Talibanization of Pakistan

Okhla sahib,


(Therefore, the next step would be balkanization of the region. Whether Kurdistan becomes independent first or Balochistan is what remains to be seen. The order is immaterial. What matters is that there is an order in the chaos. The US is slowly and surely inching towards its long term goals. Increasing fundamentalism in Pakistan would only provide a basis(excuse) to attack Pakistan a few months after Musharraf is gone. )

Such statements only take me back to the Indian Foreign Office of the 1980s and b4 when they would shout from the rooftop that imperialist powers (read USA) are trying to destabilise India as India ( a fourth rate, illiterate poor nation then at best, a poor third rate nation now at best) was the bulwark for the Third World.

This is ridiculous. USA does not care two hoots about Pakistan and has no intention to attack it. Too many people, a few nukes and no (much at least) oil. It is simply not worth the bother. Probably dont care much more about India either except of course that it has too many more people, the seat of its company`s backoffices and a much needed source for IT manpower.

Rest assured. No one, least of all USA, is interested in attacking Pakistan. If anything, just bother about Pakistan`s inability to provide its people with decent governance and human rights.

Regards

I find this article as dumb as anything could be. This article reminds me of some mumbo jumbo idiocy with no sense, repeating every line in a same circle over and over again, very dull perspective with no insight.Not even a good read. Same thing over and over again, Islam this , Islam that, Taliban this.....Pakistanis are Talibanized.....LOL.

Pakistan is Talibanized and that is why Pakistan is #1 in corruption....LOL
All Pakistani problems are just b/c of religion. Get rid of religion and Pakistan will be a heaven to live with all the progress possible......this is hilarious....

Mullahs have had been only 5% in the politics, 85% are feudals and 10% urbans............
Why to blame Mullahs and then religion for everything?

Mullahs are not in the main stream, feudals are.
80% Pakistani population is rural and poor , they are under the clutches of feudals.
They are still deprived of the basic needs, health care, education, job opportunities and even they do not know , if, they are humans or not?

They and their needs are being deliberately ignored by the rest of the Pakistani people, as if they have no right to be called Pakistanis.

They do not care, if, Mullahs rule or if feudals rule, all they care is , how to make ends meet?

And the biggest fact is feudals and governance always use few mullahs just to shine their own corrupt politics and when they are done using them, they always cornered them...............

Suppose, we gather all 5% mullahs and send them to Jail for few years.....

Will this eradicate corruption in Pakistan? No
Will this give basic needs to 80% poor Pakistanis who live in rural areas? No
Will this make Pakistan the developed country? No

There is No issue about religion, to raise this issue is to divert the attention from major issues which are absolutely NOT created by Mullahs......

Feudals life styles are western , they and their kids get their education from West.....but, they do not apply the same rule over their slaves.......mean 80% poor and oppressed Pakistanis who are living in rural areas.
They have their own small states and they do not wish to change the mind sets of their people, b/c if they do then they won`t be feudals anymore......

And mind it all these feudals are the creation of Gora sahib.................

It is just like Talibans are the creation of Gora sahib as well, they used Talibans are their soldiers in the war against USSR and then kicked them off...........

Latter, The same Talibans when were left alone by gora sahib, they were hijacked by Al-Qaida for their own motives...........and their only motive was (OIL)...............
They used religion as their basis just to make fool of Talibans.....Talibans were Afghanis who were created by American Army with the help of Pakistan.............

So, just think about all this .......................

Hafsa sisters were sincere in their brave action, but, then their cause was manipulated by Lal Masjid Mullahs.............everyone is using someone and I am sure these Lal Masjid Mullahs were the puppets of our own corrupt politicians............and also current army to divert the real issues in Pakistan..........

And this is the sad part , but, very true....truth is bitter, but we have to face that......
I am proud to be Muslim and Pakistani. There is nothing wrong to be a Muslim as long as you do not impose your extremist views on others.
As long as Pakistani society is, I do not see so much Mullah`s influence over there. Lately, I have been to Pakistan and I was in Islamabad, Lahore, and in some very remote conservative areas, honestly I was wearing Jeans, pants and track suits........Not even a single person criticized...rather, majority of those villagers commented me with excellent comments about the way I was dressed...

In Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Lahore I was feeling as much free as anyone could be in America. No body told me to wear burqa, cover head or do not watch movies....

To be honest with you, I felt more freedom in most of the aspects than USA.


I believe religion in Pakistan is continually used and abused for political advantage.Beyond that it was misused as justification to call All Pakistanis Talibanized.
All humans have the ability to think for themselves yet people are being led to believe that all Pakistanis are Talibanized and they are radical and violent. People are being told that only Muslims are terrorists. If you believe such notions it will affect your view on politics, push your interests in the direction of national security, and ultimately effect how you live your daily lives.............just think about it.

It is also clear to me that there is some intolerant groups of people who are energetically promoting Islamophobic stance.How about not exploiting economically unstable poor 80% of Pakistanis who live in rural areas for our own benefits like Some super powers of this world always do with third world countries.
I believe economics is the main root cause of all the un stability in Pakistan. Stable economies and low poverty cuts off any radicalism off the edge and that`s the biggest fact.

I will refuse this article`s STANCE b/c this article is either by a naive mind or an extremist mind set?
The only solution to the problems of Pakistan is through education and educated mind sets.
By that what I mean is, if, this article is intolerant of Islam and Muslims, then this article is exactly as intolerant as the Mullahs are. And that`s the exact reason I view this article as a stance in fact legitimate talibanized Jihad against average Pakistani Muslims who have got nothing to do with Talibanization..........

I am not condemning the views of this writer here, this writer has every right to promote any view he sees fit to his own mind set. He has his own freedom of expression, only , if he would have used it with more responsibility. What I see in this whole article is a propaganda against Pakistan and Pakistani Muslims while NOT focusing on real issues which are the main reason Pakistan is still miserable.......Just think about it. I still would like to know why this article was written? It appears that he is an example of an individual going out of his way to demonize Islam and he is probably a part of an intolerant group that majority of us around the here see as the cause behind the tension between Pakistani Muslims and Indians............Just think about it....

Such intolerant groups on chowk are prolly more persuasive.............
The only way to guard yourselves from these intolerant groups is to indiscriminately stand firm against intolerance in all forms and from all sides.............
I guess all of you there know poverty and fanaticism goes hand in hand. Humiliation which is going on in 80% of Pakistani population ( in rural areas), these people feel humiliated with low self esteem and they are easy preys for those that seek followers in any form of radicalism ( in the form of feudalism/mullah ism/liberal extremism)..............What I observed myself is that majority Pakistanis have a huge``victim mentality``, they strongly believe they are being oppressed, humiliated and victims by feudals/governance and beaurocrates and if, they won`t be treated right, they are much more willing to commit atrocities..............Why? Just think about it.

Is this Talibanization that is leading Pakistan towards destruction? NO.....Not even a single Pakistani blamed Mullahs for their zillions of problems......Just think about it.

I believe we need to realize the economic deprivation is the main issue for the main stream poor and oppressed Pakistanis................Not the religion.

I also think that this article has underestimated the deep rooted effects of diplomacy and political rhetorics.Also I believe there is no such thing as bad religion, just bad people......................
``The Islamic religion itself is the source of the hate towards the East. And we ``hate`` the Muslims because they oppress women and others and are against our way of life and are trying to destroy it.``
The vast Majority of Muslims are quiet and hardworking people. This article has done a great job of humiliating Pakistani Muslims based on lies, supporting democracy only when it suits you kind of attitude, propping up very few inactive Mullahs ways as to label them to all Pakistan`s ways........like turning a blind eye to the real problems of Majority poor and oppressed pakistanis( who live in rural areas). Its like all people bad or all people good........LOL( unbelievable!)
Who are the real culprits for causing all the problems in Pakistan? Just think about it.

