With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective

#686 imransuhail {``...,, how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)
...still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it? ... so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest. ``}

Imran Bhai,

When I stated that ``Kashmir is not our problem,`` I was addressing Mohajirs and requesting that we focus on our issues and not be side-tracked by our traditionally altruistic nature in supporting others who may be oppressed. We need to be free, secure, and confident ourselves BEFORE we can be in a position to help anyone. Also, yes adding more Kashmiris to Pakistan`s population will simply increase the number of our persecutors. We constantly have this 2% and 5% insignificance thrown at us - as if to justify the strangulation, prejudice, lack of hope, and disappointment that we collectively experience in Pakistan.
Also, the government of Indian-held Jammu & Kashmir is democratically elected with Kashmiris (especially Muslims) holding most of the leading offices of that provincial government. The only problem that I perceive is the presence of hundreds of thousands of occupying Indian troops - something that the Indian Kashmiris have in common with their brethren across the LoC. We in Karachi resent and abhor the occupation of anyone`s homes and cities by external forces who happen to be cruel, insensitive, and corrupt due to their own bigotry. So much for ``Mohajirs and non-Mohajirs`` being brothers. Curiously, whenever it suits Punjabis, we Mohajirs are called ``brothers`` and even ``fellow Pakistanis.`` But when the situation changes we become ``HindustaaNRans, Panah Guzeer, and Muttarwas.`` :(

#685 imransuhail {``...if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do? Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?``}

Imran Bhai,

First of all, allow me to correct you in your false assertion that Punjabis are not racists. Please observe the postings here on FP, and even more openly and shamefully expressed on Unplugged, by leading Pakistani Punjabis on Chowk - Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Chacha Buttees, Khamkhwa, Urstruly, and others. While I had heard of hateful terms like ``HindustaaNRA and Panah Guzeer,`` I was not at all familiar with words like ``Muttarwa.`` For some reason, Punjabis love to lump ALL Mohajirs as ``Biharis,`` as if that is supposed to be some form of a collective insult. The more you do that, the more we appreciate our Bihari brothers and sisters and our determination to bring ALL Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh back home to Karachi/Hyderabad.

Then, there is some self-styled delusion among Punjabis that they are ``fairer`` than Mohajirs. My response is that it betrays a deep-seated inferiority among Punjabis (many of them are quite swarthy themselves). Finally, in this 21st century, the answer is simply ``who cares?`` Thank you for your several interesting posts and an opportunity to engage in a positive dialogue with you.

#683 imransuhail {``... Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories??? ...a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. They unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Imran Bhai,
Minority groups in Pakistan are going to continue blaming the Punjabis as long as Punjabis pursue their unrealistic goals of hegemony and domination. The oppressed people will continue to detest the Punjabis as long as the Punjabi-dominated Paki army continues to commit violence, murders, rapes, looting, and arson in the homes of Pakistanis who happen to be non-Punjabis. Have you noticed that this Paki Army has NEVER committed the violence and murders at the scale that it has perpetrated its oppression against Bengalis, Mohajirs, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Pathans - now it is quite active in AK, Gilgit, and Baltistan. Imran Bhai, if you get your Punjabi soldiers to behave themselves, the oppressed people will stop hating Punjabis - it is as simple as that. :(

#686 imransuhail {``is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God... while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.``}

Imran Bhai,
I think that you are making a fantastic leap from secularism to atheism and I am not prepared to go that route. One can be religious personally and secular publicly - not because one wants to promote atheism or commit blasphemy. Being religious is a personal matter of choice and faith. Being secular is a necessary compromise for the sake of peace, tranquility, civility, and preservation of human life. We all know what happens when religious people try to force their passion and faith on others - extremist Jews, Crusades, Reformation, Protestant Revolt, Almohades, Almoravides, Kharijites, Qarmatians, Spanish Inquisition, Karbala, Communism, Anti-Mormon violence, Aurangzeb`s rule, persecution of Sikhs by several Mughals, partition of `47, illogical and unfair ruling against Ahmedis, Tally Ban, current suicide bombings all over the world - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, India and elsewhere, and finally RSS/BJP/VHP/SS/BD/SS/JS violence in India.

#682 by Zeena on April 19, 2007 10:41pm PT
{``Salim Mian
I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions. ``}

Zeena, my good friend,
Thank you for being a key supporter and a very polite, dignified, and objective participant. :)

#680 giani_240 {``Salim Mian,
your article and the various interacts remind me of the clarion call given by MAJ about the Muslim and their ``survival`` in Hindu India albeit yours is Mohajirs and survival in Pakistan.
In the past you have expressed that MAJ and partition were wrong. Could it be that you are wrong now? ``}

Giani Sahib,
Of course! I could be wrong about any suggestion - especially one involving separation. After all, the partition of `47 gave us the problems of the past 60 years. That is exactly why I offered several alternatives and cautioned that such decisions have to be made after great thought and even more debate. Thanks for offering your perspective. :)

#679 teshah {``.. I liked Mr. Altaf as he debunked this ‘theory’, but his fuming against feudalism does not make any sense to me. Perhaps by feudalism he meant all Non-Bhayyan sons of the soil who are now the victims of this Matarrua-gardi led by MQM``}

Dear Teshah,
Thank you for your feedback and I can sympathize with and even share your frustration. I think that the MQM fuming against feudalism is sincere. I also believe that most Mohajirs support poor serfs in Punjab and Sindh as these oppressed people toil under the yoke of the cruel chaudhrys, vaderas, and feudal landlords. What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?

