With or Without Musharraf – A Mohajir’s Perspective
Salim Chauhan April 11, 2007
#81 Posted by bjkumar on April 11, 2007 1:54:55 pm
#79 (add-on)
What a difference a year makes!
Last year this time, this website used to have 100 or so logged-on users.
Now, 1600 plus!
I wonder what has changed!
Better writers, maybe?!!
Or something else?!
reply to this interact
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#82 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 11, 2007 2:03:01 pm
#77 Stuka {``Same goes for Manto. Basically, their articles tend to be more legal briefs (presenting an agenda) rather than acadamic inquiry (present hypothesis, examine all facts, leave conclusion to reader)``}
Stuka,
So, now I am being called a lawyer. After having been called a Bihari, an Ahmedi, a mouse, and worse, I guess I should count my blessings. Sir, what part of ``A Mohajir`s Perspective`` don`t you understand. A perspective is not a research paper on the mating habit of the Potohari Pumpkin. :) It is also not an academic inquiry into the reasons behind the shortcomings of the average Indian male. :)
Stuka,
So, now I am being called a lawyer. After having been called a Bihari, an Ahmedi, a mouse, and worse, I guess I should count my blessings. Sir, what part of ``A Mohajir`s Perspective`` don`t you understand. A perspective is not a research paper on the mating habit of the Potohari Pumpkin. :) It is also not an academic inquiry into the reasons behind the shortcomings of the average Indian male. :)
#83 Posted by klpd on April 11, 2007 2:04:48 pm
Re: # 81
abay tu idhar aa gya bahir nikal kr - wapus jaa uskay hole ke under
abay tu idhar aa gya bahir nikal kr - wapus jaa uskay hole ke under
#84 Posted by aquaris on April 11, 2007 2:06:46 pm
Re: # 70
Also these Jamia Hafsa Students are Not Punjabis...
Hamid Mir has done a detailed investigative report and said that the Hafsa girls are planning to provoke a fight. Most of them are from Hangu, Tank, Bannu, and North/South Waziristan.
and their teachers hope that some of them will go back to their villages and set up madrassas there.
Also these Jamia Hafsa Students are Not Punjabis...
Hamid Mir has done a detailed investigative report and said that the Hafsa girls are planning to provoke a fight. Most of them are from Hangu, Tank, Bannu, and North/South Waziristan.
and their teachers hope that some of them will go back to their villages and set up madrassas there.
#85 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 11, 2007 2:07:39 pm
#80, HP {``According to the 1998 census, the linguistic breakdown of the city was :
Urdu-speaking (Mohajir) 48.52 per cent;
Punjabi13.94 per cent;
Sindhi 7.22 per cent;
Pashto 11.42 per cent;
Balochi 4.34 per cent;
Seraiki 2.11 per cent;
Others 12.4 percent, including Balochi, Kashmiri, Bengali, Gujarati, Memon, and Burmese.
There has been a considerable influx of Pashtun and Punjabi migrants since that census but there is no recent reliable statistical data.``}
HP,
Considering the fact that Memon, Gujarati, Burmese, and even Bengali citizens of Karachi have adopted Urdu as their mother tongue and tend to vote with Mohajirs, would it not be fair to state that Mohajirs still constitute a majority of Karachi. Also, the Pathan population of Karachi tends to be transient in nature - save enough money and return to ``hamara watan.`` Similarly if you discounted the number of Punjabi police in Karachi, the percentage for Punjabis would go down substantially. :)
Urdu-speaking (Mohajir) 48.52 per cent;
Punjabi13.94 per cent;
Sindhi 7.22 per cent;
Pashto 11.42 per cent;
Balochi 4.34 per cent;
Seraiki 2.11 per cent;
Others 12.4 percent, including Balochi, Kashmiri, Bengali, Gujarati, Memon, and Burmese.
There has been a considerable influx of Pashtun and Punjabi migrants since that census but there is no recent reliable statistical data.``}
HP,
Considering the fact that Memon, Gujarati, Burmese, and even Bengali citizens of Karachi have adopted Urdu as their mother tongue and tend to vote with Mohajirs, would it not be fair to state that Mohajirs still constitute a majority of Karachi. Also, the Pathan population of Karachi tends to be transient in nature - save enough money and return to ``hamara watan.`` Similarly if you discounted the number of Punjabi police in Karachi, the percentage for Punjabis would go down substantially. :)
#86 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 11, 2007 2:15:24 pm
#70 rf786 {``Salim Bhai,
Its good to know we still have people with clarity of vision, sound knowledge of history and honest approach to life.
