history you will clearly see many so called ``stone etched`` laws of islamc being moulded or abandoned due to certain conditions. I gave you an example: In the time of Omer bin khattab (2nd khalif) there was a drought, and food was scarce.... there came a point when people were stealing food from wherever they could to stay alive. The punnishment for stealing was abolished on the grounds that the state will do whatever is in ites power to better the situation and get food for the people, during that time no one can be charged with stealing if they steal food. The state compensated the people whose food was stolen and rectified the situation within no time and re-implemented the law when they had done their reponsibility.


``I am now a firm believer in secularism in the public domain and Islam as a personal choice for me without oppressing others with my own happiness.`` <<< is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.

The believers of the second should understand that God by definition has infinite intellect and infine powers. God exists without time and knows that future and past and present at the same time. Worldly restrictions do not apply to him because he is God. Isnt it then just wishfull thinking to think that humand can make laws better than God`s laws?

I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue :)

Salim Mian,

your article and the various interacts remind me of the clarion call given by MAJ about the Muslim and their ``survival`` in Hindu India albeit yours is Mohajirs and survival in Pakistan.

In the past you have expressed that MAJ and partition were wrong. Could it be that you are wrong now?

giani

#610 by Salim

Sorry dear! Sometimes I feel so frustrated so as to loose my temper. I have seen three generations of Pakies pass by but even today I find this so called citadel of Islam in doldrums. This shows that a nation the identity of which is based purely on politico-ideological bases can never find a stable and peaceful country, watan or des, just as a home to live in peacefully. This reminds me of the stand of Moulana Mahmoodulhassan, Abulkalam , etc., visa vis, the demand of the Muslims of India on the bases of their nationality as Muslims. They were of the view that a nation`s identity is based on its country (wattan) and not vise versa as propounded in the so called Two-Nation Theory.. I liked Mr. Altaf as he debunked this ‘theory’, but his fuming against feudalism does not make any sense to me. Perhaps by feudalism he meant all Non-Bhayyan sons of the soil who are now the victims of this Matarrua-gardi led by MQM. So we are afraid sad days lie ahead for the people of Pakistan who have lost even their national identity as Muslims the day second amendment converting the constitution of Pakistan into a `Takfiri Fatwa` was passed when their claim even to call them Muslims was made questionable, subject to an insulting `Halaf-Nama` to become `Halfi Muslims`.

#674, His Excellency, {``This explains the Hindustoora jeers :) The underdeveloped tehzeeb of 2% of population didn`t find too many takers amongst the 98% population with richer cultures. ``}

Your Excellency,
If it had we would not have honor killings, karo kari, gang rapes, hudood ordinance, Tally Bans, and suicide bombings as the dominant Paki culture. :)

{``Yes and no. Bengalis (54%) outnumbered Punjabis (27-30%) in population. But Punjab was larger in area (22% vs 15%) ``}

So what, Baluchistan is by far the largest in area - much larger than even Punjab. :)

You are all over the map, Sir. I am sorry but you are bent upon twisting history, facts, and issues just to malign the victims and present the oppressors as the ones who have suffered. Here are some concerns I have with your rebuttal:

How could 2% of the Pakistani population impose their language on the remaining 98%?

How could Mohajirs in Pakistan and Urdu-speaking Muslims in India impose Urdu as the lingua franca of India and the language of Bollywood?

How could Mohajirs have been the rulers of Pakistan in the first decade after partition, when Liaquat Ali Khan, Ghulam Mohammad, Chaudhry Mohammed Ali, and Feroz Khan Noon, were all Punjabis and the others, Nazimuddin and Mohammad Ali Bogra were Bengalis - not one Mohajir among the early rulers of Pakistan. Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Bhutto, Zia, Bezamir I, Besharif I, Bezamir II, Besharif II were also not Mohajir. Musharraf is the first Mohajir ruler of Pakistan.

Your Excellency, you are taking a very jingoistic ``my side is always right`` attitude. Your excuses regarding the Geneva Convention, Mohajirs taking over Pakistan, Mujib not winning elections, Bhutto being given a mandate by West Pakistan, the political leanings of Wali Khan and the NAP, are all deliberate attempts by you to cloud the main issue - the unrelenting selfishness of Punjabis to dominate Pakistan and suppress all dissent and opposition.

number #673 {``Dear Salim Chauhan Sahib:

Assalamu alaikum o rahmathullahi o barakathahu:

I am assuming that you are a muslim. ... Let me congratulate you on the fine article and let
me tell you that I agree with every word of the article. I find something unique about you.
You have responded to almost every interactor. Great work.

... I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do something to brighten the future, like re-unification. ``}


Dr. Asahdulla Sahib,
Thank you for your kind comments and for joining in this discussion about Mohajirs` past and future. Alhamdolillah, yes I am fortunate to be a Muslim - but not an Islamist. I advocate religion on a personal basis (or the absence of religion on a personal basis). I do not think that religion should be demeaned by making it the overseer of commerce, industry, politics, or even education.

I tried to respond to each post addressed to me and some mean-spirited detractors on Unplugged have accused me of ``hogging`` the forum. I think that if someone takes the time to read my article, offer some feedback, pose some questions, or even disagree with my perspectives, I have an obligation to respond as politely and sincerely as possible.

As for reunification, I have my own positive views, but for it to become a real solution for BOTH countries, an absence of jingoism and a presence of mature thinking with a sprinkling of common sense are prerequisites. I don`t think that either Indians or Pakistanis have yet attained that level of advanced thought. :)

number #673 {``Dear Salim Chauhan Sahib:

Assalamu alaikum o rahmathullahi o barakathahu:

I am assuming that you are a muslim. ... Let me congratulate you on the fine article and let
me tell you that I agree with every word of the article. I find something unique about you.
You have responded to almost every interactor. Great work.

... I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do something to brighten the future, like re-unification. ``}


Dr. Asahdulla Sahib,
Thank you for your kind comments and for joining in this discussion about Mohajirs` past and future. Alhamdolillah, yes I am fortunate to be a Muslim - but not an Islamist. I advocate religion on a personal basis (or the absence of religion on a personal basis). I do not think that religion should be demeaned by making it the overseer of commerce, industry, politics, or even education.

I tried to respond to each post addressed to me and some mean-spirited detractors on Unplugged have accused me of ``hogging`` the forum. I think that if someone takes the time to read my article, offer some feedback, pose some questions, or even disagree with my perspectives, I have an obligation to respond as politely and sincerely as possible.

As for reunification, I have my own positive views, but for it to become a real solution for BOTH countries, an absence of jingoism and a presence of mature thinking with a sprinkling of common sense are prerequisites. I don`t think that either Indians or Pakistanis have yet attained that level of advanced thought. :)

#673 by number on April 19, 2007 11:55am PT

Dear Syed Asadulla Sahib:

You are making statements that contradict each other.

You see, no digging - no benefits!

Digging in the past is what this web-site is all about. What good are we going to get from it? What is done can not be undone, but there are lessons to be learnt and if you do not learn them, those lessons will have to be relearnt in the future anyway - at a higher price.

Why is it so difficult not to figure things out based on common sense? Because this is a gathering of ``intellectuals`` - chowk style! And those who have suspended such common sense (e.g., mian Yasser) are the aspiring leaders of your land!

[I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do something to brighten the future, like re-unification.]

Other than Mr. Chauhan, you are the only other interactor who has even suggested this idea. (Perhaps the two of you are one and the same?) :)

There will never be any reunification because the underlying current of suspicion and exclusivity remains, it has strengthened over time and what was one land has become two different people who are headed in two different directions. One of those two is headed downhill - I need not tell you which:

...like a snowstorm heading for hell!

Respectfully submitted.

BJ Kumar

#667 Salim_Chauhan

{``this some subtle desire of yours to compare me with dead villains- I hope that you don`t detest e that much.``}

Dead villains is a Mohajir expression. I prefer the less subjective description i.e. ``Pitiable sociopaths``. They are sociopaths because their megalomania and insecurities render them incapable of social integration. With your racist tirades, you weren`t expecting me to compare you with Mandela, were you? :)

{``the bulk of this country was comprised of Bengalis and NOT Punjabis``}

Yes and no. Bengalis (54%) outnumbered Punjabis (27-30%) in population. But Punjab was larger in area (22% vs 15%) and constituted larger chunk of GDP. More importantly, Punjabis were 65% of West Pakistani population. If your Mohajir ancestors wanted to keep one language for both wings, they should`ve picked either Bengali (or Arabic or English). If they wanted two languages for the two wings, they should`ve picked Bengali and Punjabi. But the Mohajir elite picked a language spoken by only 2% of the population. They kept the reins of government in their own hands and shunted non-Urdu speaking people out of the echelons of power for more than a decade.

Mohajir apologists blame Jinnah for the language riots. Never mind that Jinnah died just 15 months after creating Pakistan. The Mohajir-dominated bureaucracy ruled Pakistan for another 11 years until Ayub`s military coup. They had ample time to address the language issue.

{``If we Mohajirs had our way, we would have ``forced`` some TEHZEEB into you instead of Urdu``}

This explains the Hindustoora jeers :) The underdeveloped tehzeeb of 2% of population didn`t find too many takers amongst the 98% population with richer cultures.

{``So now the Mohajirs took over Pakistan, its businesses, its institutions, and then looted, killed, murdered, raped, and tortured poor hapless Sikhs and Hindus - driving out the surviving ones into India?``}

Correction. Your Mohajir ancestors took over Pakistan, its business and its institutions after the Punjabi Mohajirs had suffered at the hands of Sikhs and Hindus.

{``We all know that the terrible suffering, slaughter, rape, and abduction were perpetrated on the Sikhs and Hindus of West Punjab by Muslim Punjabis. So, who now is rewriting history to suit one`s conclusions?
``}

We also know about the Muslim students paraded nude, raped and burnt by Sikhs in East Punjab... and dozens of trains to Pakistan carrying Muslim families arsoned by Hindus & Sikhs. Isn`t denying the suffering of these Punjabi Muslims an attempt to revise history???

{``since when did Rawalpindi or Islamabad become centralized centers of Pakistan for logistics reasons``}

Rawalpindi was the largest military garrison in British India and headquarters of Northern Command since 1886. It became GHQ of Pakistan Army in 1947 :) There was no point in setting up government in Multan (10 hours away from Pindi by road) and Karachi (2 days away). And besides, the development of Islamabad also helped develop the northern areas. Karachi was already a developed city, overpopulated and vulnerable to attack by sea. Islamabad is safely surrounded by mountains. Moreover, Islamabad was a planned city with clearly marked diplomatic enclaves, government blocks and residential areas. If keeping Pentagon/White House/Capitol Hill close to each other makes sense for the Americans, there is no reason why Pakistanis should not.

{``Very few Mohajirs were fighting anywhere - except serving as officers in the Punjabi-dominated Pak Army. the Ghazi ``Tiger`` Niazi head of the surrendering force was Punjabi.``}

What were these Mohajirs doing in the Punjabi Army in the first place? They weren`t conscripts, were they? :) If Punjabis were 65% of West Pakistani population, and West Pakistan provided bulk of the Army, what is so surprising about finding more Punjabi generals than Mohajirs or Pathans? Now who is spinning demographics to weave conspiracy theories here?

{``...escort them into friendly POW resorts in India``}

Pakistani soldiers were sent by the government and protected by Geneva Convention and military protocols. Sikh soldiers weren`t exactly bonding with their Pakistani counterparts. They were following the established norms which BTW Pakistan Army also followed six years earlier in the 1965 war. Armies follow these norms because they know that soldiers only carry out orders. Military Strategy and policy decisions are made by generals or presidents. Thanks for your intelligent comments :)

{``Bhutto only carried majorities in Punjab and Sindh and in fact NAP...was victorious in NWFP and Baluchistan``}

Correction: NAP only won in Baluchistan. In NWFP, it won only 3 out of 25 national assembly seats. Even in provincial elections, NAP did not carry NWFP since it only won 13 out of 40 seats. Bhutto at least won 1 national assembly seat in NWFP and could rightfully claim to represent West Pakistan with 81 out of 138 seats. What right did Awami League have to speak for Pakistan when they didn`t win a single seat in West Pakistan? Bhutto`s consensus building efforts during the framing of 1973 constitution speak volumes about his ability to take everybody along. Mujib on the other hand had adopted an uncompromising attitude and put up demands he knew West Pakistanis could never accept. That was the purpose of his demands.

{``NAP allied with Awami League``}

Salim mian, Mohajir News Network is not giving you fair and balanced khabrain :) NAP never allied with Awami League before or after the elections. Wali Khan just met Mujib on March 23rd, 1971 along with politicians from other parties to offer their token support in forming a govt. He said he was doing this only to avert a military operation. The offer was too late and half-hearted. Try reading history for a change, because writing it isn`t really working for you :)

{``The rest of your post is full of even more untruths and does not merit a rebuttal``}

I can rebut any arguments posed my way without insulting my interlocuters or accusing them of being anti-Punjabi, et al.

Dear Salim Chauhan Sahib:

Assalamu alaikum o rahmathullahi o barakathahu:

I am assuming that you are a muslim. Please forgive me if I am wrong. Everybody knows
who I am. I will interact only with those who have their real names on chowk. It is only fair.
Please forgive me for being late in interacting with you. I was waiting to read all the interacts
before interacting, but it will be too late. Let me congratulate you on the fine article and let
me tell you that I agree with every word of the article. I find something unique about you.
You have responded to almost every interactor. Great work.

How long are we going to dig in the past? What good are we going to get from it? What is
done can not be undone. I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do
something to brighten the future, like re-unification.

Respectfully submitted.

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

#665 by klpd on April 18, 2007 3:44pm PT
{`Re: # 664
hs - salim is a divider - no concept of united we stand - salim wants to turn pakistan into another yugoslavia - is that what the mohajirs stand for?``}

Dear klpd:

Good analogy, except that it is the Pakistani Punjabis who are playing the role of the Serbs this time. I am interested in neither dividing nor uniting - I just seek fairness, justice, compassion, and peace. I hope that most Mohajirs would share those goals. :)

imransuhail #668 {``Its easy to blame others and keep following the agendas of the ``outsiders`` to keep us divided, but if one truly understands what is causing all the problems then it is a matter of common sense to know the solution or that there is a solution. ``}

Imran Sahib,
Thank you for sharing your sincere comments and ideas with us. I can understand your devotion to Islam, but believe me, I see Islam as the basis of personal morality for certain individuals (including myself). :) I think that degrading Islam to the level of government, courts, education, divorce, marriage, inheritance, and public rules is both unfair and very restrictive - especially when the legal regulations and guidelines have not and cannot change. I am now a firm believer in secularism in the public domain and Islam as a personal choice for me without oppressing others with my own happiness. Thanks. :)

Re: # 669

Hmmmm... that`s pakiland`s national song?... well, then what the heck is YLH ranting and raving for so long for?... Islam is coded into pakiland`s formation - not that there was ever any doubt about it, but since the national song talks about ``islam ka sipahi`` and ``mohammad ka something``, then where is the confusion?

Jamia Hafsa girls are right... zeena and zeemax are right... it`s high time, pakiland was completely islamized...

Re: # 649 Manto

``...Mohajirs, Bengalis and Sindhis... were always way ahead of the Punjabis in their intellectual and political development...``

Gandhi would never have made such a bigoted statement. In the meantime, enjoy this fine fine song. Note the references to `Islam ka sipahi`!
CIAO!

You said: ``We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution`` <<< why? does singapore contain a perfect society? has sangapore solved the poblems of the people or divided society them into 2 factions: extremely backward and extremely progressive???

Comming towards your extremist/moderate opinions, you make it sound like there are only 3 kinds of people in pakistan. The islamic extremists (whose freedoms of expression like their clothing and their freedoms of belief arent acceptable to you although you seem to support such democractic concepts), the secular-modernized people, and the mahajirs.

When a non-mqm karachi resident seen mahajirs, he sees the mahajir supporting these notions of racism, anti-islam concepts, etc. I am a (real) mahajir too. My family actually migrated from india unlike many mqm followers in karachi. Still i am enlightened enough to see that the problems we face may be dissimilar to those faced by other elsewhere in pakistan, or areound the world but i understand that these problems are linked as they stem from the same root. Its easy to blame others and keep following the agendas of the ``outsiders`` to keep us divided, but if one truly understands what is causing all the problems then it is a matter of common sense to know the solution or that there is a solution.

The root-of-evil that i point to is the capitalist ideology which is served to the world in different flavors. The europeans got it in the ``secular democracy`` floavor, muslims are getting it in ``moderate islam`` flavor. The ideals and basic concepts remain the same. The same ``freedom of ownership`` is projected behind things like freedom of religion, freeodm of speech and choice of ruler to people who are dumb enough to think that these things arent allowed in other ideologies.

I take the example of islam. The islamic state provided security, welfare, growth, freedom of speech, etc to its citizens regardless of their religious affiliations. Jews prospered in the caliphate when they were looked down upon and persecuted by the catholic europe. Islam gives the conept of a house of elected representatives of the people which advise the ruler and legislate based on evidences and facts rather than the personal likes and dislikes of its members.

So i ask the question, why do we hide behind neutrality and support the flagbearers of capitalism ontly to say that we arent religious extremists? Why cant we learn and teach others about the only stable and progressive system of govt that lasted for 1000 years?

Are we hypocrites when we say ``i testify that there is no God but Allah`` and still keep His revelation and his prophet`s examples out of our life`s affairs???

#663 by HisExcellency on April 18, 2007 12:53pm PT
{``The trouble with Salim`s version of history is that it is ``His Story``. This is the kind of writing that one can associate with Slobodan Milosevic or perhaps Cho Seung-Hui. ``}

Surely you can`t be serious, Your Excellency. Is this some subtle desire of yours to compare me with dead villains - I hope that you don`t detest e that much. So, who now is making extravagant and outlandish comparisons?

{``Mohajirs appear in this story as a savior class, that single handedly created Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis comprised the bulk of this country and bore the brunt of bloody partition. ``}

Once again you are mistaken. At the time of the bloody partition, the bulk of this country was comprised of Bengalis and NOT Punjabis - but you guys changed that within 24 years. So, who now is cooking the books and fudging with the numbers? :(

{``The Urdu language, spoken by 2% of the population, is declared national language of Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis accept this language without protest (unlike the Bengalis) despite being 70% of West Pakistani population. ``}

Will you please leave the poor Urdu language alone? It`s bad enough that you guys constantly butcher this sweet language, but do you have to whine about how bhayyas from UP and Bihar ``forced`` you guys to ditch your own Punjutalk and adopt Urdu as your language. If we Mohajirs had our way, we would have ``forced`` some TEHZEEB into you instead of Urdu. So, who now is manufacturing perceived abuses?

{``Mohajirs next bless this country by taking over its businesses, evacuee property, educational institutions and bureaucracy. Never mind that they refuse to allocate public funds to agriculture, which employs 60% of the workforce and 70% of GDP. ``}

So now the Mohajirs took over Pakistan, its businesses, its institutions, and then looted, killed, murdered, raped, and tortured poor hapless Sikhs and Hindus - driving out the surviving ones into India? Come on, Your Excellency, you know that this is an evil lie and that you are going to have to pay for this malicious act in the hereafter. :( We all know that the terrible suffering, slaughter, rape, and abduction were perpetrated on the Sikhs and Hindus of West Punjab by Muslim Punjabis. So, who now is rewriting history to suit one`s conclusions?

{``All is bliss in Salim`s Pakistan because Mohajirs are running the country from Karachi.
But then suddenly an evil Pathan president decides to move the capital from Karachi to Islamabad, just to suppress Mohajirs. Never mind that in other countries, state and local governments are not located in major cities for logistic reasons. In Mohajir Tales, such common sense actions cannot occur. Everything happens for only one reason... oppression of Mohajirs. ``}

Your Excellency, since when did Rawalpindi or Islamabad become centralized centers of Pakistan for logistics reasons? Please take a look at the map - if the capital had been moved to Multan, I may have agreed with you. So, who now is spinning a yarn?

{``Next in Salim`s epic, Mohajirs use Aladin`s magic lamp and vanish from national scene vanish between 1970 and 1971. Never mind that they are still over-represented in bureaucracy and financial sector of Pakistan. Never mind that they are fighting in the Pakistan army and along side the army as razakars in East Pakistan. ``}

Very few Mohajirs were fighting anywhere - except serving as officers in the Punjabi-dominated Pak Army. Even the Ghazi ``Tiger`` Niazi head of the surrendering force was Punjabi. I have already mentioned the ``razakars`` and their sorry fate in my article. Of course, the razakars did not have compassionate, friendly fellow Punjabi Sikh conquerors like Jagjit Singh Arora to escort them into friendly POW resorts in India. The razakars were tortured, killed in great numbers, and forgotten right there in East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. So, now who is twisting the facts to lump the war criminal cowards of the Paki Army with the razakars, who at least paid for their sins?

{``Mohajir`s reappear after the war. The magic lamp runs out of oil. Now Mohajirs can distance themselves from a war they were very much part of. ``}

Of all the major players in the East Pakistan tragedy - Bhutto, Yahya, Mujib, Tikka Khan, Rao Ferman Ali, Ghazi Tiger Niazi, and Wali Khan, how many were Mohajirs? So, now who is spinning another tale?

{``Another villain enters the scene in this Mohajir bedtime story. A sindhi leader with an overwhelming mandate tries to address the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs by introducing a 20-year Quota system in jobs and educational institutions. Never mind that interior Sindh was poor and underdeveloped. Who cares whether Sindhis (or for that matter any part of Pakistan) live or die? All that matters is that a couple million Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad should get into universities, banks, govt departments and corporations.``}

Another fabrication on your part, Your Excellency. Which ``Sindhi leader with an overwhelming mandate`` are you talking about? Bhutto only carried majorities in Punjab and Sindh and in fact NAP, allied with Awami League in East Pakistan, was victorious in NWFP and Baluchistan. Bhutto was NEVER elected to any office in Pakistan. He used the previous wins in only two provinces to take over Pakistan as a ``democratically`` elected leader. The real winner was Mujib. In 1977, Bhutto rigged the elections and the rest is history when MahaPunju Zia Owl Hag threw a necktie party for the egomaniac. So now, who is stretching the truth until it`s a blatant lie?

The rest of your post is full of even more untruths and does not merit a rebuttal. You make sweeping statements but forget to check the gross errors you build as your foundation. After such an intelligent discussion based mostly on facts and experiences, it is disappointing to read your rhetoric. :(

#661 saharanpur {``Dear Salimbhai
What a refreshing,invigorating article.
Yes I 100% agree that 1947 Partition was biggest blunder committed by UP muslims & Jinnah.
But u shud thank Gandhi/Nehru for allowing the illiterate,impoverished and mainly rural 2 Crore muslims to still remain in UP &India.All elite n educated muslim gladly migrated to the ummah heaven.Just imagine the catastrophe for UP muslims if there entire population had t perforce migrate to Pakistan/bangladesh like HIndus/Sikhs in Punjab/Sind having no links with their ancestral land n graves.`]

Dear Brother Saharanpuri,
I love that name Saharanpur - the city on the Jamuna on the border between undivided Punjab and UP. :)
Thank you for enjoying the article and your feedback. Yes, partition was probably the most stupid act performed by utterly selfish leaders and an even more selfish departing viceroy. If millions upon millions of rural and poor UP wallas, Biharis, and others HAD to migrate to Pakistan, then there probably would have been no Punjabi ``majority`` that some interactors here seem to point out in every other post. :)

Re: # 664
hs - salim is a divider - no concept of united we stand - salim wants to turn pakistan into another yugoslavia - is that what the mohajirs stand for?

re: Salim

{{We should not get involved in this pernicious civil strife}}

Only if Mohajirs want to lose their relevance in present-day Pakistan.

If Mohajirs can`t set aside their prejudices and join hands with ``fun-loving`` PPP liberals, then Mohajirs aren`t really as secular as you think. Genuinely secular parties don`t let history and cultural differences stand in the way of great causes. These petty issues didn`t prevent Jinnah`s AIML from reaching out to Fazle Haq`s KPP and Sikander Hayat`s Union Party in 1940s.

Musharraf, MQM, PPP, ANP and several members of PONM have a natural anti-Mullah alliance. They can only hurt themselves by going their separate ways in the face of a unified Mullah platform.

The trouble with Salim`s version of history is that it is ``His Story``. This is the kind of writing that one can associate with Slobodan Milosevic or perhaps Cho Seung-Hui.

Mohajirs appear in this story as a savior class, that single handedly created Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis comprised the bulk of this country and bore the brunt of bloody partition.

The Urdu language, spoken by 2% of the population, is declared national language of Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis accept this language without protest (unlike the Bengalis) despite being 70% of West Pakistani population.

Mohajirs next bless this country by taking over its businesses, evacuee property, educational institutions and bureaucracy. Never mind that they refuse to allocate public funds to agriculture, which employs 60% of the workforce and 70% of GDP.

All is bliss in Salim`s Pakistan because Mohajirs are running the country from Karachi.
But then suddenly an evil Pathan president decides to move the capital from Karachi to Islamabad, just to suppress Mohajirs. Never mind that in other countries, state and local governments are not located in major cities for logistic reasons. In Mohajir Tales, such common sense actions cannot occur. Everything happens for only one reason... oppression of Mohajirs.

Next in Salim`s epic, Mohajirs use Aladin`s magic lamp and vanish from national scene vanish between 1970 and 1971. Never mind that they are still over-represented in bureaucracy and financial sector of Pakistan. Never mind that they are fighting in the Pakistan army and along side the army as razakars in East Pakistan.

Mohajir`s reappear after the war. The magic lamp runs out of oil. Now Mohajirs can distance themselves from a war they were very much part of.

Another villain enters the scene in this Mohajir bedtime story. A sindhi leader with an overwhelming mandate tries to address the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs by introducing a 20-year Quota system in jobs and educational institutions. Never mind that interior Sindh was poor and underdeveloped. Who cares whether Sindhis (or for that matter any part of Pakistan) live or die? All that matters is that a couple million Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad should get into universities, banks, govt departments and corporations.

Flash forward ten years. Now the Mohajirs are angry that they have to share Karachi with people from other parts of Pakistan. Never mind that Karachi belonged to Sindhis before Mohajirs moved in 50 years ago. But now it belonged to Mohajirs. And only Mohajirs. So Pathans must pay a price for taking over transport business. How dare a Pathan rickshaw driver kill a Mohajir girl even by accident? Entire Pathan communities must be punished in Sohrab Goth.

The Mohajir epic turns funnier still. Army, intelligence agencies, Punjabis, Chaudhries, Feudals, Bureaucrats, Waderas and Pakistan are now conspiring against Mohajirs. Never mind that Army and intelligence agencies themselves helped Mohajir leadership stand up to Benazir. Never mind that Mohajir leadership has been running Karachi for over 20 years unfettered by Punjabis, Army, Sindhis, waderas, ISI, bureaucrats, chaudhries, et al.

The villains and tragedies in this sob story never change. Baseless allegations are hurled but never proven. Hate is justified but never analyzed. Fortunately, many Mohajirs have grown tired of this fiction. The Qaid-e-Tehreek has been compelled to go ``Muttahida`` instead of ``Mohajir``.

Let`s see whether a generation raised on Mohajir particularism is now capable of graduating to national politics or not.

#486 by Salim_Chauhan

{{Punjab`s brave soldiers have been busy committing that kind of violence in East Pakistan, et al}}

Umm.. there`s a big difference between a national army comprising 50-60% Punjabi soldiers... and a Mohajir political party comprising 100% Mohajir criminals. But let`s say we accept your little analogy here for a second...

What were the Mohajir and Pathan soldiers doing at that time? Writing protest letters to the New York Times? Or were they arresting Bihari razakars for assisting the Punjabi soldiers? :)

You don`t suppose there weren`t any Mohajir soldiers at all, do you? Musharraf, K.M.Arif, M.Usmani. Moinuddin Haider and Aslam Beg didn`t fall from the sky after 1971 did they??

Dear Salimbhai

What a refreshing,invigorating article.

Yes I 100% agree that 1947 Partition was biggest blunder committed by UP muslims & Jinnah.

But u shud thank Gandhi/Nehru for allowing the illiterate,impoverished and mainly rural 2 Crore muslims to still remain in UP &India.All elite n educated muslim gladly migrated to the ummah heaven.Just imagine the catastrophe for UP muslims if there entire population had t perforce migrate to Pakistan/bangladesh like HIndus/Sikhs in Punjab/Sind having no links with their ancestral land n graves.

Today those 2 crore hv nicely multiplied to 20 crore and r directly /indirectly selecting CMs N PMs in India.

aquaris #659,
Dear Friend,
Thank you for your polite and informative posts. I have benefited from reading your perspectives on the various aspects of this discussion. I appreciate your participation. Kaha suna maaf. :)

Re: # 655

these things have been going on with this Unfortunate god forsaken country,........

since ....... the beggining........ and were then legally santified by the Law under the ``Doctrine of Neccessity ``..... whatever that means.

I am no Fan of Gunjamens or Bezamirs or Mr whatever Percentages..... I think all of them are... KBPD [ Kuttey, Pilley, Billey and Dalley ], Dogs, Puppies, Cats and PIMPS.

Dogs , those who speak their masters voice.
Puppies , the one PETED by the Dogs
Cats , the silent Cruel cold blooded Hunters
and PIMPS, who do the various wheeling and dealing , at the expence of Ordinary polity, without any regard to ...........................Anything.



.....for you other Point about 26 Families, no they were not 26, But 22.

and No we are not one of them, we were small time traders, and still are.
.... I personally have now Left , all the worldy persuits.

Period.


thank you,for your patience, this will be my LAST interact on this Board, I have already taken more space then I intended.... But please do consider , in your hour of solitude or lonilenss, whenever, the things I have said, and you will find a ring or truth in them.

In the end, I appologize , if any one has been offended, BUT, this is What I honestly believed what happened to this god forsaken unfortunate country.

thanks again.

#648, HP {``Btw, can you name me one yes, one intellectual giant that has come out of Urdu speaking from Karachi or even in India? The last mohajir literary or intellectual giant was Ghalib. Since then all you can do is count pygmies elevated to god by minions. ``}

HP,
Jigar Muradabadi for one.
How about Josh Maliahabadi?
I think that Javed Akhtar is pretty damned good.

Then of course we have Farzana Versey - she is really that good of a writer. I love the way she is able to take insignificant events and spin interesting anecdotes and angles that astound everyone. :)

People in Karachi are too busy trying to survive.

#651 aquaris {``My father was born in Calcutta, and my granfather was a bussinessman in Madras, and his brothers , there were 7 of them, had bussiness as far as Peshawar, Dehli, and Dadu , present Sind, beside Lahore and Karachi. ``}

Aquairs,
So you guys are one of the 26 odd families that ZAB was always complaining about? :)

#647 Bulleya {``...Hiding behind Punjabi and Pathan names like Minhas, Shah and Khan may disguise their Muhajir/Karachi identities to many, but not to everyone....... ``}

Bulleya Sahib,

Khoocha Shah Rukh Khan, Salman Khan, A. Q. Khan, Aamir Khan, Feroz Khan, Saroj Khan, Sanjay Khan, Amjad Khan, Qadir Khan, Saleem Khan, Fardeen Khan, Sajid Khan, Mazhar Khan, Sohail Khan, Abrar Khan, Irfan Khan, Irfan Pathan, Zaheer Khan, and Nasiruddin Shah aapkey baap the? :)

There are more Khans in Rohilkhand, Bhopal, Rampur, Shahjahanpur, Malihabad than all the Niswar in NWFP. :)

#653 aquaris {``
By the Way.. The reason Mr Altaf Hussain, despite 100% control over the Govt of Pakistan, is afraid to come back, because he knows what he has sowen in the killing fields of karachi.``}

Aquaris, my friend,
Any truth to the rumor that Bezamir is ready to make a deal with Mushy - support for Mushy as Prez in exchange for having charges against her and Mr. 10% dropped?

#621 by Yasser

As usual you are now resorting to what you know best... lying. But then that is to be expected from someone like you.

Err..when someone is constantly accusing everyone disagreeing with him of lying, it is rather easy to identify the liar (your profession goes well with it..kudos to your dad for identifying this trait early enough to have you trained as a professional). As for my contention that the ML folks were talking about Hindu domination and shedding Hindu blood if Pakistan was not granted, I`ve (as have others) put up enough evidence to support it, while your contentions that Khilafat episode made extremists out of Muslims remain just that.

Re: # 650

By the Way..

The reason Mr Altaf Hussain, despite 100% control over the Govt of Pakistan, is afraid to come back, because he knows what he has sowen in the killing fields of karachi.

WoW!!!

#651 posts and still, many to come..........

Excellent!

Re: # 643

So am I,


you missed the word `` Allege ``


just for you info...

My father was born in Calcutta, and my granfather was a bussinessman in Madras, and his brothers , there were 7 of them, had bussiness as far as Peshawar, Dehli, and Dadu , present Sind, beside Lahore and Karachi.


so don`t try to compartmentalize Me, into your stereotypes.

Re: # 642

your denials are understandable...



and response , typical.

I think what Bulleya is talking about .... though he has messed it up... is that Sindhis, Balochis and Pathans have not reached the sufficient Bourgeoisie levels that are required for a modern democratic state...

I think it is more true of Punjabis than Sindhis though...

Mohajirs, Bengalis and Sindhis... were always way ahead of the Punjabis in their intellectual and political development...

#647 by bulleya

``Granted, the intellectual capacity of Sindhis and Baluchis and Pathans has not reached a stage where they can engage in intelligent discourse (or even non-intelligent discourse),``

Hard to tell if this is sarcasm but if it is not, then this is the most blatant stereotyping one can witness on this site.

Chowk is a small time net magazine and I seriously doubt that 99% posts or 99% articles on this site have some intellectual merit ( barring Mine, of course!). In fact, if chowk is the barometer then I am afraid you ain`t seen nothin.

Btw, can you name me one yes, one intellectual giant that has come out of Urdu speaking from Karachi or even in India? The last mohajir literary or intellectual giant was Ghalib. Since then all you can do is count pygmies elevated to god by minions.

FarzanaVarsey #364: I missed your reply in the stream of so many other replies to this thread. While I appreciate your loyalty in defending your Urdu-speaking predominantly Muhajir elite second cousins, who dominate this site (as the rest of us non-Muhajirs toil away in an intellectually proletariat non-existence), I must point out the inconsistencies in your reply to my factually correction accusations:

``Funny! But not quite right…Chowk management is one half Urdu, one half Punjabi; mostly it is Starbucks Americanese.``

...This, of course, is not true.....Name one pure Pakistani Punjabi in Chowk mgmt (not to mention, one Sindhi, Baluchi or Pathan)....Granted, the intellectual capacity of Sindhis and Baluchis and Pathans has not reached a stage where they can engage in intelligent discourse (or even non-intelligent discourse), but certainly us Punjabi speakers have some intellect. It may be limited, but it is there......Are not the greatest Urdu poets of the 20th century all Punjabi speakers - Faiz and Iqbal to mention a few........

The current and past top mgmt/writers of Chowk is as all Muhajir/Karachi - Saima Shah, Safwan Shah, Umair Khan, Shandana Minhas, Beena Sarwar, Bina Shah, etc. etc........Even the token Punjabi, NHK, actually lives in Karachi........and Ferozek is half Karachi........Not to mention Karachi`s very own Kipling, temporal.......Hiding behind Punjabi and Pathan names like Minhas, Shah and Khan may disguise their Muhajir/Karachi identities to many, but not to everyone.......

``Dost-mittar is already a featured writer.....Veeresh too is a Punjabi, but not the ‘pure’ one…``

Vereesh, we all know, is there for his good looks and not for his Punjabi-ness - pure or impure.......He is the eye-candy which attracts non-intellectuals to this otherwise mediocre looking Muhajir mgmt of Chowk.........

As for Dost-mittar, all I can say is that this is what it had to come down to......80% of the Punjabis of the world reside in Pakistan........Out of the remaining, 15% are Sardarjis, who as we know are even less intellecutally inclined that us Punjabi-speaking Pakistanis (hence they can neither be management nor writers).......This leaves 5% Indian Punjabis.......So out of all the Punjabis in the world, the only two Chowk mgmt could find were Indian Punjabis.......What about Urstruly?.......Why not him?.......Even a broken clock is correct, twice a day...........

The Muhajir mgmt of Chowk could not find a single Pakistani Punjabi to be featured, but found two in India!!!

``Which brings us to ‘across the border’…am glad you have nothing against me.``

Yes, I have nothing against you.........However, I am still curious regarding the passage of the torch from the Urdu-speaking mgmt of Karachi to the Urdu-speaking mgmt. across the border........The ultimate insults to the Sindhis, Pathans and Punjabis on the right side of the border........

``And just to remind you. Something called ‘Jasmines in Colorado’ written in July last year by Umair Raja, a non-mohajir, non-resident Pakistani still spreads its fragrance on the front page!``

Yes, much like Danish Kaneria is a member of the Pakistan cricket team and Condeleeza Rice of the Bush cabinet.......A sole token symbol to hide the Urdu-speaking/Muhajir/Karachi elite biases that those of us living on the wrong side of the ethnic railroad tracks (be it in Toronto, San Jose, or Chakwal) are being told to be satisfied with........Surely, it would not be on the front page, had the main character not been from Karachi........She was originally supposed to be a Punjabi from Lahore..........How in the world could a girl from Karachi be so good looking?.........Hence, I must confess, I was forced, in a moment of weakness, to sacrifice the integrity of my pen, for the seductive lures of fame and fortune......thereby making the main character a Muhajir to play to the egos of Chowk`s Muhajir/Urdu speaking mgmt.........Lo and behold, the story ends up on the front page, when other betters ones with Punjabi references never made it..........

I don not think Mohajir term was started just in 70`s.......I guess it goes way back to the era of Partition................


#600, Zeena,

Thanks, I knew Salim was bluffing..

Almost missed this exchange between bulleya and FarzanaVersey.

#231 Bulleya,
``Who are the Pakistan featured writers on Chowk?........All Muhajirs...``

#364 FarzanVersey,
``Funny! But not quite right...``

The featured writers may be ethnically diverse but are ideologically uniform.
They are all left-of-center secularists.

You can have any color as long as it is ...... pink.

BJK,
Thank you for your appreciation. I wish you a restful and peaceful time off. Spend it well. :)

#634, aquaris {``some allege, that it was MQM`s own doing, to Create FEAR of Survival, and hence Coerce the undecided Mohajir polity, which was skeptic after the First Jalsa of MQM at Nishtar Park, where for the first time, Open display, and not just display but massive
Aerial `Firing , with the AK-47 took place.... about MQM. ``}

Aquaris,
I am really very disappointed in you. Now you are sounding exactly like the Serbs. First they hit Sarajevo`s market place when innocent people had lined up to buy bread. After the heavy mortar attack, with pools of blood everywhere and dead, injured bodies sprawled all over the square, the Serbs` spokesman claimed that the Bosnian Muslims hit their own community just to get international sympathy.

Sir, eventually the Serbs lost and all their cruelty, hypocrisy, and lies are there for all to see. Even Serbs in Belgrade now acknowledge the sins of their extremists. If it can happen to Serbs in Belgrade, it can certainly happen to Punjabis in Lahore. :)

Re: # 634

Lies after lies, and you lied:

{some allege, that it was MQM`s own doing, to Create FEAR of Survival, and hence Coerce the undecided Mohajir polity, which was skeptic after the First Jalsa of MQM at Nishtar Park, where for the first time, Open display, and not just display but massive Aerial `Firing , with the AK-47 took place.... about MQM}

Reminds me of the American lies and deciets in Baghdad, they kill thousands and then blame the Iraqi people or journalists.

Having seen hundreds of casualties myself I find your description of events as malicious and reprehensible, worse than the abusive langauge used by some interactors, if people can be banned on chowk for using abusive langauage and people can be imprisoned for denying the holocaust then u bedichotsmorons like u need to be bhambood with mirch masal and no oil.

#640 Godot

I am ``duty-bound`` not to talk, so I will see you after the ban period is over - or after qayyamat - whichever comes first!

I hope for the latter!

Re: # 639
abay bjk - i keep telling you i am not godot - tujhay kya nightmare hai bay

Salim mian,

Thank you for an entertaining read and some funny (and a few very witty) remarks! It has been fun!

Ciao!

(PS: Mian Godot knows that I still have that great picture. And forever shall! To cherish and admire - and there is nothing he can do about it!)

:) :) :)

#635 Godot

Perhaps I need to pull up the ``retouched`` version of your picture again, mian Godot.

Sure, it will earn me another one of those bans from your buddies in the chowk-staff gang! Who cares.

The last ban was sure worth it!

It is kind of fun to see you squirm, and lick IT up!

Lick it ALL up!

#635 Godot

Yaar, the laugh is on you!

The ``smart`` fellow - who does not list his name.

But posts his picture instead!

And then expects this bunch of morons - the chowk-staff - to ``safeguard`` it!

For the chowk`s ``featured`` writer.

Such a coward!

#632

And Urstruly mian, in case it went over your head, the focus of my recent postings here was not the Chauhan but Chowk-staff.

YOU know chowk-staff!

Your keepers - who will ``keep`` you - when nobody else in the world would!

Who are constipated with the same greenshit that you have liberally sprinkled this site with!

For years and years!

Re: # 632
hahahahahaha - sums up bjk - look at his recent posts - he is showing his true colors - he is the resident turd of chowk

Re: # 609

`` So did they and so did I. Perhaps you were with the oppressors ``

and according to your One of the earlier posts..

`` 4. Massacre of hundreds of Mohajirs, including children, at the hands of Pathan tribesmen in 1986 at Sohrab GoTh with no accountability, trials, investigation of murderers by Zia`s dictatorship.
``

.....I can see HOW ACCURATE YOUR INFORMATION IS .

..... for your kind info....

those Massacres occured NOT in Sohrab Goth, But Aligarh and Qasba Colony, in and near Orangi Town....!!

Qasba Colony incidently is 50% Urdu Speaking 40% Pathans and 10% Other ethnicities...and that is according to the CDGK......!!

..... MQM was to hold a Jalsa At Hyderabad, that Jalsa was supposed to start at about 5PM in the evening, ...... there was an alleged Clash between Mohajirs going to Hyderabad, via superhigh way for the Jalsa and Afghans , mostly drug lords, of AlAsif Square and Sohrab Goth.......

Rumours started of this clash being Bloody, ......info was sketchy, ..... yet it resulted in the Horrible , Massacres at Aligarh and Qasba colony, of the innocents..... later in the evening.......

...... some allege, that it was MQM`s own doing, to Create FEAR of Survival, and hence Coerce the undecided Mohajir polity, which was skeptic after the First Jalsa of MQM at Nishtar Park, where for the first time, Open display, and not just display but massive
Aerial `Firing , with the AK-47 took place.... about MQM.

Period.

..... for more info, please visit the satp`s and fas`s site, also HRC`s site, they have a lot of info on that....

#632

Yaar, you left out the punch line - as listed below.

---

#632 (add-on)

At that point, they were both startled by loud flushing sounds from the nearby bathroom stall, as the sonorous voice of the mullah rang out:

``Don`t go away, hold everything, I need to introduce myself too, just as soon as I am finished wiping myself.

It may take a while, though.

Iss kambakhat kaaghaz ko Papistani Constitution kehte hain!``

Re: # 631

Your fascination with human excrement has reminded me of a joke, which goes like this:

A Muslim and a Sikh met somewhere. The Muslim introduced himself in these words ``khaak dar khaak, aap ke qadmon ki khaak, iss khaaksar ko, Salim Chouhan kehte haiN.``

Upon hearing this the Sikh was taken aback by this elaborate introduction and thought to himself that he must also introduce himself with a rhyming introduction, or he will appear stupid in front of Salim. So that is how he introduced himself, ``gooN dar gooN, aapki gaand ka gooN, iss gaandu ko BJKaur kehte haiN``.

#630 (add-on)

Of course, there is nothing like a well-oiled khaki danda to get that greenshit oozing out in large volumes!

And fill-up Papistani streets with!

To the brim!

#629 Urstruly

Yaar, you guys are full of that greenshit! However, at least you excrete it openly - unlike the people who run this site and most of its writers - who are highly constipated on it!

And always feeling VERY superciliously stuffy!

The current ``protest`` by MQM against the students of Jamiah Hafsa elaborates the game plan of Fauji dictatorship to counter the uprising of people to make Pakistan the Democratic Islamic Emirate. They will use ethnicity and liguistic chauvinism to fight Islam. That is going to be interesting. It is not that this method has not been used before. During the East Pakistan debacle they used sirkari moulvis to counter the Bangali ethnicity and lost. Then they used masses in the name of Islam for Jihad in Afghanistan and caused the collapse of a superpower. This time those masses are being countered by ethnic chouvinists. Interesting indeed.

#Chowk-staff

Dear chowk staff,

In view of your unmatcheable service in the application of chowk guidelines on this board - in your own way, here is a ``I LOVE YOU`` gram.

Enjoy. (Make sure you hold the nose, though!)

#626

Thanks for your concern, yaar! :)

#625 BJKumar {``Therein lies the utter hypocrisy of u and unohu! ``}

BJBhayya,
Forget about all the altruistic rhetoric, I am more concerned about your mental health. :)

#619

Salim, yaar, stop the foolish small talk!

This interactor needs no validation. Not from you, not from your string puller, not from the Papistani crowds, not from the Poop-like slimy Papistanis called ``chowk staff``!

I have not said anything about that ``chowk staff`` bunch of Papistani bastards that you have not said yourself (in your own way) before - so you know very well it is accurate!

But now you are trying to get into their ``good books`` - just like u-no-hu! So you pretend that I am talking less than sense.

Therein lies the utter hypocrisy of u and unohu!

#602 Manto

Thank you for saying the right thing here regarding the ``personal`` nature of some of the attacks. :)

I am sure you, and yours, represent fine human beings. Everything else about you could be improved vastly, of course! :)

However, I never hold my breath waiting for the brown globs of Papistani poops who own and run this site and who call themselves ``chowk-staff`` - to get anything right, or to do anything right - least of all to show any even-handedness in applying those ``guidelines`` - which they only reach for and yank out from ``down there`` just like the Papistani khakis yank out provisions of the 1973 (or other yearly) ``constitution``!

When THEY need it.

Strictly as per their ``doctrine of necessity``!

You know, that term the Papistanis have come to learn....

And love!

Re: # 622, Mantolives,

Kis kis ke `discrimination` ko India ka havala dekar chhupaoge miyan? Bangalion ke, biharion ke, pakhtoonon ke, aurton ke, ahmadiyon ke, sindhiyon ke, mohajiron ke?

India ka havala dekar apni sakh kyon dubote ho, bhai? Hamen chain se rahne do. Allah miyan ke fajal se ham yahan maje men hain.

Khudahafiz

Samar

Re: # 618

Well obviously the wider Ahmaddiya community doesn`t seem to think so. The Ahmadis, despite the institutionalised discrimination against them, seem to think that they are better off here.

And who can blame them.... Admittedly... out of the 5500 sectarian deaths in the last 20 years... 79 have been Ahmadis. But imagine if ``the Non-Muslims`` had been ``Muslims`` in India... what was the number 3000 Muslims burnt alive in one day?

Ofcourse... the horrible discrimination against Ahmadis needs to be overturned... but that is not the basic point of discussion here.

Re: # 607

Harish mian,

As usual you are now resorting to what you know best... lying. But then that is to be expected from someone like you.

masanamuthu #618 {``I`m just amazed by the far-sightedness of Radcliffe / Mountbatten that one day Ahmadiyas would be stripped of their right to be called Muslims and could be arrested for greeting others in the proper Islamic way in ``Pakistan``.. And it is better for them ``non-Muslims`` to remain with India.. :}

Masanamuthu Ji,
I agree with you about Lord Louis being a regular Nostradamus. I was also amazed by Lord Louis Mountbatten’s clairvoyance in not investing in a useless burial plot when he knew that his own end would be quite liquid. :)

#617 BJKumar {``Mian Salim, stop kissing up to that utterly, absolutely, incompetent crowd of nincompoops called ``chowk staff``!
And to the ``biased to the core`` Pakistani crowds! That crowd is just as ``intellectual`` as brown poop marinating in its own ``juices``!
And enjoying its own ``taste``! ``}

BJ Bhayya`s post is another justification for the legalization of hard drugs. We need some standards here - the quality of hard drugs should not vary from shipment to shipment and thus cause this vacillation in BJ Bhayya`s altitude. :)

Mantolives:

It is a settled principle of law that disputes are settled according to the law in force and not future predictions.

I`m not denying that. I`m just amazed by the far-sightedness of Radcliffe / Mountbatten that one day Ahmadiyas would be stripped of their right to be called Muslims and could be arrested for greeting others in the proper Islamic way in ``Pakistan``.. And it is better for them ``non-Muslims`` to remain with India.. :-)

#612

[Chowk FP is really a rewarding intellectual community. ]

Mian Salim, stop kissing up to that utterly, absolutely, incompetent crowd of nincompoops called ``chowk staff``!

And to the ``biased to the core`` Pakistani crowds! That crowd is just as ``intellectual`` as brown poop marinating in its own ``juices``!

And enjoying its own ``taste``!

#595 by Zeena on April 16, 2007 7:41pm PT
{``Salim Mian
Suppose, Altaf Bahyya becomes the next PM of Pakistan, what are the chances of HIm taking Pakistan to a level of a really progressive country, with low corruption, less feudals and more respect for an average Pakistani citizen?
Care to share.``}

Zeena,
The chances of Altaf Bhayya becoming PM of Pakistan are slim to none. Having said that, I reiterate that we must NOT look to one person for our solutions. We should have ALL the valid parties (I firmly believe that ``religious`` parties should not be allowed to participate in politics as religious entities) present their plans and agendas. The people of Pakistan should be allowed to select their leaders through fair, open, and universally-validated elections.

But, the first thing these parties need to do is to introduce democracy into their own processes for selecting their leaders. This applies to Altaf Bhai, Bezamir, and Besharif.

It is obvious from the MQM administration in Karachi, its branching out to the rest of Pakistan, and its well-publicized agenda, that MQM is for women`s rights, for education, for minority rights, against religious extremism, against feudalism, and against the domination of Pakistan by any one province. Thanks for your participation in this interesting discussion.

Dear Friends,
I am posting Mr. Hasan Mahmood`s excellent first-hand account of MQM`s beginning and some of the causes that resulted in its foundation. Also, please read why he thinks MQM supports the government against PPP and ML(N). This is from his post to Zeena on the ``Girls Gone Wild`` article by Shandana:




#1631 by hasanmahmood on April 16, 2007 10:42am PT
Zeena,
The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don`t agree with. ~Eleanor Holmes Norton
It has been a pleasure to disagree with you. Just one more thing. You asked
``If, MQM is or would have had been sincere in it`s actions then why they never set such rallies against corruption in Pakistan? why never done anything against corrupt feudal lords?``
Despite me not liking Altaf Hussain, I do like what MQM has to say, especially about the feudal system and Woman`s Protection bill. In order to understand what MQM is we have to see how it evolved. MQM was formed by Altaf Hussain and Azeem Tariq (very intelligent person – allegedly murdered by Altaf due to power struggles) during their university days because of their stand against religious extremism and feudal lords. My father was the registrar of the university so I was living in university campus and was very close to everything. The party started because of the so-called “ghunda gardi” by Punjab Student’s Association and Jamat-e-Islami when they started harassing women and beating up male students. The main ideology of MQM was always to fight against feudalism and religious extremism. I was a member of MQM since my college days. In the middle bad times came because Altaf had no good advisor and he made some terrible decisions. That changed after educated people floated to the top. Now the party also stands up for Women as well as against Feudalism.
Now the second part as to why MQM supports Musharaf. The true answer to this question is because MQM is a Karachi party. During the Benazir, Nawaz tenure people who suffered the most were Karachiites. On one hand they were brutally murdered (Benazir’s action in Hyderabad when 1200 people died in one night) and on the other they were treated with utmost contempt by Nawaz Sharif. They had to beg for everything including money and resources. Everyday 100000 people come into Karachi. Would you know how many actually go back? The answer is not many. Anyway, finally there was a leader who was from Karachi, and was willing to let Karachi use its own money to develop itself. Finally there was a guy who did not put his cronies in every institution of Karachi. During Benazir and Nawaz, Karachi (which never used to sleep) actually used to close down at 7 pm because of the illegal activities going on. The city was in a horrible condition, roads dilapidated, no new businesses, and no resources (as everything was being used by everyone else from other provinces). People used to get their travel documents ripped up at the airport (personal plus I have heard a lot of close people rehash their stories) by these political party supporters. There was no law and order. On one hand Zardari did not have the guts (political smartness) to do these things in Lahore (as PPP needed Punjab), and on the other Zardari was destroying Karachi. He was called Mr. 10 % for a reason. That is why you will see people (MQM) supporting this government because no matter what anyone else thinks, this government has finally realized the Mohajir contribution. But that does not mean that MQM never goes against the government. Below are some links as examples.


http://www.paktribune.com/news/print.php?id=162220
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?162220
www.mqm.org/news-2006/news-2006.htm
www.dawn.com/2002/10/09/nat27.htm
www.aaj.tv/news/news.php?pg=3&show=detail&nid=49718

#599 by Zeena on April 16, 2007 11:03pm PT
anil
Yes, Salim has proved that he has the ability to keep this board cool. Of course he has shown his calm, composed and collected attitude by engaging fully with all of us.
Most of the time, FP writers do not engage with their readers............
But, Salim took his precious time out and made this board a really vibrant and lively board. ``}

Zeena,
I truly appreciate your kind words and the support and encouragement you have provided for such a long time. Thanks. This forum was particularly enjoyable because of the wonderful attitude of the interactors - pro and con. Did you know that what you are calling my ``engagement with the readers,`` some on UP (yes, the gang of scouts) are ridiculing as ``hogging`` the forum. Sometimes, there is no pleasing people who are determined to be permanent detractors.

#598 by anil on April 16, 2007 9:22pm PT
{``Salim Sahib:
You should be complemented for the efficiency, tact and humor you have shown to manage this board. Your father-in-law must be very happy to find you to manage his business.``}

Anil Bhai,
Thank you for that wonderful compliment. My father-in-law should appreciate his good fortune. :) Right now he is just consumed by being a loving grandfather. :)

#594 Zeena {``Salim Mian Wow!!! Huge success!!! ``}

Zeena,
Thanks - The success belongs to the quality of discussion and the mostly polite exchange of views expressed here. Chowk FP is really a rewarding intellectual community.

#593 Dost Mittar {``salim:
Mohajirs in Karachi:
Could it be that Mohajirs went to Karachi for the same reason that most Indians go in Canada to Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. The first UP Muslims who went to Pakistan were the bureaucrats who were asked to go there to set up the new government. It would be natural thereafter for their relatives and friends to follow them to that city. ``}

DM Sahib,
Very good point. Perhaps, you are right. Maybe that`s also why the GoP moved the capital from Karachi to Islamabad - so close to the dangerous LoC in Kashmir. I guess the PPPs were more afraid of Mohajir domination than Indian aggression. :)

#592 by teshah on April 16, 2007 5:45pm PT
{``It`s a good portrayal of sheer mataruaa mentality with no ground under its feet. He could not differentiate even between `country` and `state`. Pakistan is not a country but a federation born at midnight of August 14, 1947, by the instrument of Indian Independence Act passed by the British Parliament. In 1971, the Eastern wing of this Federal State reverted to its country-hood to render Mataruaa mohajirs as stateless people lost in wilderness in consequence of their treachery with the sons of the soil.``}

Shah Sahib,
Obviously you are joining those who find it politically and ethnically convenient to blame the victims rather than the perpetrators. Your attitude is the exact reason why this Mohajir alientation will only increase. Please reconsider your bias using compassion, logic, and justice as your compass.

#588 aquaris {``heck I have Lived through that...!! ``}

Aquaris,
So did they and so did I. Perhaps you were with the oppressors. :)

#587 aquaris {``and please acknowledge , the GREAT MOHAJIR Alienation is self inflicted, since it is confined to ONLY Two cities of this god forsaken country. ``}

Aquaris,
Perhaps the GREAT MOHAJIR ALIENATION evolved over a number of years and the following significant events combined to make it the behemoth it is today:

1. Gauhar Ayub`s state terrorism against Mohajirs resulting in many deaths
2. Peaceful and shameful surrender of Paki Army in East Pakistan with no provision for Mohajir ``razakaars,`` who bore the brunt of cruel Bengali vengeance.
3. Sindhi riots instigated by Bhutto`s campaign to punish Mohajirs for NOT supporting him in 1970/1971.
4. Massacre of hundreds of Mohajirs, including children, at the hands of Pathan tribesmen in 1986 at Sohrab GoTh with no accountability, trials, investigation of murderers by Zia`s dictatorship.
5. Army actions against Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad in early 90s.
6. Continued suffering of ``stranded`` Mohajirs in Bangladesh at the hands of a shameless government`s refusal to repatriate them.

My friend, you can twist the facts all you want, but the truth and the chronology will always work against you. Thanks.

#605 by Yasser

Aww....so talking about Khilafat riles up Muslims but talking about shedding Hindu blood, whipping up paranoia against imagined Hindu domination does not? LOL!

... is it any wonder that some people here buy ``nonsense`` without even having the ability to discern what is being said.

Re: # 604

Oh yes... Jinnah - who you all claim wasn`t much of a populist- had a magic wand which he waved... and kaboom .... Muslims were riled up.

It had absolutely nothing to do with a Mahatma taking them down the rosy path of Khilafat or a famous Congress Maulana telling them to move to Afghanistan only to be humiliated ...

With such simplistic notions... which go against now accepted facts ... all history books without exception written after the Transfer of Power Papers reject this fantastic magic wand theory.

#597 by masanamuthu

ROFL.. Don`t you think Radcliffe / Mountbatten predicted the future so well that they knew ``Ahmadiyas are going to be non-Muslims`` and awarded the non-Muslim majority province to India.. :-)

Not just Radcliffe/Mountbatten, even Jinnah based his demand for Pakistan on what he foresaw for the future...he went to town about how Hindus would dominate Muslims and how the two communities could not live together..he whipped up paranoia amongst Muslims , who till then (barring a few riots now and then) had been living together with Hindus for hundreds of years.

Re: # 597

It is a settled principle of law that disputes are settled according to the law in force and not future predictions.

As much as I dislike BJkumar and his tactics, I condemn KPLD`s personal attacks on BJKumar... We must not mirror his tactics to defeat his lies.

BJkumar knows he is fighting a losing battle. No point giving him an excuse to distract the whole discussion. For all we know KPLD is BJkumar himself.

#577 by Salim_Chauhan

“Your insensitive and cavalier treatment of Mohajir issues betrays your own considerable bigotry and hatred. We all know how you feel about the Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh.”

So now that you have no answer to what I said about your so called issues, you start your trademark abuses. I don’t feel anything about people in Bangladesh you call stranded Pakistanis. If they are Pakistanis then every soul living in Bangladesh is Pakistani.

Btw, now that MQM has the power to make or break an administration in Pakistan, why those Biharis are still in Bangladesh? How much effort has MQM put in to bring them back? I have not heard a peep from MQM since they have taken over the Governorship in Sindh and some cities about those unfortunate people in Bangladesh.

Why can’t the all powerful MQM, that can collect Bhata allover Karachi and supports all the Mobile phone and car thieves in Karachi, bring those Biharis to Pakistan?

#593
Yeah! it is a natural process and thats exactly what happened. Bhawalpur and Rahim Yar khan in punjab have plenty of Mohajir as they were initially hired by the Amir or Nawab of Bhawalpur and their relatives followed them there. Those mohajir now speak excellent sariaki and adopted the culture( they still speak urdu at home) no one can tell the difference.

I don not think Mohajir term was started just in 70`s.......I guess it goes way back to the era of Partition................

anil

Yes, Salim has proved that he has the ability to keep this board cool. Ofcourse he has shown his calm, composed and collected attitude by engaging fully with all of us.

Most of the time, FP writers do not engage with their readers............

But, Salim took his precious time out and made this board a really vibrant and lively board.

Salim Sahib:

You should be complemented for the efficiency, tact and humor you have shown to manage this board. Your father-in-law must be very happy to find you to manage his business.

Mantolives:

2. Even after applying the principle to districts unconstitutionally, Congress` machinations keeping the Muslim Majority district of Gurdaspur in India (and you can`t call the Ahmadi card here because law is interpretted according to the period and not the subsequent changes thereto... and besides all Ahmadis voted in Pakistan`s favor along with Christians of Gurdaspur).

ROFL.. Don`t you think Radcliffe / Mountbatten predicted the future so well that they knew ``Ahmadiyas are going to be non-Muslims`` and awarded the non-Muslim majority province to India.. :-)

Salim,

Nice try, my friend, but not even close to the truth. No, there was no attempt to emulate the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) hijrat from Mecca to Medina or to make Ansaars out of the ``Pisser-e-Zameen.`` In fact, the word Mohajir (capital M) is vaguely traced to the 1970s and 80s, when the persecution of people of Indian ancestry gained momentum.


Is it true that ``Mohajirs`` as a term was started just in 70s??. It is hard to believe..

Salim Mian

Suppose, Altaf Bahyya becomes the next PM of Pakistan, what are the chances of HIm taking Pakistan to a level of a really progressive country, with low corruption, less feudals and more respect for an average Pakistani citizen?

Care to share.

Salim Mian
Wow!!!

Huge success!!!

592 posts and still the topic is the hottest of all the topics on chowk.....

Keep it up. Congratulations!!!

Unbelievable , just unbelievable...........

salim:

Mohajirs in Karachi:

Could it be that Mohajirs went to Karachi for the same reason that most Indians go in Canada to Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. The first UP Muslims who went to Pakistan were the bureaucrats who were asked to go there to set up the new government. It would be natural thereafter for their relatives and friends to follow them to that city.

Just a speculation on my part.

It`s a good portrayal of sheer mataruaa mentality with no ground under its feet. He could not differentiate even between `country` and `state`. Pakistan is not a country but a federation born at midnight of August 14, 1947, by the instrument of Indian Independence Act passed by the British Parliament. In 1971, the Eastern wing of this Federal State reverted to its country-hood to render Mataruaa mohajirs as stateless people lost in wilderness in consequence of their treachery with the sons of the soil. They behaved not as `Mohajirs` but as selfish `Ghus Bethie` who considered themselves to be the rightful owners and rulers of the Pakiland like Israelies in Palestine. Their agenda in East-Pakistan failed miserably with dire consequences for the Pakiland, but it is working well presently in the remaining part of the land because of its division in various ethnic entities and the huge headless machine called `Pak Army` being maneuvered by `M in Wardi`. As it is the Pakiland would ever remain at the cross road until it finds its true moorings, i.e., whether it is to remain a federation like earstwhile Soviet Union or to become a motherland (Watan or Des) equally for all its inhabitants like Russia or Bangla Desh, shedding off its Mohajar phobias and selfish agendas as we are almost all mohajirs with various timings of arrival in this world.

...also please read my #32 and #62



I am posting verbatum # 62

Denials
Abuse
Rheotorics......and more rheotorics...

http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/publ.html

lists some interesting research papers..

Mohajir Demand

http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-dem.html

Mohajir Population

http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-pop.html

How Mohajirs became Rich


http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-rich.html

Discrimination against sindhi language


http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-sindhi.html

Who Ruled Whom by Paleejo

http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/who-ruled.html


Entho politcs and contending Elites

http://www.unrisd.org/unrisd/website/document.nsf/(httpPublications)/49E58DAD1F9390B680256B6500565470?OpenDocument

this is a United Nations Research Institute for Social Development Publication


But the relevant portion , was taken from

http://indus.usask.ca/~jamali/sindh/res/documents/moh-dem.html

which is a part of the Sindh Democrats Group Petition ``Sindh Case``, a petition filed by Sindh Democrats Group to the Supreme Court of Pakistan in response to the MQM Constitutional Petition No 46 of 1994, claiming discrimination from the federal and Sindh provincial governments. It discusses Muhajir complaints at some length.



The relevant portion Para 8 Gives some interesting figures

8. MQM leadership and its suporters are only representative of 22.64% population of Sindh and 5% population of pakistan. This ``electoral representation`` of people who hold far more jobs (78% Government and 67.7% non-Government) than their due share (22.64%), most of whom come and go whenever they like from India, most of whom are illegal immigrants, have the temerity to demand, and then to kill and burn when such absurd demands are not met, only because, perhaps, one of their grandfathers waved a Pakistani flag 50 years ago in the streets of Junagadh.



These were also corborated by the Paleejo`s article , link for which is already given.



the full case along with its Judgement can be downloaded from here..

http://www.sanalist.org/Acrobat/SDG-CASE.pdf


it shatters many a myths.



before you dismiss, it as hot air again...

Re: # 583

`` army and the security apparatus of the kanjars ``


Pray tell me, whereand who is/was Faheem Commando, javed Langra,Saulet Mirzas, the various TT`s, Chootas, kun-tutas, Bullets, heros,Kanas, .....etc..etc..etc.....and....etc......


I guess all of them , belonged to the `` Appartusof the Kanjars...`.....Right...!!

Re: # 583

`` army and the security apparatus of the kanjars ``


Pray tell me, whereand who is/was Faheem Commando, javed Langra,Saulet Mirzas, the various TT`s, Chootas, kun-tutas, Bullets, heros,Kanas, .....etc..etc..etc.....and....etc......


I guess all of them , belonged to the `` Appartusof the Kanjars...`.....Right...!!

Re: # 583

`` informed people ``



heck I have Lived through that...!!

Re: # 583

and please acknowledge , the GREAT MOHAJIR Alienation is self inflicted, since it is confined to ONLY Two cities of this god forsaken country.

andOn Jamia hafsa Issue, I am with you, its a state , managed Affair, to divert attention from OTHER pressing problems.

Re: # 584

I have said earlier, 70% of the Mohajirs, went to karchi, the rest 30% , which again is a substantial Number , choose to remain elsewhere...


heck even Khanewal or Sahiwal, arranges for One of the most eagarly awaited, annual Musharia .

#582, Aquaris,
My friend, please realize that you are refuting your own arguments with conflicting facts. First you state that the overwhelming majority of Mohajirs went to Karachi to take advantage of the empty capital city with evacuee property ready to be looted. Then you claim that a substantial number of Mohajirs settled in Punjabi cities and became assimilated - were the latter ones so obviously that stupid? Were the refugees arriving from East Punjab also so stupid as to NOT go to an empty capital with easy evacuee property waiting there to be taken? Come on, you are making no sense at all. :)

Amazing how great you are in reading the minds of young and old Mohajir women from Delhi, wearing their shuttlecock white burqas, greedily speeding toward the waiting trains to take them to Karachi where they can open the KSE and get rich by gobbling up evacuee property waiting there to be had. Aquaris, please stop this hot air, before we start calling you Vaporis. :)

#581 Aquaris {``
PS it appears , you have no Idea of the ground realities, and all your information is based on .... secondary sources to the secondary sources...:}

Aquaris,
Let`s let some really informed people shed some light on this issue of Mohajir alienation. Aasif Bhai and NYcoolest have provided some very specific and factual information about Karachi, MQM, and the Pakistan Army actions during the terrible days of the early 90s. I have noticed that whenever these two have appeared, HP and Chacha Buttees have conveniently gone AWOL to avoid further embarrassment. So, please enjoy there posts from Unplugged - very relevant to our topic:


#20 by nycoolest on April 16, 2007 3:11pm PT
,,,MQM is not the only creation of dictator. PPP, PML-N, PML-Q and a long list to follow. Only when MQM try to break away with dictators and army started two operations against them, arrested and kill/encounter many and do huge propogenda against them under sarkari umbrella. The party supported by army don`t get such a `royal` treatment.

agreed with aasif, even lahore; the strong hold of Nawaz shareef showed no support for him, why would karachiites who suffered badly in his and bibi`s rule would come forward to support them when they need it the most.

It is shameful. Kidnapping and extra judicial murders must stop. The things you are claiming in punjab is what karachi wallahs were facing prior to musharaf rule since past 10 years. The large scale protest should come from where it is actually happening .... i.e Punjab and from the parties who are representing the people who are allegedly getting treated like this.. too bad topi dramas like Jamia hafisa is getting all the attention instead from the issues like these.

If the elected officials from PPP, PML, MMA etc are not doing the job, perhaps you guys need to look for MQM or create a reprsentation of your own intellectuals and middle class if mistrust of MQM is huge, to have your message go across.


#15 by Aasif on April 16, 2007 10:18am PT
...
don`t expect karachiites to come out in support of elected dictators like besharif or budnazeer.. both unleashed campaigns of terror and extra judicial killings, kidnappings in karachi... using the army and the security apparatus of the kanjars...
the whole country was silent (actually it blamed mqm and it still does) then as it is now over the unjustified killings and kidnappings of `terrorism` suspects...
karachi for the first time in its history is getting some of the revenue it generates and the results are for ev1 to see...
mqm is anti military rule in principle but for now is playing its cards carefully.. that is all a minority party can do...
unlike ameer-ul-momimeen besharif who himself along with IJI a creation of the napak army.... and so was the feudal pseudo populist bhutto....
jamia qabza is a symptom of the lawlessness created by the feudal/army/ fundoo connection... and provides a good mauqa for some tamasha
...
rule of law should be supreme but ground reality is quite different.. ``}

Re: # 561

`` The reason that Mohajirs did not blend in or assimilate is that, other than the Punjabi speaking ones (e.g. some Delhi SaudageraaN, many from Haryana`s Panipat and Gurgaon areas), most did not feel welcome in West Punjab. Many were directed to trains waiting to take them to Karachi. Tell me, why would people from the interior, from lush landlocked areas of India, want to go to the desert, the coast to start new lives?`


..... this arguments cannot be substantiated with FACTS, since there is a considerable , well integrated and assimilated Mohajir population, every where , including Punjab.
needless to remind Walton was in Lahore.

...my guess is , the LURE of econimic activities, in the THEN Capital, and relatively Empty City, with a Large Port in an already developed City, as compared to the Over crowded
Punjabi Cities , also the relatively eassy access to claims for EVACUE Property , was the overwhelmingly forcefull reason.

... this claim, to boarding them to TRAINs heading for Karachi, is farfetched, No one could force , Unless and Untill the willingness is there, as again I repeat ,a considerable number of the well integrated Mohajir Population in the cities of Punjab refutes it...

Re: # 561

LOL

Do you have any Idea, who designed those forms and why...!!


... they were designed by the BABOOS , early in the formative years, basically to settle
evacue property issues, ........and the informations were for cross checks....we all know
what happened to the evacue property don`t we.

Unfortuntely, ......... these items, were Left In, call is malicious intent or whatever, and then
ZA Bhutto`s notorious Quota System.
which was actually the result of a Unique Situation, where there was a Sharp and distinct
Urban-Rural divide, with practically no representation from the Rural side in the system
....[ affirmative action ...] to bring a sembalance to the imbalance, orignally for a limited period, but ....have been extended , ever since, even in the present Govt, which is whole and sole controlled by the Mohajirs.... I wonder why,.....!! yes there was a token, objection to it, by the MQM in the assembly but later On they agreed to it......!!
[...... as it has given then..... ONE More cause to keep beating the stick.....]....


PS it appears , you have no Idea of the ground realities, and all your information is based on .... secondary sources to the secondary sources...

.......you live in turkey, some of your relatives live in Pakistan, and the hear say, from these sources, moulds your opinions.....!!... yes you do claim to visit Pakistan on ...........[.........tourist Visa .....] for a couple of days or weeks at best....I presume.

#570 Ranjit {``Salim, are you a ghar jamai?``}

Dear Mr. Ranjit,
No, my wife and I live in our own apartment. But the building is owned by my father-in-law. :) I am married to my cousin and my father-in-law heads the company started by his wife`s grandfather or my own great grandfather. Confused? :) Enough about me. Let`s focus on the topic of the article. Thanks. :)

Devkant #569,
Dear Mr. Devkant,
My paternal grandfather migrated from Jaipur, Rajasthan to Karachi, Pakistan. :)

klpd, BJKumar, Ranjit,
Thank you for your speculation concerning my father-in-law. No, he is not Pakistani and certainly not a PPP. He has never set foot in India or Pakistan. He is a Turk. BJ Bhayya could not be my father-in-law because the kind and gentle Bihari Babu is too sensitive, too sober, and extremely considerate. :) OTOH, Hamidum Sahib, if he didn`t speak any Urdu, would make me very suspicious .... :)

#565 HP {``#565 by HP on April 16, 2007 10:20am PT
Post # 564 is a proof that mohajirs have no issues in Karachi.. ``}

HP,
Your insensitive and cavalier treatment of Mohajir issues betrays your own considerable bigotry and hatred. We all know how you feel about the Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh. For your information, consulates are established between countries on a reciprocal basis. People having to travel in person to Islamabad or New Delhi create personal hardships, especially when there is no process for obtaining visas by mail.

The quotas in Sindh that discriminate against urban dwellers in favor of rural ones are unique in that there is no such distinction in Punjab, NWFP, and Balochistan. Aasfi Bhai has pointed this out in the past, but you keep circumventing the real issue. The acquisition of guns by Mohajirs was a desperate response to the various armed gangs of drug lords, ethnic goons, and political favorites unleashed on Karachi and its citizens during the days of Zia.

I don`t want Sindhis to starve. I just want them to realize that by choking the Mohajirs off from education, employment, and other opportunities, they are encouraging the Mohajirs to become mohajirs once again. The substantial emigration of Mohajirs from Pakistan to US, UK, Australia, and the Middle East is a huge loss for Pakistan, and in the long run will hurt the Sindhis. Mohajirs have been a very positive influence in liberating poor Sindhis in their struggle against fellow Sindhi vaderas and cruel feudal lords. Please try to be more compassionate and less jingoistic. :)

Re: # 575
that`s salim`s problem not mine - but you know what they say: hide the face with a flag and......

Yaar klpd, bjkumar`s daughter probably looks like a female gandhi......

Re: # 572
does that mean salim has been screwing bjkumar`s daughter?

Re:bj
[..Of course, Salim has never considered the possibility that his father-in-law may indeed be actually visiting this site, using an innocuous nick, like ``bjkumar``! ...]

A bihari settled in Turkey? Wonders will never cease....

I thought his father in law was a Paki Punjabi Paindoo settled in Turkey....:-).....given his hatred of PPPs.....hehe

#570 (add on)

Of course, Salim has never considered the possibility that his father-in-law may indeed be actually visiting this site, using an innocuous nick, like ``bjkumar``!

#570 Ranjit

Abey Ranjit, that`s a low blow! Salim has NEVER hidden the fact that he is a ghar-jamai!

Re:salim_chauhan
[...It`s a good thing that my father-in-law doesn`t visit Chowk....]

Salim, are you a ghar jamai? Hmm.....now I see why the mohajir cause comes naturally to you....the mohajirs want to be treated as jamais wherever they live, but they end up being treated like ghar jamais.. hehe....:-)

salim bhai....pardon my ignorance....but from which part of india do you originally belong to?

rgds,

devkant.

#542 Manto Lives

[Hope you will be around then.]

Good Lord! It is going to take THAT long!!

#557 DM-jee

You and mian Hamidm should try to be less patronizing. This is a forum for expressing opinions. Manto is a grown-up person (chronologically), with every right under the sky to make as much a fool of himself as his (little) heart desires!

#562 Salim

Yaar, kindly do not demean auto mechanics. Thank you!

Post # 564 is a proof that mohajirs have no issues in Karachi..

1. Quotas (especially in Sindh, using urban/rural numbers, while this classification is not used in Punjab, NWFP or Baluchistan - just ask Aasif Bhai!)

Quotas were established to protect Sindhis from unfair job discriminations and they only apply to Government jobs. 70% private sector jobs in Sindh are still held by Mohajir. There are quotas in NWFP, and Balochistan too. Do you want 100 percent jobs to go mohajir and starve Sindhis? This is not an issue you are asking for a privilege.

2. Unfair employment practices and questionnaires in military, civilian government jobs

How so ? There are more Mohajir in all federal jobs than Sindhis. 7% percent have 25-30% and you want more? That is again asking for a privilege and depriving some other folks. Have some sense of decency. Do you want Sindhis to starve?


3 Unfair educational opportunities

Where?

4. Unreasonably high defense expenditure
That is not a mohajir issue. It is a national issue and I have never seen any mohajir complaining about it.

5. Until Kokhrapar was opened (unnecessary travel to Lahore for travel to India).

People from Karachi rarely use Khrokrapar. What if there was no train track in that area? It is a convenience issue but just not legitimate.

6. Need Indian High Commission in Karachi for visas
Call Indian government

7. Difficulty in getting visas for Indian relatives to visit Pakistan
Trains are running full. Is that your idea of legitimate issue?

8. Intolerably rude treatment of Indian relatives by PPP staff in India.

Not true. Customer service has never been better with Government employees.
But that is not an issue too.

9. Presence of overwhelmingly ``alien`` police in Karachi - mostly PPPs
Funny a Mohajir says that. were mohajir not alien when they arrived in Karachi?
That is not true not any more.

10. Use of ``alien`` force in oppressing the citizens of Karachi - mostly PPP Rangers

Join Rangers who is stopping you.

11. Continued and shameful injustice against ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh

Not an issue for residents of Karachi now.

12. Government-sanctioned culture of guns, drugs, and violence in Karachi - thanks to Afghan refugees using Karachi as outlet for drugs to Europe.

More mohajirs have guns now than any other group in Karachi. Mohajir kids are using TTs to snatch mobile phones, cars and purses because they know they will not be punshied.

13. More, to be provided upon request ....

You just don’t any legit issue… Garbage…

#563, HP {``What is the problem? Can you point to one legitimate issue?``}

You asked for one, please enjoy:

1. Quotas (especially in Sindh, using urban/rural numbers, while this classification is not used in Punjab, NWFP or Baluchistan - just ask Aasif Bhai!)
2. Unfair employment practices and questionnaires in military, civilian government jobs
3. Unfair educational opportunities
4. Unreasonably high defense expenditure
5. Until Kokhrapar was opened (unnecessary travel to Lahore for travel to India).
6. Need Indian High Commission in Karachi for visas
7. Difficulty in getting visas for Indian relatives to visit Pakistan
8. Intolerably rude treatment of Indian relatives by PPP staff in India.
9. Presence of overwhelmingly ``alien`` police in Karachi - mostly PPPs
10. Use of ``alien`` force in oppressing the citizens of Karachi - mostly PPP Rangers
11. Continued and shameful injustice against ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh
12. Government-sanctioned culture of guns, drugs, and violence in Karachi - thanks to Afghan refugees using Karachi as outlet for drugs to Europe.
13. More, to be provided upon request ....

Salim

``when you soothe passions and tell humanity that there is no problem.``

What is the problem? Can you point to one legitimate issue?

#561, HP,
Thank you for your impartial and objective verdict that we Mohajirs are suffering from ``Malekholia.`` Do you remember when the Serb guardians of the concentration camps in Bosnia insisted that the prisoners never had it so good and that they were being treated extremely well - better than the Serbs` own paramilitary goons? When asked why some of the prisoners looked so hungry and that one could see their ribs poking out through their skins, the commander replied that some of these ``Muslims are built that way in their physique - they are naturally tall, thin, and very lanky.`` HP, sayyeen you are so convincing when you soothe passions and tell humanity that there is no problem. You must be an auto mechanic, because that`s what they always say when one complains about noises or smells right after a repair job – “Just drive around for a while and the noise or smell will go away. “ :)

#557 Dost Mittar Sahib,

I am so glad that you approve of the unique aspect of this forum that seems to unite Pakistanis and Indians along ethnic lines. :) I say anything that enhances desi unity is worth the effort.

I thank you for your sincere compliment about the decency that prevails for the most part in this forum - the credit goes to the wonderful people, regardless of their viewpoints, who have all contributed to this pleasant atmosphere.

As for Mohajirs having set themselves up as the original ``elites`` of Pakistan, you may have some validity in your statements. The preoccupation with religion, the longing for Delhi, Lucknow, Agra, Hyderabad, Bhopal, Rohilkhand, and Ajmer, the lingering culture of Zamindars, nawaabs, and urban Lucknowis must have contributed to this mistake. But this aura of cultural ``superiority`` was not that malicious or caused any cruel massacres, rapes, and arson. The charge that Mohajirs instigated rape, murder, looting, torture, and expulsion of Hindus and Sikhs is a baseless and insidious lie and the perpetrators know that.

The reason that Mohajirs did not blend in or assimilate is that, other than the Punjabi speaking ones (e.g. some Delhi SaudageraaN, many from Haryana`s Panipat and Gurgaon areas), most did not feel welcome in West Punjab. Many were directed to trains waiting to take them to Karachi. Tell me, why would people from the interior, from lush landlocked areas of India, want to go to the desert, the coast to start new lives? Punjabi is a lot easier to pick up than Sindhi for most Urdu-speakers. Lahore was a famous and established city from pre-partition days and Mohajirs would have felt a lot more comfortable there. Lastly, Lahore was closer to India and most of western UP and Delhi - the areas that contributed the bulk of the refugees other than East Punjab.

Have you ever heard of application forms that want to know your place of birth, your daddy`s place of birth, and (God forbid) your grandpa`s place of birth? What are they trying to find out with these stupid questions? Thanks for a great post. :)

It is quite evident on this board that no one has any sympathy for this privileged group. They are doing very well economically and in fact better than any other group in Pakistan. What is the gripe here? It is all about the inherent communalism. Communalism is a disease and takes time to cure.

Politically, they had couple of bad years but if you pay attention most of it was instigated by them. That story is now over. They have political power not only in Karachi and Hyderabad but also in Mirpurkhas, Tando Allahyar and Tando jam.

#550 Mantolives {``Since you have left a menu of choices that may be acceptable to you, I have no qualms with your vision for the future and I am counting on Mohajirs staying with Pakistan and achieving its original intended objective for which your ancestors gave up so much. ``}

Manto Bhai,
Of course, reasonable people looking for solutions always offer choices, we need options and ultimatums. Unfortunately, many of the Pakistani Punjabis here on Chowk (with the notable exceptions of Kamal Sahib and yourself, I don`t know Nauman72`s affiliation), instead of trying to understand Mohajirs` real concerns, have embarked on a path of denial, justification of repression, outright abuse, racism, vulgarity, and allegations of Mohajir misdeeds dating back to Amir Khusru. :) Calling us Indian agents or RAW informers and traitors are not the path to reconciliation and future unity.

I appreciate your polite, sympathetic, and rational attitude. Even when we have disagreed, you and I have managed to maintain a civil and congenial environment.

BTW, what do you think of the recent kumbaya of Fazlu, Bezamir, and Besharif in London? :)

Re: # 556

i will agree with 2, somewhat with 3, and as a corrollary to 3 with 4.

But not 1


..since I have lived THAT ERA, ......and consider it just an attempt to ........ let me say politely HOODWINK own constituency,
... It all was deliberate , and they themselves are involved, upto the Neck in it.

....and because had they realize the REAL truth...which I am sure , with current state of Mind, THEY WILL NOT, only in the future
say after 10 years, and if they are allowed to think objectively and then LOOK BACK.
will the realize what actually happened to them and With them.

... at present, 20 years of crimnalization, has disoriented every perceptions in them.
...and it will take at least 10 more years of sustained PEACE for them to get their bearing back.

It will shatter many a myths....... PERIOD.



PS on personal level , I got that needed space, when my father sent me to Punjab Lahore, and still then it took 6 Years for the venom to get out of my systems...

Shreeman Chauhan:

First of all, congratulations for starting a very civilised debate which has, for the first time, broken the usual alliances. For once, the adversaries are aligned according to ethnicity and not the usual Hindu-Muslim, India-Pak lines. There have been ethnic alliances before but generally of the intra-country variety and not of the cross-border types seen on your board.

Along those lines, let me give my PPP (I was born a Pakistani, after all :)) perspective. In India, too, we were called Panah-guzeer -the actual word used was ``sharnarthi``; we too resented that word and started calling ourselves ``Pursharthi`` (the brave ones). But after a while, both these terms disappeared and we all became Indians and started going about our own ways. The same thing happened to muhajirs who went to Pakistan except those who went to Karachi and Hyderabad, where they found themselves into a majority and being the bureaucratic karta-dhartas of the newly created country, tried to dictate the Pakistani agenda.

Their position was, in some sense, similar to that of the upper-caste Hindus in India who, though a minority, also found themselves in the driver`s seat after the British left. However, unlike the Mohajirs in Pakistan, their leadership was more egalitarian and they immediately set for themselves the vision of a more egalitarian society. Unlike the Mohajirs who are still protesting quotas for Sindhis, they themselves created quotas for the most oppressed and indeed asked one from those oppressed classes to head the constitution making process. And despite the initial enthusiasm for Hindi, to some extent even in the South, they decided to opt for sixteen national languages (including Urdu) and English as the main official language, with a token towards Hindi enthusiasts by making it also an official language.

What I am saying is that the Mohajirs, to some extent, set the stage for a reaction against themselves being an elitist class. The fact that they had come from outside only worsened the resentment against them. I think that the MQM has recognised this resentment and has therefore changed its stance. Now, it seems to stand for more provincial and linguistic rights, just as the Congress leaders did in the years after independence. You would be well-advised to support the new MQM agenda and gained the sympathy instead of the hostility of other demographic groups in Pakistan.


Manto:

I second hamidm`s advice to you. You really have a bright future. You should best ignore your `enemies`. In any case, the enemies you are fighting here may disagree with the interpretation of history, they do agree with your cause, going forward.

#551 aquaris {``Pray tell me , why is this `` complete alienation ``, with the rest of the population only confined to Karachi , and Hyderabad. ``}

Dear Aquaris,
Fair question. I guess there are several reasons:
1. That`s where the most repressive and cruel violence by Pak Rangers occurred.
2. That`s where the bulk of the Mohajirs live
3. That`s where they are secure enough to complain, but not secure enough to be happy.
4. That`s where the heart is - and the complaints and feeling of complete alienation are sincere. :)

#552 Hamidum2 {`` look, most of the people here are either overpaid and underworked expatriates like me and salim mian who do not have a dog in this fight but like the idle gup-shup, or horrible hindoos who are by nature given to chasing cars``}

Hamidum Sahib,
Who you callin` overpaid and underworked? :) It`s a good thing that my father-in-law doesn`t visit Chowk.

The part about ``chasing cars`` was indeed funny. LOL. :)

#552 Hamidum2 {`` look, most of the people here are either overpaid and underworked expatriates like me and salim mian who do not have a dog in this fight but like the idle gup-shup, or horrible hindoos who are by nature given to chasing cars``}

Hamidum Sahib,
Who you callin` overpaid and underworked? :) It`s a good thing that my father-in-law doesn`t visit Chowk.

The part about ``chasing cars`` was indeed funny. LOL. :)

Dear Hamidm,

As usual thanks for the compliment and advice which I always value.

I think however that you are underestimating the role that internet has to play in the world at large as well as Pakistan. I have often felt that giving up space on the net is like strengthening the hands of those who have a deliberate malicious agenda of controlling the future through altering the past. Some of what is going on in this cyberspace actually is part of some sort of ``ingsoc`` scheme... to refer to that Orwellian classic. The boundaries between virtual and the so called ``real`` are fading away in my opinion.

ylh,

..... i don`t understand why a man like you has to engage in silly and futile debates on a forum like this one ............ look, most of the people here are either overpaid and underworked expatriates like me and salim mian who do not have a dog in this fight but like the idle gup-shup, or horrible hindoos who are by nature given to chasing cars .......... we can say whatever we want because our inane and often insane comments are not going to come back to haunt us ............you, on the other hand, are obviously commited to the cause and, in my opinion, have the potential to actually play a significant role in pakistani politics ......... now, you don`t want some idiot taking your comments on chowk out of context when you are running in an election - do you ? .........

.............. leave this lufangebazi to those of us who have nothing better to do - you should focus on better things than throwing pearls in front of farm animals ............

Re: # 549

`` the complete alienation ``


Pray tell me , why is this `` complete alienation ``, with the rest of the population only confined to Karachi , and Hyderabad.

Why this `` the complete alienation ``, not felt, nor exist any where else......!!

the whole punjab,Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, etc....etc..etc...etc..and etc...
the Annual `` Mushaira `` of Khanewal, or is it Sahiwal, is an event egarly waited by every One....!!
and as Mr HP in his post has said.

`` There are mohajirs allover Sindh even in Larkana and Jacobabad but mostly they are now indistinguishable. People in Tando allahyar, Tando Jam Mirpurkhas and other towns like Sukker and Khairpur speak excellent sindhi. Some even better than I can.``


..Why this UNIQUE PHENOMENON confined to Karachi and Hyderabad only.....??

and the answer to this question, is the real answer , in your dispising the `` Piser-e-Zameens ``.

Re: # 549

Dear Salim Bhai,

On all these issues, I have addressed posts to you. Unfortunately they got buried in the Hyderabadi Warrior`s rampage carried out for the single objective i.e. ``to shut ylh up`` ... an objective which has consumed him entirely and driven him to the brink of madness.

Please dig and find the posts I addressed to you. Since you have left a menu of choices that may be acceptable to you, I have no qualms with your vision for the future and I am counting on Mohajirs staying with Pakistan and achieving its original intended objective for which your ancestors gave up so much.

I would like to welcome both Manto Bhai and Brother Harry to this forum. I will request them to enlighten us with their perspectives concerning this article - the complete alienation felt by Mohajirs due to the insensitivity, inhospitality, and unfair tyranny of the majority as practiced by the Pisser-e-Zameen. We have debated and debated about partition, its merits, its mistakes, and the role of the British, the failures of both ML and Congress, the roles of Mr. Jinnah, Gandhiji, and Mr. Nehru. We are not going to solve those issues in this forum, but we can exchange ideas and suggestions concerning this real problem of Mohajir alienation today.

I want to reassure both Indians and the “Sons of the Soil” Pakistanis that Mohajirs are NOT Indian agents, RAW operatives, or fanatic jihadis bent upon the reconquest of Hindustan. We are real people with real lives, real issues, and real concerns. All we want is the chance to have real hopes without the threat of being killed by soldiers of “our own” army or punished by “our own” government.
Thanks,

#522 masanamuthu {``Are you angry that ``Punjabis`` / ``Sindhis`` failed to be the real ``ansars``, the fools who accepted someone else as their leader like the Medinans accepted Mohammad. No wonder Mohammad / Umar ruled that ``ansars`` are not fit to be leaders.. Too bad Punjabis declined to be ``ansars``.. ``}

Dear Masanamuthu.
Nice try, my friend, but not even close to the truth. No, there was no attempt to emulate the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) hijrat from Mecca to Medina or to make Ansaars out of the ``Pisser-e-Zameen.`` In fact, the word Mohajir (capital M) is vaguely traced to the 1970s and 80s, when the persecution of people of Indian ancestry gained momentum. Simply stated, when the Punjabis started calling us ``HindustaaNRaan,`` and the Pathans and Sindhis labeling us as ``Panah Guzeer,`` the immigrants started calling themselves the obvious - Mohajirs. Now the word with the capital M has come to symbolize, correctly or incorrectly, all people who came from India or are the descendants of those immigrants. BTW, Mohajir is not an honorific title or something to croak about - it`s simply a statement of being from somewhere else. In fact, Ansaar is a more positive word. :) It means ``those who help.``

PS: As far as huffing and puffing goes, I would imagine that declaring 543-534 equal to 20 is either Orvellian in nature... or is simply an indication of an agitated state of mind.

Re: # 543

Dear Harish mian,

The deterioration happened only in so far as your posts are concerned. As for my posts... they are as usual minus any personal attacks/malice of any kind. Some of us can disagree civilly. Others like you simply have to resort to familiar lines of argumentation.

As for post 534, I have asked you for examples but you`ve failed to produce any. Hence the subdued tenor of your recent post.

Zeena #524 {``My only question is, if, MQM is sincere in it`s efforts, then when will MQM have exactly the same kind of rally against the real culprits , feudal lords? that they did today against pseudo mullahs? If, MQM really wishes to see Pakistan as progressive secular state, then eradicate these feudals.....
...I will not trust MQM untill they will NOT do anything against feudals.:{

Zeena,
Very good question and certainly a valid stance on your part. While, I do not speak for MQM, I can say that it does not have a feudal constituency. Almost all of MQM`s support comes from the urban centers of Sindh - Karachi, Hyderabad, Sukkur, etc... They may be hesitant to take on the vaderas, chaudhrys, and feudals for the simple fact that the later could easily eradicate them using their hold on the mainly Punjabi Pak Army. Lately, MQM has tried to make inroads with voters in southern Punjab, much to the anxiety of the PML (N) feudals there. I have heard from NYCoolest Bhayya that MQM has succeeded in AK also. Let`s see if their broadening of views and objectives gets them any results in the north. Thanks.

HP sain,

(It is true that Sindhi Hindu were forced to leave after tremendous pressure from Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad. Hindu’s were the Sindhi middleclass and business persons. )

A blessing in disguise incidentally for India. Kicking out ethnic minorities has generally not been a profitable proposition in the long run. Interestingly enuff, none of the 1947 refugee groups- EB Hindus, Punju Sikhs/Hindus or Sindhi Hindus have ever claimed any discrimination in India unlike Mohajirs (whether their claim is correct or incorrect I leave it you guys to figure out).

Regards

#540 by Yasser

Just as I predicted in #529, your arrival has coincided with a marked deterioration in the quality of interacts. Anyways, the very fact that you`ve been huffing and puffing trying to decipher the ``hidden`` meaning in my post #534 written in the simplest possible English (and almost 20 posts later, still haven`t succeeded..LOL!) points to an abject lack of comprehension skills on your part. I guess we`ll have to wait for you to improve that aspect before you can even begin to argue. Till then, all we can do is whip you you-know-where so you don`t stray off the line.

Dear BJkumar,

I`ll let my actions do the talking on your questions in #496. Hope you will be around then.

#525 Manto

Sweetheart, finally you are here. Unfortunately, you have timed your arrival to coincide with exactly when I need to do my janitorial chores! :(

How is that lipstick factory running? Any new investors, yet?

Earlier, in #496, I asked the Nauman mian a couple of simple questions but he seems to have chickened out. Perhaps you wish to take a crack and enlighten us or more likely, humor us.

Ciao, my darling!

Dear Harish mian,

No need to tie yourself up in knots.

You said I used certain phrases against female interactors. I have asked you to show me where. You`ve been unable to. On the other hand you know and are quite proud of the language you use against people, especially women, who dare express a point of view that challenges the myths you hold sacred. Come back and talk to me when you have a leg to stand on. Jhootay kay paon nahin hotay.

#537 by Yasser

Instead of resorting to the kind of language you use at home, shhow me where I have used the impugned phrases against ``female interactors`` on this website.

Yasser mian, it is YOU who said ``remove your head from your rearend`` is a common English expression used in your household, so anything I speak at home must really be tame in comparison.

You claimed I used certain phrases for Sadna Gupta and other female interactors.

So Yasser, what does this prove? It is that the brilliant phrase ``masquerade of democracy`` wasn`t an accident. It is perfectly in consonance with Yasser`s unique brand of English.

Your failure to do so proves yet again that you are someone who will go to any length to slander me simply because you disagree with my point of view and don`t have any argument worth fighting.

In the light of the above, this point just doesn`t make sense.

Other interactors...

I have absolutely no desire to indulge this fellow in this discussion. However I still apologise on his behalf for his abuse that is sullying this otherwise ``civlised debate``.

I can only assure you that I will not respond in kind- as usual.

Dear Harish mian,

Instead of resorting to the kind of language you use at home, shhow me where I have used the impugned phrases against ``female interactors`` on this website.

Let me repeat it again for you.

1. You claimed I used certain phrases for Sadna Gupta and other female interactors.

2. I have asked you to please give me instances of the said usage. You`ve been UNABLE to produce such evidence.

3. Your failure to do so proves yet again that you are someone who will go to any length to slander me simply because you disagree with my point of view and don`t have any argument worth fighting.


Now just accept that you are lying and be on your way.

#535 by Yasser

These ``colorful phrases`` (metaphorical as they were) were made in response to your constant abuse (which you put here because you never ever had any arguments).

Aww sure Yasser...now that you`ve been caught with your pants down, you say these abuses were merely ``metaphorical``. Trying saying that to those (especially the females) who are at the receiving end...LOL!

I challenge you to produce a single instance where I used this phrase or term for Sadna Gupta or any other female interactor on this website.

What part of ``Sure Yasser, if the colorful phrases (an example of which I put up in my previous post) you use ever so often for not just me, but various interactors (including female Chowkies, Sadna is just an example) do not constitute abuse, I don`t know what would.`` is not clear to you?

Comprehension issues, dear Yasser? Now how many times have you been caught out for your obvious shortcomings with English, in which you say you were a topper? LOL!

Re: # 534

Dear Harish mian,

You are not just without any self respect but utterly shameless. These ``colorful phrases`` (metaphorical as they were) were made in response to your constant abuse (which you put here because you never ever had any arguments). Unlike you I do not abuse women for their gender.

I challenge you to produce a single instance where I used this phrase or term for Sadna Gupta or any other female interactor on this website. You know ofcourse that you often refer to women who disagree with you as whores etc. No doubt this has been ingrained in you since formative years.

#532 by Yasser

None of my posts have been abusive to anyone.

Sure Yasser, if the colorful phrases (an example of which I put up in my previous post) you use ever so often for not just me, but various interactors (including female Chowkies, Sadna is just an example) do not constitute abuse, I don`t know what would. I guess standards differ from person to person.

As for arguments, you are still wanted on every single board you ``tried`` to argue with me... so I am sorry.. but I am done wasting my time with you, untill you significantly grow up and take a few classes in manners and common courtesy.

Is that why you`ve been caught making boastful statements, only to pathetically fall short when challenged? LOL!

Salim mian,

``Again, just because Liaquat Ali Khan had land holdings in another province, it does not change his ethnicity. Also, you may not know this, but the person you call anti-India, anti-Hindu, and the architect of the Kashmir ``problem,`` was possibly assassinated for accepting Mr. Nehru`s offer of a cease-fire and resolution of the ``problem`` through the UN. ``

Well said. All this is true. There is also another angle to Liaqat Ali Khan assassination... but one which can be discussed at another time.

``I believe that it was Gen. Akbar Khan`s conspiracy - perhaps more knowledgeable Chowkies can shed some light on this item.``

This is the view that Sardar Shaukat Hayat and Alastair Lamb take.. However... according to Khizer Hayat Tiwana and Hussein Suhrawardy ... the orders came from Liaqat Ali Khan himself... who according to Suhrawardy was pulling a fast one on the ``Buddha``.


There is a lot of propaganda against Liaqat Ali Khan... but I have found no indication or proof of allegations against Liaqat Ali Khan ... infact... a great book on Liaqat Ali Khan is being written by a western historian... who sheds a lot of light on his role as Pakistan`s Prime Minister... Liaqat Ali Khan was neither disloyal nor corrupt in anyway. He remained committed to Jinnah`s Pakistan... but the mistake he made was giving religion a trojan horse through the Objectives Resolution... albeit his interpretation was modern and progressive... but he should`ve known that Liaqat Ali Khan would not be the Prime Minister of Pakistan forever.

Dear Harish mian,

None of my posts have been abusive to anyone. You on the other hand have gone on a barrage. The reason why it was civilised was because you had not been adequately provoked. Now that you have been... we see it going down the drain.

I am not going to respond to your other personal attacks anymore, because I admit ... I can`t match you insult for insult. As for arguments, you are still wanted on every single board you ``tried`` to argue with me... so I am sorry.. but I am done wasting my time with you, untill you significantly grow up and take a few classes in manners and common courtesy.

#530 by Yasser

It will no doubt turn into a mudslinging match given your presence here.

No need to be so overly defensive. You weren`t here and people were commenting that this was perhaps the most civilized board in a long time.

I know the English Language is not your strong point... but ``foot in the mouth`` is simply an expression not an insult.

Sure..just like ``remove your head from your rearend`` is a common expression in your household (or so we were told by you)? No wonder you resort to terms like ``masqerade against democracy``, which flies over the heads of ordinary mortals like us.

I was merely waiting for everyone to be done with the inanities before I responded to the main theme... which is something very close to both Salim Mian and my heart.

Aww...desperately looking for Salim`s endorsement? The theme maybe close to your hearts, but Salim is saying exactly the opposite of what you want to hear: and that is Pakistan`s disintegration..LOL!

Re: # 529

It will no doubt turn into a mudslinging match given your presence here.

I know the English Language is not your strong point... but ``foot in the mouth`` is simply an expression not an insult. It describes adequately your condition.

As for why I was ``MIA``... I was not. I was merely waiting for everyone to be done with the inanities before I responded to the main theme... which is something very close to both Salim Mian and my heart.

#526 by Yasser

Why do you always insist on putting your foot in your mouth.... doesn`t the taste bother you?

Instead of answering the question I asked in #244, Yasser mian, you resort to what you`re best at: hurling insults. Yet I will ignore it and ask you once again for the benefit of other interactors: why you were MIA for so long, when you were nonchalantly romping around on UP?

PS: Yaar Salim, now that Yasser has graced this board, it wouldn`t be too long before it degenerates into an ugly slanging match. You were lucky for almost a week, but not anymore.

Dear Salim mian,

As you know ... I agree with almost everything except your clouded vision on partition?

Could you inform me as to how despite the fact that neither Azad nor Kidwai could ever be elected the city district tutpoonjias were they the ``real Muslim leaders`` ....

Jinnah spent 35 years as an elected member representing Muslims in central legislature. The fact that the Muslim masses rejected the assorted variety of Maulanas, ulema and other such ``real`` Muslim leaders for the westernised and secular Kafir-e-Azam Mr. Mahomed Ali Jinnah?

Why is it that a man who was - till 1937- considered too pro-Hindu and too secular to ever lead the Muslims by Muslims .. suddenly became the Quaid-e-Azam... while the ``real`` Muslim leaders ... the bearded clerics... the Sardars from NWFP... the Knighted Sultans of Delhi... the Ulema of Deoband and above all some one of the stature of Maulana Azad sidelined?

The answer is that the Muslim masses instinctively responded to the one man who had not been thoroughly discredited in the course of events... Maulana Azad was played like violin by Gandhi in the 1920s... Come on Salim mian... shed a tear for those idiots who heeded Maulana Azad`s call that India was Darul-Harb and Muslims should move to Afghanistan... only to find out that the Afghans did not want to do jackshit with these fools...

The course of events- as they played out- made the Muslim masses in India realise that the Maulanas were either too foolish or too corrupt to lead the Muslims. They then chose a man whose incorruptibility even his worst opponents were ready to swear on. The Muslim masses responded to the suited booted Mahomed Ali Jinnah precisely because he did not sing the Quran and fool the masses like the Mullahs who had deceived the masses... he was not a Mahatma or an Allama or a Maulana... instead he was a man of action... a lawyer who was ready to win them their case.

But fundamentally what was the case? This is where your understanding of partition falls flat in the face of the facts...

History ought to be seen in its entirety and not just a few points of view... The partition as it occured was not Muslim League`s idea... but the Congress`. Bengal was to a free state according to the League plan (it was Nehru who did not allow that to come to pass forbidding Sarat Bose to negotiate with Suhrawardy) and there was supposed to be an over all union. To first ruin the Pakistan idea and then blaming it on the very people who warned against it simply because they came up with an idea is ridiculous.

The ridiculous argument that the plight of Muslims in India has to do with the creation of Pakistan is simply making an excuse for Hindu majority`s treatment of its Muslim minority if any.

In reality ... the leaders of the Congress had actually become convinced of the idea that India was better off without large tracts of contiguous Muslim majority areas. The Congress leadership had decided ... post its own rejection of the Cabinet Mission Plan... that

1. a safe army was better than a safe border
2. 12% Muslims were better than 29% Muslims....

In a way they were right... with the exception of Kashmir, Indians have managed to carry on nicely.... India is a Hindu Majority country with every state (with the exception of disputed territory) being a Hindu Majority sate.... this is not to say that India is not a constitutional secular state... majorities and minorities are not even a consideration in a secular state.

Furthermore... partition of India was done on the express condition that minorities in both countries would be safeguarded and there would be no exchange of populations. We can go into who did what (and believe me evidence suggests that of those killed more than 70% were Muslims heading from East Punjab to West Punjab and more than 80% of the killing also took place in Punjab - the result of Congress` insistence - using cynically the very Two Nation Theory ironically which it had condemned- on division of Punjab)... but it goes without saying that there was massive exodus both ways.

In addition to this... the complete cleansing of Muslims in East Punjab and Hindus/Sikhs in West Punjab is because of two reasons:

1. First and foremost... Congress` insistence on partition of Punjab. It was wrong because if the principle had to be applied to districts and not provinces .... then according to Congress every Muslim majority district in India of today should have become a small Pakistani enclave and vice versa.

2. Even after applying the principle to districts unconstitutionally, Congress` machinations keeping the Muslim Majority district of Gurdaspur in India (and you can`t call the Ahmadi card here because law is interpretted according to the period and not the subsequent changes thereto... and besides all Ahmadis voted in Pakistan`s favor along with Christians of Gurdaspur).

3. The deliberate dragging of feet by Dominion of India`s first Governor General, Lord Louis Dickie Mountbatten, on the Boundary force ... leaving people in Punjab caught up in a disastrous situation. This was done at the behest of the Indian Prime Minister to deliver a crushing blow to the newly formed Government of Pakistan.

These are the facts gentlemen... what you`ve posted unfortunately is emotional mumbo jumbo which does not stand the test of history...

And finally the whole issue with Bengal... if these gentlemen cared so much for Bangladesh... why didn`t they ask their ``broadminded`` leader Jawaharlal Nehru why he put his foot down disallowing an Independent Bangladesh in 1947 according to the Lahore Resolution?

And how then the undoing of Nehru`s efforts of 1947 in 1971 can be termed as a failure of the idea of Pakistan.... even though we might well have preserved Pakistan had it not been for the Punjabi shortsightedness....

All in all... Pakistan idea has still worked despite the problems.. but would have worked even better for both countries had the Indian leadership not been so obsessed with smashing Pakistan and had the UP Muslim bourgeoisie not been sidelined by the Punjabi feudal-military alliance in 1958.

#510 by ranjit

“Liaquat routed the UP muslims en masse to urban Sindh to create a demographic power base for himself in Paki politics.”

That is actually an urban legend. There were enough mahijir in Karachi immediately before and after the partition that Liaquat would have won the elections anyway. Though, we should question his commitment to elections. I doubt that he would have preferred that method. If he had, Pakistan would have gone thru its first elections in 1950.

I agree that Panipat, Gurgaon and karnal were in Punjab/Haryana but were they Punjabi speaking towns before the partition? ( I don’t know the current status) these towns were so close to UP and with substantial Muslim population before the partition that it is hard not to consider them UP towns. I think Thana Bhawan is closer to these towns than Ambala. But that whole thing is irrelevant to this issue.

It is true that Sindhi Hindu were forced to leave after tremendous pressure from Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad. Hindu’s were the Sindhi middleclass and business persons. They left a vacuum; it took Sindhi middleclass 20 years to re-emerge to fight for their rights in Sindh.

Sindhis were the first ones in Pakistan to protest against the one unit and they forced the end of one Unit. The next natural step was to set up quotas in jobs and education for Sindhi.

1972 saw the re-establishment of Sindhi as the official language of Sindh. The Jang newspaper had this nonsense from that londabaaz Rais Amrohvi all over Jang: “Urdu ka janaza hai bari dhoom say nikaly” and that started a campaign of hatred against Sindhis. It was the reincarnation of mohajir communalism. In India, Hindus were the target of that hate campaign (though it was more in response to what Hindus were doing in UP) and now Sindhi became the target of the same bile. Since 1967, Sindhi have improved enough that they are now standing up for their rights. That is the reason that MQM after first championing the Mohajir rights sees the writing on the wall. MQM is trying to find inroads in Sindhi population by changing itself from Mohajir to Motahida. But as we can tell from Salim’s posts and article that it is still all about Mohajir communalism which is now trending fascism.

One last thing, There are mohajirs allover Sindh even in Larkana and Jacobabad but mostly they are now indistinguishable. People in Tando allahyar, Tando Jam Mirpurkhas and other towns like Sukker and Khairpur speak excellent sindhi. Some even better than I can. It will take one more generation to fix these nutcases in Karachi.

Re: # 244

Harish mian,

Why do you always insist on putting your foot in your mouth.... doesn`t the taste bother you?

BJkumar 454,

One can safely say that had Gandhi not come around with his Ram Rajya and support for religious fundamentalists of all communities... there would have been no need to create Pakistan. Gandhi was- whether or not he had good intentions- the root cause of the problem. The sooner you appreciate this fact... the sooner Pakistanis here can move to dissect the contradictions that you claim Pakistan Movement and Jinnah (post 1937) had to make a Pakistan more in line with the kind of Pakistan that Jinnah spoke of on 11th August 1947... the apparent contradictions which have been touched upon by this article and which I will respond to soon enough.

And no matter what they say in the South of the US... the only saying true for South Asia is ... ``there is no fool like the fool who thinks he is guided by his `inner voice``` ... you know who that is ... don`t you?

Salim Mian

Thanks again for your decent way of interactions. I will always love to support your views in a positive way and even if we disagree upon something, we will disagree with dignity as we always do.

I just read MQM agenda, yes MQM is a good addition against feudalism, which is the main culprit in the backwardness of Pakistan.

Mullahs are very few in active politics, and if they are, they are being used by these feudal politicians who are never sincere in their efforts..........]]]

The main culprit in Pakistani Politics is feudalism. Just think about it.

My only question is, if, MQM is sincere in it`s efforts, then when will MQM have exactly the same kind of rally against the real culprits , feudal lords? that they did today against pseudo mullahs?

80% of Pakistani population is rural and they are hijacked by these corrupt and cruel feudal lords.

If, MQM really wishes to see Pakistan as progressive secular state, then eradicate these feudals.....

And you know what, these feudals are the ones who are using Mullahs for their own corrupt politics.

I will not trust MQM untill they will NOT do anything against feudals.

#509 nauman72

Ama yaar, I asked you a couple of simple, direct questions. It would have been sufficient to say - ``I don`t know``, or more accurately, ``I know the answer, but I don`t like it so I won`t tell you and instead I ask you to go chase birds in bushes!``

Darn, you had me going there for a while as something ``original``!

I should have known. :)

Salim,

You could probably have good intentions, but do you know the history behind why the term ``Mohajir/Muhajir`` is chosen?.. It has negative (or positive) connotations based on one`s perception..

