With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective

re: Salim_Chauhan #718

The discussion about Karnal opens a new vista in this debate. The province of UP didn`t exist before 1902. A lot of migrants poured into Pakistan from this state in late 40s and early 50s. But there were also people from Gujrat-Kathiawar, Ajmer, Kerala, Bihar, Hyderabad and Bombay who migrated to Pakistan in late 1950s.

Salim, would you be kind enough to define what you precisely mean by a ``Mohajir``? Is this a linguistic identity or a geographic one? Is it an eternal identity or an ephemeral one?

Re: # 722

``Salim, would you be kind enough to define what you precisely mean by a ``Mohajir``? Is this a linguistic identity or a geographic one? Is it an eternal identity or an ephemeral one?``

A very important question indeed but I find no reply to it by Salim.

Will Salim or any MQM man please enlighten us in this respect?

re: Salim_Chauhan

A couple of days ago you stooped to the level of comparing me with a Roman soldier without clothes :)) Now that was personal attacks and character assassination.

I write these lines in the hope that the person reading them is capable of engaging in a mature discussion without getting defensive or resorting to racist remarks :)

{``Karnal was in Punjab province at the time of the 1947 partition. It is now in Haryana``}

Salim,

Liaqat wasn`t born in 1947 and Karnal only became part of Punjab in 1902. Before that it was part of the North Western Provinces of Agra & Oudh. The Sikh empire ended at river Sutlej so even Delhi (and Patiala) was part of North Western Provinces. The same North Western Province of Agra and Oudh was named UP in 1902.

Since Liaqat was born in 1896, he was not a Punjabi by domicile. Nor was he Punjabi by descent.

His father Rustam Ali Khan was landlord who lands were spread across UP and part of east Punjab. Liaqat started his political career in 1926 in the UP Legislative Council. All his life he contested elections from UP. Even in the epoch-making 1945 elections, Liaqat won from Meerut (which is in UP).

#717 HisExcellency {``Instead of recognizing facts, the author pursued his agenda of distancing Mohajirs from this era. Even silly statements were made. For example, the author informed us that Liaqat Ali Khan was Punjabi. (He was actually born at Karnal in UP).

Your Excellency,
Karnal was in Punjab province at the time of the 1947 partition. It is now in Haryana. Just this one gross mistake on your part is a clear indication of your twisting of geographical, historical, and sociological facts that you have misrepresented to further your ethnic, racist, and bigoted agenda.

If you are caught making such an outlandish representation, is there any point in responding to the rest of your nonsense? Your attempt to classify me as an Indian Hindu or a post `71 Mohajir is merely an admission that your arguments have failed and now you are engaging in character and personal assassination to cause mischief. I categorically declare that I am NOT a Hindu, or an Indian, but a Mohajir from Karachi with a diverse ancestry consisting of Rajput, Iranian, and Turkish grandparents.

Here is proof that Karnal is NOT in UP:


``Karnal is one of Historical Districts of Haryana. It is also known as a city of `Daanveer Karn`. It is known all over the world for production of Rice, Wheat and Milk. It is also known for agriculture research Institutions like NDRI, CSSRI, Wheat Research Directorate, National Bureau of Animal Genetics Resources, Sugarcane Breeding Institute etc.

LOCATION
Karnal is important city on Delhi Ambala Rail Line & Sher Shah Suri Marg (G.T.Road), connected with all important places in the country. It is 123 Kilometer from Delhi & 130 Kilometer from Chandigarh.

Karnal District lies on the western Bank of river Yamuna which once flows about 11 Kilometer. to the east forming eastern boundary of the district. The river Yamuna separates Haryana from Utter Pardesh. The Karnal Distt. including Panipat lies between 29`09`50`` and 29`50` North latitude and 76 31` 15`` and 77 12`45`` East longitude, its height from sea level is between 235 and 252 meters. The Karnal Distt. is surrounded by Kurukshetra District on its north-west, jind & Kaithal Distt. on its west, Panipat Distt. on its south and Utter Pradesh on east.``

Karnal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses of Karnal see Karnal (disambiguation).
Karnal, Haryana, India
Karnal
Coordinates: 29.42° N 77.02° E
Time zone IST (UTC+5:30)
District(s) Karnal
Coordinates: 29.42° N 77.02° E
Karnal pronunciation (help·info) (Hindi: करनाल) is the headquarters of Karnal District, Haryana, India. Karnal is said to have been founded by the Kauravas at around the time of the Mahabharata epic for the king Karna, a key figure in the epic tale. It is 123 km from Delhi on the National Highway NH-1 (also called the GT Road) and 126 km from Chandigarh. Karnal is known for the manufacture of shoes, the production of basmati rice and for its many agricultural research institutions.
...
Geography
Karnal is known for its lush greenery. It is roughly equidistant from New Delhi and Chandigarh and lies not only on the NH-1 road but also on the Delhi to Ambala railway line. The city is divided into several sectors, colonies and mohallas. Due to its geographical location several group housing companies like Sahara, Narsi Village, Palm Residency and Ansal Royale have built new luxury apartments and villas in the city.

The views expressed by Salim Chauhan in this article represent a sociopath mindset that justifies its self-imposed isolation by resorting to perverted facts and historical revisionism.

The author asserted that Mohajirs face bloodshed, massacre and oppression at the hands of Punjabis. Yet he failed to provide historical or contemporary evidence of these massacres ever been taken place.

The author also failed to recognize that Mohajirs dominated the country`s bureaucracy during its first decade and therefore must share responsibility for any deeds (or misdeeds) committed during the formative years (1947-71).

Instead of recognizing facts, the author pursued his agenda of distancing Mohajirs from this era. Even silly statements were made. For example, the author informed us that Liaqat Ali Khan was Punjabi. (He was actually born at Karnal in UP).

The author also asserted that since most of the major players in 1971 crisis were non-Mohajirs, therefore Mohajirs must have been ``uninvolved`` in this episode. But what about the thousands of Mohajir bureaucrats who administered East Pakistan and several federal ministries? Could the military government headed by Yahya Khan function without the support of these civil servants? And what was the agenda behind singling out Punjabis when at least two of the major players (A.A.K.Niazi and Z.A.Bhutto) were non-Punjabis? Is it perhaps because the author is extremely prejudiced against Punjabis? Or is it because he is an Indian Hindu with limited knowledge posing as a Mohajir?

There were ofcourse Mohajir players in this crisis. General Rahimuddin, born at Kaimganj in UP, presided over the special court that tried Mujib for sedition in Faisalabad. The honorable general delivered a death sentence to Mujib, which was never carried out by Bhutto. So much for Mohajir neutrality :)

Historical revisionism was in full gear when the author asserted that Urdu tehzeeb was superior to Punjabi tehzeeb. Punjabi literature actually emerged 3 centuries before Urdu literature and ventured into social commentary much before Ghalib, Mir and Akbar Allahabadi`s era.

The funniest part of the author`s commentary was that he did not mention the post-1971 era!!! All his arguments and assertions related to the East Pakistan crisis and role of razakars.

