Salim Chauhan April 11, 2007
#17 Posted by zeemax on April 11, 2007 7:25:51 am
Haha Salim .. how come I missed your article? Ok lemme read it and the interacts and I`ll get back.
(Has it something to do with Punjabi Paindoos? In which case it`ll be fun ;-)
(Has it something to do with Punjabi Paindoos? In which case it`ll be fun ;-)
#18 Posted by Ally on April 11, 2007 7:29:29 am
So basically you want to split Pakistan up!
Do you really think our in charge Mohajir Pres and PM will allow that? Its fine that you want to take all the `other` ethnicities `with` you wherever you go in Karachi, but is that dependent on them speaking Urdu?
Here is an article about school kids an language in Pakistan and this is what it says about Urdu speakers and KHI
http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/11/op.htm#2
Language question in education
By Zubeida Mustafa
...........In 1972, language riots took place in Karachi when the “new Sindhis” were unwilling to recognise the right of the people of Sindh to use Sindhi as the language of the government. The alienation that was caused ran deep and has still not been bridged.....
And i truly dont beleive that the millions of Punjabi ppl in Karachi would be safe from people like you who have nothing but utter contempt and hatred for Punjabi ppl. You have shown it many times on this board... Sad thing is you`re not the only one there are many rascist mohajirs like you in Karachi...
Your article paints your people as victims and that you are the only ones that have given something up for Pakistan, but was it not your language, Urdu that is enforced on the rest of Pakistan? The Punjabi people have given up too much for Pakistan, the worst thing we gave up was our language, and that was our stupidist mistake, from the same article cited above.
...The revised White Paper takes note of the hurdles that will be faced in adopting the mother tongue as a medium of instruction in the early years of learning. It concedes that “a number of local languages, including Punjabi and Balochi, have never been formally used as medium of instruction and, therefore, it would take some time and effort to get them on the ground, especially the preparation of textbooks in these languages will take some doing.”....
I dont hate you, or personally want to attack you, but your article needs a balancing, you need to be told other people stories who live in your country. But you and i both live outside of Pakistan, and the fact is that the country and especially the people all along the Indus river are so interlinked socially and economically now, that it would be very, very difficult to split the country up, what do you do with people who are half Punjabi and Sindhi? the country and most of the ethnicities have mixed now, you cant break them apart easily.
The fact is Pakistan is here, breaking it up is just going to create a Yugoslavia style situation. The only real alternative is to make it work, in this is not only our collective benefit, but benefits also our neighbours and the other SAARC countries.
Do you really think our in charge Mohajir Pres and PM will allow that? Its fine that you want to take all the `other` ethnicities `with` you wherever you go in Karachi, but is that dependent on them speaking Urdu?
Here is an article about school kids an language in Pakistan and this is what it says about Urdu speakers and KHI
http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/11/op.htm#2
Language question in education
By Zubeida Mustafa
...........In 1972, language riots took place in Karachi when the “new Sindhis” were unwilling to recognise the right of the people of Sindh to use Sindhi as the language of the government. The alienation that was caused ran deep and has still not been bridged.....
And i truly dont beleive that the millions of Punjabi ppl in Karachi would be safe from people like you who have nothing but utter contempt and hatred for Punjabi ppl. You have shown it many times on this board... Sad thing is you`re not the only one there are many rascist mohajirs like you in Karachi...
Your article paints your people as victims and that you are the only ones that have given something up for Pakistan, but was it not your language, Urdu that is enforced on the rest of Pakistan? The Punjabi people have given up too much for Pakistan, the worst thing we gave up was our language, and that was our stupidist mistake, from the same article cited above.
...The revised White Paper takes note of the hurdles that will be faced in adopting the mother tongue as a medium of instruction in the early years of learning. It concedes that “a number of local languages, including Punjabi and Balochi, have never been formally used as medium of instruction and, therefore, it would take some time and effort to get them on the ground, especially the preparation of textbooks in these languages will take some doing.”....
I dont hate you, or personally want to attack you, but your article needs a balancing, you need to be told other people stories who live in your country. But you and i both live outside of Pakistan, and the fact is that the country and especially the people all along the Indus river are so interlinked socially and economically now, that it would be very, very difficult to split the country up, what do you do with people who are half Punjabi and Sindhi? the country and most of the ethnicities have mixed now, you cant break them apart easily.
The fact is Pakistan is here, breaking it up is just going to create a Yugoslavia style situation. The only real alternative is to make it work, in this is not only our collective benefit, but benefits also our neighbours and the other SAARC countries.
