Talibanization of Pakistan

Re: # 84, Tehsinabbasi saheb,

This post is like a touching commentary on what I had said metaphorically and somewhat sarcastically in #2. Really it is pathetic to find Pak in such a turbulent situation from which only a soul like Gandhi or Lincoln or Lenin can get it through. But than again, and I am sorry to say that, people get leaders who they deserve. If sensible Pakis living in Pak as well as outside (i.e. living in glass houses though, sorry to say) decide to launch a nation wide movement and don`t fear to die come what may, than perhaps we can hope Pak can still survive. This must be taken as a Jihad against Jihadis. When I read many interacts on Chowk I find that many intellectuals have no qualms about the situation prevailing in Pak and they will be even pleased if Pak is engulfed in a warfare between themselves and even distroyed as long as their kind of Islam (i.e. persistent Jihad/wars) is spread further.

Samar

#7 by Urstruly

“In the past 7 years, both, the corrupt ruling class and the Edifiers i.e. Talibans have realized the fact that ``GHee seedhee ungli se nahiN nikle ga``. No matter what happens, but there is only one outcome of the conflict and that outcome is the manifest destiny of Democratic Islamic Emirates of Pakistan. Inshallah. Those who laid down 1 million lives in this cause are now ready to sacrifice whatever it takes.”

I am sad to say that I agree with you – I have the same premonition. A few years ago I was convinced that God had shown us immense mercy when we dodged the bullet. I couldn’t find any justification why America chose Iraq as its next target rather then Pakistan and this despite India’s all out attempt to make this attack happen. Only thing I could think was “jissay Allah rakhey usay kon chukhay”. We had this golden opportunity to mend our evil ways, but alas no one can save us from ourselves.

Externally we have alienated just about everybody that we could alienate. India would take us on nuclear or otherwise, Afghanistan and Iran are mad, forget the West, China is more of an American ally and ready to administer even worse punishment when it comes to religion. Internally every ethnicity, class, sect and region is at loggerheads with one another and poised to pounce at the first sign of trouble. We are going to have a civil war with every one fighting everyone else. I don’t see any firm alliances or battle lines. Basically, we have lost our soul and this war is absolutely essential for us to reclaim some semblance of who we are. Some of us will fight for our religion – others will fight for humanity. But that does not spare us the pain that is coming. So lets get ready to extract as many of our loved ones as we possibly can, before all the borders are sealed.

#61 by zeemax

Hi Buddy:

I have definitely noticed it, absorbed it and would love it, if you would continue.

#77 by Urstruly

“By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish.”

Pray tell me, what religion considers liberty as a virtue? – which is perhaps the most sacred of all American values. Pursuit of happiness could even be regarded as an anti religious concept. Similarly the 4 cardinal virtues justice, courage (fortitude), temperance (self control) and prudence (wisdom) are straight from Aristotle’s Nicomechean Ethics. Christian values of hope, faith and charity do not have a place in the American state, they can only be seen in Christian charities etc. Even in China of today it is still Confucian values which are adhered to by the majority and he was no theologian. John Locke and other philosophers of the enlightenment had rid themselves of the pall of religion and immersed themselves in a Classical education – read the federalist papers, the correspondence between Jefferson and Adams, the discussions don’t revolve around Jesus and his apostles it is more about Plato, Cisero, Cato and Julius Ceasar.

great..pakis are now 4 out of 4...

China jails Muslim separatist

China has sentenced a Muslim activist to life in prison for taking part in ``terrorist activities and plotting to split the country``.

The Chinese court ruled on Thursday that Huseyin Celil was a member of the East Turkestan Liberation Organisation and said that he was guilty of helping Chinese Muslims to travel to Pakistan for military training.

#65 by kaalchakra,

....knowing in the least about the nature and the purpose of the flag he is carrying. :)...

They all carry the flag. They just don`t know what it represents, but they`ll still do it. They will never turn away. None.

That`s Islam. But you know. :-;)

#77 by Urstruly on April 19, 2007 11:27am PT


There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative.


So in an Islamic democracy, the islamic part would force the citizens to take a dump just like mo did in the 7th century and the democracy part would be responsible for the sewage system that carries away the crap...?

#71 by rf786,

If i am not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.

There you go making definitive judgments again. It just makes me believe you don`t even have a hint about what Islam is all about, or what I`m about.

But I don`t think I can help you. If you really want to know, ask Kaalchakra, who isn`t a Muslim. Only then you`ll maybe believe him. Not me.