The author skirted a discussion of APMSO, Sohrab Goth riots, Operation Cleanup, 1990 elections, the MQM split, Afaq Ahmed, MQM boycott of 1993 elections, bhatta policy of MQM, extra judicial killings, Altaf`s statements against Jinnah, the role of Mohajir general Usmani in Kargil and MQM`s election reversals in 2002.

Who expects a discussion of Mohajir issues to revolve only around 1947 and 1971 ???Perhaps an Indian Hindu. Because these are the only dates that stick in his mind. The first date represents an emotional trauma. The second represents the only military victory that a Hindu army has achieved during the last 4 centuries.

The limited nature of his arguments reinforces doubts about Salim`s identity. He is perhaps an Indian Hindu masquerading as a Mohajir, or a Mohajir who migrated from Pakistan back in the 70s :))

Chowk Staff:

Please read interact # 705 by zeemax. He says `` you shit `` .
Kindly remove him from this website as soon as possible to guarantee the integrity of this
website.

Respectfully submitted

number

Re: # 716

You turd,

Zeemax is right. A fool like you accepts posts like #248 without a whimper.
And runs crying & wailing to mommy at the earliest...

Re: # 720

You are mistaken. #248 belongs to sanatani.

#713 Number

(add-on)

However, if you read #706 again, no response has been sought from you. :)

Thank you and enjoy your walk down the garden path! :)

#713 Number

BJ Kumar

#704

Dear Dr. Asadulla,

(Kindly forgive my lack of competence in Urdu)

Iss anjuman mein aap-ko
Aana hai baar-baar
Deewarey-dar ko gaur se
Pehchan lijiye...!

Re: # 706

Dear Mr. bjkumar:

I will respond to your interact after you tell me who you are. It is only fair since you know who
I am. If you do not want the world to know who you are, you may e-mail me:
asadulla@vsnl.com

Respectfully submitted

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

#704 by number,

I know who you are. You`re a mehdiite for someone you call mehdi buried near Kabul or thereabouts ... you shit ..

Re: # 705

I will respond to your interact after you tell me who you are. It is only fair since you know
who I am. If you do not want to tell the world who you are, you can tell me via e-mail:
asadulla@vsnl.com

#702, Dear Dr. Asadulla Sahib,
I think that more and more people are associating the word ``ISLAMIST`` with those who want to redefine everything in terms of their perception of ``ISLAM.`` Especially, it refers to people who want ``ISLAM,`` as defined by them, to govern everything including government, laws, economics, entertainment, dress, customs, marriage, behavior, education, and even sports. These people tend to be very vocal and consider force, including violence, as legitimate means to attain their goals. I consider it to be a negative word, because it uses a positive term such as ISLAM to mutilate it into a justification for evil. :(

Re: # 703

Dear Mr. Chauhan:

Thanks for telling me what ISLAMIST is. I am a muslim and not an ISLAMIST.

Regards,

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

Salim Mian


For your big SUCCESS on front page.

Will look forward for another article by you on front page.

Take care

As we conclude this forum, I want to thank ALL the participants for their excellent feedback, interesting viewpoints, and useful suggestions. Also, I enjoyed hosting this dialogue and want to express my gratitude and surprise at the mostly polite, civil, and thoughtful exchange. Khuda Hafiz, Namastay, and Till we Meet Again. :)

Here is what I find so amazing. Many Pakistani Punjabis want to stress that Mohajirs have never had it so good. Mohajirs dominate Pakistan. Urdu has been ``forced`` upon the rest of the country. Mohajirs should stop complaining, and in fact, return most of what they have ``unfairly`` amassed in Pakistan - including their underserved education and literacy. :)

Mohajirs, OTOH, complain about the unfair quotas that pit rural Sindh against urban Sindh. They stress that no such urban/rural divide exists in Punjab, NWFP, and Baluchistan. Mohajirs make a big deal out of the fact that the Pakistani Army Rangers, mostly Punjabis, were cruel, bloody, insensitive, and very biased in the way they occupied Karachi and Hyderabad. The Punjabis punished the local Pakistanis, mostly Mohajirs, with collective punishments and cruelty reminiscent of the acts of another generation of Punjabi soldiers in East Pakistan.

Maybe the truth lies in the fact that partition was the evil that split up a cohesive Punjab and brought together two distinctly separate people who had no business coming together. :(

#697 by chaudhary on April 20, 2007 1:49pm PT
Re: # 674
{``Mr Chauhan, be thankful to Allah for He gave you the opportunity to prosper in Pakistan. “TAHZEEB” you and your ancestors cherished so much was not even yours. Hindus persecuted Muslims of Bihar and UP for centuries. Muslims were humiliated throughout the history of that area, with the exception of 5 years of Sher Shah Suri’s rule in your part of the country. ``}

Mr. Chaudhary,
I don`t know which history books you have been reading, but I have not read of the humiliation of Muslims at the hands of Hindus in UP and Bihar. From the conquest of Awadh all the way to 1857, Muslims ruled this area and, with some exceptions, had excellent relations with their Hindu neighbors - Wajid Ali Shah and others come to mind. In the 1700s and early 1800s there were some struggles against Mahrattas who invaded from central India. I don`t know what you mean by TEHZEEB not being ours, but then you seem to be bent upon some specific preconceived agenda.

{`Please compare the situation your ancestors lived in India with the position you are holding in Pakistan. You have been dominant part of the Pakistani establishment for the last 60 years. You enjoyed special privileges whether civil or military rule.
Think about how you grab the resources of Pakistan.``}

Once again those who persecute us are adamant on telling us how fortunate we are and how good we should feel. :) Your attitude, along with some other Pakistani Punjabis, is so similar to the Serbs who ran concentration camps in Bosnia, and told western reporters how ``fortunate`` the Muslim inmates were for their superior treatment by the Serbs.

{``Most recent example is 4 New Engineering Universities, three in Karachi and one at Jamshoro. The cost will be about $2.33 billion. Take note of 2.33US$. Pakistan`s Sindh provincial government will provide the land and the Higher Education Commission will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Could you ever dream of having this special treatment in Bihar or UP. Just check Muslim literacy rate in your parent states and think about the misuse of the power entrusted to you by Liaqat Ali Khan. Would you allow interior Sindhis access to these universities? ``}

I am sure that the unfair quotas that pit urban against rural Sindhis will hold sway once again, regardless of how many universities are opened up. We don`t have to dream about education - we believe in it. Don`t forget that the Muslims of UP started the first and most noteworthy private Muslim institution of learning at AlighaRh and yes they allowed many Punjabis to study there. :)

{``Mind it, ``Higher Education Commission`` is a federally funded institution. So much investment for one ethnic group, at the cost of the rest of the people of Pakistan, and you still whine about your rights. ``}

So, we have no problems in Pakistan. Those ``stranded`` in Bangladesh are actually ALL ``Biharis`` from India and they just want to come to Pakistan because Pakistan is the greatest country in the world. ``) Once you vehemently deny Pakistanis, whose only fault is that they are like the Mohajirs of Karachi, you alienate ALL of us and we recognize you for the racist, bigoted, and unfair people that you are. While YOUR cowardly army came back in shame but still alive, thousands of Mohajir ``razakaars`` faced Bengali justice and punishment for the sins of the surrendering Punjabi soldiers. Shame!

##688 ranjit {``A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system. ``}

Ranjit Bhai,
Thank you for your excellent response and saving me from charges of blashpemy and atheism. :) I could not have defended myself any better.

#686 imransuhail {``...,, how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)
...still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it? ... so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest. ``}

Imran Bhai,

When I stated that ``Kashmir is not our problem,`` I was addressing Mohajirs and requesting that we focus on our issues and not be side-tracked by our traditionally altruistic nature in supporting others who may be oppressed. We need to be free, secure, and confident ourselves BEFORE we can be in a position to help anyone. Also, yes adding more Kashmiris to Pakistan`s population will simply increase the number of our persecutors. We constantly have this 2% and 5% insignificance thrown at us - as if to justify the strangulation, prejudice, lack of hope, and disappointment that we collectively experience in Pakistan.
Also, the government of Indian-held Jammu & Kashmir is democratically elected with Kashmiris (especially Muslims) holding most of the leading offices of that provincial government. The only problem that I perceive is the presence of hundreds of thousands of occupying Indian troops - something that the Indian Kashmiris have in common with their brethren across the LoC. We in Karachi resent and abhor the occupation of anyone`s homes and cities by external forces who happen to be cruel, insensitive, and corrupt due to their own bigotry. So much for ``Mohajirs and non-Mohajirs`` being brothers. Curiously, whenever it suits Punjabis, we Mohajirs are called ``brothers`` and even ``fellow Pakistanis.`` But when the situation changes we become ``HindustaaNRans, Panah Guzeer, and Muttarwas.`` :(

#685 imransuhail {``...if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do? Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?``}

Imran Bhai,

First of all, allow me to correct you in your false assertion that Punjabis are not racists. Please observe the postings here on FP, and even more openly and shamefully expressed on Unplugged, by leading Pakistani Punjabis on Chowk - Ali_1, Atif2, Sobia, Ally, Chacha Buttees, Khamkhwa, Urstruly, and others. While I had heard of hateful terms like ``HindustaaNRA and Panah Guzeer,`` I was not at all familiar with words like ``Muttarwa.`` For some reason, Punjabis love to lump ALL Mohajirs as ``Biharis,`` as if that is supposed to be some form of a collective insult. The more you do that, the more we appreciate our Bihari brothers and sisters and our determination to bring ALL Pakistanis ``stranded`` in Bangladesh back home to Karachi/Hyderabad.

Then, there is some self-styled delusion among Punjabis that they are ``fairer`` than Mohajirs. My response is that it betrays a deep-seated inferiority among Punjabis (many of them are quite swarthy themselves). Finally, in this 21st century, the answer is simply ``who cares?`` Thank you for your several interesting posts and an opportunity to engage in a positive dialogue with you.

#683 imransuhail {``... Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories??? ...a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. They unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Imran Bhai,
Minority groups in Pakistan are going to continue blaming the Punjabis as long as Punjabis pursue their unrealistic goals of hegemony and domination. The oppressed people will continue to detest the Punjabis as long as the Punjabi-dominated Paki army continues to commit violence, murders, rapes, looting, and arson in the homes of Pakistanis who happen to be non-Punjabis. Have you noticed that this Paki Army has NEVER committed the violence and murders at the scale that it has perpetrated its oppression against Bengalis, Mohajirs, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Pathans - now it is quite active in AK, Gilgit, and Baltistan. Imran Bhai, if you get your Punjabi soldiers to behave themselves, the oppressed people will stop hating Punjabis - it is as simple as that. :(

#686 imransuhail {``is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God... while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.``}

Imran Bhai,
I think that you are making a fantastic leap from secularism to atheism and I am not prepared to go that route. One can be religious personally and secular publicly - not because one wants to promote atheism or commit blasphemy. Being religious is a personal matter of choice and faith. Being secular is a necessary compromise for the sake of peace, tranquility, civility, and preservation of human life. We all know what happens when religious people try to force their passion and faith on others - extremist Jews, Crusades, Reformation, Protestant Revolt, Almohades, Almoravides, Kharijites, Qarmatians, Spanish Inquisition, Karbala, Communism, Anti-Mormon violence, Aurangzeb`s rule, persecution of Sikhs by several Mughals, partition of `47, illogical and unfair ruling against Ahmedis, Tally Ban, current suicide bombings all over the world - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, India and elsewhere, and finally RSS/BJP/VHP/SS/BD/SS/JS violence in India.

#682 by Zeena on April 19, 2007 10:41pm PT
{``Salim Mian
I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions. ``}

Zeena, my good friend,
Thank you for being a key supporter and a very polite, dignified, and objective participant. :)

#680 giani_240 {``Salim Mian,
your article and the various interacts remind me of the clarion call given by MAJ about the Muslim and their ``survival`` in Hindu India albeit yours is Mohajirs and survival in Pakistan.
In the past you have expressed that MAJ and partition were wrong. Could it be that you are wrong now? ``}

Giani Sahib,
Of course! I could be wrong about any suggestion - especially one involving separation. After all, the partition of `47 gave us the problems of the past 60 years. That is exactly why I offered several alternatives and cautioned that such decisions have to be made after great thought and even more debate. Thanks for offering your perspective. :)

#679 teshah {``.. I liked Mr. Altaf as he debunked this ‘theory’, but his fuming against feudalism does not make any sense to me. Perhaps by feudalism he meant all Non-Bhayyan sons of the soil who are now the victims of this Matarrua-gardi led by MQM``}

Dear Teshah,
Thank you for your feedback and I can sympathize with and even share your frustration. I think that the MQM fuming against feudalism is sincere. I also believe that most Mohajirs support poor serfs in Punjab and Sindh as these oppressed people toil under the yoke of the cruel chaudhrys, vaderas, and feudal landlords. What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?

Re: # 689

Salim Bhai

You raised the question:

``What do you mean be Matarrua-gardi?``

First I would explain what I mean by `Matarrua`.

By it I mean the UP walaa Muslim migrants who invaded the newly established state of Pakistan in the garb of `Mahajareen`, like the Western hordes had invaded newly found America, to grab the properties left by the non-Muslim Pakis who were obliged to migrate to India mainly due to the hatred created against them by the very Matarruas.

As regards the feudals and vaderas of Punjab and Sindh, the fuming of Altaf, I am afraid, is very sinister with the ulterior motive of dividing the Punjabis and Sindhies. How can he be considered sincere in this respect when he is allied with the Wadera-in-Chief who is also a semi-matarrua and is relying on the same feudals and vaderas to perpetuate his rule and dominance of matarruas or what I called `mataura gardi`?

Re:imransuhail
[...is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government....]

