Talibanization of Pakistan

#33 Indian

Yes, I am from Pakistan and I have had been weariong jeans and all the western dresses in Pakistan. I never faced any harrassment. Rather majority of my friends were and are like me......

Pakistan is a free country. If, you wish to wear pants or burqa, wear them. If you don`t do.

I was born and raised in Pakistan..............So,I am not here to get your approval or disapproval.

And also I am not here to prove something.............LOL

These Indians have gone wild in hating Pakistan..........hilarious.......

Zeena - I don`t know which world you live in. Please have a read of below article.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=51724

Don`t be an apologist for mullahs as they are indefensible. There is difference in the perspectives of a visitor, as you were, and a person who resides in the Islamic Republic. Ask any working women or a university student how safe and independent they feel out in public in Islamabad, Lahore or Karachi. It is a daily journey full of sexual and religious harassment, besides being a trip full of guilt, when they go to work or studies.

I agree with commentators that it will get worse before things could be improved. A civil war is staring us, unless we meekly decide to hand it all over to the Taliban without fighting. Such a scenario will sent a chill in the spine of whole world - a nuclear weapon state with a large (although an indiscipline and corrupt military) being ruled by an irrational fanatic lot.

Only solution is to completely eliminate religion from public life and secular affairs.

I think this article is a very fair analysis of `what is wrong with pakistan`.

Just when the civilized world figured out that religion as an institution has outrun its utility and pushing it any further only results in harms for nations, pakistan was born out of this born again romanticism with religion, and that too most literal one the world has seen. I think it is a sheer badluck with us pakistans and this `serious of unfortunate` events triggered and our and forthcoming generations will be there to reap the `rewards`.

I couldn`t agree more with the argument that it was the birth of pakistan which created a safe heaven for all sorts of fundamentalism in the name of Islam. Later developments were only there to add feul to what was inevitably coming our way.

Re: # 29
And the French are despised by the English and vice versa. And Americans are despised by Canadians and Mexicans and Germans are despised by everyone in the Europe. Neighbors hating neighbors is pretty much par for the course in the world. Nothing to get excited about.

Oh.. ad Indians and Afghans despising Pakistanis to above list.

Re: # 20

Zeenajee,

[I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote conservative areas I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits....Not even a single person criticized...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed]

Really????

Below one from your compatriot

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag20.htm

Re: # 14

Mr. Gill,

Thanks for your feedback. The reason I did not focus much on Jamia Hafsa incident is that, first, a lot has been said and written about it already and, second, this is by no means a unique incident. The only thing unique about it is that it happened in Islamabad. Other parts of the country like NWFP and tribal belt are experiencing this phenemenon on regular basis.

There is a lot of blame to go all around for the situation. A major part of the problem are the elements within the so-called ``sensitive`` agencies in Pakistan. They were given the task to handle Mujahideen during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan but instead of just handling, they got married to the Jihadi ideology and now are a major scare for anyone who wants to fix things.

Regards,

Rafi

Re: # 23. okhla99

You are posing to be too innocent to believe a simpleton like Rahul Gandhi. Now, some over-smart Chammach might have reminded him about the greatness of his grandmother and he started blowing it out foolishly in the hope of gaining some more votes or at least a few extra clappings, in the process affording Pakis another pretext to malign India for their troubles.

Second para of your post reflects again the same mindset narrated succinctly in the article as well as in my posts. As I have also said it is very unfortunate that this mindset is impossible to change now. The poison has penetrated deep into the nerve centers of all Pakis. Sadly, that will implode in the very near future and it will be a challenge for India to ward off the spillover.