I don`t care whom you believe. As long as you do.

Rgds.

Re: # 70

``Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy.``

This is an important point. But the realization of this contrdiction was there all the time - whether it is Syed Qutub`s or Syed Moududi`s political philosophy. There has always been a consensus among all Islamists that there is no place for ``liberal or secular democracy`` in an Islamic/Muslim state. Both are mutually exclusive. The concept has always been very clear in the minds of educated Islamists.

There are two components to any democracy -ideological and administrative. The administrative aspect is more like running a municipality - people will need efficient government services no matter what ideology they subscribe to, hence things like healthcare, infrastructure, and various institutions are independent of ideology of the government. But at ideological level, every law that a polity chooses to regulate itself with has its basis in the set of values of that society. This is the social aspect of government. As the definition goes, the laws are merely codification of a value system. A secular society has all laws based on separation of church and state; similarly a society that derives its values from a religion has all social laws based as such. It is absurd to tell a religious society that while their God was correct in giving them individual code of ethics, He could not give them a societal law. Therefore, a society where cousin marriages are considered valid according to the system of values the laws will be made as such. And a society where marriage between two men is a value the marital law will be reflective of that.

But secularism has its contradictions too. By the very nature of it, secularism cannot have a value system as its moral compass. Because all values basically have originated from a religion and in a secular society a case can be made against any value that human beings have worked so hard to establish. So in a secularist society if someone wishes to marry his mother`s corpse, no law can prohibit him. In other words a secular society cannot have a moral compass.

Re: # 40

Zeenajee,

Quite franly we Indians dont give two hoots about Pakistan`s talibanization. A Pakistan, Progressive or Talibanized. We couldn`t care less one way or the other. I was just trying to bring contradictions to your views to one of your compatriots.

PS: We will leave you alone, just dont send those Burqa clad women to our Kashmir .....

Re: # 69

rf786

``My judge is the ONE and only One``

why not two or three or four....(just curious.)
wouldn`t it be just a lonely existence otherwise.

``free omar sheikh``

That will not serve anyone`s purpose, arjun. Omar Sheikh will not be hanged. Zee Ustaad understands that, and being the only ustaad on Chowk is willing to explain that to anyone who cares to learn.

(for that matter rf786 too fully understands that, unless he disappoints us by claiming that he doesn`t :))

rf786

Aap tau naraz ho gaye, even when I did say that unlike Mr. Aamer (what we have seen of him until now), you know your game. One doesn`t have to agree with someone to respect his or her understanding.

Re: # 68

The drug-pusher analogy is correct. However, Islam is not the only drug that military industrial complex pushes. That is the point I was trying to make in my last post. Currently, the Complex is pushing the drug of ``enlightened modernity`` and secularism. As I said, it is a vicious circle people of Pakistan are in. The Islamists (fewer and fewer of them now)think that if the didn`t help military in its ``endeavors`` it will put the scourge of secularism on this country; the modernists on the other hand (more and more of them now) think that the bandwagon of ``enlightened moderation`` will get them to the realization of their wet dreams that that had for the longest time. But in reality, does Miliatry gives a shit to to anyone of these agendas? I think everybody on this forum knows the answer.

Re: # 54

Zee Sahib,

Are you not confusing tribal values with the basic principles of religion? OBL and Mullah Omar both represent the Beduin traditional values, nothing to do with the progressive value system inculcated by Mohammed. Caliph Omar was part o fthe same time capsule as that of the prophet, but these OBL`s, Wahab, Mullah Omer represent obscurantist ideals which are closer to the Ahle Quraish before Islam. Thats my perspective, If iam not wrong, you subscribe to the Taliban style of Islam.

{....I think both Usama and Mullah Umar have modelled themselves after the Caluph Umar Khattab who represented just one facet of Muhammad`s persona.}

Re; #58, rafi-aamer,

You have yourself pointed out that from the beginning there has been a desire to make Islam a part of the political life (e.g. Objectives Resoulution). At the same time, there has been a desire for democarcy. You probably think this is a contradiction. Maybe so. But most of the people of Pakistan are not convinced. They are working out the concept in practice.
Maybe they will come to realize that there is an unsurmountable contradiction in the concept of Islamic democracy. They will have to give up either Islam (in public life) or democracy (As someone said, ``selection, not election``).
Or maybe, they will come up with concepts of `Islamic` and `democracy` such that the 2 can work together.
I am rooting for the 2nd option.