Imran, a lot of muslims tend to interpret secularism as ``removing God`` from government. In fact, they think being secular means being an atheist. That is a completely wrong concept. A secular system is simply a system that will not declare any religion or sect as the ``official or state`` religion/sect. The actual legal system in a secular country will most likely be derived from a religious basis anyway, since social norms are based on that. For instance US law is based on judeo-christian values. However, neither judaism nor christianity is a state religion in the US. Declaring one faith or sect as a state religion creates an environment of discrimination for people who do not belong to it, since they become second class citizens.

Even in Islam, you have multiple sects and sub-sects like sunnis, shias, barelvis, deobandis, ismailis etc. These sects and sub-sects have a common value system derived from Islam and also several variances, which are actually strong enough for people to kill each other. A secular system would have a legal sytem derived from that common value system, but would not give any one sect or sub-sect supremacy, so that other sects do not feel like they have a second class status. I think Salim is referring to such a secular system.

``Kashmir is not our problem.``

<<<<< how easily you step all over the past and insult the efforts of past pakistanis to get freedom for thei brothers. And you say mohajirs arent seperatists? :)



``It already has democratic institutions and self-government.``

<<<<< still they are tortured, killed and molested by all means.... speaks volumes against democracy now doesnt it?



``If for some God-forbidden reason, it becomes a part of Pakistan, Kashmir can become a problem for us. It will put our Indian relatives in a precarious position once again and will only add to the numbers among the “Sons of the Soil” ready for our persecution.``

<<<<< so you want to deny them their rights just so that you dont become more of a
minority? and mohajir leaders call this justi? why do you think they will persecute you too? why do you think everyone who is not mohajir wasnts to victimize mohajirs???? sound like a self degrading belief to me. Mohajirs and non-mohajirs are brothers. Unless mohajirs and all other seperatist learn the basic priciple of unity=strength they can kiss the idea of progress and stability good bye and keep living the life of thridworld citizens who the rest of the world uses and abuses for its selfish interest.

if punjabis are so evil, why dont they act all racist and hatefull like mohajirs do?
Why do mohajirs issure anti-punjab statements all the time, while one needs to search hard to find even the slightest racist anti-mohajit coment by punjabi leaders?

is it because mohajirs have nothing better to do that to criticise punjabis for all their problems,

or are punjabis intelligent enough to know that mohajirs arent the root of their problems and hence do not stoop down to being racist?

#681 by imransuhail

``I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith).``

``I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue
:)``

That would be interesting to see someone continues this discussion with you. But how are they first going to make some sense out of your two above referenced statements?

Re: # 684

HP,.... you wavent pointed out what is confusing about my statements? i think they are clear and straight forward, in an easy to understand laguage :)

if someone says they arent for unity neither for division it means the will let whatever is happening to keep happening. In two opposeites only one is right. One who does not suppor twhat right is by default supporting whats wrong.

There is not such thing is being neutral. As a matter of fact mohajir leaders have never been neutral in the political history of pakistan.

How can racists claim to be neutral? Punjabis this punjabis that, how long are mohajir leaders going to use these bedtime stories???


``it is the Pakistani Punjabis who are playing the role of the Serbs this time.`` <<<<<<<<<<<< what do you mean by punjabis?? are you accusing every punjabi? it is the govts which take decissions brother. Welcome to reality, pakistan is a dictatorship where every one dictates his will to his subordinates. Dont mislead the people by pointing towards the benefitors rather than looking at the stupid laws and failed systems of government which cause such injustice.

a friend of mine one said ``the mohajir ideology is very simple. The unconditionally hate punjabis and will always find reasons to justify this hate``.... in some weird way i feel his assesment is somewhat justified

Salim Mian

I am really impressed by the way you keep drum rolling with your dignified interactions.

Wonderful!!!

``Thank you for sharing your sincere comments and ideas with us.`` <<< you are most welcome brother.


``I can understand your devotion to Islam, but believe me, I see Islam as the basis of personal morality for certain individuals (including myself). :)`` <<< here is the difference in approach. Reality is different than the philosophical thinkings like ``i see it this way, you see it the other, we are both right``. When talking about real things the mature discussion leads to one of the two parties admitting that they are wrong and accepting the RIGHT thing. Islam cannot be what u think and what i think both. Islam is islam. If u think involving islam in politics, government, education, judiciary etc is degradory towards it, then that is your opinion. It doesnt mean you are right. Im not even going to say that you are wrong because that generally triggers egoistic defense. I say this brother: Islam is a complete way of life which gets its ideas, belief system, laws etc from the word of God (Quran), authentic sayings of the last prophet (peace be upon him) and ijtehad (the finding of a specific law in cases it doesnt exist in quran and hadith). No muslim who has the basic knowlege of islam can truly disagree with this. U can say that u think apples are spicy in taste, but that opinion cannot be correct as it is as established fact that apples are generally sweet, sometiems a little sour or tastless. similarly rational thiking and islamic references like quran and hadith (which i hope u dont reject) define clearly what islam is and what its basic laws and systems are.


``especially when the legal regulations and guidelines have not and cannot change.`` <<< what is the flaw in having a perfect law which doesnt NEED to be chagned in general conditions. When you say they have not changed can cannot change, you are wrong my friend. If you look at islamic history you will clearly see many so called ``stone etched`` laws of islamc being moulded or abandoned due to certain conditions. I gave you an example: In the time of Omer bin khattab (2nd khalif) there was a drought, and food was scarce.... there came a point when people were stealing food from wherever they could to stay alive. The punnishment for stealing was abolished on the grounds that the state will do whatever is in ites power to better the situation and get food for the people, during that time no one can be charged with stealing if they steal food. The state compensated the people whose food was stolen and rectified the situation within no time and re-implemented the law when they had done their reponsibility.


``I am now a firm believer in secularism in the public domain and Islam as a personal choice for me without oppressing others with my own happiness.`` <<< is it not hypocracy when a muslim, in his private life believes in an infinite God and that this God has sent down a complete system (islam) while in the public domain he supports the concept of removing God from government. I go even further to call it blasphemy on the grounds that anyone who thinks that people can sit together and decide (without God) what laws to make and think these laws will be better than what God has revealed, they are in effect saying one of these things:
1) there is no god
2) human groups can have more intellect than God

The first one means kufr and a believer of this should stop calling himself muslims and boldly accept that he is an athiest.

The believers of the second should understand that God by definition has infinite intellect and infine powers. God exists without time and knows that future and past and present at the same time. Worldly restrictions do not apply to him because he is God. Isnt it then just wishfull thinking to think that humand can make laws better than God`s laws?

I am discussing with you based on pure logic and facts. Would like this discussion to continue :)

Salim Mian,

your article and the various interacts remind me of the clarion call given by MAJ about the Muslim and their ``survival`` in Hindu India albeit yours is Mohajirs and survival in Pakistan.