Army inspired (PPP+PML(N)) action against mohajirs of the nineties led to an exodus of many talented families from Karachi/Hyderabad. Hundreds and thousands of educated boys were forced to migrate, these families now feel secure in their current positions and have no desire to return, that leads to the impending problem with Karachi and Pakistan in general and that is loss of valuable human capital.
Then again, the biggest threat today in Pakistan is the talibanization of society which will practice selected prejuidices as we have seen back in Karachi University where JI supported their Punjabi/pukhtoon candidates in hostel elections and preached Islamic credentials when dealing with mohajirs. Nothing has changed as we observe current state of affairs. It is not easy to shoot at Punjabi Hafsa students/clerics whereas Balochi tribal chiefs and other nationalists are expendable. ``}
Radio Frequency Bismillah Dost, :)
Thank you very much for providing some key facts:
1. Brain drain from Karachi & Pakistan thanks to the myopic quota system
2. Stupidity of Mohajirs brainwashed by JI and religious extremism
3. Danger posed to our cause by the Tally Ban mentality
I agree with you on all three - being a member of #1, having relatives suffering from #2, and being afraid for my people for #3. You are right about all three.
Also, I appreciate your kind remarks. The important thing is that we avoid fratricide, internal stife among Mohajirs, and educate our religious extremists about repeating the same mistake of getting on the fatal and suicidal ``Islamic`` train once again. Thanks.
Its good to know we still have people with clarity of vision, sound knowledge of history and honest approach to life.
Army inspired (PPP+PML(N)) action against mohajirs of the nineties led to an exodus of many talented families from Karachi/Hyderabad. Hundreds and thousands of educated boys were forced to migrate, these families now feel secure in their current positions and have no desire to return, that leads to the impending problem with Karachi and Pakistan in general and that is loss of valuable human capital.
Then again, the biggest threat today in Pakistan is the talibanization of society which will practice selected prejuidices as we have seen back in Karachi University where JI supported their Punjabi/pukhtoon candidates in hostel elections and preached Islamic credentials when dealing with mohajirs. Nothing has changed as we observe current state of affairs. It is not easy to shoot at Punjabi Hafsa students/clerics whereas Balochi tribal chiefs and other nationalists are expendable. ``}
Radio Frequency Bismillah Dost, :)
Thank you very much for providing some key facts:
1. Brain drain from Karachi & Pakistan thanks to the myopic quota system
2. Stupidity of Mohajirs brainwashed by JI and religious extremism
3. Danger posed to our cause by the Tally Ban mentality
I agree with you on all three - being a member of #1, having relatives suffering from #2, and being afraid for my people for #3. You are right about all three.
Also, I appreciate your kind remarks. The important thing is that we avoid fratricide, internal stife among Mohajirs, and educate our religious extremists about repeating the same mistake of getting on the fatal and suicidal ``Islamic`` train once again. Thanks.
#87 Posted by stuka on April 11, 2007 2:15:43 pm
``Sir, what part of ``A Mohajir`s Perspective`` don`t you understand. A perspective is not a research paper on the mating habit of the Potohari Pumpkin. :) It is also not an academic inquiry into the reasons behind the shortcomings of the average Indian male. :) ``
I understand all of it. I agree with your definition of perspective as well. My comment was descriptive; not a criticism.
My criticism of the article was in a previous post. Feel free to call me out on that.
I understand all of it. I agree with your definition of perspective as well. My comment was descriptive; not a criticism.
My criticism of the article was in a previous post. Feel free to call me out on that.
#88 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 11, 2007 2:21:01 pm
GT #75 {``I, however, am a bit disturbed by your call for exclusion. For example, suppose a Punjabi believes in all your stated ideals. Would you exclude her? Suppose there is a movement, fighting for your ideals, but is dominated by Punjabis. Would you want Mohajirs not to join the movement? ...In any case, your piece was an interesting read. Thanks. ``}
GT Sahib,
Thank you for the kind comments. I am not talking about exclusion. Instead I am invoking survival of the weak, the abandoned, and the victims. Of course, Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluch, Pathans, Kashmiris, Ahmedis, Shias, Sunnis, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews, and any other people who want to live in peace with Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad have every right to enjoy what our society can easily become - a secular, free, independent, fair, and egalitarian oasis for commerce, progress, peace, and education. We Mohajirs (along with Sindhis, Baluchis, Pathans, Kashmiris, and of course the Bengalis) are the ones who have suffered from the hegemony and exclusivity of the Punjabis.