Are you angry that ``Punjabis`` / ``Sindhis`` failed to be the real ``ansars``, the fools who accepted someone else as their leader like the Medinans accepted Mohammad. No wonder Mohammad / Umar ruled that ``ansars`` are not fit to be leaders.. Too bad Punjabis declined to be ``ansars``.. :-)

Re: # 510

Thank you Mr Ranjit, for elobraing my point of view

`` If the hindus had remained there, Sindh would have become a beacon of prosperity and culture, rather than what it has become today``


I will add, it every one had remained there, the parsis, the goans, the jews, the iranis, ...and all the other....similiar enthicities......!!

I have with reference earlier said, Karachi was already a highly developed and sophisticated and cultured center, thanks to the Suez Canal, and General Napier, in making it a Port city, also the great Parsi contribution especially in educational fields
Remember M A Jinnah too , studied in a Karachi`s educational institute and that was way back in 1880`s or so....

...... these Fact I do not know, why fires, the Chadis.........!!


...all these Facts , are there, one just has to go to the Mohata Palace`s Raj Museum, and pick up books written about Karachi and its Past............ before declaring Karachi a sleeping ghost town of the 1940`s., as claimed by SOME, which it was NOT.

Re: # 501

Mr Masadi will say whatever he has to say, he won`t be stopped by either you or Me or any one else...


let me repeat..

`` Barabbas was a member of the sicarii, a militant Jewish movement that sought to overthrow the Roman occupiers of their land by force`` Mark (15:7)


[ Freedom fighter.....???? ]


Interestingly.... ``Barabbas``, or ``Bar-abbas``, translates to ``son of the father``, also.


also

In the book The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail written by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln, there is an idea that Barabbas is son of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. According to authors of the book, this explains why the crowd choose Barabbas to stay alive, because such act will save the dynasty.

..go figure out about the Myths, and Myths......and Myths,.......which create our perceptions.




Oh sorry I forgot , yes please come back to the Topic.

..and where were we.....!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/indepth/cluster/2003/10/031019_army_police_si.shtml

Tyranny of Pak colonial army agianst its own people who pay its salaries

re: nauman72 # 509

To a great extent, you are right on this one, and Beej is wrong. The best of us surrender to the easy allure of ``but for this one person.......``

#508 Zeena {``Thanks, I did read the whole agenda of MQM, very impressive.
...PS:- You have have the potential to be future CE of chowk. We are ready for a change. Just think about it. You have already proved your valid presence on FP. ``}

Zeena,
I am glad that you were able to form your own opinion. I don`t want to be a poster boy for MQM. As I cautioned in my article, we should never put ALL our faith in one party, one leader, or some catchy and emotional slogan ever again. Let`s keep MQM and all other parties honest by demanding that they present their agenda in writing, that they elect their own leaders democratically (not some stupid hereditary right or dada giri-based usurpation), and that they swear to the results of any election. Of course, there should be massive international presence to make sure the elections are fair and just.

On the personal issue of my position on Chowk FP, I am content with the role of novice writer. As I stated earlier I have neither the qualifications nor the temperament to such high office. Thanks for your consistent support. :)

#509 Nauman72, {``To save the minorities from the tyranny of the majority I suggest that we should educate our citizens and inculcate the spirit of tolerance, moderation and balance in them. ``}

Nauman Sahib,
Aameen, brother, aameen. :)
If only our people can understand and support, even defend, the concept of dissent, I am confident that we can get there. :)

#505 by kaalchakra on April 15, 2007 12:15pm PT
{``ranjit, Salim is not really asking for help from anyone. He is addressing himself to other Mohajirs. Only they are in a position to know if they are facing any problems, and how they ought to confront them.``}

Kaal Bhayy,
Thanks for trying to restrain Mr. Ranjit, but really I don`t mind. He is a gentleman and a very good straight man. I am enjoying the whole skull and bones conspiracy. :) Do you think that he is a member?

Revised:

If breaking up of Sindh helps India or not is unimportant. Eg. Bangladesh.

Ranjit #503 {``Most of Liaquat`s land holdings were in western UP. For all practical purposes he was a leader of the UP muslims. ...made Kashmir the ``core`` issue and created most of the ethnic mess in Pakistan by relocating mohajirs in a manner to give them demographic clout over locals. ...Bottom line is this - I believe that UP muslims would have done anything, absolutely anything in the name of Pakistan, if partition had not happened. They had gone beserk with communalism by 1947. The Punjus did most of the killing no doubt. However, the organization, the instigation, the provocations were all due to UP muslim manipulation. UP muslim leaders and the deobandis would go all over Punjab and Sindh to provoke local muslims. There are accounts of them carrying human skulls and bones with them to Punjab to present as ``evidence`` of hindu brutality....Now that the mohajirs have failed in Pakistan, suddenly they have discovered their love for India!! ``}

Dear Ranjit,
You are now sounding like Mr. Chicken Little with his head chopped off. :) Come on, my friend, how can you predict the future of Delhi and UP had partitioned not occurred? How can you determine an outcome similar to Baghdad, where the situation is very different and the demographics, culture, history, and antagonists are not even similar? Man, you are some Nostradamus without the foresight. :)

Again, just because Liaquat Ali Khan had land holdings in another province, it does not change his ethnicity. Also, you may not know this, but the person you call anti-India, anti-Hindu, and the architect of the Kashmir ``problem,`` was possibly assassinated for accepting Mr. Nehru`s offer of a cease-fire and resolution of the ``problem`` through the UN. I believe that it was Gen. Akbar Khan`s conspiracy - perhaps more knowledgeable Chowkies can shed some light on this item.

Skull and bones? - really Mr. Ranjit! Next you will claim that George Bush I and George Bush II assisted the UP Muslims with this cloak and dagger secrecy. Come on, please make some sense. If UP Muslims could not instigate violence in their own province, how could they be so successful in creating the violence in Punjab? We are talking about bhayyas here and not some jihadi warriors - surely you can`t even fool yourself.

Lastly, your statement about Mohajirs having ``failed in Pakistan`` is too much of the wet dream variety. As many Paki Punjus will tell you, the President, Army Chief, PM, and many of the general are Mohajirs. :) (See, I can use this perverse logic to suit my argument too :) ). Mohajirs control the largest and most prosperous city in Pakistan, which is now the largest Urdu/Hindi speaking city in the world - yes, more Urdu/Hindi speakers than Mumbai, Delhi, Lucknow, or Kanpur. :) That is hardly what I would call a failure. Please keep trying with your shotgun approach; you are bound to hit something eventually.

511 Ranjit & Madani,

I dont know abt the official line of the GOI but my understanding is this:

In theory a nuclear state can disintegrate. Eg. Soviet Union.

If breaking up of Sindh helps India or not is important. Eg. Bangladesh

Balochistan becoming thick Green is a deliberate attempt by Islamabad. This is a repetition of (to enrgeen) of Pak`s NWFP policy in Balochistan. (Here I am not recounting the main strands of superpower game in Afghanistan). Any malcontent (from Isloo`s pov) of liberal/secessionist snowballing in these regios can be offset by the aggressive radicalism. NWFP is the case in point. Btw they didnt want these aggressive radicalism in Punjab.

Pl see the long-term plans of Islamabad. They want to resettle Afghan refugees in Baochistan. They halped Mulah Omar/dadullah to recruit in Baloshistan. This policy has already spread this mild Talibanism in Balochstan. Since it wont affect Pakistan in the short-term but it helps Pakistan to neutralise separatism in the garb of mild Talibanism.

I prefer a more subtle analysis esp from Sadna here.

Re:ahmedmadani
[..What is Indian position about Sindhi nationalism. ...]

As far as I know, India has no interest in this matter. First of all, it is impossible for Sindhis to break off given the military strength of Pakistan and the presence of nukes. It could escalate into a nuclear conflict. Secondly, if something happened, refugees would pour into India. Either way it is not going to benefit India.

On the Balochi matter, I believe the mirchi is being done by the Afghanistan government more than Indians, as a counter to the Taliban angle of Pakistan. India might be providing material help or logistical help, as a way to tie down the Pak army there so that it loses focus from Kashmir and Afghanistan. I dont believe India really wants Balochistan to break away. It just wants to create some discomfort to the Pak army to relieve pressure in Kashmir.

Re:raw_dust
[Ranjit: I had heard (not sure how accurate it is) that Liaquat and company intentionally planned all the muhajir settlements in Karachi in order to create a political constituency for himself.....]

That is exactly right. Liaquat routed the UP muslims en masse to urban Sindh to create a demographic power base for himself in Paki politics. The idea was to take over property left behind by Sindhi hindus and/or to force out the hindus still remaining there, while at the same time reestablish a new UP in Pakistan. It is a testament to Sindhi muslims that the hindus did not vanish completely from Sindh. Now Sindhi muslims look at the conditions of Sindh and they get tears in their eyes. If the hindus had remained there, Sindh would have become a beacon of prosperity and culture, rather than what it has become today in Karachi. Basically Liaquat made a complete ch*tiya of the Sindhi muslims...

#494 Salim Chauhan
[I disagree with you that I would probably be categorized as supporting Step 4. Ideally, I would hope that I support Step 1 or even Step 2, but certainly not Step 3. I could be a pragmatist and compromise with Step 4 - as long as you change the statement ``and the world should be divided accordingly`` to ``and the world should be united accordingly - recognizing both democracy and the protection of the rights of all minorities from the tyranny of the majority.]

Sorry Mr. Chauhan for categorizing you in the wrong category. These sort of classifications and categorizations are always oversimplification of facts and they do more evil than good. To save the minorities from the tyranny of the majority I suggest that we should educate our citizens and inculcate the spirit of tolerance, moderation and balance in them.

#495 Kaalchakra
[Beej has a solid model of all socio-politics: All humans are alike, being roughly equally good and equally evil. They have different linguistic, cultural, religious, professional associations, but compete primarily for material resources. Occasionally some greatly evil men (and women) come along who focus their talents on breaking existing bonds and highlighting existing differences. The natural way to do that, is of course, by spreading hate.]

Bolsheviks tried to create a classless and stateless society. In the name of unity and lofty goals they tyrannized and oppressed people from 1917 to 1991 (74 years). The goal of a nation state is the well being of its citizens when this goal changes to “national aggrandizement” then nationalism gives birth to fascism. They united the people of Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia and fought a cold war from 1945 to 1991. Instead of utilizing its resources for the betterment of its citizens they built ICBMs and H-Bombs. In the end it collapsed under its own weight and all that unity forced upon a religiously, ethnically, linguistically and culturally diverse population evaporated in thin air. It is always better to accept the differences and reach an understanding than blaming others for our own misdoings.

#496 BJ Kumar:
[(1) What is the likelihood of the Manto actually being able to convince the vast masses of Pakistanis to his viewpoints and getting elected to a position of power?
(2) What is the likelihood of a liberal, progressive, Pakistan - where women have equal rights and all religions are treated as equal - developing within the next 20 years or so?]

The answer to your first question is that we need to educate our citizens and instill the spirit of tolerance, moderation and balance in them. The answer to your second question is a bit lengthy and I am going to copy/paste one of my essay which I wrote while interacting with Mr. Masadi:

Traditionalism is of two kinds, deliberate traditionalism and unconscious traditionalism. Deliberate traditionalism is a set of rules, customs and traditions made by people for the benefit of the individual and the society with conscious effort and the application of our reasoning faculties. Unconscious traditionalism, on the other hand, is something which creeps into our minds unconsciously and sometimes we are not even aware of it, but it shapes our ideas and ways of thinking.

I consider religion to be a “reformed tradition”. In the 7th century Islam was a step forward from the primitive nomadic culture of Arabia. It united Arabia under one leadership and made it a force to reckon with. Because of this unity Arabs were able to conquer half the world. It gave women their rights. Though slavery was not abolished because it was impossible to do that at that time but the slave owners were ordered to take good care of their slaves and it was considered a virtuous act to liberate slaves. Certain rights were guaranteed to the minorities in an Islamic state. Islam even managed to prohibit gambling, prostitution and liquor which are always and everywhere regarded as immoral and a social nuisance. These were the examples of deliberate traditionalism. A set of laws, customs and moral values which were made for the good of an individual and the society.

But today we live in 21st century. 1400 years have elapsed since the establishment of the first Islamic state in Medina. The society, politics and economy of today’s nation state is much more complex than those simpler times. We cannot find the solutions to all our problems in the Sharia. Neither can we interpret and apply Islamic laws without going into their merits and demerits and using our reasoning faculties. Though Sharia are a set of deliberate traditions but even deliberate traditions are time bound. What holds good today may not hold good for all times and ages.

For example Islam liberated and emancipated women from the primitive tribal customs of Arabia and though it allowed polygamy but discouraged it. Today we cannot allow a male member of the society to have more than one wives because it will be unfair to more than half the population of the world. Similarly today we believe in secularism and the rights of the minorities. We cannot discriminate on the basis of caste, creed and religion. All citizens of a modern nation state must have equal rights and equal opportunities irrespective of their beliefs and religions. By applying our reasoning faculties and the golden rule “do unto others as you have them do unto you” it becomes clear that if you don’t want to get persecuted yourself or the people who hold views similar to your own in a society where they are in a minority then you must not force your views on others who hold opposite or dissimilar views in a society where you are in a majority. This is the essence of secularism. You can persuade people to adopt your views but you can not force people for this purpose.

Finally, I don’t have “an unconditional love for white man and his system of oppression”. The West is facing its own dilemma in the form of disintegration of the institution of family and social and moral evils like drugs, alcoholism, prostitution and pornography. Here in the East we respect our elders and sons continue to live with their parents even after getting married. They donot send their parents to Old Houses when they grow old instead they take care of them. I am not advocating that prostitution and alcohol should be legalized. Not because my faith dictates so. But because I know by using my reasoning faculties that prostitution, pornography, drugs and alcohol are bad for an individual and the society.

Society is in a state of evolution. We have not reached a state of perfection yet and we may never reach that stage. But this doesnot means that we should take a retrogressive stance. We should adopt what is best in time tested traditionalism and also what is good in modernism by applying our reasoning faculties.

#484 Salim Mian

Thanks, I did read the whole agenda of MQM, very impressive.

I wish they work hand in hand with new vibrant and younger Politicians throughout Pakistan and take part in the progress of Pakistan as one unit.

I believe , if, we wish ourselves be progressed , then the only solution is work hard to make whole country developed.

PS:- You have have the potential to be future CE of chowk. We are ready for a change. Just think about it. You have already proved your valid presence on FP.

Re: # 503

What is Indian position about Sindhi nationalism.
GM was told by PM Rajiv he will discourge thoubles they say.
Why Indians are helping BNA and blowing up railways, slectric pylons and gas pipelines.
Same thing can happen to Pakistani pipeline bringing gas near Indian border if blowing happens in B.Stan .

#471 bjkumar sahib
You are welcome.

Yes, I strongly agree with your suggestion of giving our genius, Mr. Salim _Chauhan a fair chance to be future, CE of chowk. Chowk is lucky to have such a vibrant and intelligent person who proved his presence on FP very valid and superior to majority of chowkies.

I second your suggestion.

ranjit, Salim is not really asking for help from anyone. He is addressing himself to other Mohajirs. Only they are in a position to know if they are facing any problems, and how they ought to confront them.

I fully agree with ranjit on #503. #503 has basically neutered all the Muhajir BS of this article.

Ranjit: I had heard (not sure how accurate it is) that Liaquat and company intentionally planned all the muhajir settlements in Karachi in order to create a political constituency for himself.

Re:salim#473
[...I just want to remind you that Liaquat Ali Khan was from Karnal, Punjab. ....]

Most of Liaquat`s land holdings were in western UP. For all practical purposes he was a leader of the UP muslims. You know as well as I do that he was a power hungry sleazebag who hated India, hated hindus, made Kashmir the ``core`` issue and created most of the ethnic mess in Pakistan by relocating mohajirs in a manner to give them demographic clout over locals. As Zeemax mentioned once, Liaquat was overheard saying in frustration that ``Buddha mara nahin`` while Jinnah was on his deathbed.

Bottom line is this - I believe that UP muslims would have done anything, absolutely anything in the name of Pakistan, if partition had not happened. They had gone beserk with communalism by 1947. The Punjus did most of the killing no doubt. However, the organization, the instigation, the provocations were all due to UP muslim manipulation. UP muslim leaders and the deobandis would go all over Punjab and Sindh to provoke local muslims. There are accounts of them carrying human skulls and bones with them to Punjab to present as ``evidence`` of hindu brutality. If partition had not happened, the UP muslims would have turned Delhi and Mumbai into killing fields like today`s Baghdad. Just like the Sunnis are slaughtering majority Shias with car bombs, we would have seen UP muslims ganging up with other muslims to create non-stop bloodbath of hindus all over India. Thankfully we were spared of that fate by Jinnah.

Now that the mohajirs have failed in Pakistan, suddenly they have discovered their love for India!! What a fraud!! The same people who tore up the country with fierce, virulent determination, leading to mass scale slaughter, now want to reverse history. What a brazen attempt to be too clever by the half.

India will never help mohajirs in any shape or form. We have memories of what UP muslims did in the forties and there is no love lost for them. It is a testimony to Indian or rather hindu commitment to secularism, that UP muslims were allowed to still live in India. Otherwise in any other country they would have been kicked out lock stock and barrel after their extreme treasonous conduct at that time. Ideologically we hindus never had any issues with Punju muslims. Punjab never had communal issues for a 1000 years until the UP muslims showed up there with their propaganda. Now that the Punjus rule Pakistan and have shaken off the mohajir influence, I see no reason why we cant be friends with them and lead our lives peacefully, rather than get involved with mohajir issues.

#500 You made the milestone, but still seem to be sans period.

#499, Aquaris,
Yes, by Barabbas I meant a combination of both definitions. Barabbas, a real criminal was set free by Pontius Pilate at the insistence of the hypocritical Jews, who preferred to have Jesus, the rebel rabbi, crucified for his sermons. :( Let`s change the topic before Masadi shows up and elevates the discussion to Masada. :)

Re: # 474


...Infact THANK YOU......


I have always maintained..... Paki Punjoos were taken for a Ride......

BJKumar #471 {``In fact, I think he will make an excellent CE! ``}

BJ Bhayya,
I vehemently disagree. I am not that balanced emotionally or mentally. :) Thank you for the kind thought though.

Aquaris #472, {``Re: # 470
I agree 99% with it. ``}

Aquaris,

Thank you for agreeing with Ranjit Sahib so nearly completely. :) Now I know that my presence in Chowk is making positive contributions to Indo/Pak reconciliation. I feel so worthy. :)

ranjit #470, {``The real mohajirs are people like Abu Safwan and his ilk, especially that ba$tard Liaquat Ali Khan. That is the typical mohajir - virulent to the core against hindus. People like that tried to establish a culture of anti-hindu and anti-India hatred in Pakistan from day one, by subverting the education system and launching blistering propaganda against India. They wanted to grab control over Pakistan in the hope of one day leading a charge against India``}

Ranjit Sahib,
Thank you for your viewpoint. I just want to remind you that Liaquat Ali Khan was from Karnal, Punjab. :) Now, it`s very difficult to consider your rhetoric seriously, isn`t it?

Re: # 470

I agree 99% with it.

``The real reason they wanted Pakistan was their extreme prejudice against hindus. They wanted to reestablish autocratic muslim rule over entire India. They believed that in a democratic, secular united India, their chances were slim``

... Punjabis being short-sighted, or rather, do not think LONG_TERM, Gave them the shoulder they needed to fire the Gun.

the only disagreement

....Unfortunatley they still have not realized it.

#464 Zeena

Thank you little sis! I always knew that YOUR heart is in the right place. :) :)

In view of the all-around positive comments on this article - coming from everywhere, do you agree that we should petition chowk to make Salim mian a featured FP writer?

He clearly has the breadth of knowledge - especially the historical perspective, not only on the subcontinent but on other parts of the world, too, especially Turkey! I think Pakistan could learn a lot from Turkey and hopefully someday emulate its example!

Salim clearly has a sense of humor - he has demonstrated it time and again. It is true that he has gotten into verbal argument with some interactors on UP - but hey, UP IS a different world. One should keep the two worlds - UP and FP separate!

Salim clearly has invested a tremendous amount of time here. I recently scanned through the 38,000 or so current, past and ``deleted`` i-logs on this website and I was impressed to see that approximately half of its volume was directly attributable to Salim mian. Therefore, clearly Salim mian has the time necessary to address a whole range of issues.

Salim has the ability to deal with strong criticism - one can gauge that by reading his response to some of the highly critical interacts on this board - including some of mine!

In fact, I think he will make an excellent CE!

Re:sanatani#469
[..Salim katua is saying now we crewed the Hindus ,Bengalis, Sindhis, Baloch and Pathans and could not not screw the Punjabis let us attempt to break Pakistan by attempting to make friends with our former enemies (enemies these people made themselves by attacking them first) is the breaking up of Pakistan tot the exclusion of Punjabis not an ethnic division? ...]

Sanatani, in spite of the crude language, your analysis is right on the money. The UP muslims always knew that their case against hindu domination in 1947 was laughable given the history of the subcontinent. The real reason they wanted Pakistan was their extreme prejudice against hindus. They wanted to reestablish autocratic muslim rule over entire India. They believed that in a democratic, secular united India, their chances were slim. Therefore, they wanted to create a muslim only country to establish a base, achieve complete control over it and then eventually launch an attack on the rest of India. Do you remember the typical Mohajir slogan - ``Haas ke liya Pakistan. Lar ke lenge Hindustan``?

The real mohajirs are people like Abu Safwan and his ilk, especially that ba$tard Liaquat Ali Khan. That is the typical mohajir - virulent to the core against hindus. People like that tried to establish a culture of anti-hindu and anti-India hatred in Pakistan from day one, by subverting the education system and launching blistering propaganda against India. They wanted to grab control over Pakistan in the hope of one day leading a charge against India. They are the people who always fantasized about planting the paki flag on the red fort. For a while they were succeeding as they managed to get the sindhi muslims and even the punju muslims under their spell.

However, the nefarious dreams of the mohajirs have been shattered for good. The Sindhis and Punjus woke up and realized that they had an ``asteen ka saap`` amongst them, who wanted to subjugate them in their own land. The punjus were in no mood to be ruled by mohajirs. In the ensuing power struggle, the punjus killed Liaquat and later crushed mohajir dreams of dominating Pakistan. Unfortunately the anti-India and anti-hindu virulence was able to gain root, along with the Kashmir issue created by Liaquat. The Punjus foolishly pursued that line till the nineties. It is only recently that the Sindhis and the Punjus have realized that India is not an enemy and that hindus have no interest in dominating anyone. They have now changed their mindsets, which is why we have a peace process today, much to the chagrin of the muhajirs like Abu Safwaans who want to see Indo-Pak and hindu-muslim strife, since that is the only way for them to rally Pakistanis to their basic cause of ruling India.