In the past you have expressed that MAJ and partition were wrong. Could it be that you are wrong now?

giani

#610 by Salim

Sorry dear! Sometimes I feel so frustrated so as to loose my temper. I have seen three generations of Pakies pass by but even today I find this so called citadel of Islam in doldrums. This shows that a nation the identity of which is based purely on politico-ideological bases can never find a stable and peaceful country, watan or des, just as a home to live in peacefully. This reminds me of the stand of Moulana Mahmoodulhassan, Abulkalam , etc., visa vis, the demand of the Muslims of India on the bases of their nationality as Muslims. They were of the view that a nation`s identity is based on its country (wattan) and not vise versa as propounded in the so called Two-Nation Theory.. I liked Mr. Altaf as he debunked this ‘theory’, but his fuming against feudalism does not make any sense to me. Perhaps by feudalism he meant all Non-Bhayyan sons of the soil who are now the victims of this Matarrua-gardi led by MQM. So we are afraid sad days lie ahead for the people of Pakistan who have lost even their national identity as Muslims the day second amendment converting the constitution of Pakistan into a `Takfiri Fatwa` was passed when their claim even to call them Muslims was made questionable, subject to an insulting `Halaf-Nama` to become `Halfi Muslims`.

#674, His Excellency, {``This explains the Hindustoora jeers :) The underdeveloped tehzeeb of 2% of population didn`t find too many takers amongst the 98% population with richer cultures. ``}

Your Excellency,
If it had we would not have honor killings, karo kari, gang rapes, hudood ordinance, Tally Bans, and suicide bombings as the dominant Paki culture. :)

{``Yes and no. Bengalis (54%) outnumbered Punjabis (27-30%) in population. But Punjab was larger in area (22% vs 15%) ``}

So what, Baluchistan is by far the largest in area - much larger than even Punjab. :)

You are all over the map, Sir. I am sorry but you are bent upon twisting history, facts, and issues just to malign the victims and present the oppressors as the ones who have suffered. Here are some concerns I have with your rebuttal:

How could 2% of the Pakistani population impose their language on the remaining 98%?

How could Mohajirs in Pakistan and Urdu-speaking Muslims in India impose Urdu as the lingua franca of India and the language of Bollywood?

How could Mohajirs have been the rulers of Pakistan in the first decade after partition, when Liaquat Ali Khan, Ghulam Mohammad, Chaudhry Mohammed Ali, and Feroz Khan Noon, were all Punjabis and the others, Nazimuddin and Mohammad Ali Bogra were Bengalis - not one Mohajir among the early rulers of Pakistan. Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Bhutto, Zia, Bezamir I, Besharif I, Bezamir II, Besharif II were also not Mohajir. Musharraf is the first Mohajir ruler of Pakistan.

Your Excellency, you are taking a very jingoistic ``my side is always right`` attitude. Your excuses regarding the Geneva Convention, Mohajirs taking over Pakistan, Mujib not winning elections, Bhutto being given a mandate by West Pakistan, the political leanings of Wali Khan and the NAP, are all deliberate attempts by you to cloud the main issue - the unrelenting selfishness of Punjabis to dominate Pakistan and suppress all dissent and opposition.

number #673 {``Dear Salim Chauhan Sahib:

Assalamu alaikum o rahmathullahi o barakathahu:

I am assuming that you are a muslim. ... Let me congratulate you on the fine article and let
me tell you that I agree with every word of the article. I find something unique about you.
You have responded to almost every interactor. Great work.

... I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do something to brighten the future, like re-unification. ``}


Dr. Asahdulla Sahib,
Thank you for your kind comments and for joining in this discussion about Mohajirs` past and future. Alhamdolillah, yes I am fortunate to be a Muslim - but not an Islamist. I advocate religion on a personal basis (or the absence of religion on a personal basis). I do not think that religion should be demeaned by making it the overseer of commerce, industry, politics, or even education.

I tried to respond to each post addressed to me and some mean-spirited detractors on Unplugged have accused me of ``hogging`` the forum. I think that if someone takes the time to read my article, offer some feedback, pose some questions, or even disagree with my perspectives, I have an obligation to respond as politely and sincerely as possible.

As for reunification, I have my own positive views, but for it to become a real solution for BOTH countries, an absence of jingoism and a presence of mature thinking with a sprinkling of common sense are prerequisites. I don`t think that either Indians or Pakistanis have yet attained that level of advanced thought. :)

number #673 {``Dear Salim Chauhan Sahib:

Assalamu alaikum o rahmathullahi o barakathahu:

I am assuming that you are a muslim. ... Let me congratulate you on the fine article and let
me tell you that I agree with every word of the article. I find something unique about you.
You have responded to almost every interactor. Great work.

... I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do something to brighten the future, like re-unification. ``}


Dr. Asahdulla Sahib,
Thank you for your kind comments and for joining in this discussion about Mohajirs` past and future. Alhamdolillah, yes I am fortunate to be a Muslim - but not an Islamist. I advocate religion on a personal basis (or the absence of religion on a personal basis). I do not think that religion should be demeaned by making it the overseer of commerce, industry, politics, or even education.

I tried to respond to each post addressed to me and some mean-spirited detractors on Unplugged have accused me of ``hogging`` the forum. I think that if someone takes the time to read my article, offer some feedback, pose some questions, or even disagree with my perspectives, I have an obligation to respond as politely and sincerely as possible.

As for reunification, I have my own positive views, but for it to become a real solution for BOTH countries, an absence of jingoism and a presence of mature thinking with a sprinkling of common sense are prerequisites. I don`t think that either Indians or Pakistanis have yet attained that level of advanced thought. :)

Re: # 676

Dear Mr. Chauhan:

I am not sure if this interact will be published since you have concluded this forum.
Please ignore my ignorance and tell me what is an ISLAMIST.

I hope and pray that soon our three countries will be reunified and we will live a decent human
life (Aameen)

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

#673 by number on April 19, 2007 11:55am PT

Dear Syed Asadulla Sahib:

You are making statements that contradict each other.

You see, no digging - no benefits!

Digging in the past is what this web-site is all about. What good are we going to get from it? What is done can not be undone, but there are lessons to be learnt and if you do not learn them, those lessons will have to be relearnt in the future anyway - at a higher price.

Why is it so difficult not to figure things out based on common sense? Because this is a gathering of ``intellectuals`` - chowk style! And those who have suspended such common sense (e.g., mian Yasser) are the aspiring leaders of your land!

[I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do something to brighten the future, like re-unification.]

Other than Mr. Chauhan, you are the only other interactor who has even suggested this idea. (Perhaps the two of you are one and the same?) :)

There will never be any reunification because the underlying current of suspicion and exclusivity remains, it has strengthened over time and what was one land has become two different people who are headed in two different directions. One of those two is headed downhill - I need not tell you which:

...like a snowstorm heading for hell!

Respectfully submitted.