GT Sahib,
Thank you for the kind comments. I am not talking about exclusion. Instead I am invoking survival of the weak, the abandoned, and the victims. Of course, Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluch, Pathans, Kashmiris, Ahmedis, Shias, Sunnis, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews, and any other people who want to live in peace with Mohajirs in Karachi and Hyderabad have every right to enjoy what our society can easily become - a secular, free, independent, fair, and egalitarian oasis for commerce, progress, peace, and education. We Mohajirs (along with Sindhis, Baluchis, Pathans, Kashmiris, and of course the Bengalis) are the ones who have suffered from the hegemony and exclusivity of the Punjabis.
#89 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 11, 2007 2:31:32 pm
Stuka #73 regarding my statement
{``I mention Singapore, not because it resembles Lahore as someone has written before, but because it symbolizes progress, diversity, confidence, discipline, coexistence, and modernity. `` },
Stuka wrote:
{``HAHAHA. you bastard!! oh well........Pakistan is the future of the Mohajirs. They live there. Be it the victory of the Mullahs or the secularists, the impact will be felt by all regardless of ethnicity or location. ..If either the Allies or the Axis had chosen to invade Turkey and make it a theatre of war, the Turks would not have had a choice. Hence, your Turkish analogy is more apt forsay Indian Muslims or Afghans.``}
Stuka,
You are the beneficiary of some strategic and timely surgery performed by Chowk editors. :) No, I am not talking about your rumored suntan. :)
As for the future of Mohajirs, I would suggest that it is up to the free and independent will of the Mohajirs as expressed within a fair and democratic process that should matter. Many of us have already voted with our feet and have become mohajirs (small m) for a second time.
Having tried to live as part of Pakistan for almost 60 years, it`s time that we consider our options in light of the incessant Pakistani Punjabi thirst for total hegemony and domination. Heck, the Bengalis allowed only 24 years for the stupid experiment to fail. :(
You have a point about Turkey having no options had the Allies or the Axis decided to invade. It`s one thing to be forced to react, it`s another to take a proactive part in a disastrous war. Thanks for your post. :)
{``I mention Singapore, not because it resembles Lahore as someone has written before, but because it symbolizes progress, diversity, confidence, discipline, coexistence, and modernity. `` },
Stuka wrote:
{``HAHAHA. you bastard!! oh well........Pakistan is the future of the Mohajirs. They live there. Be it the victory of the Mullahs or the secularists, the impact will be felt by all regardless of ethnicity or location. ..If either the Allies or the Axis had chosen to invade Turkey and make it a theatre of war, the Turks would not have had a choice. Hence, your Turkish analogy is more apt forsay Indian Muslims or Afghans.``}
Stuka,
You are the beneficiary of some strategic and timely surgery performed by Chowk editors. :) No, I am not talking about your rumored suntan. :)
As for the future of Mohajirs, I would suggest that it is up to the free and independent will of the Mohajirs as expressed within a fair and democratic process that should matter. Many of us have already voted with our feet and have become mohajirs (small m) for a second time.
Having tried to live as part of Pakistan for almost 60 years, it`s time that we consider our options in light of the incessant Pakistani Punjabi thirst for total hegemony and domination. Heck, the Bengalis allowed only 24 years for the stupid experiment to fail. :(
You have a point about Turkey having no options had the Allies or the Axis decided to invade. It`s one thing to be forced to react, it`s another to take a proactive part in a disastrous war. Thanks for your post. :)
#90 Posted by Folio on April 11, 2007 3:04:30 pm
Salimbhai,
It feels good to see a friendly interactor`s article on FP. Congrats! I like ur writing skills, Salimbhai :-).
1. Are u really a Mohajir in Pakistan?? No, u are not!
U are a Mohajir in Turkey. How ur views are current and valid if u are not a permanent resident of Pakistan?
2. As a non-Pakistani I feel sorry 4 this categorisation of migrants from mainland India (as Mohajirs) who went to the promised land of milk and honey i.e Pakistan. I said on someother boards that people in mainland India went to Pakistan Dominion are the elite (Ashrafi types). We can still find Muslim people living in border towns of Rajasthan, Gujarat & Kashmir. A half an hour journey wud have taken them to the promised land but they didnt take that smallest journey of their lives. Even people from East Bengal went to West Pakistan but villagers in border areas didnt move! I think u got the point?