#19 Posted by jang on April 11, 2007 7:34:17 am
i think the article simply ignores realities..it asks good mutton-eating pakis to think like banias, making a ledger of whats in it for us after listing debits and credits. as we know, this ledger can easily be ripped with one emotional apeal to you know what..turki example does not apply because turkish were more of nationalistic as different than religous inescurists, and paradoxically, they were also much more secure in their nationalism having been a nation for a while so it was easy for them to throw away the arabic scipt and other influence. nationalism is a much easier malady to temper with reason.
#20 Posted by arjun2 on April 11, 2007 7:36:12 am
Kashmir is not our problem.
Kashmir is, ironically, the ``root cause`` of your problem...You thought militant Islam was your super weapon that would win you Kashmir from the damn hindooos...despite zeemax`s delusions, that`s no close to reality but what you are seeing is blowback from the islamization of your society...something your government did to produce the jihadis it thought would win it kashmir...
kashmir to pakistan banne se raha, islamabad is closer to becoming kandahar under the taliban...
It`s just like your army...you spent more on your army than on your education in the hopes that it would win you kashmir...when they failed at that, they just took over the paki government....
#21 Posted by Netizen on April 11, 2007 8:04:06 am
Re: # 20
arjun:
``Kashmir is, ironically, the ``root cause`` of your problem...``
well said arjun!
Salim:
the article gives a good perspective of a mohajir, their history, greivances etc. ..but comparing them to turks in the midst of WWII is too far-fetched.
do you think whether pak remains islamic or ultra-islamic (eyes rolling icon here) is dependent on you or urdu speakering mohajirs of karachi. i don`t.
arjun:
``Kashmir is, ironically, the ``root cause`` of your problem...``
well said arjun!
Salim:
the article gives a good perspective of a mohajir, their history, greivances etc. ..but comparing them to turks in the midst of WWII is too far-fetched.
do you think whether pak remains islamic or ultra-islamic (eyes rolling icon here) is dependent on you or urdu speakering mohajirs of karachi. i don`t.
#23 Posted by dost_mittar on April 11, 2007 8:54:25 am
Salim:
``We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution. I mention Singapore, not because it resembles Lahore as someone has written before, but because it symbolizes progress, diversity, confidence, discipline, coexistence, and modernity. The eventual fate of Karachi and Hyderabad can only be decided by their inhabitants – in their inalienable right of self-determination.``
Karachi cannot easily become Singapore. Singapore is prosperous because it is globally competitive; Karachi, on the other hand, is prosperous because it is the commercial hub of Pakistan. Karachi without Pakistan would be like Mumbai without India.
As bulleya pointed out, Muhajirs are doing well for themselves in Pakistan though somewhat tainted as ``bhaiyyas``. The Bihari grievance is genuine but that cannot be turned into a reason for breaking up the country in which the Mohajirs (presuming you are one :)) have a big stake.
ally:
``but was it not your language, Urdu that is enforced on the rest of Pakistan?``
I wouldn`t call it ``enforced``. Enthusiastic embrace by Punjabi Muslims with a contempt for their mother tongue would be a better description.
``We can look to Singapore as a model for our evolution. I mention Singapore, not because it resembles Lahore as someone has written before, but because it symbolizes progress, diversity, confidence, discipline, coexistence, and modernity. The eventual fate of Karachi and Hyderabad can only be decided by their inhabitants – in their inalienable right of self-determination.``
Karachi cannot easily become Singapore. Singapore is prosperous because it is globally competitive; Karachi, on the other hand, is prosperous because it is the commercial hub of Pakistan. Karachi without Pakistan would be like Mumbai without India.
As bulleya pointed out, Muhajirs are doing well for themselves in Pakistan though somewhat tainted as ``bhaiyyas``. The Bihari grievance is genuine but that cannot be turned into a reason for breaking up the country in which the Mohajirs (presuming you are one :)) have a big stake.
ally:
``but was it not your language, Urdu that is enforced on the rest of Pakistan?``
I wouldn`t call it ``enforced``. Enthusiastic embrace by Punjabi Muslims with a contempt for their mother tongue would be a better description.
#24 Posted by zeemax on April 11, 2007 9:15:01 am
Ok Salim I read it.
I`m afraid as #21 says, it is quite far-fetched. #15 by bulleya is right. There has been no injustice to Mohajirs in Pakistan. In Bangladesh yes, but not in Pakistan. It appears that the stranded-Mohajir issue emotionally wears you down so that you overreact and see things which don`t exist.
Me being a `Lucknavi by injection`, I hope you will take my comments as unbiased ;-)
You make two major errors. One is in assuming support of Baluchis and Sindhis. They have nothing in common with Mohajirs, while at-least one thing in common with Punjabis and Pathans that they`re `sons of the soil` as you say. If they`re oppressed, it is not because of the Punjabis, it is because of their own leadership which is the feudal of the feudals.