BJ Kumar

#667 Salim_Chauhan

{``this some subtle desire of yours to compare me with dead villains- I hope that you don`t detest e that much.``}

Dead villains is a Mohajir expression. I prefer the less subjective description i.e. ``Pitiable sociopaths``. They are sociopaths because their megalomania and insecurities render them incapable of social integration. With your racist tirades, you weren`t expecting me to compare you with Mandela, were you? :)

{``the bulk of this country was comprised of Bengalis and NOT Punjabis``}

Yes and no. Bengalis (54%) outnumbered Punjabis (27-30%) in population. But Punjab was larger in area (22% vs 15%) and constituted larger chunk of GDP. More importantly, Punjabis were 65% of West Pakistani population. If your Mohajir ancestors wanted to keep one language for both wings, they should`ve picked either Bengali (or Arabic or English). If they wanted two languages for the two wings, they should`ve picked Bengali and Punjabi. But the Mohajir elite picked a language spoken by only 2% of the population. They kept the reins of government in their own hands and shunted non-Urdu speaking people out of the echelons of power for more than a decade.

Mohajir apologists blame Jinnah for the language riots. Never mind that Jinnah died just 15 months after creating Pakistan. The Mohajir-dominated bureaucracy ruled Pakistan for another 11 years until Ayub`s military coup. They had ample time to address the language issue.

{``If we Mohajirs had our way, we would have ``forced`` some TEHZEEB into you instead of Urdu``}

This explains the Hindustoora jeers :) The underdeveloped tehzeeb of 2% of population didn`t find too many takers amongst the 98% population with richer cultures.

{``So now the Mohajirs took over Pakistan, its businesses, its institutions, and then looted, killed, murdered, raped, and tortured poor hapless Sikhs and Hindus - driving out the surviving ones into India?``}

Correction. Your Mohajir ancestors took over Pakistan, its business and its institutions after the Punjabi Mohajirs had suffered at the hands of Sikhs and Hindus.

{``We all know that the terrible suffering, slaughter, rape, and abduction were perpetrated on the Sikhs and Hindus of West Punjab by Muslim Punjabis. So, who now is rewriting history to suit one`s conclusions?
``}

We also know about the Muslim students paraded nude, raped and burnt by Sikhs in East Punjab... and dozens of trains to Pakistan carrying Muslim families arsoned by Hindus & Sikhs. Isn`t denying the suffering of these Punjabi Muslims an attempt to revise history???

{``since when did Rawalpindi or Islamabad become centralized centers of Pakistan for logistics reasons``}

Rawalpindi was the largest military garrison in British India and headquarters of Northern Command since 1886. It became GHQ of Pakistan Army in 1947 :) There was no point in setting up government in Multan (10 hours away from Pindi by road) and Karachi (2 days away). And besides, the development of Islamabad also helped develop the northern areas. Karachi was already a developed city, overpopulated and vulnerable to attack by sea. Islamabad is safely surrounded by mountains. Moreover, Islamabad was a planned city with clearly marked diplomatic enclaves, government blocks and residential areas. If keeping Pentagon/White House/Capitol Hill close to each other makes sense for the Americans, there is no reason why Pakistanis should not.

{``Very few Mohajirs were fighting anywhere - except serving as officers in the Punjabi-dominated Pak Army. the Ghazi ``Tiger`` Niazi head of the surrendering force was Punjabi.``}

What were these Mohajirs doing in the Punjabi Army in the first place? They weren`t conscripts, were they? :) If Punjabis were 65% of West Pakistani population, and West Pakistan provided bulk of the Army, what is so surprising about finding more Punjabi generals than Mohajirs or Pathans? Now who is spinning demographics to weave conspiracy theories here?

{``...escort them into friendly POW resorts in India``}

Pakistani soldiers were sent by the government and protected by Geneva Convention and military protocols. Sikh soldiers weren`t exactly bonding with their Pakistani counterparts. They were following the established norms which BTW Pakistan Army also followed six years earlier in the 1965 war. Armies follow these norms because they know that soldiers only carry out orders. Military Strategy and policy decisions are made by generals or presidents. Thanks for your intelligent comments :)

{``Bhutto only carried majorities in Punjab and Sindh and in fact NAP...was victorious in NWFP and Baluchistan``}

Correction: NAP only won in Baluchistan. In NWFP, it won only 3 out of 25 national assembly seats. Even in provincial elections, NAP did not carry NWFP since it only won 13 out of 40 seats. Bhutto at least won 1 national assembly seat in NWFP and could rightfully claim to represent West Pakistan with 81 out of 138 seats. What right did Awami League have to speak for Pakistan when they didn`t win a single seat in West Pakistan? Bhutto`s consensus building efforts during the framing of 1973 constitution speak volumes about his ability to take everybody along. Mujib on the other hand had adopted an uncompromising attitude and put up demands he knew West Pakistanis could never accept. That was the purpose of his demands.

{``NAP allied with Awami League``}

Salim mian, Mohajir News Network is not giving you fair and balanced khabrain :) NAP never allied with Awami League before or after the elections. Wali Khan just met Mujib on March 23rd, 1971 along with politicians from other parties to offer their token support in forming a govt. He said he was doing this only to avert a military operation. The offer was too late and half-hearted. Try reading history for a change, because writing it isn`t really working for you :)

{``The rest of your post is full of even more untruths and does not merit a rebuttal``}

I can rebut any arguments posed my way without insulting my interlocuters or accusing them of being anti-Punjabi, et al.

Re: # 674
Mr Chauhan, be thankful to Allah for He gave you the opportunity to prosper in Pakistan. “TAHZEEB” you and your ancestors cherished so much was not even yours. Hindus persecuted Muslims of Bihar and UP for centuries. Muslims were humiliated throughout the history of that area, with the exception of 5 years of Sher Shah Suri’s rule in your part of the country.

Please compare the situation your ancestors lived in India with the position you are holding in Pakistan. You have been dominant part of the Pakistani establishment for the last 60 years. You enjoyed special privileges whether civil or military rule.
Think about how you grab the resources of Pakistan.

Most recent example is 4 New Engineering Universities, three in Karachi and one at Jamshoro. The cost will be about $2.33 billion. Take note of 2.33US$. Pakistan`s Sindh provincial government will provide the land and the Higher Education Commission will bear the cost of the infrastructure. Could you ever dream of having this special treatment in Bihar or UP. Just check Muslim literacy rate in your parent states and think about the misuse of the power entrusted to you by Liaqat Ali Khan. Would you allow interior Sindhis access to these universities?

Mind it, ``Higher Education Commission`` is a federally funded institution. So much investment for one ethnic group, at the cost of the rest of the people of Pakistan, and you still whine about your rights.

Dear Salim Chauhan Sahib:

Assalamu alaikum o rahmathullahi o barakathahu:

I am assuming that you are a muslim. Please forgive me if I am wrong. Everybody knows
who I am. I will interact only with those who have their real names on chowk. It is only fair.
Please forgive me for being late in interacting with you. I was waiting to read all the interacts
before interacting, but it will be too late. Let me congratulate you on the fine article and let
me tell you that I agree with every word of the article. I find something unique about you.
You have responded to almost every interactor. Great work.