3. ///The eventual fate of Karachi and Hyderabad can only be decided by their inhabitants – in their inalienable right of self-determination. ////
Is it a slogan of MQM or that of Jeay Sindh group? Just curious!
4. We all know that Pakistan is not doing well as a nation. Do u think that Balkanisation is the only solution? Just curious!
5. The 2 slogans of MQM that appeal to me are that they want to abolish feudalism and they continusouly rant against Mullahgardi.
I think MQM is a smaller evil in Pakistan.
Pl share ur thoughts. Congrats, anyway.
P.S: I heard from a student activist of MQM : `Un logon ko (Punjabis) hamari areas mein pitayi hoti hain`. When I asked abt attack on Dr. Sattar in Punjab.
To me this sounds like Shiva Sena language.
It feels good to see a friendly interactor`s article on FP. Congrats! I like ur writing skills, Salimbhai :-).
1. Are u really a Mohajir in Pakistan?? No, u are not!
U are a Mohajir in Turkey. How ur views are current and valid if u are not a permanent resident of Pakistan?
2. As a non-Pakistani I feel sorry 4 this categorisation of migrants from mainland India (as Mohajirs) who went to the promised land of milk and honey i.e Pakistan. I said on someother boards that people in mainland India went to Pakistan Dominion are the elite (Ashrafi types). We can still find Muslim people living in border towns of Rajasthan, Gujarat & Kashmir. A half an hour journey wud have taken them to the promised land but they didnt take that smallest journey of their lives. Even people from East Bengal went to West Pakistan but villagers in border areas didnt move! I think u got the point?
3. ///The eventual fate of Karachi and Hyderabad can only be decided by their inhabitants – in their inalienable right of self-determination. ////
Is it a slogan of MQM or that of Jeay Sindh group? Just curious!
4. We all know that Pakistan is not doing well as a nation. Do u think that Balkanisation is the only solution? Just curious!
5. The 2 slogans of MQM that appeal to me are that they want to abolish feudalism and they continusouly rant against Mullahgardi.
I think MQM is a smaller evil in Pakistan.
Pl share ur thoughts. Congrats, anyway.
P.S: I heard from a student activist of MQM : `Un logon ko (Punjabis) hamari areas mein pitayi hoti hain`. When I asked abt attack on Dr. Sattar in Punjab.
To me this sounds like Shiva Sena language.
#91 Posted by aquaris on April 11, 2007 3:27:01 pm
Also its very REVEALING for the Other enthnicities, espeically the Sindhis about the sentimetns these Mohajirs have about their PATRON Paki Punjoos...
whose Brute Majority, Forced things on Other enthnicites, from this Ganja Jamna`s Cradle of Civlization. on their Cultuire and Society.
#92 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on April 11, 2007 3:33:45 pm
#90, Folio {``Salimbhai,
It feels good to see a friendly interactor`s article on FP. Congrats! I like ur writing skills, Salimbhai :-).
Thank you Folio my brother.
1. Are u really a Mohajir in Pakistan?? No, u are not!
Yes, I am a Mohajir. My grandfather migrated from Jaipur to Karachi.
U are a Mohajir in Turkey. How ur views are current and valid if u are not a permanent resident of Pakistan?
I keep in touch with Pakistan through my parents who live there and of course, this Chowk site. :)
I have explained this issue of mohajir (m - small m) Vs Mohajir (captial M) in an earlier post - I think addressed to Zeena. Basically while anyone going from one place to another becomes a mohajir, we Urdu-speaking descendants of those who migrated from india to Pakistan call ourselves Mohajir - this is to reinforece the derogatory terms such as ``HindustaaNRa`` and ``Panha Guzeer`` used by the Pisser-e-Zameen to torment us and discriminate against us.
2. As a non-Pakistani I feel sorry 4 this categorisation of migrants from mainland India (as Mohajirs) who went to the promised land of milk and honey i.e Pakistan. I said on someother boards that people in mainland India went to Pakistan Dominion are the elite (Ashrafi types). We can still find Muslim people living in border towns of Rajasthan, Gujarat & Kashmir. A half an hour journey wud have taken them to the promised land but they didnt take that smallest journey of their lives. Even people from East Bengal went to West Pakistan but villagers in border areas didnt move! I think u got the point?