Today`s world problems are not caused by Islam or Talibans, they are caused by OIL and it`s control and dominance between two sets of groups.........
And same thing is happening in Pakistan, there is no thing as Talibanization or Mullah ism........the actual reason is poverty.......poor becoming more poor and rich becoming richer...................tsk, tsk, tsk.....
And we`re still pretending that actual cause is Talibanization.................just immature thoughts....

No, religions do not fail us, we( the humans) fail our religions``. Bad people are using religion ( which is the most beautiful in human history, to teach us humanity) or sometimes different ideologies to mobilize people against their self made enemies.......And this is exactly what this article is all about.......Just think about it.

If the author of this article honestly believes that a rogue group of a few hundreds so called Talibans is going to be able to convert this country of millions to Shiara law via Talibanization and terrorist attacks, he lives in a fantasy world within his own mind, the Fox News Channel and CNN........LOL

Anyone who takes a closer look at the situation in Pakistan can plainly see that political differences and money interests are the main cause of the conflict and the religion is merely the rallying cry...........just think about it. People like Osama Bin Laden would not even be known today had Goras not supported what would become Al-Qaida to fight the USSR in Afghanistan. Talibans would not even existed today in Afghanistan had Goras not supported and funded them to fight against USSR as their own soldiers.....Just think about it.
There is no such thing as Talibanization of Pakistan........and Majority Pakistanis can hardly even comprehend this concept,as this idea exists only in few bigoted minds...........who just wish to create havoc....and who are not sincere with the solution of main Pakistani problems and who are giving a blind eye to poverty and miseries for Majority of Pakistanis by labeling everything as Talibanization............Just think about it. This idea is borrowed by western media only........
Where as the fact is majority poor Pakistanis are left without even a hope of a future life or any opportunity........just think about it.

What if religion did not exist would Pakistan be the developed country? No , absolutely NOT. Would people not been at war? Would there be no issues in Pakistan? Would there be scamming faith healers...........and much much more would`s be.............

Suppose, if mullahs would have been dead, would 80% poor Pakistani people( living in rural areas) be comfortably living with all their needs being met decently.......................and would they be progressed?

Sometimes, religion can cause little bit of friction among certain groups of people, but, the motivations of finance and power are very clearly visible under the surface. Mullahs are merely tools which are being misused........................just think about it.

Any average Pakistani can show you the mirror like above..............just think about

Re: # 17, okhla99,

I don`t agree with this. India is (and had always been) concerned about what is going on inside Pak and does what it thinks fit to derail the process of Paki disintegration till that does not affect it`s own security. The opinion in India is that only democracy, secularism and freedom of thought can save Pak. But for last 60 years what has happened in Pak is slow and continuous drifting away from these ideals and consequent distancing itself from India. Seeds of this mess were sown at the time of partition itself as is the theme of this article. These happenings were never been of India`s making, so what can India do other than to show anger, rant, scold, ridicule and sometimes, gloat. It finds itself helpless.

I`m afraid, there is no way out for Pak now. They are now in the complete grip of USA and the noose is tightening. Even if they appear to come out of USA camp, as looks likely at present, they can not free themselves from the whole plot. There is Taliban to tackle with and subsequent civil-war like situation to face.

Samar

#17 by okhla99

India gloats in every misfortune that befalls Pakistan. Chowk Indians are rabidly anti-Pakistan, the country to which they are geographically, socially, ethnically and even culturally , the closest.

India would give a rat`s ass to Pakistan and its fortunes/misfortunes if it stopped its policy of fanning trouble inside India. The Khalistan and Kashmir insurgencies, the Kargil incursions, and the periodic terrorist attacks inside India all point to Pakistan`s mal-intent. Cut that out and Indians wouldn`t care what Pakistan is up to.

#16

Well said. Trouble for Pakistan means trouble for India. To this extent I agree with you.

But how many Indians realise this. India gloats in every misfortune that befalls Pakistan. Chowk Indians are rabidly anti-Pakistan, the country to which they are geographically, socially, ethnically and even culturally , the closest.