Samar

Re: # 21



<<< Such statements only take me back to the Indian Foreign Office of the 1980s and b4 when they would shout from the rooftop that imperialist powers (read USA) are trying to destabilise India as India ( a fourth rate, illiterate poor nation then at best, a poor third rate nation now at best) was the bulwark for the Third World. >>>

Dear Majumdar Sahib,

The world today is diffferent from 1980s and your notions are completely outdated. Kindly visit some foreign policy websites pertaining to US foreign policy, Georgetown, thinktanks, state department etc. Perhaps you are not aware of the War on Terror, the changing strategics, the oil scenario. You also appear to have completely ignored the fact that the bipolar world order of the 80s has yielded to the unipolar world of today. Hence the concepts from the 80s cannot be applied to situations today. Remain firmly in 2007 aand , if possible, look forward to 2010. Going back to the 1980s will not help at all.

Kindly reconsider your position in view of the greatly altered scenario. Regards.

#27 Arjun

Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.

Or continue to keep your head buried in the sand....

Re: # 20

Mdm Zeena,

Some factual errors posted by you:

{It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off.}

Taliban only came into being post USSR exit (1988) from Afghanistan and they were created by the ISI to impose a Pak friendly Afghan Govt. Most of these Talibs had nothing to do with the Afghan jihad fought against the Ruskies.

{Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West}

Qazi Husssein, Noorani (Late) both had their boys sent abroad (USA) for education. Many other Mullah children are studying in western universities and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that idea, I wonder why you think that is bad given your chosen place of residence is also the land of satan (USA).

{And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib}

Bibi, gora ko tho gay huwe bhoth zamana hogia, please come out of this time warp, why blame everything on the poor gora? Somethings are peculiar to each region, Pakistan is blessed with five rivers and the famous Indus river thus the dominance of agrarian societies. To say these were the creation of gora is giving the gora too much credit and exposes a flawed view of history and geography.

{It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off........... }

Incorrect, please refer to the above correction.

{Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............}

Correct word is Later, not Latter.

Al Qaeda objective was OIL??????? Now that is a new one for all, please do elaborate where do we have oil in that godforsaken place called Afghanistan. And the Pak army (ISI) did not need any help from anyone in creating the Taliban, except for Saudi funding and baptization (bastardization).

Battle is for the hearts and minds of Pakistani people, for thirty years they have been fed lies and false stories of impending Islamic glory, fall of the Kaafirs and rise of the Islamic brotherhood. The state of Pakistan has been actively pursueing a policy of promoting this ideology that served their political interest but now has to reconsider given the changed political situation. Problem here lies as the writer has tried to explain in state policies that can lead to increased talibanization and to curb such trends state has to sponsor liberal policies that discourage overt religious values, promotes a fair and equitable society for all of its citizens irrespective of their religious or ethnic backgrounds. Thus the criticism of Ordinance resolution of Liaqat Ali Khan that basically was the first step backward in our struggle for a FREE state.

#22 by nycoolest on April 18, 2007 7:39am PT

Indians aren`t looking for a constructive discussion to convince pakis...you can`t convince a pig that mud is icky...islamic jihad and pakiland are like mud and a pig..

about proving terrorism, pray tell, why are the Lashkar-e-Toiba banned by the US...which forced the land of the pure to ban them...didn`t you tell us they were indigenous kashmiri freedom fighters..

Everytime you walk through a western airport, you pakis realize that the world doesn`t buy your line and treats you as potential terrorists or terrorist supporters...which is why pakis were first in line to be fingerprinted...

#24 by okhla99 on April 18, 2007 7:55am PT


Oh really...You`ve been accused, with good reason, of supporting terrorists by afghanistan, india and iran...

Re: # 20
Zeena,

You wrote a long one and I can’t possibly address all your points right now but you are more than welcome to continue this discussion with me later. Let me give you my thoughts on few of your points

You wrote: “Get rid of religion and Pakistan will be a heaven to live with all the progress possible......this is hilarious....”

You are right, it is hilarious. But why are you mentioning that? Did I say that? There is a difference between getting rid of religion and getting religion out of law-making process.

You wrote: “It appears that he is an example of an individual going out of his way to demonize Islam.”

I read the article again to see where did I demonize Islam but couldn’t find anything. Please point out which portion of the article you are talking about.