You are right, Folio, about the majority of Indian Muslims not wanting to ever go to Pakistan. I always say that Mr. Jinnah and the ML ursurped the Muslims` vote for their rights into a mandate for partition. :(
3. ///The eventual fate of Karachi and Hyderabad can only be decided by their inhabitants – in their inalienable right of self-determination. ////
Is it a slogan of MQM or that of Jeay Sindh group? Just curious!
This is my slogan - invented purely for this article. :) I share this slogan with no one. :)
4. We all know that Pakistan is not doing well as a nation. Do u think that Balkanisation is the only solution? Just curious!
Balkanization, in various forms, is the ultimate destiny for Pakistan, as we know it. But it is not the ONLY solution to Pakistan`s myriad of problems. The process already started in 1971 with the departure of the majority province. I don`t think that it is the ONLY solution, but much depends on the willingness of the majority province to share power, share resources, and allow equality, fairness, and personal accomplishment to prevail. But, based on past experience and the posts of many Pakistani Punjabis here, I am rather pessimistic about Pakistan`s future as a united nation.
5. The 2 slogans of MQM that appeal to me are that they want to abolish feudalism and they continusouly rant against Mullahgardi.
At least that is what they say for now
I think MQM is a smaller evil in Pakistan.
It could be the slavation party for pakistan But too much change is bad for Punjus` digestion.
Pl share ur thoughts. Congrats, anyway.
P.S: I heard from a student activist of MQM : `Un logon ko (Punjabis) hamari areas mein pitayi hoti hain`. When I asked abt attack on Dr. Sattar in Punjab.
To me this sounds like Shiva Sena language.
Again there are crude and lewd inidivuduals in every community, city,. and nation. Let`s concentrate on the good ones that make us happy to interact with. One needs to ignore the religious extremists from ALL faiths. Thanks.
It feels good to see a friendly interactor`s article on FP. Congrats! I like ur writing skills, Salimbhai :-).
Thank you Folio my brother.
1. Are u really a Mohajir in Pakistan?? No, u are not!
Yes, I am a Mohajir. My grandfather migrated from Jaipur to Karachi.
U are a Mohajir in Turkey. How ur views are current and valid if u are not a permanent resident of Pakistan?
I keep in touch with Pakistan through my parents who live there and of course, this Chowk site. :)
I have explained this issue of mohajir (m - small m) Vs Mohajir (captial M) in an earlier post - I think addressed to Zeena. Basically while anyone going from one place to another becomes a mohajir, we Urdu-speaking descendants of those who migrated from india to Pakistan call ourselves Mohajir - this is to reinforece the derogatory terms such as ``HindustaaNRa`` and ``Panha Guzeer`` used by the Pisser-e-Zameen to torment us and discriminate against us.
2. As a non-Pakistani I feel sorry 4 this categorisation of migrants from mainland India (as Mohajirs) who went to the promised land of milk and honey i.e Pakistan. I said on someother boards that people in mainland India went to Pakistan Dominion are the elite (Ashrafi types). We can still find Muslim people living in border towns of Rajasthan, Gujarat & Kashmir. A half an hour journey wud have taken them to the promised land but they didnt take that smallest journey of their lives. Even people from East Bengal went to West Pakistan but villagers in border areas didnt move! I think u got the point?
You are right, Folio, about the majority of Indian Muslims not wanting to ever go to Pakistan. I always say that Mr. Jinnah and the ML ursurped the Muslims` vote for their rights into a mandate for partition. :(
3. ///The eventual fate of Karachi and Hyderabad can only be decided by their inhabitants – in their inalienable right of self-determination. ////
Is it a slogan of MQM or that of Jeay Sindh group? Just curious!
This is my slogan - invented purely for this article. :) I share this slogan with no one. :)
4. We all know that Pakistan is not doing well as a nation. Do u think that Balkanisation is the only solution? Just curious!
Balkanization, in various forms, is the ultimate destiny for Pakistan, as we know it. But it is not the ONLY solution to Pakistan`s myriad of problems. The process already started in 1971 with the departure of the majority province. I don`t think that it is the ONLY solution, but much depends on the willingness of the majority province to share power, share resources, and allow equality, fairness, and personal accomplishment to prevail. But, based on past experience and the posts of many Pakistani Punjabis here, I am rather pessimistic about Pakistan`s future as a united nation.
5. The 2 slogans of MQM that appeal to me are that they want to abolish feudalism and they continusouly rant against Mullahgardi.
At least that is what they say for now
I think MQM is a smaller evil in Pakistan.