Re: # 15, okhla99,

Very correct. Possibilities for India are not too bright either. As soon as Pak drifts away from USA and consequently disintegrates India will be in a long term trouble. So a fairly strong and progressive Pak is India`s ticket to prosperity and it should fight even USA for Pak. But who will induce Pak to see reason and stop nonsense with India.

Samar

Percieved (and to some extent, actual) Talibanization of islamic countries in this region is all part of a grand strategy of the USA to control the oil resources of the region. Countries would be targetted one by one.

Each milestone is but one step forward in the eminently understandable long term US plan for the region -- Control over the oil resources. And this can, in the opinion of the think tank, be easily achieved by balkanisation of the Iran-Iraq-Pakistan region. Small states with oil resources can be ``managed`` effectively (the Kuwait model). Other small & medium states without any significant oil resources can surely be relied upon to maintain a hostile environment with constant mini wars amongst themselves which threaten to spill over into and engulf the ``oil holders`` which would be ``duly protected`` by the US and its stooges Pakistan(definitely) , India(may be). For a price.

Therefore, the next step would be balkanization of the region. Whether Kurdistan becomes independent first or Balochistan is what remains to be seen. The order is immaterial. What matters is that there is an order in the chaos. The US is slowly and surely inching towards its long term goals. Increasing fundamentalism in Pakistan would only provide a basis(excuse) to attack Pakistan a few months after Musharraf is gone. All the better if the fundamentalists are seen to have a hand in Mushy`s exit.

The writing on the wall is slowly becoming clearer as the drama unfolds.

Mr. Aamer’s article is timely and thought provoking although he hasn’t made a very strong case against the recent high-handedness of the Lal Masjid’s maulanas. I am not really very knowledgeable about the Pakistani politics but if what the writer has written in the following is true, it shows the spinelessness of the law makers in Pakistan.

“After such proclamation, the role of the chosen representatives of people was doomed to become irrelevant and so it did. This was quite evident last year when the government of Pakistan tried to pass Women Protection Bill thru the parliament. Overwhelming part of the debate in parliament and in the media that preceded the passage of the bill revolved not around whether the bill actually protected the women or not but whether it was consistent with Islam or not. The government, eventually, had to go to a select committee of Ulema, who were not elected by the people of Pakistan, to get the certificate of compliance before passing the bill.”

By giving a free hand to the maulanas, the government invited the lawlessness of these Khudai Faujdars recently in Islamabad. If it is allowed to continue longer, it will be a clear-cut invitation to civil war. When religion is introduced in statecraft, there will inevitably be chaos and confusion.

Thanks Aamer for contributing your valuable piece.

Mohammad Gill

Liaqat Ali Khan was a mediocre politician with little vision or political backbone to stand for what is right. He was a an opportunists who had lived his entire political life under long shadows of Jinnah that he may have resented, thus his desperate bid to find a place in Pak politics.

Democracy does not need religion, what is needs is people willing to tolerate and respect differing opinions, virtues non-existent in any faith based ideologies.

Talibanization started only post Saudization of Pakistan, to say it started with objective resolution is incorrect and serves to gloss over Pak state rental policies.

Re: # 11

...and the whole world would embrace democracy and ...ISLAM.

Aameen

Samar

Hope so, Khurram. ``Islamic democracy`` is a wonderful concept. It came naturally to all great social thinkers such as Iqbal, Jinnah, and Zulfie Bhutto. It will also appeal enormously to all Modernist Muslims who, like the rest, Muslims and nonMuslims, have to struggle with the decidedly flawed construct of democracy. Once Islamic democracy is put in place, it will be a breakthrough.

What you are seeing is the working out of unresolved issues in the concept of ``Islamic democracy`` .