How long are we going to dig in the past? What good are we going to get from it? What is
done can not be undone. I am wondering if it is possible to forget about the past and do
something to brighten the future, like re-unification.

Respectfully submitted.

Syed Asadulla, Ph.D

#665 by klpd on April 18, 2007 3:44pm PT
{`Re: # 664
hs - salim is a divider - no concept of united we stand - salim wants to turn pakistan into another yugoslavia - is that what the mohajirs stand for?``}

Dear klpd:

Good analogy, except that it is the Pakistani Punjabis who are playing the role of the Serbs this time. I am interested in neither dividing nor uniting - I just seek fairness, justice, compassion, and peace. I hope that most Mohajirs would share those goals. :)

imransuhail #668 {``Its easy to blame others and keep following the agendas of the ``outsiders`` to keep us divided, but if one truly understands what is causing all the problems then it is a matter of common sense to know the solution or that there is a solution. ``}

Imran Sahib,
Thank you for sharing your sincere comments and ideas with us. I can understand your devotion to Islam, but believe me, I see Islam as the basis of personal morality for certain individuals (including myself). :) I think that degrading Islam to the level of government, courts, education, divorce, marriage, inheritance, and public rules is both unfair and very restrictive - especially when the legal regulations and guidelines have not and cannot change. I am now a firm believer in secularism in the public domain and Islam as a personal choice for me without oppressing others with my own happiness. Thanks. :)

You said: ``We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution`` <<< why? does singapore contain a perfect society? has sangapore solved the poblems of the people or divided society them into 2 factions: extremely backward and extremely progressive???

Comming towards your extremist/moderate opinions, you make it sound like there are only 3 kinds of people in pakistan. The islamic extremists (whose freedoms of expression like their clothing and their freedoms of belief arent acceptable to you although you seem to support such democractic concepts), the secular-modernized people, and the mahajirs.

When a non-mqm karachi resident seen mahajirs, he sees the mahajir supporting these notions of racism, anti-islam concepts, etc. I am a (real) mahajir too. My family actually migrated from india unlike many mqm followers in karachi. Still i am enlightened enough to see that the problems we face may be dissimilar to those faced by other elsewhere in pakistan, or areound the world but i understand that these problems are linked as they stem from the same root. Its easy to blame others and keep following the agendas of the ``outsiders`` to keep us divided, but if one truly understands what is causing all the problems then it is a matter of common sense to know the solution or that there is a solution.

The root-of-evil that i point to is the capitalist ideology which is served to the world in different flavors. The europeans got it in the ``secular democracy`` floavor, muslims are getting it in ``moderate islam`` flavor. The ideals and basic concepts remain the same. The same ``freedom of ownership`` is projected behind things like freedom of religion, freeodm of speech and choice of ruler to people who are dumb enough to think that these things arent allowed in other ideologies.

I take the example of islam. The islamic state provided security, welfare, growth, freedom of speech, etc to its citizens regardless of their religious affiliations. Jews prospered in the caliphate when they were looked down upon and persecuted by the catholic europe. Islam gives the conept of a house of elected representatives of the people which advise the ruler and legislate based on evidences and facts rather than the personal likes and dislikes of its members.

So i ask the question, why do we hide behind neutrality and support the flagbearers of capitalism ontly to say that we arent religious extremists? Why cant we learn and teach others about the only stable and progressive system of govt that lasted for 1000 years?

Are we hypocrites when we say ``i testify that there is no God but Allah`` and still keep His revelation and his prophet`s examples out of our life`s affairs???

#663 by HisExcellency on April 18, 2007 12:53pm PT
{``The trouble with Salim`s version of history is that it is ``His Story``. This is the kind of writing that one can associate with Slobodan Milosevic or perhaps Cho Seung-Hui. ``}

Surely you can`t be serious, Your Excellency. Is this some subtle desire of yours to compare me with dead villains - I hope that you don`t detest e that much. So, who now is making extravagant and outlandish comparisons?

{``Mohajirs appear in this story as a savior class, that single handedly created Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis comprised the bulk of this country and bore the brunt of bloody partition. ``}

Once again you are mistaken. At the time of the bloody partition, the bulk of this country was comprised of Bengalis and NOT Punjabis - but you guys changed that within 24 years. So, who now is cooking the books and fudging with the numbers? :(

{``The Urdu language, spoken by 2% of the population, is declared national language of Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis accept this language without protest (unlike the Bengalis) despite being 70% of West Pakistani population. ``}

Will you please leave the poor Urdu language alone? It`s bad enough that you guys constantly butcher this sweet language, but do you have to whine about how bhayyas from UP and Bihar ``forced`` you guys to ditch your own Punjutalk and adopt Urdu as your language. If we Mohajirs had our way, we would have ``forced`` some TEHZEEB into you instead of Urdu. So, who now is manufacturing perceived abuses?

{``Mohajirs next bless this country by taking over its businesses, evacuee property, educational institutions and bureaucracy. Never mind that they refuse to allocate public funds to agriculture, which employs 60% of the workforce and 70% of GDP. ``}

So now the Mohajirs took over Pakistan, its businesses, its institutions, and then looted, killed, murdered, raped, and tortured poor hapless Sikhs and Hindus - driving out the surviving ones into India? Come on, Your Excellency, you know that this is an evil lie and that you are going to have to pay for this malicious act in the hereafter. :( We all know that the terrible suffering, slaughter, rape, and abduction were perpetrated on the Sikhs and Hindus of West Punjab by Muslim Punjabis. So, who now is rewriting history to suit one`s conclusions?

{``All is bliss in Salim`s Pakistan because Mohajirs are running the country from Karachi.
But then suddenly an evil Pathan president decides to move the capital from Karachi to Islamabad, just to suppress Mohajirs. Never mind that in other countries, state and local governments are not located in major cities for logistic reasons. In Mohajir Tales, such common sense actions cannot occur. Everything happens for only one reason... oppression of Mohajirs. ``}

Your Excellency, since when did Rawalpindi or Islamabad become centralized centers of Pakistan for logistics reasons? Please take a look at the map - if the capital had been moved to Multan, I may have agreed with you. So, who now is spinning a yarn?

{``Next in Salim`s epic, Mohajirs use Aladin`s magic lamp and vanish from national scene vanish between 1970 and 1971. Never mind that they are still over-represented in bureaucracy and financial sector of Pakistan. Never mind that they are fighting in the Pakistan army and along side the army as razakars in East Pakistan. ``}

Very few Mohajirs were fighting anywhere - except serving as officers in the Punjabi-dominated Pak Army. Even the Ghazi ``Tiger`` Niazi head of the surrendering force was Punjabi. I have already mentioned the ``razakars`` and their sorry fate in my article. Of course, the razakars did not have compassionate, friendly fellow Punjabi Sikh conquerors like Jagjit Singh Arora to escort them into friendly POW resorts in India. The razakars were tortured, killed in great numbers, and forgotten right there in East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. So, now who is twisting the facts to lump the war criminal cowards of the Paki Army with the razakars, who at least paid for their sins?