It could be the slavation party for pakistan But too much change is bad for Punjus` digestion.
Pl share ur thoughts. Congrats, anyway.
P.S: I heard from a student activist of MQM : `Un logon ko (Punjabis) hamari areas mein pitayi hoti hain`. When I asked abt attack on Dr. Sattar in Punjab.
To me this sounds like Shiva Sena language.
Again there are crude and lewd inidivuduals in every community, city,. and nation. Let`s concentrate on the good ones that make us happy to interact with. One needs to ignore the religious extremists from ALL faiths. Thanks.
#93 Posted by bulleya on April 11, 2007 4:16:41 pm
Salim_Ch: ``Most of the advantages you attribute to Mohajirs are grossly outdated.``
I am afraid you are trying to rely totally on rhetoric than on fact, for your points........Kindly highlight which one of my points is outdated.......They are all based on simple statistics:
The easiest way to tell which community/area is the most prosperous is to look at migration demographics.........Everyone wants to migrate to USA, and hardly any American wants to migrate out of USA to Pakistan or India etc.....Clear indication that life in USA is much better.........
How many people migrate into Karachi from all of Pakistan......hundreds of thousands to millions.......How many Muhajirs do you know who have migrated out......Barring the few businessmen, who did so due to security reasons, there are hardly any Muhajirs who have migrated out........This should give you an idea of who is prosperous and who is not......
I am very pro-Muhajir community.......I think it is easily the most progressive and sophisticated community in Pakistan.........At the same time, I have met very few Muhajirs who really know how tough and bad life is outside Karachi.....While Punjabis may dominate as a community, due to their numbers, the average Punjabi lives in rural villages, with little or no electricity, schools, health etc..........The average Sindhi and and Baluchi and Pathan is even worse off.........How many Muhajirs live in such conditions........As I said earlier, they are the only community, which as a whole, has access to urban facilities in Pakistan......
Also, there is a myth that Muhajirs have been a target of the military.......Muhajirs are, by far, the biggest beneficiaries of the military.........Karachi, alone, gets more of the Pakistan`s military budget than the provinces of Baluchistan and NWFP and Sind combined!!.....As a city it gets many times the military budget than the city that gets the second highest (Rawalpindi)......Nearly the whole Navy budget goes to Karachi.....It has a corps headquarters of the Army........And it has four Air Force bases, including two of the largest three in the country!!.........All this means jobs for the local community......
So, I have always found it a bit odd how the most prosperous community in a country, which political and cultural power that far outweights its percentage of the population, can complain that it is not getting a piece of the pie........
Do the following comparison...........There are actually more Sariaki speakers in Pakistan than Urdu speakers.........The historical roots of Saraiki speakers run very very far back in the area of Pakistan........How much influence do Sariaki speakers have in Pakistan, in comparison to Muhajirs?...........None.........
The Human Development Index of Muhajirs in all important areas: literacy rate, health, economics, women`s literacy, expat population, representation in govt. bueracracy, representation in military, per capita income, cultural influence through langauge etc., participation in media, amount of govt. budget spent on local areas etc. etc. is all so much higher than any other community in Pakistan that it is not even a contest..........
So, let`s not get carried away in rhetoric.......Let`s present facts and figures.......
I am afraid you are trying to rely totally on rhetoric than on fact, for your points........Kindly highlight which one of my points is outdated.......They are all based on simple statistics:
The easiest way to tell which community/area is the most prosperous is to look at migration demographics.........Everyone wants to migrate to USA, and hardly any American wants to migrate out of USA to Pakistan or India etc.....Clear indication that life in USA is much better.........
How many people migrate into Karachi from all of Pakistan......hundreds of thousands to millions.......How many Muhajirs do you know who have migrated out......Barring the few businessmen, who did so due to security reasons, there are hardly any Muhajirs who have migrated out........This should give you an idea of who is prosperous and who is not......
I am very pro-Muhajir community.......I think it is easily the most progressive and sophisticated community in Pakistan.........At the same time, I have met very few Muhajirs who really know how tough and bad life is outside Karachi.....While Punjabis may dominate as a community, due to their numbers, the average Punjabi lives in rural villages, with little or no electricity, schools, health etc..........The average Sindhi and and Baluchi and Pathan is even worse off.........How many Muhajirs live in such conditions........As I said earlier, they are the only community, which as a whole, has access to urban facilities in Pakistan......