Re: # 4
I don’t presume that Musharraf is against Mullahs on any principle. I was talking about the time he emerged on the scene as “Chief Executive” of Pakistan. He tried to establish his anti-Mullah credentials at that time and dropped the effort soon when he realized the power of Mullahs. As for using Mullahs to gain legitimacy, Musharraf is not unique in that regard. Every ruler of Pakistan has flirted with religious folks to tap into their influence. Even someone like ZA Bhutto who seemingly had secular tendencies was guilty of appeasing Mullahs.

Musharraf was given the task, which he accepted, to curtail the influence of religious organizations by USA. Either he hasn’t done anything about that or he has failed. A lot of other factors went against Musharraf as well in this regard. For instance, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were used by Mullahs to fuel the religious fervor of masses. Whatever the case and the causes, the outcome is that religious establishment enjoys the kind of influence in Pakistan today that is quite unprecedented. The point I am trying to make in my article is that the provision of necessary ingredients for Talibanization of Pakistan are not a recent phenomenon. Religious establishment’s dominance was always on cards since the birth of Pakistan.

A news item

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007 04 17 story_17-4-2007_pg13_1

There is no doubt that there is a very strong Military-Mullah-Alliance but that is not the complete picture. One side of the picture is that there is a corrupt-to-the-core ruling class who inherited power from the British colonial powers. Initially, it was mostly feudal lords of Muslim league but over the decades this class has diversified itself. It controls Pakistan thru a culture of forced corruption and malaise. Now it is not a class but a mindset; a mindset that they inherited from their colonial masters where general populace is nothing but subhumans who needs to be controlled and exploited throu corruption, coercion, and by force. While military provides muscle to this class, `sirkari` moulvis control masses using religion; bureaucrats help keep general populace under thumb through corruption, inefficiency and malaise; teachers help corrupt young minds and make them insensitive to corruption and immorality. Media is used as a very effective tool to weaken the family values and family structure. Police - less said the better. So on and so forth...

The other side of the picture is the general masses who are put in a strait jacket by the vices created by this corrupt ruling elite. Most of them are without education and live by the moral code that their faith has given them and taught to them by their ancestors. But the educated among this class looked at this situation and slowly created a class of people who are developing moral backbones to stand upto the tyranny and only now they are able to see it into the eyes. This phenomenon is called Talibanization; literally meaning the ``Edification`` of the society. Through this edification a larger number of subalterns are begining to become self aware and they are beggining to realize how they are being kept from their moral self as individual and as society and nation. Do not forget that it is this segment of society that laid down the lives of over 1 million of their own to make this country and nation. The trauma of migration, genocide, and economic handicap that followed pacified their fervor for a while; because they couldn`t afford to create another mayhem but it is unwise to think that they have lost their moral direction. Be aware that this moral dirction has been injected into the genes of generations over the course of 1000 years of history of Islam in subcontinent. Thinking that this moral compass can be snatched away by some corrupt renegades who just happen to have more guns, is ridiculous.

Unfortunately, the time for a magna carta like social contract between these masses and the corrupt ruling elite has passed. The Constitution of 1973 provided a wonderful opportunity for all parties to reach an amicable and just social contract but the corrupt ruling elite in their collosal arrogance has completely raped the Constitution thru military force, corruption, and lawlessness.

In the past 7 years, both, the corrupt ruling class and the Edifiers i.e. Talibans have realized the fact that ``GHee seedhee ungli se nahiN nikle ga``. No matter what happens, but there is only one outcome of the conflict and that outcome is the manifest destiny of Democratic Islamic Emirates of Pakistan. Inshallah. Those who laid down 1 million lives in this cause are now ready to sacrifice whatever it takes.

This article, the one on Taslima Nasreen, and any number of others should open the eyes of even human bats. A reader doesn`t have to be as smart as Ustaad Zeemax or Khamkhwa bhaijan to see through the gameplan. This site has become a tool in the relentless hands of Indians and Hindus intent upon demeaning and destroying everything Pakistan and Islam are and stand for.

If championing the cause of global shirk, Hinduism, and Ahmedism has become the official goal of Chowk, that should be clearly stated.