{``Mohajir`s reappear after the war. The magic lamp runs out of oil. Now Mohajirs can distance themselves from a war they were very much part of. ``}

Of all the major players in the East Pakistan tragedy - Bhutto, Yahya, Mujib, Tikka Khan, Rao Ferman Ali, Ghazi Tiger Niazi, and Wali Khan, how many were Mohajirs? So, now who is spinning another tale?

{``Another villain enters the scene in this Mohajir bedtime story. A sindhi leader with an overwhelming mandate tries to address the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs by introducing a 20-year Quota system in jobs and educational institutions. Never mind that interior Sindh was poor and underdeveloped. Who cares whether Sindhis (or for that matter any part of Pakistan) live or die? All that matters is that a couple million Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad should get into universities, banks, govt departments and corporations.``}

Another fabrication on your part, Your Excellency. Which ``Sindhi leader with an overwhelming mandate`` are you talking about? Bhutto only carried majorities in Punjab and Sindh and in fact NAP, allied with Awami League in East Pakistan, was victorious in NWFP and Baluchistan. Bhutto was NEVER elected to any office in Pakistan. He used the previous wins in only two provinces to take over Pakistan as a ``democratically`` elected leader. The real winner was Mujib. In 1977, Bhutto rigged the elections and the rest is history when MahaPunju Zia Owl Hag threw a necktie party for the egomaniac. So now, who is stretching the truth until it`s a blatant lie?

The rest of your post is full of even more untruths and does not merit a rebuttal. You make sweeping statements but forget to check the gross errors you build as your foundation. After such an intelligent discussion based mostly on facts and experiences, it is disappointing to read your rhetoric. :(

#661 saharanpur {``Dear Salimbhai
What a refreshing,invigorating article.
Yes I 100% agree that 1947 Partition was biggest blunder committed by UP muslims & Jinnah.
But u shud thank Gandhi/Nehru for allowing the illiterate,impoverished and mainly rural 2 Crore muslims to still remain in UP &India.All elite n educated muslim gladly migrated to the ummah heaven.Just imagine the catastrophe for UP muslims if there entire population had t perforce migrate to Pakistan/bangladesh like HIndus/Sikhs in Punjab/Sind having no links with their ancestral land n graves.`]

Dear Brother Saharanpuri,
I love that name Saharanpur - the city on the Jamuna on the border between undivided Punjab and UP. :)
Thank you for enjoying the article and your feedback. Yes, partition was probably the most stupid act performed by utterly selfish leaders and an even more selfish departing viceroy. If millions upon millions of rural and poor UP wallas, Biharis, and others HAD to migrate to Pakistan, then there probably would have been no Punjabi ``majority`` that some interactors here seem to point out in every other post. :)

re: Salim

{{We should not get involved in this pernicious civil strife}}

Only if Mohajirs want to lose their relevance in present-day Pakistan.

If Mohajirs can`t set aside their prejudices and join hands with ``fun-loving`` PPP liberals, then Mohajirs aren`t really as secular as you think. Genuinely secular parties don`t let history and cultural differences stand in the way of great causes. These petty issues didn`t prevent Jinnah`s AIML from reaching out to Fazle Haq`s KPP and Sikander Hayat`s Union Party in 1940s.

Musharraf, MQM, PPP, ANP and several members of PONM have a natural anti-Mullah alliance. They can only hurt themselves by going their separate ways in the face of a unified Mullah platform.

Re: # 664
hs - salim is a divider - no concept of united we stand - salim wants to turn pakistan into another yugoslavia - is that what the mohajirs stand for?

The trouble with Salim`s version of history is that it is ``His Story``. This is the kind of writing that one can associate with Slobodan Milosevic or perhaps Cho Seung-Hui.

Mohajirs appear in this story as a savior class, that single handedly created Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis comprised the bulk of this country and bore the brunt of bloody partition.

The Urdu language, spoken by 2% of the population, is declared national language of Pakistan. Never mind that Punjabis accept this language without protest (unlike the Bengalis) despite being 70% of West Pakistani population.

Mohajirs next bless this country by taking over its businesses, evacuee property, educational institutions and bureaucracy. Never mind that they refuse to allocate public funds to agriculture, which employs 60% of the workforce and 70% of GDP.

All is bliss in Salim`s Pakistan because Mohajirs are running the country from Karachi.
But then suddenly an evil Pathan president decides to move the capital from Karachi to Islamabad, just to suppress Mohajirs. Never mind that in other countries, state and local governments are not located in major cities for logistic reasons. In Mohajir Tales, such common sense actions cannot occur. Everything happens for only one reason... oppression of Mohajirs.

Next in Salim`s epic, Mohajirs use Aladin`s magic lamp and vanish from national scene vanish between 1970 and 1971. Never mind that they are still over-represented in bureaucracy and financial sector of Pakistan. Never mind that they are fighting in the Pakistan army and along side the army as razakars in East Pakistan.

Mohajir`s reappear after the war. The magic lamp runs out of oil. Now Mohajirs can distance themselves from a war they were very much part of.

Another villain enters the scene in this Mohajir bedtime story. A sindhi leader with an overwhelming mandate tries to address the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs by introducing a 20-year Quota system in jobs and educational institutions. Never mind that interior Sindh was poor and underdeveloped. Who cares whether Sindhis (or for that matter any part of Pakistan) live or die? All that matters is that a couple million Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad should get into universities, banks, govt departments and corporations.

Flash forward ten years. Now the Mohajirs are angry that they have to share Karachi with people from other parts of Pakistan. Never mind that Karachi belonged to Sindhis before Mohajirs moved in 50 years ago. But now it belonged to Mohajirs. And only Mohajirs. So Pathans must pay a price for taking over transport business. How dare a Pathan rickshaw driver kill a Mohajir girl even by accident? Entire Pathan communities must be punished in Sohrab Goth.

The Mohajir epic turns funnier still. Army, intelligence agencies, Punjabis, Chaudhries, Feudals, Bureaucrats, Waderas and Pakistan are now conspiring against Mohajirs. Never mind that Army and intelligence agencies themselves helped Mohajir leadership stand up to Benazir. Never mind that Mohajir leadership has been running Karachi for over 20 years unfettered by Punjabis, Army, Sindhis, waderas, ISI, bureaucrats, chaudhries, et al.

The villains and tragedies in this sob story never change. Baseless allegations are hurled but never proven. Hate is justified but never analyzed. Fortunately, many Mohajirs have grown tired of this fiction. The Qaid-e-Tehreek has been compelled to go ``Muttahida`` instead of ``Mohajir``.

Let`s see whether a generation raised on Mohajir particularism is now capable of graduating to national politics or not.

#486 by Salim_Chauhan

{{Punjab`s brave soldiers have been busy committing that kind of violence in East Pakistan, et al}}

Umm.. there`s a big difference between a national army comprising 50-60% Punjabi soldiers... and a Mohajir political party comprising 100% Mohajir crim