Also, there is a myth that Muhajirs have been a target of the military.......Muhajirs are, by far, the biggest beneficiaries of the military.........Karachi, alone, gets more of the Pakistan`s military budget than the provinces of Baluchistan and NWFP and Sind combined!!.....As a city it gets many times the military budget than the city that gets the second highest (Rawalpindi)......Nearly the whole Navy budget goes to Karachi.....It has a corps headquarters of the Army........And it has four Air Force bases, including two of the largest three in the country!!.........All this means jobs for the local community......
So, I have always found it a bit odd how the most prosperous community in a country, which political and cultural power that far outweights its percentage of the population, can complain that it is not getting a piece of the pie........
Do the following comparison...........There are actually more Sariaki speakers in Pakistan than Urdu speakers.........The historical roots of Saraiki speakers run very very far back in the area of Pakistan........How much influence do Sariaki speakers have in Pakistan, in comparison to Muhajirs?...........None.........
The Human Development Index of Muhajirs in all important areas: literacy rate, health, economics, women`s literacy, expat population, representation in govt. bueracracy, representation in military, per capita income, cultural influence through langauge etc., participation in media, amount of govt. budget spent on local areas etc. etc. is all so much higher than any other community in Pakistan that it is not even a contest..........
So, let`s not get carried away in rhetoric.......Let`s present facts and figures.......
#94 Posted by stuka on April 11, 2007 4:40:11 pm
Romair
````Also, there is a myth that Muhajirs have been a target of the military.......Muhajirs are, by far, the biggest beneficiaries of the military.........Karachi, alone, gets more of the Pakistan`s military budget than the provinces of Baluchistan and NWFP and Sind combined!!.....As a city it gets many times the military budget than the city that gets the second highest (Rawalpindi)......Nearly the whole Navy budget goes to Karachi.....It has a corps headquarters of the Army........And it has four Air Force bases, including two of the largest three in the country!!.........All this means jobs for the local community......
``
I agree with you one hundred percent. These stupid Mohajirs do not realize the benefit of the military. I have actually been saying the same thing about Kashmiris as well. India has 400K plus troops in Kashmir. There are numerous Army bases in the valley as well as Air Force bases in Srinangar, Avantipur, Jammu, Udhampur etc. All of these bases emply Kashmiris from the local community for jobs like Lascar, cooks etc. In addition, Indian Army also recruits aggresively in Kashmir. We have the JAK LI (Jammu Kashmir Light Infantry) as a Kashmir based regiment. I am not even counting all the spending the Faujis do in Kashmir. Yet, these ungrateful Kashmiris do not seem to be happy wit the presence of the military and I have no idea why that is the case. I am heartened to see that you guys are having the same issue.
#95 Posted by bulleya on April 11, 2007 4:51:24 pm
I think there is a formula, close to home, that can be applied that may give a hint to which communities in Pakistan are prospering: If we assume Urdu speakers to be around 8 percent of Pakistan, in a society with equal distribution of facilities and income, they should constitute 8 percent of the population on Chowk:
I think if someone does a survey they will discover that the far far higher than 8 percent of the Pakistani population on Chowk is Urdu speaking.......I wouldn`t be surprised if is closer to 50 percent of the population on Chowk from Pakistan, rather than 8 percent.........One can say, with certainity, it is significantly higher than the Sindhi, Baluchi, Kashmiri, and Pathan participants on Chowk.......Maybe higher than all of them combined.........It may even match the total participation of Punjabi speakers on Chowk from Pakistan.......Even though Punjab has 62 percent of the total population of Pakistan.!!
Certainly, not a sign of an exploited community.........
I think Muhajirs are quite unaware of the condition of life in the rest of Pakistan.......And they tend to view things at a community level, i.e. why do Punjabis, as a whole, have more influence than Muhajirs.........They don`t see it at an individual level.........i.e. the average Muhajir have such a higher living standard than any other Pakistani...... Obviously, at a community level 62 percent of a population will have more influence than 8 percent........Even if most of those 62 percent is far poorer than the 8 percent........
In any case, Muhajirs have worked hard and would actually make a good national leadership, if you ask me......To do so, they will have to break out of their ethnically centric defensive politics.......Not because there is anything wrong with being defensive, if one is exploited.........But because, they are, in proportion to their population, more of the exploiters than the exploitees..........I wouldn`t be surprised if the Memon community of Karachi, alone, didn`t own more of Pakistan`s wealth and assets than the rest of Sind and NWFP and Baluchistan combined!..........Barring Chiniotis of Punjab, nearly all Pakistani big business tycoons are from Kararchi (except the odd Nawaz Sharif family etc.).......