I am not surprised to see Salim Chauhan talk about reunification and confederaton with India. That is exactly in line with Mohajir ambitions. Since the Pakistan route has not worked, mohajirs have realized that a secular, democratic India is actually a place where muslims could easily call the shots if they had substantial demographics. Their forefathers miscalculated when they thought that a united India would not provide the platform necessary to get power in New Delhi. If they could get back into the game within India, they might still pull off their dream of muslim rule in India. We must be very careful of such intentions. In fact, I think India should exclusively reach out to Punjus in Pakistan and establish cordial, warm relations with them, which are quite possible, while keeping a distance from the mohajirs. The Punjus are not enemies of India - they just want to enjoy their life in Lahore and Islamabad. The Punjus got brainwashed for a while but now have reverted back. The real enemies of India are the people in Pakistan who still dream of muslim rule in Delhi, which is basically a mohajir fantasy only.

Re: # 362

Granted he has got it wrong on Panipat and Gurgaon. It should have been Garh Mukteshwar and Phulpur.

But HP is right on 1 count the Muhajir scum esp the UP variety had it easy (also the Rajsthanis had it much better in fact apart from Alwar, Ajmer and Bharatpur where the rulers had some pride in being Hindu and gave the Muslims a lesson in manners in all othere rajwadas these fkrs made it to Pak under protection DIRECTLY from the Royal Families e.g. all the uncles of the Maharaj of Jodhpur Marwar Baapji escorted the Marwar Muslims to the border where another uncle the Maharao of Amarkot now Umerkot escorted them to where ever they wished to go. All this with Ration and Paani and unlike the Hindus and Sikhs coming from Pakistan with just the clothes on their backs these people went with all their belongings except livestock and it is these people who coined the term Muhajir for themselves as a mark of PRIDE and RESPECT to identify with the original Muhajirs of the peadophile murderer as they were doing Hijrat for the sake of deen)

UP there were riots only when the Hindus started coming in from the West Punjab, so Mr Nehru made it a policy no Hindus will be allowed to cross Delhi and Punjabexcept like my great grandfather who showed oproof of property in Gwalior to be allowed to move there.

Another qstn why did UP not have riots like Punjab in 1947 when it had riots on issues like Shahidganj. Answer to this is in UP the cradle of Pakistan they decided that discretion was the better part of valour. Despited being outnumbered 5 to 1 the Muslims were always evenhanded in riots as in Western UP they had a much higher poulation 33% and were much better organised. The sheer ferocity of the Hindu Sikh response in the East Punjab to the West Punjab NWFP riots and the sheer ferocity of the Hindu response in Bihar to the events in Bengal (where Mr Nehru threatened to Bomb Bihar by air) and the local homegrown riots Garh M and Phulpur where lowly Gops and Kurmis showed the Macho Pathans its not always about size made them decide this.

Now to cut a very long story to just long.

HP Sain is saying and also not saying

The large majority of Muslims from UP who came came after the Ghadar was over

The Muslims of Rajsthan came anyway without Ghadar at all. The people from the above 3 districts mentioned were sent to the camps around Delhi and then they came back to their respective cities after Madar Das had been assasainated allowing for a vicious anti Hindu pogrom by Nehru and this was part of the same strategy

The Muslims of Punjab faced much greater hardship in terms of violence and property destroyed and because they were mostly illiterate they suffered more to get their claims
The UP Muhajirs who came (they were not called Mujairs then) with the help of the Sindhi Muslim fools wrecked havoc on the Hindus of Sindh. The UP Muslims got the money property and women while the Sindhi Muslims got contempt and a grudging thank you from the ones who got MPW (HP probably does not wish to say this but they made a royal choothiya out of his community)

Everything was fine till Bhutto came and thes fkrs who were in the forefront of denying Bengalis Bengali and who formed the bulk of the Razakar Movement in EastPak turned against Butto for 3 reasons:

1) Repatriation of Biharis
2) Provincial Quotas
3) Allowing Sindhi equal status to Urdu

Note no 1 was an afterthought demand to help swell their numbers

Zia to counter the Sidhis encouraged the MQM. To thwart Benazir the ISI in the 1988 elections lavishly funded them and encouraged them to kill Sindhis. MQM got emboldened and killed Punjabis (big mistake) Rangers and Army under first Nawaz then BB broke the back of this extortionist terrorist movement. As happens a few thousand innocenst were also killed but the number dead was lesser than what the Mujairs had done to the other communities.

Now they are saying we are oppressed we are murdered. But didi anyone protest against the killings of the MQM in the late 80`s or early 90`s no.

Indian wet dreams are made up of a division of Pakistan. And a hatred of Jinnah and a love for the Congressi Muslim showboys like Kidwai, Azad and Zak. So suddenly when Salim Chauhan abuses J and praises these Kangress mdrchoods he is god for you.

So Dhimmi Anil says ``Salim`s thesis is indeed weak, but a bold attempt. In today`s times and going forward there is no room for further religious or ethnic divisions`` instead of castigating the rubbish it is for. Salim katua is saying now we crewed the Hindus ,Bengalis, Sindhis, Baloch and Pathans and could not not screw the Punjabis let us attempt to break Pakistan by attempting to make friends with our former enemies (enemies these people made themselves by attacking them first) is the breaking up of Pakistan tot the exclusion of Punjabis not an ethnic division?

Actually this is the problem with us Hindus and esp those of the Dhimmi variety like Anil. They are desparate to see Hindu Muslim unity where none exists e.g. 1857. They will call Mangal Pande a patriot forgetting it was these Mangal Pandes who helped the Brits conquer India. They will cite the mutiny as the 1st war of Independence as a few Hindus foolishly joined an overwhelmingly Muslim effort (in terms of ideology and isnpiration) to restore the Empire to its pristine Ayrangzebi ways much in the way Shah Waliullah ahd asked Abdali to invade India to restore Nizam-e-Mustafa and defeat shirk and Kufr and offered him the wealth of the Temples of Mathura and all the women he could carry as Ghanimeyah for doing his religous duty of a Jehad

Similarly Bj Kumar has called Jinnah names for thre partition violence. Ok let us accept that. But call Gandhi and Names also for the people who die in riots in India as they refuse to do an exchange of population. Somehow they consider this act of leaving a body of traitors insisde the body of the motherland a great patriotic act in the name of secularism so what if a few thousand Hindus are killed every year by them.

Why am I bothering about Salim Chauhan I should bother about Anil and BJ and the other assorted traitors who are unable to see reality and will willingly sacrifice the motherland to slogans of secularism as Gandhi, Nehru and the other bunch of baastaurds did.

Salim katue jise gaal deni hai de I am out of this let me get our own houyse in order.

Fkk u u bunch of traitors and mullah lovers
Sanatani

Anil ma ke lover kabhi haath lag gaya to tere jism ke ethnic or sectarian division jaroor karoonga

Salimbhai

Since these days every Ram, Natthu, and Mahmood seems to be (quite unnecessarily) making a dash for `democracy` (as if that will be a panacea that will turn the world around), let`s acknowledge that Nauman indeed identified a real, genuine problem with democracy:

All said and done, it IS a form of `dictatorship` of the majority.

#460
[ Ms. Zeena, the marathon runner, has never – to the best of my knowledge, repeat NEVER, used abusive language against ANY interactors!}


...never say never...coz that proves your ignorance...

#428 by nauman72

Your questions are not harsh at all. Only by putting your views forward can we expect to resolve any differences. So, please, count me glad to answer these and any other questions you may have.

Q: Was it possible for Hindus and Muslims to live peacefully together, like all “non-majority” communities, under the British Imperialism forever?

No. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Indian Christians and all others formed an overwhelming majority against a tiny ruling class of the white British. There doesn`t seem to be any reason why this tiny population of the country should have held all the power.

Q: Or, did the era of modern nation states, the concept of democracy, self-determination and the “will of the majority” made it impossible to live under a perpetual imperialism, be it of foreign masters or a permanent numerical majority of another religion and a civilization?


This is not a well-formulated question. Could you please clarify the notions of perpetual imperialism and permanent numerical majority? Then, it will be a pleasure to think through this with you. Thanks in advance.

While the land of photocopier Ataturks are busy wasting time writing articles, ilogs, interactions on Chowk it is heartening to read a news item related to the land of original Ataturk. This is from Daily Times.

Sunday, April 15, 2007
300,000 Turks rally against Islamic president

ANKARA: Around 300,000 Turks marched on Saturday to try to stop the ruling AK Party from picking Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan as their presidential candidate next week because of his Islamist roots.

The AK Party has its background in political Islam, and a possible presidency headed by Erdogan has split this secular but predominantly Muslim country seeking European Union membership.

“Turkey is secular and will remain secular forever,” shouted protesters as they waved national flags and banners of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the revered founder of the republic. Tens of thousands of people were bussed into the capital Ankara from across the country to attend the rally organised by a staunchly secularist association in Tandogan square.

Many of the speeches attacked the United States and the European Union, calling on Turks to defend their country – echoing a rise in nationalism over the past year.

“We are warning the deputies in parliament. We are worried that the secular character of Turkey will be removed if Erdogan or Bulent Arinc (AK Party member and parliament speaker) is elected president,” said Huseyin Ozen, a retired teacher.

Erdogan denies any Islamist agenda and says he has broken with his past and is now a conservative democrat. “We are here to defend the republic. We are here to defend the women’s rights which Ataturk gave to us ... I hope Erdogan will not become president,” said Sanem Erdem, a 28-year-old shop owner.

Analysts say the rally will be the last opportunity for secularists to pressure the AK Party to pick a compromise candidate for head of state. reuters

bjkumar sahib

Alright, don`t get riled up. Forget, what I wrote and forget what you said.

Just carry on with what your POV is...........Sorry, for imposing my ideology here.
If, you hate Pakistan and our Quaid-e-Azam.............I will not ask you to love them.

But, I saw Miss Farzana Versey`s today`s i-log, and I believe you have half heartedly apologized to her in the past as per her i-log.

I won`t expect you to apoligize to her again, Just forget it. And be happy.
I am a little emotional person and when I read Miss Versey`s today-s i-log, I got emotional and posted that post to you.

I am not chowk`s moral police and I am not chowk staff, either.

Bye

Re: # 364

Farzana:

[[Anil Wrote: ``Kashmir is not our problem.``, this is a questionable vision whether it comes from you or from Farzana who is trying in the same old mindset to distribute problem.

We all must start seeing it as an opportunity. For example, can spend time to allocate opportunities about Kashmir, instead of distributing problems about it.]]

[FV Wrote: I have always talked about autonomy. Please read what I said. It stated that it has also become a problem for India. And this gentleman I met clearly told me so. We do not need ESP to understand that. We, as in India and Pakistan, have been opportunistic as far as the state goes, and what opportunities can be allocated when basic funds are not and even a road link came after years?]

We both know that our stands on Kashmir are different. Not ESP, Frazana, but pure common sense and reality will drive greater autonomy. Achieving goals through economic development and political reforms is the way.

In this scenario Construction is an opportunity, many years ago I had asked to you could help adopt a Kashmiri Village, all of these are opportunities. Now more than ever, and I along with my friends, would love to adopt a multi-religious village in Kashmir. Can you help? Please do not say these are not opportunities.

I have always believed and stated that greater autonomy within the framework of Indian system (not just the constitution, as system allows its amendments also) will come not just for Indian Kashmir, but all other states in India. In fact many years ago I wrote an essay that was published on Chowk.

The reasons are and shall be economic development and evolution of political system. Although, I have not checked recently, until a few years ago Indian states controlled 50% of India’s GDP, the central government has no control whatsoever. All growth cannot be realized without ensuring state’s involvement. Economic development has been faster, is also transferring GDP to the south. Politics has also changed that no single party can easily form a government in the center. The revenue sharing continues to be based on formula worked out in 1956 by state reorganization commission.

New realities will drive negotiations for new revenue sharing and seat allocations in the parliament, as currently a party / coalition that does not secure majority in the laggard states of the U.P. and / or Bihar cannot form a government in the center. This is absurd, and would have to change. I had concluded in that essay that whatever would the basis or blueprint for the greater autonomy for Kashmir, will also be the basis for devolution of power to states.

[[ANIL Wrote: All of which will be without Jinnah`s TNT or Hindu Mahasabha`s Atut-Ang, or all of which now belong in the heap of time.]]

[FV Wrote: It is strange that anyone can even compare Jinnah (his TNT? Huh?) with the HM.]

Not you of all people, Farzana, you know it too well, that neither my sentence nor my perpetual stand compares Jinnah with HM. I have repeatedly stated my stand that Jinnah is an abandoned Indian hero, who must be restored to his right place in Indian history. Don’t you think you are showing a rush to make a statement here? There is enough proof that without Jinnah’s support TNT had no chance, and without HM, Atut-Ang had no support. These guys took Gandhi’s life, whichever side of the fence you sit on Gandhi, these are undeniable realities.

On Fatwa:
[FV Wrote: It is a known fact that people choose to ignore, and if this was the first time you got to know, then I am glad. If it were an edict to kill, then Rushdie, Taslima and a host of others would have been dead long ago.]

My point is greater Farzana, the burden is on the believers like yourself to insist on the acceptance and enforcement of “Fatwa” as an “advisory” as a definition. Romair, responded as that it is not just an advisory. Merely stating that it is good that I now know, is not enough, I saw a BBC documentary where they had interviewed terrorists who were saying that before they on their missions they always obtain a Fatwa. Like minded Muslim intellectuals and people who can influence the policies should propagate and support enlightened moderation.

#442 by Salim_Chauhan

[They conspired, fabricated, and stage-managed the invasion of Iraq and can only blame themselves for its effects.]

Needless to say, I disagree. I believe that the GWB intervention was made in good faith. The military war was won rather easily. I can not – in good conscience – blame GWB for underestimating the level of inherent animosity within the various Iraqi factions – especially the hatred between the Shias and the Sunnis! Few people in the outside world could.

Yes, the American public has only limited appetite for this sort of thing – and it can only be spending its own money and shedding its own blood only for so long and not in an open-ended manner – to bring democracy elsewhere!

But such a loss of appetite is not something to celebrate, in my view!

Remember, most of the killings are being done by OTHERS! And eventually, when the Americans leave – as looks likelier day by day, those killers will still be there.

Only with less defenders in place!

#447 by Zeena
[You can fine me $50]

Little sis, while you are in a cheerful mood, can I prevail upon you to pay my share too?! Just tell my dear mianji that it is for a good cause! That ought to do the trick! You don’t wish to see me in the chowk slammer, I hope! I am sure that Salim will reduce the fine in my case a bit!

#All interactors

Since the issue has been brought up, let me point out to all those who care that indeed, my little sis – Ms. Zeena, the marathon runner, has never – to the best of my knowledge, repeat NEVER, used abusive language against ANY interactors! The fact that some of her interacts are a bit long-winded should not be considered being “abusive”! it is simply a testimony to her long hours of training for her marathon runs – an activity particularly useful to, if generally disregarded by, the vast majority of (sedentary) chowkies!

#432 by hamidm2

Dear sir, kindly read my #456 one more time!

#429 by Salim_Chauhan

[In reality, true democracy does not mean ``mob rule.`` In the US and other democratic societies, there are clear-cut guarantees against the tyranny of the majority.]

An extremely important point which is almost always overlooked by many desis. The whole concept of a filibuster comes to mind! A simple numerical majority does not mean that issues do not get debated and fairness gets overlooked – in fact the smaller the margin of majority, the higher the level of debate! The American public likes it just that way! It is generally felt that giving too much power to politicians is an invitation to disaster.

And who can disagree with that line of thinking – especially if one watches the subcontinental poltics!

#427 by Zeena

Kindly do not try to subvert the intents of the chowk management behind keeping UP and FP separate. UP is a members only area for a very good reason and people use all kinds of words with very limited moderation and editing (which is not MY job!)! Enough said!

You remain my little sis, irrespective!

However, please do not entertain any false hopes that my personal admiration for your sticking by your own principles will stop me from openly and candidly stating my own views! Thanks, little sis!

#422 by hamidm2

Sir, your conspicuous and futile effort to deliberately drop my name into arguments nothing to do with any discussion issues at hand – all because you are incurably smitten by my charms – are to be denounced by one and all of the vast, tired, not-so-poor, and suffering chowk masses!

#389 Salim my dear

To cut through buck-waas, I stand by my assertion that mohajirs are no different from any other immigrants to any other land – and the fact that Pakistan was just being set up at the time is not relevant! Immigrants generally start out below those who are already present in a geographical location – immigrants generally work harder than the “natives”, perhaps of necessity – and immigrants therefore build themselves up. This happens all over the world and Pakistan is no different. Case closed.

#383 nauman72

Yaar, that is one exceptionally well-written post! Needless to say – you have rightly pointed out that the power of the pocketbook overrides all. You also indirectly (and perhaps unintentionally) prove that in the absence of economic bonding, other factors (religion, etc.) can hold out only for so long as uniting agents of a country.

You have made a case for territorial integrity being useful for maintaining national unity – I am not so sure. The only way in which this makes a difference is by letting the army move quickly from one part to another, perhaps to suppress rebellion. Does that help in the long run? I doubt it. Post 1971, the territorial integrity was always there. Is Pakistan more likely to break up now than in 1972 – you tell me! if the answer is no more or no less – then it also proves that the presence of such integrity did not help create much in terms of any bonding of the national identity!

Salim mian may or may not be right regarding what he sees as a further breakup of Pakistan – nobody here has the power of seeing the future and that is clearly just one man’s opinion. In the Pakistan, for the last sixty years or so, the tendency has been to try to enforce unity through the khaki might rather than attempting to address any needs of the population (other than feeding them the afeem of religion) so the economic bonding is weak and the centrifugal forces remain strong – the khakis then end up in a quandary – without loosening their grip, it is impossible to improve the economy and by loosening the grip, there is a possibility that the centrifugal forces will tear the place asunder – such tearing up has perhaps already taken place at the “heart and mind” level – if one like me (an outsider) is to go by the tone of the interacts here. I hope all the best for your optimistic evaluation but I can also see how the mian Salim (budding writer and CE material) will come to his less than optimistic predictions.

Your attempt to justify what the Jinnah did provides little new information than what has been done countless times by the apologists for that man – most notable by Yasser (in his own inimitable way!). You are entitled to create as many “complexities” as you wish – that is your right, and that is what many criminals’ lawyers do to obfuscate the cases against their clients – but in its essence the concept is rather simple. The similarity between the apartheid South Africam, the pre-1953 American South and other cases of segregation around the world are too striking to ignore – simply because a big chunk of Pakistani intellectuals lack the guts to say so openly! This “will of the majority” business to break-up a country has no less legitimacy when applied to the distinct Pakistani provinces than how it applied between the Hindu and Muslim “constituencies” prior to partition – when even the geographical separation was diffused!

Also, when everything is said and done – there is also the question of what the intent of individual leaders is! Gandhiji wanted to unite people, have them bridge their differences, live together – his use of the term “Ram Rajya” was not a RELIGIOUS vision, it was simply his nomenclature for (perhaps) an utopian vision!

Jinnah – perhaps he was a brilliant lawyer – no matter whose case he was pleading – individual clients or individual communities! He simply came up a cropper as a nation’s builder – because he was separating people – hitting with his powers of articulation at the fault lines which had existed for a long time – creating further animosity and eventually devastation of the land that he was a son of, that gave him sustenance!

As they used to say in the American south (and elsewhere) during the darkest period of interracial discord:

“There is no bigot like an educated bigot!”

#452 (add-on)

If they do make you the CE, please petition them to make my little sis your assistant! That will perhaps get me back into her good books.

And do not forget who actually fought on your behalf by proposing the idea!

Salim,

My dear, I am distressed to see you add my name among the “culprits” who have been off-topic. I dutifoolly maintain that everything I have said on your board has been exactly on target! :)

Khair!

Congratulations on approaching (and most likely surpassing) the 500 (or for all I can project, even 1,000) interacts. (Heck, if you are nice to me I can even help you along! :) You are well aware that I REALLY try to help people – unlike others whose words amount to little more than hot air. :))

Those interactors who have pulled out my “wayward” words from UP over here (and to other areas which are available to the general public) ought to be cited for subverting the intent of the chowk behind restricting access to UP where the monitoring (perhaps on purpose) is more relaxed!

I may have a few more comments on your piece, but I do maintain that you are fresh blood – your writing is well-received by virtually everybody and chowk should seriously consider making you a featured writer. In view of your ability to get along with virtually everybody (even I) and bring about a meeting of minds rather than create acrimony – which is truly a gift, they should definitely consider making you the CE – in my opinion, you will definitely perform better than anybody in that role that I have ever seen here.

Ref sanatani #246

[Also we could have made Pakistan a nightmare in 1947 by insisting on a complete EoP the way Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar insisted.

Where is that charlatan Harimau let us here from him the explanation of Brahmanical failure and SC wisdom in 1947.]

I subscribe to the theory that Motilal Nehru was impotent and Jawaharlal was actually the son of a Muslim friend of the family who frequented Anand Bhavan.

That would explain a whole lot about Jawahar including his faggotry. ;)

Sorry Saleem,

That`s my mistake. I did it reluctantly.

I hope u`d pardon me 4 that.

Re: # 435

Zeena:

I have never understood, how suddenly in the middle of arguments revelations come to daughters that they will stop arguing and fighting and swallow pride and would take completely opposite position to be on the same side. My two daughters when they were young, and sisters even now, would times be arguing and come to me to help resolve. I used to feel honored, and in all honesty would get involved to help resolve, only to find them on the same side and arguing with me. Shortly afterwards I realized to stop when this turn happened, as they had come to the same side, and point them that they can be on the same side, only if they can find some common one to talk (I would not use argue to be diplomatic) about. That indeed is the dispute resolution. Now I do miss this role though, as they have moved on in their own lives.

Salim Mian

If, you can share with us. What is the exact agenda and stand of MQM?

Is it only for Karachiitis? Or Is it for the whole nation?