The other error is in assuming support in Karachi and Hyderabad itself. I don`t know much about Hyderabad, but in Karachi, the support amongst Urdu speaking Mohajirs for Jamaat -e-Islami and MQM is about the same. The only MQM dominated area is about maybe 4-5 square miles starting from Liaquatabad upto the hills of North Nazimabad on one end and the beginning of Super Highway on the other, beyond which the National Awami Party (NAP) Pathans dominate. Rest of Karachi is divided proportionately amongst all major parties.
I agree with bulleya`s following comment, but not with the last sentence:
...However, Altaf Bhai turned to college-level militant politics, instead of towards national politics........MQM is trying hard to become a national party, and might well succeed.......
Altaf Hussain did great damage to the grievances of Mohajirs, whether they may be right or wrong, which is quite irreversible. MQM due to its acts has been branded far and wide within Pakistan`s overwhelmingly nationalistic psyche` as an anti-state political party aligned with Indian interests. And, as you know, no Pakistani (or maybe a son of the soil if you want to call him that) will bear with it. There`s immense scorn for MQM everywhere upcountry.
By your comment in your article ``Whether we stay in Pakistan, go it alone, or confederate with like-minded freedom loving ... , you validate that branding :)
Regards.
I`m afraid as #21 says, it is quite far-fetched. #15 by bulleya is right. There has been no injustice to Mohajirs in Pakistan. In Bangladesh yes, but not in Pakistan. It appears that the stranded-Mohajir issue emotionally wears you down so that you overreact and see things which don`t exist.
Me being a `Lucknavi by injection`, I hope you will take my comments as unbiased ;-)
You make two major errors. One is in assuming support of Baluchis and Sindhis. They have nothing in common with Mohajirs, while at-least one thing in common with Punjabis and Pathans that they`re `sons of the soil` as you say. If they`re oppressed, it is not because of the Punjabis, it is because of their own leadership which is the feudal of the feudals.
The other error is in assuming support in Karachi and Hyderabad itself. I don`t know much about Hyderabad, but in Karachi, the support amongst Urdu speaking Mohajirs for Jamaat -e-Islami and MQM is about the same. The only MQM dominated area is about maybe 4-5 square miles starting from Liaquatabad upto the hills of North Nazimabad on one end and the beginning of Super Highway on the other, beyond which the National Awami Party (NAP) Pathans dominate. Rest of Karachi is divided proportionately amongst all major parties.
I agree with bulleya`s following comment, but not with the last sentence:
...However, Altaf Bhai turned to college-level militant politics, instead of towards national politics........MQM is trying hard to become a national party, and might well succeed.......
Altaf Hussain did great damage to the grievances of Mohajirs, whether they may be right or wrong, which is quite irreversible. MQM due to its acts has been branded far and wide within Pakistan`s overwhelmingly nationalistic psyche` as an anti-state political party aligned with Indian interests. And, as you know, no Pakistani (or maybe a son of the soil if you want to call him that) will bear with it. There`s immense scorn for MQM everywhere upcountry.
By your comment in your article ``Whether we stay in Pakistan, go it alone, or confederate with like-minded freedom loving ... , you validate that branding :)
Regards.
#25 Posted by zeemax on April 11, 2007 9:17:28 am
#23 by dost-mittar
Enthusiastic embrace by Punjabi Muslims with a contempt for their mother tongue would be a better description.
That is well said. Welcome to the boards.
Enthusiastic embrace by Punjabi Muslims with a contempt for their mother tongue would be a better description.
That is well said. Welcome to the boards.
#26 Posted by Ally on April 11, 2007 9:28:30 am
Dost Ji,
And what of the forced shutting down of Punjabi Newspapers and Magazines by the govt. early on in Pakistan`s history? There was no other option but to learn in Urdu, as nothing was taught in Punjabi, i know that in the villages at least learning Urdu is a bane, and is seen as such cause no one speaks in it on a daily basis.
And what of the forced shutting down of Punjabi Newspapers and Magazines by the govt. early on in Pakistan`s history? There was no other option but to learn in Urdu, as nothing was taught in Punjabi, i know that in the villages at least learning Urdu is a bane, and is seen as such cause no one speaks in it on a daily basis.
#27 Posted by Ally on April 11, 2007 9:31:15 am
Dost ji
Is it not true that Punjabi Hindus also took to learning Hindi and writing Punjabi in Devanagri? The only ones really being educated in Punjabi were the Sikh - who are actually a minority within the whole of Punjab (West + East + Haryana)
Is it not true that Punjabi Hindus also took to learning Hindi and writing Punjabi in Devanagri? The only ones really being educated in Punjabi were the Sikh - who are actually a minority within the whole of Punjab (West + East + Haryana)
#28 Posted by HP on April 11, 2007 9:58:42 am
An article should never be a post. An article needs at least some research and some logic to it. Like Salim’s many posts on this site, this article is basically a half baked rant and is not based on facts as they are in Karachi or in Pakistan.
I guess I am going to have to take some time to refute every single line of this article as the whole article is based on fabrications, innuendoes, and is devoid of any supporting evidence.
Here is the problem with Salim. He is a reasonably intelligent person but lacks the knowledge of issues and grabs pieces of information out of the blue from different sources of media and builds his case like Alan Dershavitz does. In the end, people who know reach the conclusion that the whole thing he wrote is a farce though initially some intellectually challenged are impressed.
Before I go into this I will just say that Mohajirs are not a majority in Karachi any more and per 1998 census they are about 48% of the population. About 350,000 move into Karachi every year and thanks heaven, they are not from jaipur or Meerut or Peli Bheet. These people are from Mian chunnu, Bannu, Kohat and Haripur. Karachi’s demographics are changing rapidly and in the next decades or so Karachi will see new leadership which is much grounded in Pakistan and is not inspired by fascism.
Let me start with this ridiculous statement.
“In 1947, much against the advice of real Muslim leaders like Azad, Kidwai, and Zakir Hussain, many of our grandparents placed their trust in one party, one man, and one goal.”
Azad, Kigwai and Zakir were never Muslim leaders in united India. Kidwai might have advised some people but most of his family moved to Pakistan after the partition. His daughter Mohsina Kidwai stayed back because the Congress would give her ticket or some ceremonial position in every Congress government. Some members of Zakir Hussain’s family live in Karachi. That aside, Salim claims that his grand Parents placed trust in Jinnah but when the time came to help Jinnah out in Pakistan, Most of his Grand Parents stayed back. People who suffered the most during the partition were Punjabis who barely knew Jinnah. How many Mohajir died in UP, Rajasthan or Bihar?
He talks about Kashmir but the whole issue became an issue because some in Liaquat cabinet wanted to pick a fight with India. Mohajir brought anti Hinduism to Pakistan. I would take an Anti Indian anytime but mohajirs actually promoted hatred for a section of population which was an important part of the land they came to live after 1947. Mohajir now have nothing to do with Kashmir, they love India but can they say they still don’t hate Hindus?
That is the paradox and dichotomy that mohajir live with. They love India but hate Hindu and this hatred is generational.
Mohajir’s are 7 % of the Pakistani population. Why should they have more jobs and opportunity than the rest? They are under 25% of Sindh population but they hold over 50% jobs in Sindhi. Is that not enough?
The problem with Mohajirs is that they wanna be the Brahmins of Pakistan. Brahmins looked down on them in India and in Pakistan they got an opportunity to act like Brahmin. Like the Brahmin in India, they are now facing the reality. The mohajir are shown the reality and that is the reason for the resentment. A Privileged group is rapidly losing privileges, resents it and start promoting fascism and racism like the whites of South Africa or the Upper caste of India.
I am not done I will write more and challenge every bit of the non sense in this article.
Sub Takht Uchalay jain gay, Sub Taj giray Jain gay.
#29 Posted by Urstruly on April 11, 2007 10:05:09 am
A few Muslim girl activists start asserting themselves in Islamabad, and mice started abandoning Musharaf`s ship. This is quite pathetic. However, it is only a wishful thinking by MQM that they can stand on the sidelines. I think military can and will use them to prove their usefulness. In case dictator and the corrupt ruling class starts losing this battle, the Americans will use MQM as a leverage against Pakistan. The bad choices made by mohajirs in supporting their ``Pir Sahib`` is going to haunt them for quite sometime.
#30 Posted by zeemax on April 11, 2007 10:16:12 am
#28 by HP,
Agreed in its entirety.
Mohajirs have a huge chip on the shoulder because of the perception of a small minority amongst them who believe they suffered because of partition, when actually it was the East Punjabis whose babies were raised on kirpans and their women`s breasts cut off in trains from Amritsar to Lahore. But they integrated, and are now Pakistanis (like myself) and no more `Mohajirs`.
I am not done I will write more and challenge every bit of the non sense in this article.
Sub Takht Uchalay jain gay, Sub Taj giray Jain gay.
I look forward in anticipation to both of above.
Regards.
Agreed in its entirety.