The Karachi Stock Exchange is owned mostly by Urdu speakers........The biggest brokerage houses in Pakistan are all in Karachi, owned by Urdu speakers.......heck! Aqeel Deedhi of AKD Secruties, Jehangir Siddiqui of JS Securities and Arif Habib of Arif Habib Securities own more of Pakistan, between the three of them than all the Gul Khans and Greywals and Chandios etc. combined.........And, correct me if I am wrong, these three individuals are all from Karachi..........
Hence, I say power to the people!.......We need to overthrow the Chowk Mgmt., which is all from Karachi........Not to mention, most of the featured writers from Pakistan are either all Urdu speaking or live in Karachi........Hoodbhoy, Beena Sarwar, Shandana Minhas (Punjabi last name, lives in Khi), NHK (ditto), Safwan Shah, Siama Shah.......
What about the two proud Punjabi warriors - Urstruly and hamidm - who can fight a war with their keyboard alone? Why aren`t they featured writers? Is it because they are not from Karachi?.......How come Chowk Mgmt. isn`t equally distributed across ethnic lines?.......Must the rest of us non-Urdu speakers remain slaves!
I think if someone does a survey they will discover that the far far higher than 8 percent of the Pakistani population on Chowk is Urdu speaking.......I wouldn`t be surprised if is closer to 50 percent of the population on Chowk from Pakistan, rather than 8 percent.........One can say, with certainity, it is significantly higher than the Sindhi, Baluchi, Kashmiri, and Pathan participants on Chowk.......Maybe higher than all of them combined.........It may even match the total participation of Punjabi speakers on Chowk from Pakistan.......Even though Punjab has 62 percent of the total population of Pakistan.!!
Certainly, not a sign of an exploited community.........
I think Muhajirs are quite unaware of the condition of life in the rest of Pakistan.......And they tend to view things at a community level, i.e. why do Punjabis, as a whole, have more influence than Muhajirs.........They don`t see it at an individual level.........i.e. the average Muhajir have such a higher living standard than any other Pakistani...... Obviously, at a community level 62 percent of a population will have more influence than 8 percent........Even if most of those 62 percent is far poorer than the 8 percent........
In any case, Muhajirs have worked hard and would actually make a good national leadership, if you ask me......To do so, they will have to break out of their ethnically centric defensive politics.......Not because there is anything wrong with being defensive, if one is exploited.........But because, they are, in proportion to their population, more of the exploiters than the exploitees..........I wouldn`t be surprised if the Memon community of Karachi, alone, didn`t own more of Pakistan`s wealth and assets than the rest of Sind and NWFP and Baluchistan combined!..........Barring Chiniotis of Punjab, nearly all Pakistani big business tycoons are from Kararchi (except the odd Nawaz Sharif family etc.).......
The Karachi Stock Exchange is owned mostly by Urdu speakers........The biggest brokerage houses in Pakistan are all in Karachi, owned by Urdu speakers.......heck! Aqeel Deedhi of AKD Secruties, Jehangir Siddiqui of JS Securities and Arif Habib of Arif Habib Securities own more of Pakistan, between the three of them than all the Gul Khans and Greywals and Chandios etc. combined.........And, correct me if I am wrong, these three individuals are all from Karachi..........
Hence, I say power to the people!.......We need to overthrow the Chowk Mgmt., which is all from Karachi........Not to mention, most of the featured writers from Pakistan are either all Urdu speaking or live in Karachi........Hoodbhoy, Beena Sarwar, Shandana Minhas (Punjabi last name, lives in Khi), NHK (ditto), Safwan Shah, Siama Shah.......
What about the two proud Punjabi warriors - Urstruly and hamidm - who can fight a war with their keyboard alone? Why aren`t they featured writers? Is it because they are not from Karachi?.......How come Chowk Mgmt. isn`t equally distributed across ethnic lines?.......Must the rest of us non-Urdu speakers remain slaves!
#96 Posted by PewResearch on April 11, 2007 4:56:50 pm
Re: # 60 Hasanmahmood & Salim Chauhan
Wow! This article, and #60 is an eye-opener. I never realized that there was so much discontent in Muhajirs.
Wow! This article, and #60 is an eye-opener. I never realized that there was so much discontent in Muhajirs.
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