Thanks

Salim Mian

Just last irrelevant post for you...........I promise, no more irrelevant posts for future....

You can fine me $50.........for that....LOL....

Thank you very much for clearing this up. I apologize for misreading your post as[[[extra-marital]]]..................

I am really sorry about that lil misunderstanding from my part.

Message from Altaph Bhai

Altaph bhai has read this article and all interacts and has sent us a message, which is reproduced below, verbatim.


``I wish to convey my salam to all brave Mohajirs of Lalukhet, Korangi, Orangi, Buttnangi, Golimar, Phusimar, Water Pump and Bhains Colony for their brave participation on this thread where they fought the evil Punjabi oppressors``



``I want to remind you that you are the proud bearers of the Ganga Jamni tehzeeb and need to take special care of your churidar pyjamas, like my churidar pyjama that was hand dipped in both Ganga and Jamna by Muttarwaqeen Bhai Shaheed, MQM unit incharge of Water Pump on his visit to India.``




``We Mohajirs are superior to the Punjabis, Pathans, Sindhis, Baluchis, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Parsis, Makranis, Chinniotis, Malyalees, Afghanis, Aga Khanis and Baqar Khanis. We are superior because we are all Syeds, Siddiquis, Faruquis, Usmanis, Naqvis, Zaidis and decendents of other holy and pious people. The rumor that most of us descended from bhangi and chamar converts is spread by the evil Punjabi establishment. It is a coincidence that Kallu Chamar MLA of Harijan Party looks like my twin brother, in fact it can be a conspiracy of the evil Punjabi intelligence agencies``



``Finally, I want to congratulate Salim_Chuhon on this occasion. Come gimme a hug and a chummi, mibiatch``

re: Salim_Chauhan

Massacres of 1947 were communal in nature, not ethnic or racial. It was not sparked by the politicians. Nor could they control it. Punjab has never seen violence of that kind either before 1947 or after it.

In contrast, the ethnic strife perpetrated in 1980s by MQM was political in nature. It was sparked by one political party and its leader to divide Pakistan and Sindh along ethnic lines and damage the PPP. Violence was used as a deliberate political instrument. Football grounds were turned into torture cells. Slogans like ``Qaid ka jo ghadaar hai, maut ka haqdaar hai``.

This violence is not an aberration. It is by design. And that`s a big difference!

#440 Salim Mian

The one female I referred to is [[[Saminasha2]] and ofcourse along with her die hard supporter(scout new)................


You and Sobia are matured enough to solve this issue................if, both of you seriously wish to.....................

I WILL not interfere further.............

Carry on with the exact topic of your article. I will add to your article more and ofcourse positively.............

Folio, Zeena, klpd, BJKumar,

My dear friends,
I have to be a party pooper here, but we have a forum with a specific topic for discussion. From now on, anyone posting irrelevant posts or those pertaining to UP (not the esteemed province of India) altercations will be fined $10 per line. The proceeds will be sent to Muhammadpur Refugee Camp in Dacca, Bangladesh for airplane tickets (in first class) to Quaid-e-Azam International Airport.

#433 Nauman72 {``I am sorry for getting a bit sentimental but the actions of US and other “democratic societies” these days are no different than mobocracy. ``}

Nauman Sahib,
I can well understand your confusion and, more importantly, confusion with the ``democracy`` of the current environment in the US and UK. First, we have to understand the pernicious effects of 9/11 and 7/7 - these were horrible and 100% of the perpetrators came from Muslim societies and advocated an extremist Muslim agenda. Having said that, there is no excuse for the Patriot Act, the excesses committed daily at airports, or the almost open season for hunting Muslims or those resembling Muslims.

Speaking of democracy, we had an election in the US in 2000 and the man with the fewer votes won. :) Daddy`s Supreme Court and a handful of Florida Muslims handed Dubya the White House.

However, it was the disdain of democracy that eventually got both Bush and Blair into the trouble they are in today. They conspired, fabricated, and stage-managed the invasion of Iraq and can only blame themselves for its effects. I think ``democracy`` occurred in 2006 with the Democrats putting the reigns on Dubya`s runaway adventurism. Thanks for your comments and a very polite and intelligent manner of discussion.

Interactors & Saleem,

Sorry for this. I`ve got to reproduce this from Shandana`s board.

ANYBODY WITH CHOWK ID CAN SEE THE TRUE PICTURE OF UP FOR URSELVES.

---

#1579 by Folio on April 14, 2007 1:44pm PT

Zeena,

I opened a thread meant for Yasser. The caption is eye-catching but the contents are not. (I posted the thread here).

Sobia jumped in & called me idiot and demented. Why she started calling me like that. WHY?

You want me to keep silent and take all the abuses against me?

Zeena, dont make a scene here. Members who had IDs wud see the whole muck there.

I dont want the muck of UP (incl ali`s post) on this board. Hope good sense prevails.

Btw, pl dont engage in personal remarks.

Much appreaciated.

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#1577 by Folio on April 14, 2007 1:31pm PT
Zeena,

Are u going to reproduce the shit with toilet seat published by ur Jihadi-in-arms ali1?

U are as usual over-reacting. Making personal comments is uncalled for Zeena.


UP is an underground den. Keep those UP matters away from the discussion.

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[Reply to interact #1577]

#1576 by Folio on April 14, 2007 1:22pm PT

Zeena,

It`s mutual btw her/him & me. I dont look at the other interactors that way.
What u are doing is mud-slinging.

If u want to know she called me worst kinda names.

For ur benefit: I NEVER ABUSED anybody ON MY OWN. It`s OTHERS who flung abuses FIRST. What I did was PAYING THE MEMBER IN THE SAME COIN.

I hope u are happy now.

Chowk Staff:

Pl do filter this post & the post of Zeena below this. Thanks

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[Reply to interact #1580]

#1579 by Folio on April 14, 2007 1:44pm PT
Zeena,

I opened a thread meant for Yasser. The caption is eye-catching but the contents are not. (I posted the thread here).

Sobia jumped in & called me idiot and demented. Why she started calling me like that. WHY?

You want me to keep silent and take all the abuses against me?

Zeena, dont make a scene here. Members who had IDs wud see the whole muck there.

I dont want the muck of UP (incl ali`s post) on this board. Hope good sense prevails.

Btw, pl dont engage in personal remarks.

Much appreaciated.

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#435, Zeena,
I am sorry. Please change ``burying the hatchet in Sobia`` to ``burying the hatchet with Sobia``. My bad.

It should read as follows:

Zeena,
I have no problem burying the hatchet with Sobia. All she needs to do is to stop mutilating my last name and refrain from constantly bringing up my name in a derogatory and abusive manner. I doubt that she is capable of keeping a truce, because she is too heavily under the influence of Scout (yes, Scout(new)) the eternally jealous antagonist and utterly profane villain of Chowk. :(

#435, Zeena,
I have no problem burying the hatchet in Sobia. All she needs to do is to stop mutilating my last name and refrain from constantly bringing up my name in a derogatory and abusive manner. I doubt that she is capable of keeping a truce, because she is too heavily under the influence of Scout (yes, Scout(new)) the eternally jealous antagonist and utterly profane villain of Chowk. :(

Salim Mian

I apologize for this post..................


#432 hamdim2

Carry on with your garbage...........this shows where you`re coming from.............

#434 Folio

I can also see where you`re coming from....................

Laugh out loud..........for insulting our Prophet(PBUH) by an IGNORANT.............

Just read this , if, you can insult our Prophet(PBUH), you can insult others as well............
#1566 Folio

Folio

And, here is your abuse towards my fellow Pakistani female interactor , called Sobia on un plugged...............SHAME ON YOU.....AND SHAME ON YOU TWICE for abusing Sobia.................

Look @ your posts and decide, who you are? A real woman abuser............

[[[[#13 by Folio on April 14, 2007 9:15am PT
U underground beytch.....why dont u answer posts on FP? Dum nahin ya paisa jyada nahi miltie??


user posts | profile


#12 by Folio on April 14, 2007 9:11am PT
Sobby Beytch,

Salim on anyday wud give u handful... How much do you enjoy is upto u. Kyon, beycth with a deyck
user posts | profile


#11 by Folio on April 14, 2007 9:11am PT
Sobby Beytch,

How much do u get 4 this sucking business everyday??

#18 by Folio on April 14, 2007 9:31am PT
Sobia eunuch,

Tell whether u have a deych or a another thing?? I think u put ur lil ugly mug in ur arse??
#20 by Folio on April 14, 2007 9:39am PT
Beych,, get some flying phukk from Salim...

#22 by Folio on April 14, 2007 9:50am PT
Sobia..tell me how we can do a flying phukk ]]]

Yes, now I understand where you`re coming from.................tsk, tsk, tsk.............

Now, come and start abusing me instead...............I do not care.....this is the way you are and you will be....................I am showing you just a mirror...........]]]]

Re: # 435

... this post is hilarious !

thank god it is not christmas and i don`t need any bulbs !

#432, Hamidm2 {``....... don`t forget that he, the first mohajir, went back to conquer mecca and throw out the idols from the kaaba - we expect your people to do the same ......... inshallah, one day, you too will go back to conquer cp, up, bihar, raise the green and white on the red fort in delhi and circumcise bj-bin-kumar .............. and then if you have some time you can tear down all those idol filled mandirs along the ganges ........... takbeer !

p.s. i am sure you can get a few pathan and punjabi ansars to come along - as somone said, the sindhis don`t like to leave home even with their american express cards ........``}

Hamidum Sahib,
LOL - Especially that part about the Sindhis not leaving home even with their Amex cards.:)

Finally, you are back to normal. Was the Budweiser truck late today?

Salim Mian #429

Thanks.........

Just one request, if, you stop your fight with Sobia............B/c I do care for her. I met her, she is very decent girl, trust me.

Even, if, both of us fought in the past for a very brief period of time,just b/c I got involved in that fight, which was actually started by another female interactor( You know whom) , I do not wish to mention the name of that particular female interactor.

Later, I realized that it was not only your fault, but, also the fault of the other female interactor, who equally abused you and not only that she made it a life time daily routine to harrass you and abuse you. She made groupies with all the females and males and tried her best to ban you from this web site....................

I still remember, you ignored her and you even apologized to her on multiple occasions, but, she made it a life and death issue...............

I always stood up for her rights in the past and @ one point considered her my cyber friend.

But, she always in the past and currently ganged up against me, did everything possible to harrass me, abused me with the vilest abuse possible..................she made it a life time mission to gang up against me and not only that she supported all the men on un plugged, who abused me...........she got friendly with all those men who made it their life time mission to insult me with the worst abuse possible.........................

She victimized me and then started playing all innocent................

She and her abusive gang is the only reason , I quit Un Plugged.............

Both of us forgave and forgot and carry on with our lives............................

I know with that particular interactor you can not have any reasonable interact.............

But, Sobia on the other hand seems quite reasonable..............I am NOT imposing my views on you..............

If, you think, I am being unreasonable here, Please, forgive me and forget about this post.

I will always stand up for the right action and will support you with open heart and open mind for your right stand.............Thanks for being nice with me.

#432 by hamidm2 on April 14, 2007 1:20pm PT

Hilarious. LOL

#429 by Salim Chauhan:
[In reality, true democracy does not mean ``mob rule.`` In the US and other democratic societies, there are clear-cut guarantees against the tyranny of the majority.]

Mr. Chauhan, I accept and admire your view that democracy is actually not a “will of the majority” but a “government by consensus”. But just for argument’s sake, can there be any “clear-cut guarantees” against the tyranny of the majority? 1800 Americans died due to Katrina but the US government did not declare “war against hurricanes”. 3000 Americans died as result of tragic incident of 9/11 and the US government declared a “war on terror”. Two sovereign nations were invaded and occupied with the approval of the Congress, i.e. the will of the majority. 6,50,000 Iraqis got massacred as a direct result of this war and the anarchy and instability created by this war. Was it the revenge of those 3000 American lives? Or the weapons of mass deception? Or the Iraqi oil in an energy starved world? Or simply because the “national ego” of a super power got hurt pretty bad? The right course could’ve been to improve the efficacy of intelligence gathering and law enforcement agencies. How did invasion and occupation of two sovereign nations help root out the scourge of terrorism? I am sorry for getting a bit sentimental but the actions of US and other “democratic societies” these days are no different than mobocracy.

Re: # 431

salim mian,

.... zeena beti is right in bringing up the holy prophet (pbuh and his camel) - he was the original mohajir from mecca and you should be following in his exalted footsteps ....... don`t forget that he, the first mohajir, went back to conquer mecca and throw out the idols from the kaaba - we expect your people to do the same ......... inshallah, one day, you too will go back to conquer cp, up, bihar, raise the green and white on the red fort in delhi and circumcise bj-bin-kumar .............. and then if you have some time you can tear down all those idol filled mandirs along the ganges ........... takbeer !

p.s. i am sure you can get a few pathan and punjabi ansars to come along - as somone said, the sindhis don`t like to leave home even with their american express cards ........

#426 Zeena {``If, you do not believe that Prophet Mohd(PBUH) was the last Prophet and if, you disrespect prophet Mohd(PBUH), like almost all mirzaais have had been doing on this web site in the most derogatory way possible.

I stood up for my Prophet Mohd(PBUH)..................and got the vilest abuse possible from all chowk mirzaais and their female close friends.

These chowk mirzaais openly posted that they do not believe Prophet Mohd( PBUH) is the last prophet and that Mohd(PBUH) was a false prophet and they called HIM(PBUH) the worst names possible. ``}

Zeena,
I appreciate this welcome detour. :) You and others know my true and sincere feelings for our Holy Prophet (PBUH). My love for God`s Mercy to Mankind (PBUH) stops just short of worship. Yes, I believe that He (PBUH) was the greatest of God`s creatures and the Seal of the Prophets. As for people demeaning his sacred name and making other claims, I say let them. The more they dishonor him, the more exalted will be his name and his standing. Abu Sufyaan, Dante, and Washington Irving are all dead and gone, but the Holy Prophet`s (PBUH) name is still loved and honored by over a billion human beings. :) Don`t worry, Allah will not allow His Messenger (PBUH) to suffer. :)

I do not approve of people on Chowk abusing you for your beliefs in defending the Holy Prophet (PBUH) or our common cause in support of those acting against illegal prostitution.
Thank you for your continued support and encouragement. You are the type of female who can lead us out of our collective nightmare, because I sincerely believe that intelligent, caring, and competent Muslim women will save us from this abyss. I wish to exclude Bezamir from this group of ladies.

Salim#395:

Please do not throw the baby with the bathwater. There is a tendency at chowk to use one error to destroy the legitimacy of an entire post. Despite the obvious mistake of misidentifying the provincial location of Panipat and Gurgaon, the information provided in post #361 is substantially correct, as far as my knowledge goes.

#428 nauman72 {`` I don’t associate any ill will on your part but there is an intrinsic flaw in the idea of democracy, i.e. the will of the majority. And if the government has to be conducted by a majority then the Muslims of sub-continent had every right to demand a territorially contiguous area where they constituted a majority``}

Nauman Sahib,
Pardon me for interrupting, but you seem to have inadvertently pointed out the underlying problem with Muslims not being able to live with others - especially as a minority. You see, many Muslims, especially in Punjab, believe that majority means ``mob rule,`` with no provision for the rights of minorities, rights of individuals, or basic guarantees of free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, and freedom of assembly. Many Punjabis think that now that Bengalis are gone, it is their own turn to exercise excessive power thanks to this newfound concept called ``democracy.``

In reality, true democracy does not mean ``mob rule.`` In the US and other democratic societies, there are clear-cut guarantees against the tyranny of the majority.

Maybe, we need to educate everyone in Pakistan about this important distinction. Especially since Bezamir and Besharif are joining the good Mullah Fazloo in bringing the ``democratic`` circus show to the streets of Pakistan. Sorry for the interruption, please continue with your interesting discussion. Thanks.

#394 by Kaalchakra:
[Was it possible for Muslims to live peacefully together with the rest of the Indians, like all non-majority other communities, or not? Or, did Islam erect, as you compellingly argued earlier, an impossible barrier to cooperative, non-majority cohabitation with all others (non-Muslims in general and, for some reason, Hindus in Particular?]

Though it looks a bit odd answering questions with other questions but I am also going to ask a few questions after answering your question.

Yes it would’ve been possible for Muslims to live peacefully in India in the same manner that 140 million Muslims live today in India. In fact many millions of Muslims and Indians live peacefully in France, UK, USA and many other developed countries despite their religious, cultural and civilizational differences.

Now its my turn to ask a few questions. Was it possible for Hindus and Muslims to live peacefully together, like all “non-majority” communities, under the British Imperialism forever? Or, did the era of modern nation states, the concept of democracy, self-determination and the “will of the majority” made it impossible to live under a perpetual imperialism, be it of foreign masters or a permanent numerical majority of another religion and a civilization?

I apologize if my questions sound a bit harsh but you’ve questioned the very foundation of our nationhood. I don’t associate any ill will on your part but there is an intrinsic flaw in the idea of democracy, i.e. the will of the majority. And if the government has to be conducted by a majority then the Muslims of sub-continent had every right to demand a territorially contiguous area where they constituted a majority.

A request to bjkumar sahib..........................

“I have said this many times before. Tauheed sahib is an absolute paragon of virture compared to a low-life like you and your `wanna-fuck-but-can`t-fuck` whore - that Versey woman!”

Please, we both are from very different backgrounds.............with absolutely different mindsets.

I can proudly state about me, that my ideology is very clear and positive......
I believe in [[LIVE AND LET LIVE]]]]. I never insulted Indian Gandee and I do not indulge in any kind of Insults for Indians and for India.

You, on the other hand is always demeaning, bigot and extremely abusive for Pakistanis and for Quaid-e-Azam for NO reason at all.

Alright, you can abuse my country, you can abuse Pakistan. May be you feel threatened by Pakistan and see us as your enemies.........You can abuse me as well, if, you want to. I do not care.

But, I have a question from you why are you abusing the vilest abuse possible for your fellow Indian well respected and decent accomplished writer, called Miss Farzana Versey?

Just have a look @ your own abusive words for Our genius , lady Miss Farzana Versey............,

[[[“I have said this many times before. Tauheed sahib is an absolute paragon of virture compared to a low-life like you and your `wanna-fuck-but-can`t-fuck` whore - that Versey woman!]]]

This shows you are not trust worthy. If, you can abuse your own Indian respectable ladies, then what can I expect from you?

NOW , MY last request to you.........

PLEASE, DO NOT CALL ME YOUR [[[[SISTER]]] OR[[SIS]].

BECAUSE, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

AND I DO NOT WISH TO BE THE [[SISTER]] OF A HATEFUL AND BIGOT LIKE YOU.

SORRY.................

#396 Salim Mian

Thanks for your kind words.

#403 Salim Mian

Trust me, I have supported Mirzaais in the past with all the honesty of my heart.
If, you go through some old articles written by Ahmedis, you`ll see my staunch stand for them.
My best firend right from my childhood was Ahmedi, she never ever uttered any sort of disrespect for our Prophet(PBUH).

She strongly believed in Prophet(PBUH) as a last prophet. She never stated that Mirza Ahmed was a Prophet. She told me that Mirza Ahmed was their religious leader only.

I never have had any problem with her or with her family.

I strongly believed that this is the foundation of being Muslim.........[[ You have to believe Prophet Mohd.(PBUH) as the LAST Prophet]].

If, you do not believe that Prophet Mohd(PBUH) was the last Prophet and if, you disrespect prophet Mohd(PBUH), like almost all mirzaais have had been doing on this web site in the most derogatory way possible.

I stood up for my Prophet Mohd(PBUH)..................and got the vilest abuse possible from all chowk mirzaais and their female close friends.

These chowk mirzaais openly posted that they do not believe Prophet Mohd( PBUH) is the last prophet and that Mohd(PBUH) was a false prophet and they called HIM(PBUH) the worst names possible.

How can I call these mirzaais , Muslims? No, my dear friend, I can not.

Yes, I will ALWAYS stand up for their rights as a minority just like anyother minority(including Christians,etc, etc, etc)...................

Sorry, I can not compromise on this issue. I hope you understand my stand. And, I hope we both agree to disagree on this specific issue with clear understanding and with respect and admiration for eachother.

Thanks again for your kind posts for me.

#414 HP {``The Indus civilization provided the first Planned cities to India. While people in UP still cannot figure out how to drain water from ``Dagra``, and take bath in Talaabs- Moenjo dero already had separate baths and sewerage system in place. ``}

HP,
And isn`t it ironic that latter-day Greeks and Arabs like you, Atif2, and Ali_1 ridicule the Dravidians of South India, the likely descendants of the advanced people of Moenjo Daro.

#422 by hamidm2 on April 14, 2007 10:56am PT
Re: # 411
salim mian,
....... in spite of your current attempt at creating a tempest in a lota, jousting with windmills and unnecessarily inflicting bjkumar on the rest of us, you are a good man``}

Hamidum Sahib,
Forget BJ Bhayya and his drug-induced situation, but why are you playing the role of Sancho? :) Miguel de Cervantes would have been proud of you.

#414 HP {``When pigs used to roll in dust in UP``}

HP,
What do you mean by ``used to?`` Just visit Unplugged at anytime and you can observe the pigs, including you, rolling in all kinds of filth. :)

Re: # 411

salim mian,

....... in spite of your current attempt at creating a tempest in a lota, jousting with windmills and unnecessarily inflicting bjkumar on the rest of us, you are a good man and i can see why zeena beti is smitten by your charms :)

HP,

The posters u posted are very impressive.

Does anyone have any input on the refugees from Pakistan to India. How many moved to India and where they are moved to? Why are we not seeing any issues from the migrants to India? Is it because they are spread all over the country?

One of my colleagues grand parents moved from West Punjab to Delhi. He told me they came to India with empty hands and built their lives all over again. I don`t see any bitterness in my colleague about partition and the hardships his grand parents had to go through.

Since we are talking about ethnicities, i have another question.

Once i asked my Pathan room mate about not seeing many Sindhi Pakistani`s in US univ`s. He replied back saying that Sindhi`s do not like to leave their villages and are only good at agriculture. He told me whenever a Sindhi leaves his village on a trip to the city, entire village comes to his house to say bye. His answer was totally different from what i know about Sindhi`s in India. They are very good at business and have business interests all over India. I am interested to know little more about Sindhi`s in Pakistan. Anyone care to share some inputs?