Mohajirs have a huge chip on the shoulder because of the perception of a small minority amongst them who believe they suffered because of partition, when actually it was the East Punjabis whose babies were raised on kirpans and their women`s breasts cut off in trains from Amritsar to Lahore. But they integrated, and are now Pakistanis (like myself) and no more `Mohajirs`.
I am not done I will write more and challenge every bit of the non sense in this article.
Sub Takht Uchalay jain gay, Sub Taj giray Jain gay.
I look forward in anticipation to both of above.
Regards.
#31 Posted by klpd on April 11, 2007 10:50:01 am
Pakistan is KLPD - ask any Pakistani regardless of ethnicity - other than those looto-ing the country blindly
The most delinquent of delinquent nations - as one writer put it
leadership from all ethnicities is guilty - noone is innocent - least of all mohajirs
The most delinquent of delinquent nations - as one writer put it
leadership from all ethnicities is guilty - noone is innocent - least of all mohajirs
#32 Posted by aquaris on April 11, 2007 10:59:58 am
Just to set the record straight.
9.3 Million out of 11.2 Million [ 14.5 Million Total East-West ] displaced during partition were Punjabis.
add 1.2 Million in sind to it and that leaves about .7 Millions who migrated from the minority provinces.
and most of them, during the relativly stable times of AFTER the partition frenzy was over.
ironically, by a Punjabi [ liaqat ali khan ( karnal ) ] with a minority province constituency
, who wanted to create a similiar one in Pakistan and choose, Karachi and hyderabad as his place of choice.
Walton was the largest , Refugee camp , again in punjab.
and since at the time of independence, there was a genereal lack of skilled personal for the administration and the people from Minority provinces, were relatively skilled , because of their clossness to the ruling muslim hierarchy [ Ashrafia ] , they were directly inducted into the Establishment.
thus started an ERA where predominately mohajir and dwindling punjabi establishment, disregared the politically aware Bengalis , forced URDU onto their Rich culture, and created the Wedge, which then led to the ultimate break up in 71.
.. punjabis being more visible , being in the canon fodder ranks, were than the convinient scape goats.
70% of the migrant from minority provinces choose, Karachi and Hyderabad as their destination of choice, the rest 30% , remained elsewhere, and NOW are well integrated into the local population, and one hardly find any difference between then and the local population in the rest of the country.
the massive influx of this 70% into , Karachi and Hyderabad, created a unique situation in
Sind.
it created a Urban-Rural Divide, which was no where else in the rest of the country.
Sindhis accomodated them, with open arms.... and there were no problem till the 70`s
Come 70`s , Pakistan breaks up, an another influx from the East Pakistan takes place, this raises Alarm among the Sindhi population, for the first time they Felt threatened, and feared being given the FATE of American Red-indians in their own Land for the centuries.
Bhutto, a Sindhi realized this alarm, and saw that there was practially NO REPRESENTATION of Sindhis in the Beaurucracy or the establishment, thus introduced the
Dreaded Quota system.
which then Cut deep in the tradtional occupations of Mohajirs, [ ...a Govt Job , preferably grade 17 with two peons ......], and the Mohajir representation which was about 70% before the Quota System , came down to about 35%. a sharp drop.
Also the re-assertion of Sindhi Language, and this group, which had isolated itself from the rest of the country, being holed up, in just two major cities of the country [ Karachi, Hyderabad ], became paranoid.
..then a second , wave of immigration from the then East Pakistan ,started in and around the 80`s, this had the war hardened Al-shams , Al-Badr Cadre, which were disappointed by the JI`s role after the Dacca`s Fall, and a resentment for Pakistan in general for abondoning them, . It is at this time, that Zia out of compulsion to reign in PPP, needed
something to counter it, in Altaf he found a ready and willing Partner, also the international
enviroment at that time, [ Hong Kong issue ] Gave him some willing Patrons.
Altaf cashed this Paronia , or victim hood among this alienated , and living a cocoon like existence, with false preceptions of their over glorified role in the creation of Pakistan, population or Urdu speaking Mohajirs .
Also the massive influx of other ethnicities , especially Afghans into Karachi, augumented their fears, and every thing North of Karachi, became an enemy.
and this mentality of every thing North of Karachi is their enemy is so much ingrained in the doctrinated hatred induced by Altaf for some neferacious designs , it has left them
completely disoriented, and out of Sync with the realities around them.
Unfortunatley the current Scenerio, where its an All Mohajir occupation of Pakistans rulership has not helped, and to undermine this FACT , this Mohajir Intellegensia dugs out
small mole hills of so called preferenential treatment and creates a Mountain of it.
More Later....
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