You wrote:”If the author of this article honestly believes that a rogue group of a few hundreds so called Talibans is going to be able to convert this country of millions to Shiara law via Talibanization and terrorist attacks, he lives in a fantasy world within his own mind, the Fox News Channel and CNN........LOL”


It was a group of few hundreds who started the process of Talibanization in Afghanistan. Having said that, I think you missed the point I tried to make in the beginning of the article. I don’t think that kind of Talibanization is likely in Pakistan. A different flavor, a legislative Talibanization, where the power to dictate the legislation lies outside the parliament is what Pakistan is suffering from. Let’s say someone proposes a law in national assembly to ban polygamy. What do you think would be the biggest objection raised against such a proposal? If the biggest objection would NOT be that the proposed law is against Islam, the entire premise of my article is wrong.

To address another point you made repeatedly in your post, please read the clause 2 of a declaration on a Pakistan Passport application that every Muslim has to sign to get a passport. Following is the clause.

“I do not recognize any person who claims to be a prophet in any sense of the word or of any description whatsoever after Muhammad (peace be upon him) or recognize such a claimant as prophet or a religious reformer as a Muslim”

The first part of that clause is to rule Ahmedies out of getting a “Muslim” passport and the later, the bit about “reformer``, is to stop Lahories (an offshoot of Ahmedies) to be qualified as Muslims. One can argue a lot about the utility of this clause but for the sake of argument, let’s say it’s fine. Here comes the third clause following the above one.

“I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be an impostor nabi and also consider his followers whether belonging to Lahori or Qadiani group to be Non-Muslims.”

There is no need for the third clause in the presence of the second. The second clause is self sufficient for the purpose. The only reason for the third clause is to deliberately insult Ahmedies by calling their prophet an impostor. Mind you, we are talking about Pakistan where the law books prescribe death penalty to anyone insulting the Muslim prophet. Some time back, Musharraf made a lot of fuss to get this declaration out by removing the religion column from the passport. He made a lot of statements in the media and they all made sense. What happened? Was he successful getting the column and this declaration out? The answer is, no. And you tell me that there is no influence of Mullahs in Pakistan?

Re: # 18
Harish Bhai,

Accept the fact that most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring states.

With this ground reality kindly read my mail again.

Re: # 19

Now that is surely a load of crap.
If India wants a stable and strong Pakistan then why would Gandhi admit Indian complicity in breaking up Pakistan? Why would India sneak up like thieves and occupy territory in Siachen?

India SHOULD want a stable and prosperous Pakistan (and all its other neighbours). However most Indians and India as a country are hated and despised by all neighbouring nations.

Analyse the above slowly before coming up with a knee-jerk response.

Re: # 18

What you think of recent claim of cross breed Italian Indian Rahul Gandhi about Gandhis breaking Pakistan into two? Isn’t it a confession from an important personality of Indian that Indians never accepted Pakistan and always try to sabotage it just as you claim Pakistan do to India.

Indians support of 1971 insurgency of East Pakistan is also a well documented fact.

If we accept your allegations that Pakistan has run the insurgencies of Kashmir, Khalistan and do bombings in India, then it`s a complete failure to the Indian secret services and paramilitary forces that Pakistan is bringing harm to them since past 60 years and they cant even come up with a solid fact sheet to be produce in International courts build for these kind of disputes. I suggest it is time to ask question to your own government that what are the measures they have taken to take the people to international courts who been plotting against Indians as they always blame. If Pakistan is involved, wouldn’t we all want to see their responsible to be in courts for many killings on India? It does need solid proofs though and if they are; should be produced. Blaming Pakistan in internal failures and fuckups is not a constructive solution Harish Bahi :) .

I can`t say or claiming here that Pakistan has a clean record, all I am trying to deliver is Indians are no angel either. It is shameful how many innocents get killed in Punjabi areas by Indra in 1984 and current day Kashmir by Indian forces.