Re: # 689

Salim Bhai

You raised the question:

``What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?``

First I would explain what I mean by `Matarrua`.

By it I mean the UP walaa Muslim migrants who invaded the newly established state of Pakistan in the garb of `Mahajareen`, like the Western hordes had invaded newly found America, to grab the properties left by the non-Muslim Pakis who were obliged to migrate to India mainly due to the hatred created against them by the very Matarruas.

As regards the feudals and vaderas of Punjab and Sindh, the fuming of Altaf, I am afraid, is very sinister with the ulterior motive of dividing the Punjabis and Sindhies. How can he be considered sincere in this respect when he is allied with the Wadera-in-Chief who is also a semi-matarrua and is relying on the same feudals and vaderas to perpetuate his rule and dominance of matarruas or what I called `mataura gardi`?

Re:imransuhail
[...is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government....]

Imran, a lot of muslims tend to interpret secularism as ``removing God`` from government. In fact, they think being secular means being an atheist. That is a completely wrong concept. A secular system is simply a system that will not declare any religion or sect as the ``official or state`` religion/sect. The actual legal system in a secular country will most likely be derived from a religious basis anyway, since social norms are based on that. For instance US law is based on judeo-christian values. However, neither judaism nor christianity is a state religion in the US. Declaring one faith or sect as a state religion creates an environment of discrimination for people who do not belong to it, since they become second class citizens.

Even in Islam, you have multiple sects and sub-sects like sunnis, shias, barelvis, deobandis, ismailis etc. These sects and sub-sects have a common value system derived from Islam and also several variances, which are actually strong enough for people to kill each other. A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system.

``Kashmir is not our problem.``

<<<<< how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)



``It already has democratic institutions and self-government.``

<<<<< still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it?



``If for some God-forbidden reason, it becomes a part of Pakistan, Kashmir can become a problem for us. It will put our Indian relatives in a precarious position once again and will only add to the numbers among the “Sons of the Soil” ready for our persecution.``

<<<<< so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a
minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest.

if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do?
Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?

#681 by imransuhail

``I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith).``

``I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue
:)``

That would be interesting to see someone continues this discussion with you. But how are they first going to make some sense out of your two above referenced statements?

Re: # 684

HP,.... you wavent pointed out what is confusing about my statements? i think they are clear and straight forward, in an easy to understand laguage :)

if someone says they arent for unity neither for division it means the will let whatever is happening to keep happening. In two opposeites only one is right. One who does not suppor twhat right is by default supporting whats wrong.

There is not such thing is being neutral. As a matter of fact mohajir leaders have never been neutral in the political history of pakistan.

How can racists claim to be neutral? Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories???


``it is the Pakistani Punjabis who are playing the role of the Serbs this time.`` <<<<<<<<<<<< what do you mean by punjabis?? are you accusing every punjabi? it is the govts which take decissions brother. Welcome to reality, pakistan is a dictatorship where every one dictates his will to his subordinates. Dont mislead the people by pointing towards the benefitors rather than looking at the stupid laws and failed systems of government which cause such injustice.

a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. The unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Salim Mian

I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions.

Wonderful!!!

``Thank you for sharing your sincere comments and ideas with us.`` <<< you are most welcome brother.


``I can understand your devotion to Islam, but believe me, I see Islam as the basis of personal morality for certain individuals (including myself). :)`` <<< here is the difference in approach. Reality is different than the philosophical thinkings like ``i see it this way, you see it the other, we are both right``. When talking about real things the mature discussion leads to one of the two parties admitting that they are wrong and accepting the RIGHT thing. Islam cannot be what u think and what i think both. Islam is islam. If u think involving islam in politics, government, education, judiciary etc is degradory towards it, then that is your opinion. It doesnt mean you are right. Im not even going to say that you are wrong because that generally triggers egoistic defense. I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith). No muslim who has the basic knowlege of islam can truly disagree with this. U can say that u think apples are spicy in taste, but that opinion cannot be correct as it is as established fact that apples are generally sweet, sometiems a little sour or tastless. similarly rational thiking and islamic references like quran and hadith (which i hope u dont reject) define clearly what islam is and what its basic laws and systems are.


``especially when the legal regulations and guidelines have not and cannot change.`` <<< what is the flaw in having a perfect law which doesnt NEED to be chagned in general conditions. When you say they have not changed can cannot change, you are wrong my friend. If you look at islamic history you will clearly see many so called ``stone etched`` laws of islamc being moulded or abandoned due to certain conditions. I gave you an example: In the time of Omer bin khattab (2nd khalif) there was a drought, and food was scarce.... there came a point when people were stealing food from wherever they could to stay alive. The punnishment for stealing was abolished on the grounds that the state will do whatever is in ites power to better the situation and get food for the people, during that time no one can be charged with stealing if they steal food. The state compensated the people whose food was stolen and rectified the situation within no time and re-implemented the law when they had done their reponsibility.


``I am now a firm believer in secularism in the public domain and Islam as a personal choice for me without oppressing others with my own happiness.`` <<< is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.

The believers of the second should understand that God by definition has infinite intellect and infine powers. God exists without time and knows that future and past and present at the same time. Worldly restrictions do not apply to him because he is God. Isnt it then just wishfull thinking to think that humand can make laws better than God`s laws?

I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue :)